So what do you guys like about Star Trek?

[erik]

I'm with Tussock there. I favored DS9 because it had continuity. By not visiting an entirely new location every single episode they actually created more potential for storytelling. DS9 did wane at the end but I felt that it was consistently bringing the goods better than any other post-Original star trek series (Original being from a different era and me not having watched those episodes as they first aired, tis hard to judge em properly).

[hyzmarca]

For DS9 people:

Do you think that the series went too far sometimes with trying to 'deconstruct' the Federation in order to make it less Mary Sueish/more believable?

Personally, I think that Quark's rant against humans and the whole Maquis situation really strained credibility.

The Maquis situation was really funny, because any government in real life would have just gone in with guns and made them move. The Federation was trying to play nice with their colonists while still avoiding a war with the Cardassians and it's like the colonists are all stubborn idiots who would rather live in what is effectively a giant minefield than move somewhere safer and more comfortable.

But that wasn't DS9s fault, it was a leftover from TNG.

Of course, the Maquis did have a point about kicking the Cardassians' asses, given that they were giant assholes who weren't any actual threat to the Federation, but looking back on it now with more real world experience it seems to me that the Maquis are basically reactionary warhawks who havn't thought about the consequnces or costs of what they want and the Federation, though it could crush the Cardassian Union with ease, doesn't want to get stuck with the quagmire of occupation, reeducation, and nation-building that would certainly follow, a perfectly sensible position.

As I understand it, the Feds are against transhumanism because the Eugenics Wars basically destroyed the planet. It's a whole "our morals need to advance as much as our tech" response to someone trying take over the world using asymmetric force (super-soldiers and nukes in this case).

This doesn't really make much sense TBH. In the distant future, especially when the military is highly mechanized, being a super-soldier just isn't that much of an advantage. The only thing that would really help you is enhanced intelligence--except that at this point in time people have androids, holograms, and are bosom buddies with a race of supergeniuses. I know the Zimmerman and Data thing is fairly recent as far as the TNG/DS9/VOY continuity goes, but if people aren't scared of uber-sentient AI then why are they afraid of humans achieving a fraction of that ability?

Well, Data and the Vulcans aren't actually super-smart. They are very smart and they live a long time, but they don't actually solve problems better than humans who are also very smart. I mean, Data is not even as smart as his creator considering that he can't even figure out how to make other androids (and he can look at his own design any time he wants). At best, they have some tricks like perfect memory and perfect calculating ability (both pretty useless in a world where ultra-powerful computers are always an arm's reach away).

My understanding of the Eugenics Wars is that they made super-smart guys, creating a tyranny of the smart over the less smart. It's about as offensive as creating slave classes of functional idiots.

Considering the episodes where they appeared, the super-soldiers were basically master problem solvers who were also complete douches and really only failed due to doucheness. I could see people freaking out over enhancement when Khan Singh and the Borg are the proven cases of transhumanism you have as case studies.

Heck, considering that the original series had them fighting god-like beings every third episode, I can see why they'd avoid transhumanism in any form. Super-powers = super-asshat seems to be a recurring theme.

The anti-transhumanism is actually a bit of a retcon.

In TNG, there was an episode called Unnatural Selection, which showed that the Federation was actively working on developing super-intelligent telepathic and telekinetic children with guided-missile immune systems.
The only problem with the design was the guided-missile immune system, which automatically targeted other people just like it targeted microbes in the air.

There are also Federation colonies that engage in mass cloning and other non-standard means of reproduction, as well as that one overengineered colony in The Masterpiece Society, where everyone was genetically engineered to fulfill a specific role and they all had their lives planned out for them precisely before they were even conceived. All worked together in perfect Harmony living perfectly-engineered lives, until the Enterprise showed up to save them from a natural disaster.

The anti-transhumanism was actually thrown into DS9 to give Dr. Bashir a more interesting backstory. The Federation presented in TNG was skeptical about transhumanism, but accepting of it, and in some ways pushing the boundaries of the field.

[K]

The anti-transhumanism is actually a bit of a retcon.

In TNG, there was an episode called Unnatural Selection, which showed that the Federation was actively working on developing super-intelligent telepathic and telekinetic children with guided-missile immune systems.
The only problem with the design was the guided-missile immune system, which automatically targeted other people just like it targeted microbes in the air.

There are also Federation colonies that engage in mass cloning and other non-standard means of reproduction, as well as that one overengineered colony in The Masterpiece Society, where everyone was genetically engineered to fulfill a specific role and they all had their lives planned out for them precisely before they were even conceived. All worked together in perfect Harmony living perfectly-engineered lives, until the Enterprise showed up to save them from a natural disaster.

The anti-transhumanism was actually thrown into DS9 to give Dr. Bashir a more interesting backstory. The Federation presented in TNG was skeptical about transhumanism, but accepting of it, and in some ways pushing the boundaries of the field.

Exceptions don't disprove the general rule. I'm pretty sure the whole Khan episode from the original series establishes the backstory to the Eugenics War and the current distaste.

The two episodes you mentioned were also isolated areas far from the center of Fed territory. The Masterpiece Society actually had a thing where the clones were dying off and that's why they stole the crew's DNA as a completely separate issue from the disaster (and I think the cloning was only because they were originally a crashed ship).

Those episodes also don't bode well for transhumanism as we see that they both end with everyone deciding that enhancement was a terrible idea. Both are classic hubris episodes.

The only positive example of Fed acceptance of transhumanism is Geordi's visor, and even that is played for angst in several episodes.

[hyzmarca]

Exceptions don't disprove the general rule. I'm pretty sure the whole Khan episode from the original series establishes the backstory to the Eugenics War and the current distaste.

Exceptions do disprove the general rule. If the rule is that "all swans are white", and I show you a black swan, then the rule is wrong.

The two episodes you mentioned were also isolated areas far from the center of Fed territory. The Masterpiece Society actually had a thing where the clones were dying off and that's why they stole the crew's DNA as a completely separate issue from the disaster (and I think the cloning was only because they were originally a crashed ship).

You're thinking of Up the Long Ladder, which is more notable for being incredibly racist against the Irish. In the Masterpiece Society, the moral of the story is that even well-intentioned interference can destroy a culture, as Picard laments the damage done by the Enterprise because their presence made many people want to leave. It was more a caution about interference and the fragility of an engineered society.

[K]

Exceptions don't disprove the general rule. I'm pretty sure the whole Khan episode from the original series establishes the backstory to the Eugenics War and the current distaste.

Exceptions do disprove the general rule. If the rule is that "all swans are white", and I show you a black swan, then the rule is wrong.

No, they don't.

Only in philosophy's Formal Logic would exceptions disprove a rule. Logic like computers or the law or philosophy's Informal Logic accept exceptions to rules. So the Federation can totally have laws against genetic engineering of humans for enhancement and still run a human enhancement lab in the same way that military-grade weapons are illegal for civilians and perfectly fine for on-duty military personnel.

That being said, the Eugenics War backstory from the original series and films clearly establishes the Federation's distaste for transhumanism and it's a thread that runs throughout all series.

(While trying to find episodes where conversations about Geordi's visor occur, I ran into the wiki link for Afrofuturism. I don't really have a comment for that, but I thought it was interesting.)

In the Masterpiece Society, the moral of the story is that even well-intentioned interference can destroy a culture, as Picard laments the damage done by the Enterprise because their presence made many people want to leave. It was more a caution about interference and the fragility of an engineered society.

Up the Long Ladder was also about how the colony of clones was backwards and sucked both socially and technologically, and that's why their chief scientist wanted to leave.

Transhumanism just doesn't get a good representation in any part of Star Trek. From the Jem'Hadar to the Borg to potions that reduce aging to the god-like power of the Q in human hands, enhancements of any kind are shown as harmful.

[erik]

I don't remember why I wanted to do this, maybe this thread. I did it during my internet downtime.

Now I must share.

[Lago PARANOIA]

Err, what the?

[Chamomile]

40K guys breaking into a Star Trek ship. Looks pretty cool.

[Mistborn]

I don't remember why I wanted to do this, maybe this thread. I did it during my internet downtime.

Now I must share.

... Is it bad that I can't tell if those are loyalist or chaos Space Marines?

[Stahlseele]

Yes it is.
The 8-Pronged Star should give you a hint . .

[Maxus]

Horus there should give you a hint.



and: Horus vs the Emperor

[hyzmarca]

What if the Kazon in ST: VOY were an attempt to port over a WH40K mentality over towards the Star Trek universe and put it into a faction?

The Kazon are not 40Kish in any way. They are just a bunch of losers. The idea was to show how Federation tech is really good or something, but it just ended up being shitty.

The Kazons were literally 90s LA Street Gangs in Space. The writers even referred to the major factions as the Crips and the Bloods in internally.

The idea behind the Kazons was to do relevant social commentary about the gang lifestyle. They failed miserably.

With Jennifer Lien's departure (and I don't blame her) Jeri Ryan was brought in to sex up VOY even more as a naughty librarian. The producers didn't even bother giving her a uniform, just a sexy catsuit, even though all of the outlaw Maquis crew wore the standard jumper. I found that mildly offensive and it continued with T'Pol in ENT.

The 7 of nine suit apparently required an a professional dresser and ten minutes get off, so filming had to completely stop for twenty minutes whenever Jeri Ryan needed to pee.

TNG is respectable in how it promotes diplomacy as a method of conflict resolution. But it blows because it doesn't depict diplomacy in a realistic fashion and how it always works (and how mind-numbingly stupid the Federation has become. The Captain of their biggest battleship refuses to run military exercises to maintain fighting readiness?)

The Enterprise D was never meant to be a battleship, though. It was an exploration ship and a literal small town in space complete with civilians and children. It was never meant to get into combat. It just happened to have the biggest guns and the best shields as a safety precaution. It's primary role was long-term exploration missions with a side of diplomacy. It was pretty well optimized for first contacts, providing a microcosm of federation technology, values, and lifestyle while having weapons sufficient to give most hostile aliens pause.

So, what's with Star Trek's transhumanism ban? Not knowing much about the backstory of Earth I can sort of see what they were going for in the Genetics Wars with Khan--a total Gattaca thing.

But like, in the far future where everyone has universal health care and science is ridiculously advanced, why are people like Bashir supposed to be rare and such?

I find this really hard to believe that this is out of some sort of human-centered resentment, because no one seems to mind (except for McCoy somehow, but I chalk that up to 60's schizophrenia) working alongside Vulcans--and Vulcans are pretty much better than humans in every way. Or how about Data. Same deal and he's actually the commander on a starship.

Like, what gives?

Trek isn't really anti-transhumanist so much as it is pro-humaninist. Geordie is basically a cyborg with eyes that let him see shit that isn't even on the electromagnetic spectrum at all. This is a huge defining part of his character. You don't see many characters like him mostly because special effects are expensive. Trek just doesn't focus on how cybernetics and genetic engineering change society because this isn't the point of the show.

Star Trek was never really about the technology. It was always able the people. The technology was just a way to tell stories about the people. Going full-on cyberpunk or biopunk would have detracted from that in addition to costing a lot of money for the special effects.

When it does tech heavy stories it is at its worst. When it does character heavy stories it is at its best.

Personally, I think it's best to assume that there is a great deal of genetic engineering and cybernetics behind the scenes, it's just unobtrusive. You never really see a seriously disabled person in Trek except that one low-gravity worlder, and even then she wasn't that disabled.

As for the genetic engineering being illegal thing, I think that was one of the biggest mistakes made by the DS9 writers. There is never any evidence of that any where else (except Enterprise). Indeed, there is genetic engineering in TNG that isn't treated as something illegal. It just ends badly because the kids immune systems were over engineered (microbe-seeking missile antibodies that could kill infectious agents a substantial distance away from the individual's body ended up killing everyone around them).

For DS9 people:

Do you think that the series went too far sometimes with trying to 'deconstruct' the Federation in order to make it less Mary Sueish/more believable?

Personally, I think that Quark's rant against humans and the whole Maquis situation really strained credibility.

[Stahlseele]

Thing i like about Star Trek?
Bridge Bunnies in Spandex Jumpers.
Not much else to be honest.


@Genetic Engineering:;
Yes, there IS evidence of that in DS9 O.o
Julian Bashier to be clear.
He actually almost got kicked out of Star Fleet, when it came out that he was an Augment.

[Lago PARANOIA]

For people who have seen the ENT episodes The Andorian Incident and Shadows of P'Jem -- or the hilarious SFDebris pisstakes of the episodes -- what was your opinion on the whole spying conflict?

[Shrapnel]

I never really bothered with Enterprise, and when I did watch the show it was because a) Scot Bakula was in it, and b) there wasn't much else on.

In fact, the only three Star Trek franchises that I really watched seriously was the original, the animated cartoon (fuck you, it was good and is totally canon), and TNG. DS9 and Voyager were okay, but I only watched it intermittently.

[Lago PARANOIA]

You know, one of the things I really appreciate about TOS episodes is that there is very little in the way of B-plot filler. I mean, there's still a ton of fucking filler in episodes -- c'mon, it's Star Trek -- but it's no ENT or even TNG.

The only Star Trek that had B-plots that I liked was DS9. B-Plots in TNG and VOY mostly suck eggs.

But anyway, was the idea to only have A-plots a writing decision specific to the show or was it just how television was done back then? I rather like it, personally, it makes TOS episodes feel longer despite their running time.

[Voss]

For people who have seen the ENT episodes The Andorian Incident and Shadows of P'Jem -- or the hilarious SFDebris pisstakes of the episodes -- what was your opinion on the whole spying conflict?

That both sides were irredeemable assholes, and smug about it.

On the one hand, of course the Vulcan are going to spy on their belligerent neighbors. That is pretty much just common sense. On the other hand, Vulcans throughout the entire series are handled badly. They aren't logical at all, and operate pretty exclusively on the theme that Daddy knows best, because this is way its always been done. And given that Vulcan honesty was a big deal in the TOS, I have no idea how this reputation ever would have come about if the various series were actually produced in chronological order.

If they were logical, they'd actually make an effort to ensure Enterprise, or at least Archer, got blown the fuck up after the first incident, because he's causing all sorts of chaos and problems, and apparently has zero problems betraying an ally if the mood takes him. His personal dislike of the Vulcans is so virulent that he's willing to side with complete strangers who imprison and kick the shit out of him, because he apparently doesn't understand the need to keep an eye of people you've had wars with.


A big problem, however, is apparently there is no way to detect a massive sensor array capable of scanning across star systems, dropped underneath a site that effectively has no technological power sources or emissions of any kind. This is clearly bullshit.

[hyzmarca]

Vulcan honesty wast explicitly a lie in TOS. Spock made the claim that Vulcans can't lie in The Enterprise Incident. However, he was saying that to a Romulan Commander who knew absolutely nothing about Vulcan culture in order to back up his claim that he intends to betray the Federation and defect.

Spock was lying when he said that Vulcans don't lie.

Basically, Spock claims "Vulcan's don't X" when he's doing X to people who know nothing about Vulcans so that they'll be less inclined to scrutinize his actions.

[Lago PARANOIA]

If the Vulcan really wanted to bootstrap their population from demographic oblivion, would a plan where they pulled an England on Scotland and just surrendered to the Romulans while furiously interbreeding and taking ahold of the cultural and political wheels work? If it wouldn't work without tweaks, what are the bare minimum amount of additional lucky breaks and whatnot would the Vulcans have to get to make the plan work?

[Josh_Kablack]

Hrm, contemplating using This as my desktop

[Lago PARANOIA]

So. Why did DS9 have a continual decline in ratings? Was it ahead of its time? Screwed by the network? People getting tired of Star Trek? Just had something 'off' to the series that it's hard to grok?

[Username17]

So. Why did DS9 have a continual decline in ratings? Was it ahead of its time? Screwed by the network? People getting tired of Star Trek? Just had something 'off' to the series that it's hard to grok?

Marketplace crowding. There were more networks and more genre shows at the end of DS9's run than at the beginning. While the pie was certainly growing, the share of the pie going to any show was going to shrink.

DS9 consistently beat Babylon 5, Voyager, and Buffy the Vampire Slayer. "Winning" meant getting 8% of the viewers in November of 1994 and 6% of viewers in November of 1997, but that's what a fractured audience and heavy competition will do to you. Also, it's hard to over estimate how crushingly dominant The X-Files became near the end of DS9's run. In November of 1997, X-Files rated in at 14.3% of the eyeballs. That's more than Next Generation ever got, and that was with a smaller and weaker field. The X-Files was crazy popular in the late nineties, and other shows were going to suffer even if there wasn't an attempt by Warner Brothers and Paramount to form their own networks and exclusivize content.

-Username17

[Whipstitch]

X-Files was the perfect storm, really. It was just nerdy and serialized enough to keep people hooked and to woo the nerd vote, but loose enough that anyone could drop in for an episode. Plus, the internet was hitting its stride just in time for an entire generation of TV bloggers to get their start as teenage mulder/scully shippers.

[OgreBattle]

Well when I realized that Captain Picard is cooler than any Star Wars character is around the point I figured Star Trek was cooler than Star Wars.



It has a lot of cool one-shot ideas that could sustain its own movie or show, like how every humanoid sapient was seeded by the first beings that happened to be humanoid but were completely alone in the galaxy.

[Lago PARANOIA]

So how would you guys fix the Prime Directive so that it became less immoral?

I mean, even beyond the obvious excess of the post-TNG viewpoint that the PD didn't allow you to intervene in planetary destruction the entire idea was pretty vile. I mean, yes, a vastly culturally, technologically, and demographically superior power interfering with your affairs can lead to some bad shit. But I don't think this protection is at the cost of having to endure centuries of, say, intraplanetary genocide and slavery.

Personally, I think that the PD should be scrapped and that Starfleet is henceforth run as a pure humanitarian organization.