So what do you guys like about Star Trek?

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Lago PARANOIA
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So what do you guys like about Star Trek?

Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Having never really seen much of the series, I tried watching some season 1 Enterprise episodes on YouTube the other day but just couldn't get through them. I really disliked Broken Bow + Strange New World + Fight or Flight, with its message of a future run by incompetents and unprofessionals who resent other races (Vulcans) for being more successful than then.

My exposure of the show is mostly through sfdebris's scathing reviews of the series, but obviously I'm missing a lot. In Enterprise's case I realized that I was missing out on the soul-crushing cynicism and anti-intellectualism. So Chuck can only take me so far.

So for fans of the series, what do you recommend and more specifically what do you like about the series.

EDIT: http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?t=49747 Oh, yeah, I think I watched the Andorian Incident, too. I didn't finish watching that episode, though, because when Archer and Tucker were talking about going down to the temple and T'Pol dropped the 'humans smell bad to Vulcans' bomb I got pissed enough to close YouTube and rant about it in this thread. I wonder why the hell I even bothered with this series in the first place.
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Post by RandomCasualty2 »

The first thing to note is that Enterprise isn't really great. If you're expecting some deeper moral and the portrayal of humanity as being really evolved and stuff, you're not really going to get that. The plot lines are pretty much for purely entertainment purposes, though some of them can be rather amusing at least. I mean this is a series that randomly time travels Archer and crew back to WW 2, only with aliens impersonating some of the Nazis.

The good news is that Season 1 is by far the worst season of Enterprise. The series generally gets better as the seasons progress, and some of the later stuff is watchable. Just don't expect any kind of deep message.

That being said, I don't think Enterprise is as bad as most people say it is. It's certainly not great, but it's not really that bad, given that ToS, TNG and Voyager had a good amount of boring/bad episodes. Even DS9s first season was really slow until they figured out where they were going.
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Re: So what do you guys like about Star Trek?

Post by Neeeek »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Having never really seen much of the series, I tried watching some season 1 Enterprise episodes on YouTube the other day but just couldn't get through them. I really disliked Broken Bow + Strange New World + Fight or Flight, with its message of a future run by incompetents and unprofessionals who resent other races (Vulcans) for being more successful than then.

My exposure of the show is mostly through sfdebris's scathing reviews of the series, but obviously I'm missing a lot. In Enterprise's case I realized that I was missing out on the soul-crushing cynicism and anti-intellectualism. So Chuck can only take me so far.

So for fans of the series, what do you recommend and more specifically what do you like about the series.
About Enterprise? You do realize that's basically the nadir of the entire franchise, right? Well, that or the 5th movie.
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Post by Leress »

I do a short breakdown of how I rank the various series.

Original-Good 60's scifi
Next Generation- Good, the first season is rough though.
DS9- My favorite
Voyager- Many bad episodes
Enterprise - Much like the second Highlander movie I pretend it doesn't exist.
The animated series- I haven't watch all of them yet so I'm undecided.
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Post by Username17 »

Yeah, DS9 is my favorite by a long shot. That being said, it would probably make sense to watch Star Trek: Next Gen first. DS9 really is a direct sequel to the themes set up in Next Gen. Just don't watch Jounery's End in season 7 because while I respect Mr. Wheaton, that episode fucking sucks.

Season 1 of Next Gen is kind of on the clunky side, but it really is a very good show all around, and you'll be glad you've watched it. It's seriously like 6 solid days of entertainment even if you don't sleep.

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Post by tzor »

Minor nit pick, which is important to understanding almost everything that there is to know about the original series and the whole mindset of Gene Roddenberry and most of the plot lines for the original series.

Original – the precursor to “All in the Family.”

Now if that doesn’t sound bizarre, then you understand Gene Roddenberry and the problems of Television in the early 1960’s. Social commentary was practically forbidden. Issues of race, sexism, and god forbid the war were simply verboten. There was only one way you could create a series that involved the social issues of the time; wrap it in the sci-fi world of aliens and exotic examples.

Star Trek: A Phenomenon and Social Statement on the 1960s
On September 8, 1966 at 8:30 PM on NBC, America received its first glimpse of what was to become a legend. Star Trek made its debut that night, and America was never to be the same. For three years Star Trek graced the network, only to be canceled and to later return in syndication. Only then did the series command the reputation it deserved. But Star Trek has never been a run-of-the-mill science fiction program. One might find great difficulty in trying to compare it to other television science fiction series, like Space: 1999 (which competed with Star Trek during its run in syndication), or series produced in the 1980's, like Battlestar Galactica or Buck Rogers in the 25th Century. Comparison is difficult because Star Trek is not simply a far-out science fiction program- it is a science fiction program that reflects the America of the 1960's. Indeed, Gene Roddenberry, the creator of Star Trek, during one interview is quoted as saying, "I have no belief that STAR TREK depicts the actual future, it depicts us, now, things we need to understand about that" (Interview 6). And David Gerrold, a writer for the series, says in his book that "[t]he stories are about twentieth century man's attitudes in a future universe. The stories are about us" (155). Of course not every single episode makes a social commentary, but throughout the series, characters, themes, motifs, and of course, individual episodes make strong comments on sexism and feminism, racism and improving race relations, as well as militarism and peace, all major social issues during the late 1960's, and to a different degree, social issues of today.
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Post by tzor »

FrankTrollman wrote:Yeah, DS9 is my favorite by a long shot. That being said, it would probably make sense to watch Star Trek: Next Gen first. DS9 really is a direct sequel to the themes set up in Next Gen. Just don't watch Jounery's End in season 7 because while I respect Mr. Wheaton, that episode fucking sucks.
I have to agree with you on that one; one of the worst episodes of the entire series and I was never a fan of the character.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

What would you say that the five best episodes of Star Trek are?

I just saw In The Pale Moonlight not too long ago since I heard it was the best episode of DS9. I am planning to buy the DS9 box set as soon as I get the phat cash for it, it was that good. Some of the nuances were lost on me since I haven't seen any of TNG/DS9, but goddamn.

Similarly, what would you say are the five worst episodes of Star Trek, not counting Threshold?
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In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

The Official Fan Reviews site is mostly right on (except for giving "Search For Spock" more than 1 star - that movie was insulting on many levels). Group assessment studies have shown that if you ask large numbers of people to rate something subjectively, the aggregate answer is pretty decent.

In general, you can almost rate DS9 episodes by how much screen time is devoted to Garak. It's not that the other characters aren't good, or even that Garak would be able to sustain the show by himself - it's that Garak is a key figure in all the really stomach churning subplots. Probably the best scene in all of Star Trek is when Bashir gives Garak a copy of Julius Caesar to read - that's right up there with Quark's rant about root beer. There is a lot to be said for What You Leave Behind, The Wire, and Improbable Cause, for example.

But Star Trek also delivers some of the best comedy on television, precisely because comedy episodes didn't happen every time. Breaking up the drama of the show with Trials and Tribble-lations or A Fistful of Datas is totally comedy gold.

However, the best episode ever is not even a DS9 episode. It's a TNG episode called Chain of Command. It's powerful and continues to be socially relevant more than a decade after airing.

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Post by Kobajagrande »

FrankTrollman wrote: In general, you can almost rate DS9 episodes by how much screen time is devoted to Garak. It's not that the other characters aren't good, or even that Garak would be able to sustain the show by himself - it's that Garak is a key figure in all the really stomach churning subplots. Probably the best scene in all of Star Trek is when Bashir gives Garak a copy of Julius Caesar to read - that's right up there with Quark's rant about root beer. There is a lot to be said for What You Leave Behind, The Wire, and Improbable Cause, for example.

But Star Trek also delivers some of the best comedy on television, precisely because comedy episodes didn't happen every time. Breaking up the drama of the show with Trials and Tribble-lations or A Fistful of Datas is totally comedy gold.
This is all true; I would also add comedic one-shots based on Ferengies, the "Sisko in 1950's New York", episodes with James Darren, and that one episode when some old kickass klingons and Dax go to take revenge on some random dude.
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Post by shadzar »

Enterprise had nothing to do with Star Trek, and was just Quantum Leap in Space.

Start watching where everyone else did with the Glass Menagerie. Go through the tribbles where Shatner fights his own hair piece, etc.

I cannot remember names of the episodes, because many were so long ago and I forget to watch TVLand and G$tv. So worst for me would have been ones during Enterprise, and best was a mix of DS9/TNG, also the one episode of Voyager where Paris and Janeway reach warp 10 and evolve into the future form of humans. Tasha Yar being killed was a good one, where a non-red shirt died to break the trope. But they did switch the shirt colors a bit for TNG so a yellow shirt became the red shirt of the past.

For the DS9 faves, I liked the Wallace Shawn episodes, because it was made to be Grand Negus. You never really got to see inside the Ferrengi culture that much before except stay the hell away from them. It helped fill in the universe a bit prior to the new threats from Odo's people came about.

The Romulan Cardasian thing wa pretty good, but just something about Garak I didn't like. He felt more like a mobster than a spy, and seemed to be playing the quiet Eric Flint type of spy. His stories were fine, but just something was amiss with the character.

What I liked most for Star Trek was the tech. Scotty, Georde & Data, etc. How far could they stretch the suspension of disbelief without breaking it similar to what Verne had done. Roddenbury was right on target with his tech and its plausibility.
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Post by Count Arioch the 28th »

I like Star Trek because I have a fetish for female rubber-forehead aliens.
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Post by Lich-Loved »

I was lucky enough to flip on the TV one day and catch the first showing of The Inner Light (TNG).

This episode remains my favorite of any of the "modern" ST shows and ranks very highly against all ST episodes.
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

FrankTrollman wrote:However, the best episode ever is not even a DS9 episode. It's a TNG episode called Chain of Command. It's powerful and continues to be socially relevant more than a decade after airing.
It doesn't seem like very many people in the United States paid much attention to this episode. Oh well. At least we were only torturing brown people. :roll:

LP: Enterprise is hands-down the worst Trek series. It's the cinematic equivalent of find a homeless person and asking him to drop trou so you can suck the sweat off of his ballsack. Voyager wasn't very good either. If you're new to Star Trek, avoid these two series like the plague.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So. Who are the best writers/producers/directors for Star Trek in your opinion and which ones are the worst?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:So. Who are the best writers/producers/directors for Star Trek in your opinion and which ones are the worst?
That's a hard one, because honestly you don't really notice the directorial or writing credits on most shows. Looking back through the list, I would say my favorite Star Trek writer is Peter Allan Fields

And surprisingly, some of the better episodes are seriously directed by cast members.

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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

Brannon Braga managed to produce the Star Trek franchise right into the ground with Voyager and Enterprise. Needless to say, he gets a lot of heat for that.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Brannon Braga managed to produce the Star Trek franchise right into the ground with Voyager and Enterprise. Needless to say, he gets a lot of heat for that.
I thought the producer was Richard Berman, after Gene Roddenberry died.

I can understand the hatred for Berman but not for Braga (other than him writing Threshold and Night in Sickbay)--apparently he's pretty well-liked as a writer for 24. Maybe Star Trek just didn't suit his writing style?
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by PhoneLobster »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:apparently he's pretty well-liked as a writer for 24.
Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait wait... wait... wait...

24 has writers?
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Post by Ganbare Gincun »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:
Brannon Braga managed to produce the Star Trek franchise right into the ground with Voyager and Enterprise. Needless to say, he gets a lot of heat for that.
I thought the producer was Richard Berman, after Gene Roddenberry died.
Braga became Executive Producer for Voyager by the 4th season and was the Executive Producer of Enterprise right from the beginning of the series. Mind you, Berman was still the person that was ultimately running the show - think of Braga as Darth Vader to Berman's Emperor Palpatine.
Lago PARANOIA wrote:I can understand the hatred for Berman but not for Braga (other than him writing Threshold and Night in Sickbay)--apparently he's pretty well-liked as a writer for 24. Maybe Star Trek just didn't suit his writing style?
No offense, but the "24" audience isn't really hard to please. :lol:
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

Watching DS9's In the Pale Moonlight (a second time) and City On the Edge of Forever were some of the best times I've ever had watching television. It's amazing how similar these episodes were on these ultimate points and how they didn't shy away from their conclusions; most television shows nowadays would try to waffle or take the less morally ambiguous option and hope for the best. My only complaint about the latter is that it would've REALLY helped for this episode to be a two-partner so we could actually see the world corrupted by Nazism. Wouldn't you like to see Kirk, McCoy, and Spock outwit Nazis? I sure would. Though I understand that things like that Just Weren't Done so I don't hold that against the creators. Just, hindsight.

I can slowly feel the Trekkie aura seep into my body. It feels nice.

Someone recommend me some more TOS episodes. Yahoo has the entire series up. Hurry.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Lago PARANOIA »

So, just saw The Enemy Within. I liked it, but to me the episode had two flaws to it.

The first one was that the episode tried a little too hard to milk the drama of Kirk confusion. I couldn't help but feel that Spock and McCoy should have instantly saw through the 'Evil' Kirk at the final bridge scene--though I don't know whether they were just humoring the clone or what. I really can't tell, but if it's what I think it is they really shouldn't have done that.

The second thing which I think REALLY hurt the episode was the lack of sense of urgency on the crew's part toward Sulu and crew's plight. I mean, those poor redshirts bastards were about to die and I found Kirk/McCoy/Spock's sang froid towards the situation, even as they reached their near-final moments sort of apalling.

The other thing, which I don't really find a flaw but just kind of weird, was that the do it/don't do it decision speech felt like that the 'take it safe' part should've come from Spock and the 'go ahead and do it' should've come from McCoy--especially since Spock's decision was based on conjecture and McCoy's was based on (lack of) empiricism. I mean, I thought Spock was the logical one and McCoy was the emotional one.

Also, why didn't using the shuttles come up? Call me crazy, but I distinctly saw shuttle-like devices residing in the hangar at some point in the past. Were they just all busted?

I did like how the episode said that a person's evil side was necessary rather than just stating it was something you had to fight blahblahblah follow your inner goodness.
Josh Kablack wrote:Your freedom to make rulings up on the fly is in direct conflict with my freedom to interact with an internally consistent narrative. Your freedom to run/play a game without needing to understand a complex rule system is in direct conflict with my freedom to play a character whose abilities and flaws function as I intended within that ruleset. Your freedom to add and change rules in the middle of the game is in direct conflict with my ability to understand that rules system before I decided whether or not to join your game.

In short, your entire post is dismissive of not merely my intelligence, but my agency. And I don't mean agency as a player within one of your games, I mean my agency as a person. You do not want me to be informed when I make the fundamental decisions of deciding whether to join your game or buying your rules system.
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Post by Username17 »

Back then the creators had no way to ensure that the episodes would air in any particular order. The network was like FOX - showing episodes out of order for no gods' damned reason. So they couldn't do two parters. They couldn't even have real continuity between episodes within a season. Once a show had gone up, they could film a new episode that referenced the old one. So old trek can and does reference episodes from previous seasons. That's how you get awesome recurring villains like Mud.

Anyway, go watch The Naked Time. They rehashed it in TNG as "The Naked Now." Both versions are awesome, but I think I have to give the props to the original series. Also, you should watch Space Seed. It's the episode so cool that they made it into The Wrath of Khan.

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Post by PhoneLobster »

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Wouldn't you like to see Kirk, McCoy, and Spock outwit Nazis? I sure would.
The Nazi planet episode wasn't so great.

Even Mobster planet was better. But still dumb.
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