Annoying Questions I'd Like Answered...

Schleiermacher · Post by **Schleiermacher** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:37 am

Probably not, it is an extant ethnic group after all. But context matters.

TiaC · Post by **TiaC** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:21 am

This is in Britain, pointing at a woman who they will both be working with, who is almost-certainly not an immigrant and saying "that Nubian-looking woman is so-and-so".

Orion · Post by **Orion** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:50 am

Pointing at people is usually racist.

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 4:06 pm

I'd go with "Her over there in the [colour] [dress/top/whatever]", to avoid worrying about race at all. Of course, if there's a work uniform, that may not work.

Shady314 · Post by **Shady314** » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:52 pm

Nubian isn't actually a racist term anymore than saying someone looks Irish, Arabic, Chinese etc. even if you know their nationality is probably (in this case) British.

Fwib wrote:I'd go with "Her over there in the [colour] [dress/top/whatever]", to avoid worrying about race at all. Of course, if there's a work uniform, that may not work.

Someone's skin color isn't a dirty word you should try to avoid saying. Thinking this may be why they said Nubian, which is sort of unusual, instead of just saying she was the black woman over there.

When it comes to accusations of racism it's best to give someone the benefit of the doubt. For all we know they dated a Nubian woman that bears a resemblance to this new coworker and that's why they used Nubian.

Pointing is actually considered somewhat rude however. At least in America.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:34 am

Do any of my fellow Australians know how to buy sweets without paying GST? Because after rent, that's my main expenditure, and they're talking about raising the GST. You know, instead of having a more progressive income tax (and closing loopholes around that), or perhaps some sort of tax on mining companies when they dig our resources up. We really need a catchy name for that. A tax for people who are mining. Digging Fee? Needs work.

Anyway, I don't know how legal tax evasion works. Can you avoid GST by bulk-buying from warehouses?

Blasted · Post by **Blasted** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 1:34 am

When I buy my mandollies to avoid the australia tax, I use o/s stores with free or cheap postage. I assume you could do the same with sweets, but I'm not sure if you'd want sweets that have spent 2 weeks in the back of a shipping container.
I suggest that the 10% you'd gain would be easier get by purchasing from outlet stores or buying home brand crap.
You can only avoid GST if it's a business cost.

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:04 am

Shady314 wrote:Pointing is actually considered somewhat rude however. At least in America.

The whole country decided that they'd take one of the killer apps of the last million years for fingers and bipedalism and deprecate it?

Wiseman · Post by **Wiseman** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:48 am

Why do people hate furries? I'm not a furry myself, but I don't get what all the hate against it is about? Hell, FurCon got gassed a few months back. What's with all the hatred?

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:54 am

Finger pointing gets a bad rap because it often accompanies/signifies unwanted attention. Pointing at something you want to buy in the store is fine, but someone pointing at me personally is something I associate with catcalling assholes or someone ratting you out to a teacher or the police. Also, sometimes in arguments people will violate as much of your personal space as they can without actually touching you and sticking a finger right in their face is a great way to do that bullshit.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:03 am

Wiseman wrote:Why do people hate furries? I'm not a furry myself, but I don't get what all the hate against it is about? Hell, FurCon got gassed a few months back. What's with all the hatred?

I think it's something in the neighborhood of how people used to view being openly gay. The attitude seems to be that someone's freaky for letting it show that much/admitting to it/etc.

This isn't helped by some furries just being obnoxiously pushy with it in their meatspace life and/or other media. Like here: http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Fur_Heresy

Or pushing the fursex super-hard, like here: http://img.4plebs.org/boards/tg/image/1 ... 577381.png

But more or less, some furries are cool, some aren't, assholes ruin everything. Same as everything else.

Shady314 · Post by **Shady314** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:04 am

Fwib wrote:
Shady314 wrote:Pointing at people is actually considered somewhat rude
The whole country decided that they'd take one of the killer apps of the last million years for fingers and bipedalism and deprecate it?

I could have written that clearer I suppose. I put in a bolded clarification.

Well I don't make etiquette, I just don't follow it and neither do the vast majority of Americans. But pointing at people is officially considered rude as is staring at them. Both at once is very rude. People still do it all the time and gesturing seems to be a loophole.

I've always assumed it was about shaming. To "point the finger" at someone is to blame them. You're also clearly drawing attention to them that they may not want but I really don't know.

EDIT: Don't know how I missed his post but what Whipstitch said is probably correct.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:43 am

Re: furries

Maxus wrote: I think it's something in the neighborhood of how people used to view being openly gay. The attitude seems to be that someone's freaky for letting it show that much/admitting to it/etc.

Pretty much this, although I'd add that the closest comparison is probably to the leather subculture. There's a taboo against openly flaunting one's sexuality in general and while much of the US has come around to the idea that expecting homosexuals to remain forever single and closeted is a cruel and unreasonable standard it is much harder to convince people that walking around in bondage gear or a fur suit is kosher.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 4:28 am

Basically Whipstitch nailed it. The furry subculture tends to be way more open about sex and sexuality than most, and that makes some people uncomfortable. So they're all painted as sexual deviants because some of them are really weird.

That being said I don't get why furries seem to get more hate than bronies, who have approximately the same percentage of vocal creeps in their fandom.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:39 am

All links are SFW, but the first and third may get you some odd looks

I think part of it is that furries tend to be in their teens and twenties with all that entails, from seeking identity and belonging, to hormones and 40+ years of progression from Kinsey's work. Plus they're usually nerds.

So you take lost generation and millennial nerds, give them an identity that I swear latches on hard to some nascent totemic longing in the human brain*, and then let them do their thing, which will involve lots of sex and sexual exploration, and then let "normal" people see that, you basically have a ready made group for labeling as "sexual deviants." And shit shows like CSI don't help, since they focus on the shittiest, creepiest tiny portion of the group.

Hell, this is the popular image of a furry:

Well, more accurately this, but...

But that's about as accurate an image of the average furry as Mitt Romney is an image of the average American. Fursuits are insanely expensive, and while a lot of furries might like to make one, just like a lot of Americans might like to make billions of dollars by exploiting the investment industry, they're not necessarily a majority.

In fact, the average furry is going to look more like this:

ok, more likely this, or, depending what time you're on the con floor, maybe this

But even those furs with the time, money and inclination to own a fursuit aren't out there fucking in them. I mean, would you fuck in a Brooks Brothers suit? Or a Gucci? Seriously, $600 is a low end fursuit, and you might spend more like $1,500. No one is fucking in these things. And this is to say nothing of the pure thermal logistics of energetic physical activity in 20+ pounds of foam and fake fur. When furs fuck, first of all, it's usually going to be in a hotel room, and second of all it's going to involve a lot less cloth and foam that would soak up the various associated fluids. The furry part of sex is going to be, at most, some ears, maybe a tail, and possible a weird-shaped silicone dildo, depending on how much disposable income those furs have.

But furrydom has a lot in common with other nerd communities. The main social gathering for furs is a furry con, and that's going to have all the same issues as an anime or comic convention. Admittedly, every con probably does have people fucking in a public place, or trying to, but when I say every con, I'm including comic and anime cons. Try telling me with a straight face that no one has ever gotten a handy in the hentai video room. And every fandom has those creepy old dudes, furrydom just has a specific pair of creepy old dudes that you can actually watch out for.

Basically, furries have all the otherness of anime or comic con goers, plus the otherness of cosplaying, and a pervasive reputation for fucking in costumes. Then there's the fact that a lot of fur characters look more like a cartoon animal than a humanoid animal and the very real possibility that a very high percentage of furs stumbled on furry art by googling cartoon characters at the hormone-riddled age of 13 or so, and so there's an added element of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN! WON'T SOMEBODY PLEASE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?" where normal people are afraid that the guy in the wolf suit is going to corrupt their kids, and a healthy dose of various misunderstandings ("Isn't that like bestiality?") and puritanical sexual mores ("Lights off, missionary position, clothes on is the only sex God allows!").

*Furs are people who identify with a specific animal, or combination of animals, usually for a reason, often having to do with symbolic associations of that animal. Then they gather around themselves representations of that animal, and, in some cases, wish to symbolically become that animal through costume and acting. This is fucking totemism, the only difference is that ancient man did it to gain power for a hunt, and modern fur is doing it to build an identity for themselves and find someone to mash genitals with.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 5:59 am

Prak wrote:Try telling me with a straight face that no one has ever gotten a handy in the hentai video room.

When Manifest started screening hentai, there was a "hands on desks" rule in place. I was a volunteer helper. No, I didn't say "I'd love to help out with screening porn for a room full of people!", that's just the way it works out when you volunteer to help "with whatever".

I can't speak for other conventions though, and there are similar "Ew, that is gross, go away, you're giving us a bad name" elements to anime conventions. Typically the men who weigh upwards of 400lbs (450 if you include the beard) yet decide they really want to dress as, for instance, Faye Valentine (Cowboy Bebop). Or the creepy guys who follow the girls in skimpy outfits and try to grope them or take upskirt photos without permission. Which is less "Don't be gross" and is more "an actual criminal offence".

That said, back in the day, furries had a reputation for being fucking annoying: going onto image boards and flooding page after page with shitty art (or even non-shitty art in non-furry categories) and then, when called out for it, crying about "fursecution" and telling all who would listen (and many who would not) about how their plight was exactly the same as that suffered by gay people, or indeed just like what Hitler did to the Jews. And when you trivialise other people's real problems by claiming they're equal to your drama, you can kindly go fuck yourself.

So a lot of the hate is thanks to those earlier days, and the long memories (when it comes to grudges) of us Gen Y folk on the Internets.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:09 am

Oh, definitely, yeah. There's a good bit of "/b/-ness" to the Furry fandom. Which is weird, given how much /b/ hates furries. Plus there's that whole... weird... fur nazi thing....

Starmaker · Post by **Starmaker** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 6:40 am

One, cartoon animals are or resemble characters from predominantly children's media. People who are known to dress as cartoon animals for sex are creepy much like people who dress as babies for sex. Sex by itself is icky; sexual arousal has been shown to lower squeamishness. Porn that's not for you is icky, it can't be helped.

Two, because it wasn't too long ago when a political candidate was attacked for playing WoW, normal furries generally don't bother trying to legitimize the hobby in the public consciousness, leaving the stage to Otherkin.

[url=http://www.tgdmb.com/viewtopic.php?p=137764#137764 wrote:FrankTrollman[/url]]No one will ever find scientific validation for people who believe that they are the reincarnated souls of Cloud from Final Fantasy VII from another universe. Because Cloud is fictional. And souls are fictional. And reincarnation is fictional. All of that shit is not real, and science will never "discover" it because it is fucking stupid. And everyone who believes in it is stupid.

And as science continues to march on, the people who believe that they are Na'Vi, or the reincarnations of bulldozers, or whatever the fuck will still be stupid. Scientology will never become "not reviled" by the rationalists. Because it is stupid. Otherkinism will never become "not reviled" by rationalists, because it is stupid.

People will advance cosmetic surgery and eventually even body transference. And then they will have access to all kinds of cool transhuman options. And that will be awesome. And some people will become tigers, and that will be awesome. And sometimes one of them will tell you that they became a tiger because they always had the soul of a tiger and got put into a human body by mistake of soul incarnation, and that will still be fucking stupid.

Count Arioch the 28th · Tue Jul 21, 2015 7:05 am

I am not a furry, I just like their porn. But I'm impressed with the fursuits in Prak's post. I can't see myself wearing one (prone to heatstroke, also I don't want to), but if I had the resources I'd actually like to learn to make them.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 8:03 am

I'm in the same boat, really. I certainly like ravens, and used to consider myself a furry when I was younger, but, eh. I'm more just a xenophile. Or extremely open to strange physiologies. But if I'm going identify with something non-human, really I identify with goblins.

I don't think I am a goblin, because I'm not (that kind of) crazy, but I certainly have a shitty enough self-image to identify with a goblin character in fantasy stories.

Fwib · Post by **Fwib** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 2:57 pm

Shady314 wrote:Well I don't make etiquette, I just don't follow it and neither do the vast majority of Americans. But pointing at people is officially considered rude as is staring at them. Both at once is very rude. People still do it all the time and gesturing seems to be a loophole.

I've always assumed it was about shaming. To "point the finger" at someone is to blame them. You're also clearly drawing attention to them that they may not want but I really don't know.

EDIT: Don't know how I missed his post but what Whipstitch said is probably correct.

So invading personal space, rather than pointing from a distance sufficient that just waving in a general direction is not enough? I'm sure that nearly all of us have had people invade our space, even outside of conflicts. In particular I remember a guy I used to meet at work who just didn't seem to get the message that he got way too close, no amount of stepping back seemed to work.

violence in the media · Tue Jul 21, 2015 3:48 pm

Fwib wrote:
Shady314 wrote:Pointing is actually considered somewhat rude however. At least in America.
The whole country decided that they'd take one of the killer apps of the last million years for fingers and bipedalism and deprecate it?

Relevant to this, there is something called The Disney Point that is meant to avoid offending people.

Meikle641 · Post by **Meikle641** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 10:56 pm

What about using knife hands?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:05 pm

Pointing knives at people is usually considered rude.

Shady314 · Post by **Shady314** » Tue Jul 21, 2015 11:06 pm

Fwib wrote:So invading personal space, rather than pointing from a distance sufficient that just waving in a general direction is not enough? I'm sure that nearly all of us have had people invade our space, even outside of conflicts. In particular I remember a guy I used to meet at work who just didn't seem to get the message that he got way too close, no amount of stepping back seemed to work.

Why would you need to invade personal space? Invading personal space is also considered rude. Proper etiquette acknowledges the three feet rule.

The truly polite thing to do is to bring someone over and introduce them. Without getting up in their face. Or you single them out somehow without pointing.