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Crissa
King


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
Posts: 6745
Location: Santa Cruz

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:25 am    Post subject: Need character for 3.5 game... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I was invited to this game. It's one of those games where the rules won't really have much to do with the game itself, but it does have a bunch of melee characters already (rogue/barbarian/cleric, a soulknife, a scout/rogue, and a swashbuckler/warmage) so I'm not sure what to choose.

It's currently an all good, half lawful half neutral party and apparently already having lawful arguments.

It's one of those things, if I choose a wizard I'll be left out of anything resembling combat, yet that is what they need. The DM suggested mystic theurge, even o-o (Where you're not as good as a cleric or a wizard, let alone both.)

I was thinking archer-Paladin, since that gets them healy stuff (the only have one level of cleric) and stays pretty simple.

The DM " don't want to deal with the innevitable game-balance issues" and "just using the materials from the books" at least related to things on the character sheet. The game itself is full of things that aren't in the books. The character is due on the first.

I dunno where to start.

-Crissa

Edited to add the description stuff:
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Last edited by Crissa on Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:45 am; edited 1 time in total
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Judging__Eagle
Prince


Joined: 07 Mar 2008
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Location: Lake Ontario is in my backyard; Canada

PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Play a Druid.

You'll have the healy stuff, and you can rely on ranged spells no problem. Wands are a good bet for that.

If fighting happens, you've got a pet that shares buffs with you, so you count as bringing 2 melee types to the table.

Of course, cleric is also good.

Also, your link doesn't work. I'm guessing one needs to be a member of that game before they can see it.
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Avoraciopoctules
Overlord


Joined: 21 Oct 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Personally, in a game like this, I'd just make something that I could put together in PCGen ( http://pcgen.sourceforge.net/01_overview.php ) using SRD content only. Very easy to make, very easy to change, and if you don't pick anything all that terrible, your PC should be at least competent. I'd go Cleric, as some DMs attach nasty RP baggage to Paladins and Druids, and there's already someone to throw fire at things and Sneak Attack. I doubt that a party with a Soulknife in it would need to anyone to be tremendously effective personally.

EDIT: I should mention that the link doesn't work for me either.


Last edited by Avoraciopoctules on Tue Nov 24, 2009 5:53 am; edited 1 time in total
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God_of_Awesome
Knight-Baron


Joined: 22 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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In all seriousness, I would play a wizard but I suck magic cock so take that as you will.
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Judging__Eagle
Prince


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For Druids... you can throw RP baggage right back. Lots of it. So much that you are very hard to deny your desire to play a druid.

The real trick, is to create a character with a lot of conviction.

Say:

1 My [forest/druidic elder/parent/animal companion/Fairy friend/lover/your mum] was killed/destroyed/banished/etc.

2 I'm seeking [power, resources, revenge] in order to reverse 1

3 The fastest way to 2 is [kill some guy, get an artifact, become level 7]

4 the fastest way to 3 is to become a mercenary adventurer, a two-legged predator among the teeming hordes of cattle that fill the towns and cities

Play up how much your character despises and hates "city folk"; you don't even have to be mean, you can just say that cities are covered in unnatural filth, since they're unnatural places; they're full of disease, and people in cities starve all the damned time.

You could also choose to emphasize "I'm a feral animal one step away from ripping your neck open, do not fuck with me" instead.

Seriously, there's a pile of options you could go for that makes it obvious that "you're a druid" as well as allowing your character to adventure all over the damned place. Dungeons are just very elite hunting grounds, and treasure and magical items are not much different than taking teeth, ears or other trophies from a kill.

Actual coins could be approached a few ways. Either, you take your share, or you tell the other PCs they can have it, you can get anything you need in the wild. With the second one, there's more issues, but it's harder to deny that acting like that is "not druid like".

On the other hand, getting thick gold earrings, bangles, and jewellery for yourself and either your animal companion, or animals that you Awaken. Casting Empowered or Maximized Awaken is an awesome idea btw; since you can make super-smart animals that don't take up your animal companion slot, and will follow you.

For what you choose to awaken, I recommend awakening really small things, and not using them to clutter the battlefield; birds, squirrels, mice, cats, dogs are all viable.

The disease and starvation parts are almost always played down in the pseudo-medieval settings that people see in most Fantasy stories; real life medieval city life was not all that awesome; people seriously poured their shit out of windows and onto the street below.

Seriously, a good powergamer or "roleplayer" can write a backstory to wedge any character firmly into the craw of the existing campaign.

I've gotten to the point where I build my character's first; then reverse-write all or most of my character's background, so that their abilities match their backstory.

It's a strategy that I recommend for other people to use. Specifically, since if you have some writing ability, you can create a character whose fluff is usually pretty uncommon, and sometimes actually more interesting than the typical "fluff" that I see for most characters.
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God_of_Awesome
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Joined: 22 Aug 2009
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Wasn't their a city druid in Unearthed Arcana or somewhere?

I've always like the idea of a druid that treats the city as as much a natural phenomenon as a beaver's dam.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, I wasn't big on Druids, I really don't like how they have everyone's abilities. There's a soulknife in the group, you really think a Druid's pet won't overshadow them?

I like Druids in general, just the 3x one seems to be nowhere on the balance scale with anything else.

Quoted the description page in the first post.

What's the distribution of 5d4, anyhow? There's 1024 possible outcomes over a range of 5-20, with what looks like a mean of 12.5. It doesn't seem to have great odds for the edges comparatively.

-Crissa


Last edited by Crissa on Tue Nov 24, 2009 7:14 am; edited 1 time in total
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, you can always sandbag if that makes you feel better. The suggestion to go to melee was one of desperation than anything else.

You and your pet could just hang back the whole time, and you just cast spells. Maybe get a raccoon or primate pet, and have them throw sling stones as well.

5d4 is.... high minimum, and pretty middle-ish average results.

You might only get one decent stat, making playing some sort of caster your best bet.

I guess the next question is what level is the gameplay at?


Also, don't feel bad about the soulknife. The entire group is pretty weak, just playing a heavily armoured fighter with a greatsword and high str would embarrass most of that group. For instance, a cleric with the war domain.
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't even get what you want to play. As I understand it the group is currently pretty much a low-powered melee group with wands for curing. That means you can pretty much play anything you like, right?

You are thinking about playing a paladin "for the healing" but that is nonsense, there is no difference between having a level of cleric and "being a healer" until you get access to heal / resurrection / break enchantment / remove curse / neutralize poison (and the last three are sketchy).

My advice is to pick a class you always wanted to play but that always seemed weak, mechanically. Or alternatively, tell us what you'd like to play and how powerful you want to be compared to the rest of the party. Right now you are giving us nothing to work with.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

They don't have wands.

Because I like the other players, and am pretty sure while the dice rolling will annoy me, the story will be fun.

I'm trying to think what to play that won't feel like a straightjacket later on, but that always leads me to Rogue. I don't have any of the books referenced, so I don't know what PrCs/Classes are in them. Paladin would actually have more healing than their cleric at the starting level and could also use wands. Wizard... Well, I guess I could play a bookworm, it'd support the party, but what would I /do/...

Playing a Fighter or Ranger in their game is pretty much out; they don't understand probability and I've seen a Fighter basically do nothing because they didn't have spot/listen up, and that's all their skill points if they did.

-Crissa


Last edited by Crissa on Tue Nov 24, 2009 10:22 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quantumboost
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
I'm trying to think what to play that won't feel like a straightjacket later on, but that always leads me to Rogue. I don't have any of the books referenced, so I don't know what PrCs/Classes are in them.


In that case, Beguiler from the PHB2 might be worth a look. It's basically a rogue that gets illusion and enchantment spells instead of sneak attack. A couple fewer skill points, but pretty much the same skill list and little need for any particular stats beyond Intelligence. Also, the same casting paradigm used for the Tome specialist casters, which means your time devoted to spell selection is "I have them".
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 8:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Spirit Shaman. Basically you are a lower powered druid, but that still gives you decent casting from a great list, coupled with a couple of neat class features. And if you do want to play healer you can. I don't get why anyone would want or feel the need to combat heal, but clearly you do. You get Lesser Vigor, Summon Unicorn and Rejuvenating Cocoon which are basically the best heals there are (along with Heal).

Apart from that you can blast, control the battlefield, scout, use save-or-dies or buff up and enter melee. Your feats don't matter at all, but (unlike a druid) your stats do.
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Crissa
King


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Which book is Spirit Shaman in?

-Crissa
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ubernoob
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Spirit Shaman is in Complete Divine, but it isn't that great of a class (doesn't really reduce the bookkeeping, does most things "as druid, but weaker") and is just as easily replaced with a sandbagging druid (especially since if you're gone for a week they are more likely to know what everything in your class does).

Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2) is a freaking awesome class. The casting mechanic is less of a headache than sorcerer/psion/prepared casters and it also is versatile enough to contribute in little ways all the time, but doesn't really overshadow people.

Seriously, Beguiler is a great example of good design. It stays the same day to day, has lots of in theme options, and doesn't have a power level that's retardedly high or low.

Dread necromancer from heroes of horror gets the same pro argument as the beguiler, but it loses points for depending upon undead to do a lot of things.
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Murtak
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 11:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ubernoob wrote:
Spirit Shaman is in Complete Divine, but it isn't that great of a class (doesn't really reduce the bookkeeping, does most things "as druid, but weaker").

Spell preparation is gone, but spell selection remains. And yes, it is weaker. Much weaker. Of course so is that party. You would pretty much have to ignore the entire druid list of class features (including Wildshape and the Animal Companion) and you will still end up stronger than a Soulknife.

ubernoob wrote:
Beguiler (Player's Handbook 2) is a freaking awesome class.

Seconded.

ubernoob wrote:
but doesn't really overshadow people.

Not seconded. At all. The Beguiler is damn close behind the power classes. Of course that is fine when you play along Tome melees and by-the-book wizards, but compared to by-the-book melees and of all things a Soulknife you will have to kick yourself in the nuts at every opportunity to not overshadow the entirety of the group.


Personally I hate sandbagging. I'd rather play a weak character and play that character well than play a wizard and only use a tenth of my potential. If you agree with me, you should probably play a weak class/character (Spirit Shaman, Paladin, whatever). If you don't mind sandbagging, go ahead and play a Beguiler. It's a great class, zero headaches and it comes with batteries included.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 3:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree that beguiler is fun, interesting, and relatively easy. Just don't let the Cloaked Casting and Feinting abilities trick you into thinking you should be in melee. Wink
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Midnight_v
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 25, 2009 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't know why you're anti druid but thats a good suggestion.
I can't tell if you're wanting to join them in melee or if you want to be a caster?
Which?
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Crissa
King


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 7:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The paperwork and boringness of being a Wizard has a little bit to do with it. There's already a high-int character in the party, even if they don't do most wizardy things.

Druids just are sheer munchkin in 3.5. The favoritism for the class just drips everywhere. I don't know if I really feel good playing a character with more abilities than any two other characters in the game, just because the book says so.

That said, I really like Druids.

-Crissa
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Crissa
King


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 2:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So the DM went into a lecture on most powerful, biggest bonuses, when I mentioned the Beguiler, though no specifics.

What's the Holy Liberator? The DM suggested it. What makes it different?

I see references to a base class and a prestige class.

-Crissa
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You like druids, seriously, just play it. Most people don't know what a Druid can do, so people will be more accepting of the class. If you sandbag, they won't know that you're playing lazy.

Seriously, play "lazy healer", toss some buffs, and some crowd control stuff. Don't actually get into melee fights.

If all hell breaks loose, then start using Wildshape and real spells.

Just sandbagging can be fun, trust me.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's true.

I've been handed the holy liberator class by the DM, and I don't get it. It's like a terrible version of the Paladin. Except it's supposed to be on top of a Paladin that's already lost all their powers?

WTF?

I was planning to sandbag as a beguiler.

-Crissa
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

yeah... I recalled that the holy lib was 'some' type of pally PrC, but nothing really that I could remember about it.

did the pic of the class have some guy in chain mail with a hawk or something?

I remember one of the lame pally-based PrCs that had that.

Beguiler can work, honestly, play what you feel will be fun to play with. If you want to be a socially adept Beguiler, that's good, if you want to be a Mystic or Feral Druid, that's also good.
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cthulhu
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 4:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Holy liberator is a bad paladin that requires being shit and making bad decisions.

Just sandbag as a druid. I'd personally got 50/50 <best battlefield control at level>/<healing spell>.

Heck, get someone iron wood armour and call yourself a paladin of nature. Pretend you don't have an animal companion. Laugh a lot.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I made as gimped a character I could: A Beguiler 1 Paladin 3 using the seriously lame cross classing feats of 'Knight Training' and 'Practiced Spellcaster'.

...And I ended up overshadowing the rogue because I rolled 20 on every spot (I didn't even take spot!) and seriously outclassed him on ranks in search for traps...

-Crissa
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CatharzGodfoot
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 06, 2009 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
So I made as gimped a character I could: A Beguiler 1 Paladin 3 using the seriously lame cross classing feats of 'Knight Training' and 'Practiced Spellcaster'.

...And I ended up overshadowing the rogue because I rolled 20 on every spot (I didn't even take spot!) and seriously outclassed him on ranks in search for traps...

-Crissa

Well done! Twitch
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