Shadowrun 4e newbie questions

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:22 pm

Technically all mana illusions should do that, as you are not actually creating an effect using magic but telling the mind directly that a certain affect is existing.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:34 pm

So if they fail to resist the illusion, it will mess with their assenssing tests? Can a dual-natured caster use a spell that is both mana and physical?

EDIT (moar questions): Are there, or can there be, focuses that only boost specific spells? If you know a limited touch spell, can you use the fetish for touching your target; an example being a sword, for the reach bonus, to cast Punch? Related to the sword example, can a weapon focus you're bonded to be used to touch people for spell targeting?

For NPC mages, especially the more academic ones, how much time/study is expected to gain the karma to learn a spell? I would expect research wizards to know a metric butt-load of spells they had developed for testing, depending on the effort required.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Aug 22, 2014 9:50 pm

1.)
No. Magical effects are all EITHER Physical OR Mana. Never Both.
The whole world division thing. Yes, if you fail the resistance test, you should get from an assesing test for example:"That huge troll you were looking at has the aura of a tiny little mousey!"

2.)
Yes, there are such foci. Or at least there were in SR3. No idea if they still exist in SR4 actually, sorry, my bad <.< . .
But no, these do not work for giving Reach. Reach is physical. No, touch spells require the casters body to be in contact with the target. Nothing else.
People WERE rightfully arguing about using a cybernetic arm with the grapple hand that shoots out your hand connected to the rest of your body like a harpoon to be able to reach out and touch somebody over quite some distance on dumpshock when SR4 first dropped that stuff.

3.)
Why not just apply the rules a player character would use to the NPCs but have them be able to simply spend more time actually concentrating on that than a player character does?
If it is their actual job, they will be spending between 40 and 60 hours per week on that stuff actually, whereas player characters usually tend to be busy with other stuff . .
Oh, wait, you meant karma gained x.x . . seeing how there are to my knowledge no official money for karma or karma for money rules for SR4, this is a bit harder to do . . no idea off the top of my head, sorry.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 8:27 pm

What are the size limits on ignite? How much does an object's armor and body apply to resisting the damage?

EDIT: Are curses inherently nonviable unless you can make sure the victim can't get access to someone with Counterspelling?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Tue Sep 09, 2014 10:54 pm

Ignite means you set something on fire that's not meant to be on fire.
And if it burns and is not put out, the damage will only increase, never decrease.
Generally speaking, all elemental spells cut armor used to resist it by half.
There are some exceptions to this rule.
It's a magically started but then non magical fire, so everything you do to get rid of normal fire would also get rid of this. Ignite is a really useless spell aside from extremely specific circumstances . . because you can simply get a lighter for the same job. And in combat, you use grenades or flamethrowers instead to achieve the same goal much faster and easier.
So you don't even need somebody with counterspelling, if they did not change the spell so even if put out stuff will just start burning again and again . .

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 1:47 pm

Are there still humans that turn into trolls during adulthood?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 2:14 pm

edited to no, because i am dumb.

JesterZero · Post by **JesterZero** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 7:13 pm

Really? I thought adult expression for orks and trolls was a one-time deal in 2021, and the spontaneous expressions since then occurred at puberty?

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:07 pm

JesterZero wrote:Really? I thought adult expression for orks and trolls was a one-time deal in 2021, and the spontaneous expressions since then occurred at puberty?

During puberty was my understanding too. Was there ever an adult expression? I know there was for the Comet is '63, but I thought goblinization was birth or puberty only.

Otakusensei · Post by **Otakusensei** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 8:07 pm

JesterZero wrote:Really? I thought adult expression for orks and trolls was a one-time deal in 2021, and the spontaneous expressions since then occurred at puberty?

During puberty was my understanding too. Was there ever an adult expression? I know there was for the Comet is '63, but I thought goblinization was birth or puberty only.

JesterZero · Post by **JesterZero** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:10 pm

Comet of '63 was the whole SURGE debacle. They may have thrown a higher than normal rate of traditional goblinization into the mix as well, but the whole point of Surge was that it was extra weird, and so you got discount Ganesh and Groot instead of your more traditional metatypes.

I could have sworn that the initial expression for Orks and Trolls in 2021 cut across all demographics, and that only afterwards was there the relatively consistent options of either being born as an Ork/Troll, or expressing at puberty (as opposed to much younger or much older). That was supposedly one of the in-universe justifications for viewing Orks and Trolls as an underclass in a way that Elves and Dwarves never were: humanity's introduction to Elves and Dwarves was UGE, but their introduction to Orks and Trolls was Goblinization.

Regardless, if you want to be an Ork or Troll in Shadowrun now, you really have three "normal" options:

Be born as one when as least one parent is also an Ork or Troll
Be born as one when both parents are Human (UGE)
Be a human until puberty and then become an Ork or Troll (Goblinization)

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Sep 12, 2014 10:38 pm

Ah, ok, no, my mistake, i thought he meant during puberty x.x

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 9:39 pm

So the whole "Wired Gun" Smartgun deal allows someone to see through the gun, among aiming better. Doesn't this mean that anyone with it, pretty much has best cover possible at all times, and that gun fights reduced to guns out in the open shooting down cover in hopes of making enough space to actually hit the shooter? Which case, shouldn't one be able to "Blind Fire" with no penalty with those modifications?

OgreBattle · Post by **OgreBattle** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:33 pm

Is there a summary anywhere of the difference between 'early' and 'endgame' Shadowrun play?

Like do magic users and cyborgs change drastically as they get more points to build with?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Sun Sep 14, 2014 10:56 pm

@Aryxbez
Welcome to shadowrun, where such things are not actually explained.
SR3 had the Gun-Cam you could mount on your under/over receiver of your bang bang of choice and then hook that up in addition to the usual smartlink to use the gun for shooting around corners and stuff . . and even then there was, as far as i remember, never really anything spelled out for this in the rules either. There WAS a 90% cover modificator which added, i think, +3 to the enemies TN to hitting you while . . also . . adding soething like +2 to your own TN to hitting stuff . . which would have been negated by the -2 given to you by the smartlink i guess, so it'd come out as a +/- 0 but with you being harder to hit so yay?
In SR4 i don't remember seeing something like the gun-cam addon from SR3 times anywhere, and nowhere in the description of the smartlink does it say that such a functionality is actually included. It shows you how much ammo you have left, allows you to change firing modes, eject spent mags and activate stuff attached to your gun and shows you through some very arcande techno science where your shots will probably land because your gun is pointing somewhere along that way.
Keep in mind that in SR4 smartlink is actually a kind of eye-ware-addon to your eyes or a piece of software, whichever you prefer. For some reason.
In SR3 you still had dedicated processors for calculating windspeed, gravity, bullet drop due to gravity and also activating built in microscoping motors/gyroscopes to help you point the bang-end in a way that allows you to hit what you want . . but still did not have video feed, just some text/numbers overlay over your normal vision with a crosshair for effect.

This is Shadowtech, not Logitech.

edit: Well, you could argue that SR4 has something similar. If your enemy is dumb enough to broadcast something of himself into AR or let himself be tagged by something/someone, you can use that for shooting.

@OgreBattle
More points means the mage starts out stronger because he does not have to take the hit to attributes/skills anymore, and in game it means he has literally no ceiling in improving his magical power whereas the cyber guy is limited by money and much more important essence, which is a very finite ressource sadly and does not care much about karma for the most part . .

when you go jarhead cybro or zombie, that is not such an issue anymore, then you are really only limited by money. And you are technically not a legal player character anymore and also, technically, have only months left to be active. Alive you aren't anymore by that point anyway.

Blade · Post by **Blade** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 1:00 pm

virgil wrote:What are the size limits on ignite? How much does an object's armor and body apply to resisting the damage?

IIRC, Ignite against an object is resisted with Object Resistance, not Body/Armor. This means that the less technological an object, the easier it is to ignite. It's easier to ignite unpolluted spring water than highly processed kerosene.

Also, be careful that it's a Permanent spell, so you need a few seconds for the target to really ignite.

@Aryxbez: Yes, anyone with a smartgun should be posted behind cover with only his gun showing. But too few players think about it. In any case, shooting from cover gives a -1 modifier, and relying so much on the smartgun might not be the best for situational awareness.

@OgreBattle: In SR3, because of the karma pool, the difference between early and engame was enormous. Veteran runners could pretty much succeed at every ordinary rolls (with 200 karma, a human could have 20 rerolls per session, which was generally more than enough).

In SR4, the difference is much less. Mundane characters don't change that much. They can get a few more dice here and there, but nothing drastic. They can get new skills and cover a few more ground, but that's about it. Awakened characters have more options, and a few karma points can give them a lot. In my experience, adepts don't change that much. They get more powerful, but they often stay in the same field with the same skillset. Mages, however, will often change more. A new spell doesn't cost much, but opens up a whole new range of options to a spellcaster, and so do some of the metamagic options.

But technomancers are the more surprising characters. With enough karma, a technomancer can become a master of all trades, except magic.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:43 pm

Stahlseele wrote:@Aryxbez
Welcome to shadowrun, where such things are not actually explained.

I've actually been playing Shadowrun for probably close to 1-2yrs now? Though true enough there, Lore & rules disconnect is massive in this setting it seems.

n SR4 i don't remember seeing something like the gun-cam addon from SR3 times anywhere

SR4A pg 322, under the "Smartgun System", and it actually does include a small camera with the mod. "The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners without exposing oneself to return fire" is seriously one of its mentioned description/benefits. So it really does sound like Street Sams should be able to fire blindly without a penalty (5th edition mentions this, and I think has the penalty lessened by 1, and/or poor formatting intended that, but its actually the same penalty).

Lastly, I've never made a Rigger before, and the campaign I'm in is using Frank's Houserules + Ends of the Matrix. I know Arsenal is the best friend to make super awesome fighting robots, but how do you optimize for such a character? (They'll be Rigger/Face-Detective mix) I'm definitely thinking of abusing Drone/Vehicle rules to have a PMV man sized mech for the character, and I imagine Gunnery be best friend, just unsure how the rules mix from what I've gleaned at, and how they changed. Most of all, hoping to ensure this character is accessible, as it will be for a new player.

Aryxbez · Post by **Aryxbez** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 9:44 pm

Stahlseele wrote:@Aryxbez
Welcome to shadowrun, where such things are not actually explained.

I've actually been playing Shadowrun for probably close to 1-2yrs now? Though true enough there, Lore & rules disconnect is massive in this setting it seems.

n SR4 i don't remember seeing something like the gun-cam addon from SR3 times anywhere

SR4A pg 322, under the "Smartgun System", and it actually does include a small camera with the mod. "The camera allows for targeted shooting around corners without exposing oneself to return fire" is seriously one of its mentioned description/benefits. So it really does sound like Street Sams should be able to fire blindly without a penalty (5th edition mentions this, and I think has the penalty lessened by 1, and/or poor formatting intended that, but its actually the same penalty).

Lastly, I've never made a Rigger before, and the campaign I'm in is using Frank's Houserules + Ends of the Matrix. I know Arsenal is the best friend to make super awesome fighting robots, but how do you optimize for such a character? (They'll be Rigger/Face-Detective mix) I'm definitely thinking of abusing Drone/Vehicle rules to have a PMV man sized mech for the character, and I imagine Gunnery be best friend, just unsure how the rules mix from what I've gleaned at, and how they changed. Most of all, hoping to ensure this character is accessible, as it will be for a new player.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Mon Sep 15, 2014 10:47 pm

Optimizing?
Play an Elf. Done. Seriously.
Implanted Comlink to do your dronomancery.
Get one flying drone, kit it out for maximum stealth and slap the biggest single gun on it that you can fit into it and then just try and boost it's hitting stuff abilities. Everything outside will simply keel over dead all of a sudden as you start to mumble something to make it look like you are casting a spell with several holes appearing in it's body basically. A Floaty one, a blimb thingie with solar panels on top so it can stay up there indefinitely as well probably.
Then decide on how you want the character to be used INSIDE buildings and the such where your rod of god can't help you that much, if there are no skylights/windows around for it to fire through basically.

fly-spies loaded with explosives are such a dick move not many people actually think about it. Fly-Spies are fuck tiny small insect like drones that can attach themselves unseen to the back of the head of somebody if you kit them out for stealth as well and then you mumble a bit to make it look like you cast a spell and it goes boom and takes the head with it. Expensive but effective.
And don't forget that tiny invisible flying drones make perfect spies as well, as the name should tell you . .

Then there's the classic of the toy-tank. tracked drone with gecko-stuff on the tracks to make it go up walls and on the ceiling. it's a mobile turret for fucks sake, what more could you ask for?

Drones, like spirits, are the single biggest force multiplier you can have. And the biggest thing a mundane can have as well. Which is why the rules are generally crap and the toys are expensive, because you can make mages feel small in the pants using them.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:05 am

So, SRR confused me a bit in one thing: I was constantly expecting basically everyone to backstab me at some point. Have I been given misleading information, and Shadowrun (the tabletop game) is more about not being sure you can trust people and complications of some kind ensuring nothing goes according to plan? Or is it in fact typical that you can be sure you can't trust anyone, and the PC game is just being nice?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 1:52 am

It varies a lot by the GM and what sources they emphasized, although overall I'd say Shadowrun is more infatuated with Murphy's law than outright betrayal. There is no doom tracker or explicit traitor mechanic and the books occasionally comment that outright betrayal tends to be bad business since it dilutes the talent pool and gets Johnsons blackballed or dead. But with all that said, a lot of the fluff pieces feature betrayal and deliberate misinformation, so it isn't really shocking that SR became infamous for dickhead NPCs. It's a franchise with tie-in novels named Never Trust An Elf and Never Deal With Dragons, after all, and obviously some GMs took some cues from that.

Also...

you have to admit that while SRR avoids Paranoia levels of backstabbing, it certainly does include a fair number of snooty people muttering about keikaku and the entire adventure starts off with a big fat lie. That's only mild when compared to the reputation Shadowrun has picked up over the years.

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 8:58 am

Now . . getting stabbed in the back quite literally will happen as well, if you do not take care of who is behind your character.
In my group it's usually better to trust the GM than to trust the other players <.<;,
Well, at least for me, because i can tell when he gets fed up with our antics and try to steer us a bit into a direction he wants us to go usually ^^

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:01 pm

When it comes to getting caught with contraband, what happens to you if you're caught possessing illegal cyberware (such as titanium bone lacing)?

Stahlseele · Post by **Stahlseele** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:13 pm

They will either simply kill you or make you an offer you can't refuse with a little something as added incentive to not just run and hide.
You are a shadwrunner. Technically, you do not exist because you don't have a legal SIN, so as you are, technically, not a citizen and actually a carreer criminal including murder, theft, terrorism and other such things on different scales, you can be treated as an enemy combatant and OH MY GOD HE HAS A GUN! BANG BANG BANG . . or you were resisting arrest. Or you tried to make a run for it and ended up with a clean hole through the back of your skull.
It really depends on who has you cought and where you were cought doing what exactly to whom exactly at the moment you were cought and shortly before?

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Fri Sep 19, 2014 2:33 pm

I can't quite parse the Augmentation book on this, but it sounds like you can have any of the bioware be given as a transgenic alteration, and then take Genetic Heritage (Deltaware Synaptic Booster). Is this valid?