Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

[Silent Wayfarer]

Fair enough. I'm playing a KE HTR entry man so I was just wondering whether I should blow power points on kicking doors down rather than just firing a narrow full burst of shock lock rounds into it.

For incapacitating people, sound definitely seems like thr best element. Ignores all armor and if they take more damage than their WIL, they're incapacitated for 3 rounds. If I need to kill them, I just shoot them harder.

[Stahlseele]

if you want to go HULK SMASH! you basically have to build the character with that in mind in shadowrun, as otherwise the barrier level and armor and structure points and what not will not allow for such shenanigans . .
Bear who walks through Walls was a Troll Bear Shapeshifter who could basically dig though reinforced concrete at his walking rate, but that was entirely one trick pony min/max from the first buildpoint . .

[Longes]

if you want to go HULK SMASH! you basically have to build the character with that in mind in shadowrun, as otherwise the barrier level and armor and structure points and what not will not allow for such shenanigans . .
Bear who walks through Walls was a Troll Bear Shapeshifter who could basically dig though reinforced concrete at his walking rate, but that was entirely one trick pony min/max from the first buildpoint . .

Nah, being a wall breaker in SR4 is fairly easy. It's exactly the same build as any other unarmed adept, only you take Smashing Blow as one of your powers and make sure that you have a P damage Elemental Fist. Getting 8-10P damage unarmed isn't hard. Post attack roll you are looking at about 15DV. Doubled by the Smashing Blow, plus resistance reduction from the element, and this breaks through any barrier.

Of course, it is a one-trick pony build, but your trick is melee combat, so maybe you are okay with this. All melee builds in SR4 are one-trick ponies.

[kzt]

Fair enough. I'm playing a KE HTR entry man so I was just wondering whether I should blow power points on kicking doors down rather than just firing a narrow full burst of shock lock rounds into it.

Use explosives or a battering ram. The RAW for barriers and gunfire is absurd.

[Silent Wayfarer]

For destroying barriers, the DV is 2 per bullet. What if it's in a full auto burst?

Have battering rams ever been statted up?

I'm using heavy milspec armor + helmet (18/16 soak) and have a BOD of 5. Am I better off spending 10 BP to get BOD 6 or putting two Mobility enhancements into it (normally I wouldn't get an even point of BOD, but money and capacity slots are tight and I can't think of anything to spend those 10 BPs on.

[Stahlseele]

In SR3, Dikote helped with the Barrier Rating.
In SR4, i am not sure about battering ram, but i do remember a monofilament(no don't ask) chainsaw that halves barrier rating . .
Mobility is king of you do not plan on tanking anyway i guess?
But i, myself, would rather put points into something that can not be taken from my character easy. So i'd probably go for body, but i also enjoy being the tank so take that with a grain of salt . . if neither of those, why not put them into skill/contact or something else like that?

[Silent Wayfarer]

I ended up doing just that.

Next question: assuming Availability is not an issue, should I go for the Ares Desert Strike rifle (8P AP-3 SA 14(c), free extended barrel, 3.35k) or the Barrett Model 121 (9P AP-4 SA 14(c), free silencer, smartgun and bipod, 9k)?

I am a KE HTR sniper.

[Stahlseele]

Bigger Numbers are betterer. So the Barrett of course!
More RAW Damage AND one more Point of Armor ignored?
Yes please!

[virgil]

Vaguely depends on the dice bonuses you're getting as well. I don't have the book on me, but try to consider the most common time(s) you'll be using this firearm and look at how many more dice you'll have over the other. Range and recoil penalties that are negated count as bonus dice, and if you've got a 6 die advantage with the Ares, then go for that.

[Aryxbez]

but i do remember a monofilament(no don't ask) chainsaw that halves barrier rating . .

The monofilament Chainsaw is a conceptually cool weapon/tool, but seriously gets weaker almost every time I re-read it. However yes, its simply a 5P, couple AP, weapon that doubles to 10P against Barriers/Objects....So yeah A sufficiently buff Troll w/Combat Axe will do a better job.

Otherwise if you take Smashing Blow, don't forget can "power attack" as a free action to take -4 attack to give +4DV to your unarmed, so that would then double as well. Of course forget about doors, you can literally blow through walls at that point.

[RelentlessImp]

I ended up doing just that.

Next question: assuming Availability is not an issue, should I go for the Ares Desert Strike rifle (8P AP-3 SA 14(c), free extended barrel, 3.35k) or the Barrett Model 121 (9P AP-4 SA 14(c), free silencer, smartgun and bipod, 9k)?

I am a KE HTR sniper.

You take the Ares HVBR from War! despite it being a terrible book because Battle Rifles run on the god skill Automatics, have the firing capabilities of Assault Rifles and the range of Sporting Rifles (Short 100m, Medium 250m, Long 500m, Extreme 750m). With Image Magnification hardware/software, all ranges are Short anyways (page 150, SR4A) so long as you take a Simple Action first to Aim, which doesn't get the +1 bonus, and you can Aim then Fire in the same Combat Turn. So you have a weapon that can snipe with an Imaging Scope with Vision Magnification (or goggles, or cybereyes, or contacts) - which multiplies your Extreme range by 50, and turns it into short range, allowing you to snipe at 37,500 meters with no penalties - and, with a Firing Selection Change, Small Modification to Full Auto (Arsenal, page 151) can still hose down with Full Auto without having to swap weapons. Tack on your usual Recoil Comps and you can do it without penalty too.

Doing both you can Snipe with Full Auto because a Take Aim action lasts over multiple IPs and Combat Turns until you decide to fire or do something else (or the target moves, in the case of image magnification), so you can Take Aim in one pass/turn with a Simple action then in the next take a Complex to open up full auto at the extreme range of 37,500 meters.

Additionally, focusing your skills down to Automatics rather than spreading among gun skills gives you a weapon for every situation while freeing up Karma/BP. Silenced Machine Pistols for concealed work, SMGs for light work, and Assault Rifles/Battle Rifles for when you're going loud and heavy.

Edit: I just did some number-crunching. You can take the HVBR, add Gas Vent 3 and Sling and achieve 9 points of RC in addition to the Shock Pad and Stock the HVBR comes with, then Firing Selection Change, Small Mod (Full Auto) leaving you with 3 mod slots, which you can add a Barrel Extension to, giving you an Extreme range of 826 meters, extending out to 41,300 meters, or 25.66 miles, with no penalty for a full-auto snipe dealing 16P before net successes and soak rolls.


Edit 2: With the HVAR instead of the HVBR with the same mods, add Electronic Firing to get the RC back to 9, and an Extended Barrel for using up all the mod slots, and get an Extreme Range of 605 meters, for 30,250 Extreme Range made to Short, for 18.79 miles full auto snipes dealing 14P - slightly less, and doesn't use War! which is a sticking point for a lot of people.

[phlapjackage]

So you have a weapon that can snipe with an Imaging Scope with Vision Magnification (or goggles, or cybereyes, or contacts) - which multiplies your Extreme range by 50, and turns it into short range, allowing you to snipe at 37,500 meters with no penalties...

Is this something from War? I don't remember any piece of gear that multiplies Extreme range by 50, but then again, I haven't read that book. Seems way beyond overpowered and into just-plain-dumb territory...

[RelentlessImp]

So you have a weapon that can snipe with an Imaging Scope with Vision Magnification (or goggles, or cybereyes, or contacts) - which multiplies your Extreme range by 50, and turns it into short range, allowing you to snipe at 37,500 meters with no penalties...

Is this something from War? I don't remember any piece of gear that multiplies Extreme range by 50, but then again, I haven't read that book. Seems way beyond overpowered and into just-plain-dumb territory...

Vision Magnification, SR4A page 333, which magnifies vision by 50. Page 150 gives us this gem:

Attacker using Image Magnification
Image magnification equipment allows the character to “zoom in” on
the target, reducing the Range category to Short, and thus eliminating any range modifiers. The character must take a Take Aim action
(p. 148) to “lock onto” the target (the Take Aim does not apply a +1
aiming bonus for this purpose, unless additional Take Aim actions are
made). As long as the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions. Image
magnification can be used in conjunction with a laser sight or smartlinked weapon (but not both)

By a strict reading, it works that way, because the range category determines if you can fire at something. By a more sensible reading, it only functions within the weapon's effective range. The latter is likely the only reading anyone will allow, if only because the curvature of the earth makes anything else ridiculous.

[phlapjackage]

So you have a weapon that can snipe with an Imaging Scope with Vision Magnification (or goggles, or cybereyes, or contacts) - which multiplies your Extreme range by 50, and turns it into short range, allowing you to snipe at 37,500 meters with no penalties...

Is this something from War? I don't remember any piece of gear that multiplies Extreme range by 50, but then again, I haven't read that book. Seems way beyond overpowered and into just-plain-dumb territory...

Vision Magnification, SR4A page 333, which magnifies vision by 50. Page 150 gives us this gem:

Attacker using Image Magnification
Image magnification equipment allows the character to “zoom in” on
the target, reducing the Range category to Short, and thus eliminating any range modifiers. The character must take a Take Aim action
(p. 148) to “lock onto” the target (the Take Aim does not apply a +1
aiming bonus for this purpose, unless additional Take Aim actions are
made). As long as the target and attacker do not move, the attacker
remains locked on and may continue to get the image magnification
bonus on subsequent actions without further Take Aim actions. Image
magnification can be used in conjunction with a laser sight or smartlinked weapon (but not both)

By a strict reading, it works that way, because the range category determines if you can fire at something. By a more sensible reading, it only functions within the weapon's effective range. The latter is likely the only reading anyone will allow, if only because the curvature of the earth makes anything else ridiculous.

Am I missing some subtley here? Because on the surface, this is one of the dumbest rules interpretations I've seen, and the whole "strict reading" thing looks like baloney. Range category is never altered according to any of the given text (except to move any Range category->short). Vision is altered on page 333 (x50). The interaction of the two (vision + range category) is what's discussed on page 150.

[RelentlessImp]

Am I missing some subtley here? Because on the surface, this is one of the dumbest rules interpretations I've seen, and the whole "strict reading" thing looks like baloney. Range category is never altered according to any of the given text (except to move any Range category->short). Vision is altered on page 333 (x50). The interaction of the two (vision + range category) is what's discussed on page 150.

It's just plain dumb territory, yeah. It's the bolded bit that gives rise to the dumb interpretation, on the basis that "Range Category becomes short" overrides the fact that it's beyond the actual range of the weapon. Sorry, I think I'm still in the "Throw this at dumb people and watch them eat it up" mentality that comes from interacting with people that play Pathfailure and say Fighters are good, of which I've had to do too much interacting with lately. I really need to get rid of that.

[Longes]

So there is the whole campaign for the rights of ghouls. How socially integrated are the other HMHVV victims? Do Loup Garou get shot on sight? Are Nosferatu required to wear a black ribbon on the sleeve?

[virgil]

Are there any drugs that force mundanes to astrally project, or even just become dual-natured? Would it be a bad idea to introduce something akin to K-10, but for mental stats (good for hackers)?

[Blade]

The Flipside/Tempo, the drug that's the "Ghost Cartels" campaign is about, forces mundanes to quickly flip in and out the astral plane, and gives a few bonuses as well.

If I remember correctly, there are some drugs that boost mental stats in Arsenal as well.

[pragma]

Shade, from Arsenal, is a magical compound that forces users to astrally project. I thought there was a street drug that did the same (pre Ghost Cartels) but I haven't found it.

[silva]

Deepweed forces magically active users to astrally percept (not project).

[virgil]

If I remember correctly, there are some drugs that boost mental stats in Arsenal as well.

Oh, there are, but they're pretty limited in scope. A mental version of the Blood of Kali would make for some rather cheap yet potent hackers. While magicians would also be pretty potent, they're a little too rare for corps to make disposable...though I suppose if you cut it with Shade, you can make some rather interesting astral cannon fodder.

[Longes]

If I remember correctly, there are some drugs that boost mental stats in Arsenal as well.

Oh, there are, but they're pretty limited in scope. A mental version of the Blood of Kali would make for some rather cheap yet potent hackers.

It won't. The only attribute hackers give even the smallest of fucks about is Intuition, for Initiative. Logic doesn't factor into hacking at all - it's always [Skill] (usually Hacking) + Program Rating.

[virgil]

If I remember correctly, there are some drugs that boost mental stats in Arsenal as well.

Oh, there are, but they're pretty limited in scope. A mental version of the Blood of Kali would make for some rather cheap yet potent hackers.

It won't. The only attribute hackers give even the smallest of fucks about is Intuition, for Initiative. Logic doesn't factor into hacking at all - it's always [Skill] (usually Hacking) + Program Rating.

My apologies for the lack of context. I use Ends of the Matrix, where Logic is a significant factor in skill use.

[Stahlseele]

So there is the whole campaign for the rights of ghouls. How socially integrated are the other HMHVV victims? Do Loup Garou get shot on sight? Are Nosferatu required to wear a black ribbon on the sleeve?

As far as i remember, not many people even KNOW let alone CARE about the different expressions of the HMHVV . .
Ghouls only get special treatment because they are that numerous.
Early in SR History, i think they actually were considered a completely separate race before the whole VV rehash/retcon.
Nosferatu as far as i remember are mostly highly intelligent and functional in society. They can hide their affliction quite well, seeing how they usually also get hermetic magic with their fangs.
Just how Wendigo get to be shamans.

[silva]

If I remember correctly, there are some drugs that boost mental stats in Arsenal as well.

Oh, there are, but they're pretty limited in scope. A mental version of the Blood of Kali would make for some rather cheap yet potent hackers.

It won't. The only attribute hackers give even the smallest of fucks about is Intuition, for Initiative. Logic doesn't factor into hacking at all - it's always [Skill] (usually Hacking) + Program Rating.

Fortunately, 5e corrected this issue. Now its a unified Atrib + Skill [gear limit]. Programs don't have ratings anymore, instead giving bonuses or allowing effects.