So there have been a number of threads about how Fighters aren't allowed nice things. I personally don't believe that, and when I was working on the Tome Fighter and Barbarian it seemed possible to give fighting guys equivalent things. I mean, I never believed that Batman was about the gadgets.... he was about awesome tactics that happened to be enhanced by the fact that he had high-quality equipment (I mean, is Batman going to lose a car chase because he only has a sportcar and not the Batmobile.... I think not).
So here is the premise: we accept that fighters CAN equal a magical character.
So give us a DnDesque problem, then brainstorm a number of nonmagical counters. Use action movies like Jame Bond, Batman episodes, or whatever that shows the nonmagical character who uses circumstances to his advantage. The best ideas we'll incorporate as TNE abilities.
I'll start:
Flying Monsters.
Dragons fly and breathe fire and manticores fly and shoot spikes, so the fighter....
-Ranged attacks, possible knocking crap out of the sky.
-Grabs onto a flying creature and forcably rides it so that it runs into or allows him to get close enough to attack the other flying creatures.
-Draws the flying monster in close (maybe with a ruse) and then knocks out its ability to fly, possibly by forcing it to run into a wall or mountain or something.
-Tosses a rope onto the flying creature and then pulls it down using leverage or entangling it.
Raising an Army
The Necromancer gets his army of undead and the cleric gets an angel army, so the fighter.....
-Does a speech in the town square that "fires people up" so that pluckiness overcomes their complete lack of martial training.
-Impresses a barbaric or martial race by killing the leader and assuming control.
-Catspaws the local army into attacking his enemy.
-Impresses a king with the severity of the situation and gets part of the army assigned to him.
-Finds the enemy of his enemies and gets them fired up.
-Trains and assembles a "crack team" that comes onstage only when needed and spends the rest of the time shining spoons in the castle. See also Ninja Army.
SO there is the beginning. I'm also open to rules ideas that limit the power of things that in DnD are problematic (like just making flying a lot more dangerous of a proposition in that hits cause you to fall and ranged accuracy goes to crap).
TNE: Nonmagical Fighter Idea Lab
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Spaghetti Western
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Problem
Fighters must expend resources (gold) to gain magical powers through items while wizards get those powers as part of their class features.
Solution
As fighters gain notoriety, assist nobility and generally do awesome stuff those in power (king, wizard, etc) give them or otherwise make available to them magical items as either appreciation for past deeds or as preparation for an deeds yet endured.
Specifics - at various levels fighters are granted magical items of level appropriate power with enough variation in selection to avoid overlap, ie you don't have to take a sword +2 if you already have an awesome sword.
Fighters must expend resources (gold) to gain magical powers through items while wizards get those powers as part of their class features.
Solution
As fighters gain notoriety, assist nobility and generally do awesome stuff those in power (king, wizard, etc) give them or otherwise make available to them magical items as either appreciation for past deeds or as preparation for an deeds yet endured.
Specifics - at various levels fighters are granted magical items of level appropriate power with enough variation in selection to avoid overlap, ie you don't have to take a sword +2 if you already have an awesome sword.
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Username17
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Master of the Weapon
-This was brought up by someone else. Martial characters should inherently make any weapon they wield better. Club masters should be able to pick up a broken chair leg and make it into a +2 Adamantine Club of Bad Guy Bumfuckery
Results of Training
-Via class martial characters should gain abilities that make them naturally better on the battle field
-Built for Battle: Fighters always count as one size larger whenever it benefits them in combat.
-Bonuses to Ability scores: +2 every four levels to a score of their choice. Martial characters are always pushing their physical limits and should come out better for it.
-More effective fists. Another point brought up by someone else. Fighters should always be better with their fists than anyone else even if they don't concentrate on it.
Grapple Moves
-There aren't any real rules for hurling your enemy into the ground or power bombing people's grandmothers I suggest some kind of special grappling rules/feats.
-There should be something that allows trained grapplers to constrict opponents
-Maybe some rules on using enemies as cover
Pushing
-I think being able to shoulder tackle your opponent and do damage just from the tackle. You should also be able to perform various maneuvers with the tacks (sweeping the legs for example)
-I think There should be an option for just using a push but if there are throw rules then that would cover it.
Sunder
-You should be able to render natural weapons useless. Break the tail, the arm, the claw with a sunder attempt.
Disarm
-Disarming can be made a lot more deadly. get an attempt to sling an item out out of the hand of someone is all well and good but what if you could do it as a reaction? If you could sling an opponent's scroll right out of their hand as they use it?
Using the skillz
-Appraise: increase sunder damage.
-Balance: To resist bull rushes, trips, etc
-Climb: You can actually climb on to enemies that are bigger than you. There should then be special feats that give you combat options when doing so. (Like directing an attack at the neck of a dragon)
-Jump: use it instead of reflex if you have an appropriate ability. There should be tremendous jumping ranges and related combat abilities for martial characters.
Perception: Should get abilities that allow people with high numbers of these to get advanced sight and hearing. Things like blind sense and true sight.
-Ride: there should be any number of riding tricks you can pull. Like jumping off the back of your flying mount to perform a full attack before landing on it again.
-Sense Motive: Power levels, predicting their next attack to get bonuses to dodge it or negate it, predicting movement.Spending your turn sensing motive then moving as if you had delayed your turn to intercept or foil an action or whatever else you would normally do on your turn.
-Survival: you should develop advanced survival based instincts. Gaining abilities like scent or tremorsense from having a high survival bonus.
-Use Rope: You should be able to tie people up in different ways. Some that cause pain, inflict statuses (you can be tied up in such a painful way that it actually sickens or paralyzes you)
Ranged
-Trick Shots should be available to anyone with great skill with a ranged weapon
-More options for precision damage
-suppressive fire. Higher level shooters should be able to lock down an area by sacrificing accuracy/damage.
-Ranged attack effects. Shooting someone in the eye should count for something.
-Against Frank's comment. Magic items seem to be a perfectly sensible way to interact with the game physics.
-This was brought up by someone else. Martial characters should inherently make any weapon they wield better. Club masters should be able to pick up a broken chair leg and make it into a +2 Adamantine Club of Bad Guy Bumfuckery
Results of Training
-Via class martial characters should gain abilities that make them naturally better on the battle field
-Built for Battle: Fighters always count as one size larger whenever it benefits them in combat.
-Bonuses to Ability scores: +2 every four levels to a score of their choice. Martial characters are always pushing their physical limits and should come out better for it.
-More effective fists. Another point brought up by someone else. Fighters should always be better with their fists than anyone else even if they don't concentrate on it.
Grapple Moves
-There aren't any real rules for hurling your enemy into the ground or power bombing people's grandmothers I suggest some kind of special grappling rules/feats.
-There should be something that allows trained grapplers to constrict opponents
-Maybe some rules on using enemies as cover
Pushing
-I think being able to shoulder tackle your opponent and do damage just from the tackle. You should also be able to perform various maneuvers with the tacks (sweeping the legs for example)
-I think There should be an option for just using a push but if there are throw rules then that would cover it.
Sunder
-You should be able to render natural weapons useless. Break the tail, the arm, the claw with a sunder attempt.
Disarm
-Disarming can be made a lot more deadly. get an attempt to sling an item out out of the hand of someone is all well and good but what if you could do it as a reaction? If you could sling an opponent's scroll right out of their hand as they use it?
Using the skillz
-Appraise: increase sunder damage.
-Balance: To resist bull rushes, trips, etc
-Climb: You can actually climb on to enemies that are bigger than you. There should then be special feats that give you combat options when doing so. (Like directing an attack at the neck of a dragon)
-Jump: use it instead of reflex if you have an appropriate ability. There should be tremendous jumping ranges and related combat abilities for martial characters.
Perception: Should get abilities that allow people with high numbers of these to get advanced sight and hearing. Things like blind sense and true sight.
-Ride: there should be any number of riding tricks you can pull. Like jumping off the back of your flying mount to perform a full attack before landing on it again.
-Sense Motive: Power levels, predicting their next attack to get bonuses to dodge it or negate it, predicting movement.Spending your turn sensing motive then moving as if you had delayed your turn to intercept or foil an action or whatever else you would normally do on your turn.
-Survival: you should develop advanced survival based instincts. Gaining abilities like scent or tremorsense from having a high survival bonus.
-Use Rope: You should be able to tie people up in different ways. Some that cause pain, inflict statuses (you can be tied up in such a painful way that it actually sickens or paralyzes you)
Ranged
-Trick Shots should be available to anyone with great skill with a ranged weapon
-More options for precision damage
-suppressive fire. Higher level shooters should be able to lock down an area by sacrificing accuracy/damage.
-Ranged attack effects. Shooting someone in the eye should count for something.
-Against Frank's comment. Magic items seem to be a perfectly sensible way to interact with the game physics.
Last edited by MGuy on Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:18 pm, edited 6 times in total.
Flying monsters - the flying monster has to be able to attack from range to bother the fighter, right? So deflect the arrows or reflect the dragon breath off your shield right back at the monster. Or if it's going to swoop down and grab someone, the fighter should be able to grab on to it in the brief moment it's within reach.
Armies - a fighter type might well be the expert in constructing or maximizing the effect of temporary fortifications (see: Rorkes drift). Maybe he's an expert in tactics who can decoy half the enemy somewhere useless, or even into fighting itself or its allies. Are we considering roguish characters as a separate type, or does 'fighter' cover any non-spellcaster?
Armies - a fighter type might well be the expert in constructing or maximizing the effect of temporary fortifications (see: Rorkes drift). Maybe he's an expert in tactics who can decoy half the enemy somewhere useless, or even into fighting itself or its allies. Are we considering roguish characters as a separate type, or does 'fighter' cover any non-spellcaster?
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Judging__Eagle
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Magic Items =/= Unique Powers
They're either Mundane, or Everyone can get along without one, or both.
Magic Items shouldn't be required to compete. They should be either flavour, or give an option.
The Fighter incites terror in his foes with the sound of his voice; the Wizard uses a wand. The Fighter can also pick up "The Axe of Blood", and incite terror.
A fighter should be able to walk around without a magic weapon, or even use an improvised weapon, and be effective.
They're either Mundane, or Everyone can get along without one, or both.
Magic Items shouldn't be required to compete. They should be either flavour, or give an option.
The Fighter incites terror in his foes with the sound of his voice; the Wizard uses a wand. The Fighter can also pick up "The Axe of Blood", and incite terror.
A fighter should be able to walk around without a magic weapon, or even use an improvised weapon, and be effective.
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While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
While everyone's Philosophy is not in accord, that doesn't mean we're not on board.
MGuy stop thinking in DnD terms, this is TNE
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Just a heads up... Your post is pregnant... When you miss that many periods it's just a given.
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Errr.. MGuy, you missed the entire point of the thread, Well done. The format is Problem, then several possible solutions.
Problem:
Ghosts, ghoulies, and things that hide in shadows.
Lots of monsters such as ghosts and ethereal creatures can't be hit by physical means.
Solutions:
[*]Reaches out and pulls them into the real world for a period.
[*]Cuts reality open and steps through into the netherworld.
[*]Any weapons held or used automatically affect them (useless because it means that the etherealness has no real effect)
Errr.... these are all a bit shitty and not like the others.
But they're always bigger than me
Monsters are normally huge.
Solutions:
[*]The fighter can grow larger somehow
[*]All large monsters can be hamstrung to slow them down and then finished off
[*]Climb up the monsters and rip out their eyes (God of War style)
[*]The fighter is just that strong: enough to wrestle a giant squid to death
Problem:
Ghosts, ghoulies, and things that hide in shadows.
Lots of monsters such as ghosts and ethereal creatures can't be hit by physical means.
Solutions:
[*]Reaches out and pulls them into the real world for a period.
[*]Cuts reality open and steps through into the netherworld.
[*]Any weapons held or used automatically affect them (useless because it means that the etherealness has no real effect)
Errr.... these are all a bit shitty and not like the others.
But they're always bigger than me
Monsters are normally huge.
Solutions:
[*]The fighter can grow larger somehow
[*]All large monsters can be hamstrung to slow them down and then finished off
[*]Climb up the monsters and rip out their eyes (God of War style)
[*]The fighter is just that strong: enough to wrestle a giant squid to death
Last edited by Parthenon on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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RandomCasualty2
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On the subject of flight, the easiest thing is just to let fighters be good with bows by default. It's really ability scores that totally fuck fighters in D&D, because melee uses str and ranged uses dex. To fix it, you must get rid of the MAD and just have a unified combat skill or use something similar to SAME where you apply the same stat to attack/damage regardless of if you're using a bow or sword. If fighters can competently arrow people, then they become a factor against flying creatures. Nobody worries about flight in Shadowrun after all.
As far as summons, honestly, I don't see why summons shouldn't be treated the same as hirelings anyway. It should cost resource to summon/bind angels, just like it costs resources to hire a bunch of mercs. It means that you have to have high level guys offering their services to people in towns or what not, but I don't see why it can't be like King's Bounty where you run around to giant havens and hire giants, or get dragons from dragon lairs. Necromancer lords have skeletal armies, and warlord fighters have humanoids, giants and maybe even dragons.
In the case of self replicating armies, like shadows or vampires, the easiest way is probably to just go with the King's Bounty solution to that and just say that if you get too many they get a mind of their own and turn on you. That way it gives reason why such creatures don't overrun the world. The necromancer who created them doesn't want to make too many shadows, otherwise he loses control over all of them.
As far as summons, honestly, I don't see why summons shouldn't be treated the same as hirelings anyway. It should cost resource to summon/bind angels, just like it costs resources to hire a bunch of mercs. It means that you have to have high level guys offering their services to people in towns or what not, but I don't see why it can't be like King's Bounty where you run around to giant havens and hire giants, or get dragons from dragon lairs. Necromancer lords have skeletal armies, and warlord fighters have humanoids, giants and maybe even dragons.
In the case of self replicating armies, like shadows or vampires, the easiest way is probably to just go with the King's Bounty solution to that and just say that if you get too many they get a mind of their own and turn on you. That way it gives reason why such creatures don't overrun the world. The necromancer who created them doesn't want to make too many shadows, otherwise he loses control over all of them.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Etherealness:
-In TNE, all ethereal enemies must become unethereal for a few seconds if they want to attack. The Fighter is bad enough to smack them whenever they do so.
-Fighters, by virtue of the setting, can become enlightened masters of the sword who are enlightened enough to smack a ghost with a table leg.
-Ghosts aren't ethereal in the DnD sense and you can punch them normally and have it take effect.
Equipment:
-All fighters are good with swords, clubs, axes, staves, bows, crowbows, slings, rocks, spears, knifes, and their fists, no exceptions. All weapons are equally good in the hands of a master.
- No magic weapons of doom. Any magical weapons involved in the story are plot devices which are equally good at stabbing as a normal weapon and are only kept around to do plot stuff.
-Fighters can improvise a weapon out of anything at all, even thin air.
-In TNE, all ethereal enemies must become unethereal for a few seconds if they want to attack. The Fighter is bad enough to smack them whenever they do so.
-Fighters, by virtue of the setting, can become enlightened masters of the sword who are enlightened enough to smack a ghost with a table leg.
-Ghosts aren't ethereal in the DnD sense and you can punch them normally and have it take effect.
Equipment:
-All fighters are good with swords, clubs, axes, staves, bows, crowbows, slings, rocks, spears, knifes, and their fists, no exceptions. All weapons are equally good in the hands of a master.
- No magic weapons of doom. Any magical weapons involved in the story are plot devices which are equally good at stabbing as a normal weapon and are only kept around to do plot stuff.
-Fighters can improvise a weapon out of anything at all, even thin air.
I like to look at various spells and think of an angle where you might be able to counter them by mundane means, aside from simply "willpower." For example, in "Heroes" Mr. Bennet, the resident Badass Normal, counters mind-reading by being fluent in many languages. He just starts thinking in another language, so that the guy reading his surface thoughts can't understand what he's thinking.
If we aren't working with DnD then I think there is a pretty cool way to distinguish fighters and mages that let's them have nice things.
Everyone uses magic. Mages use it outside themselves for effects, Fighters use it inside themselves to buff themselves and let them do superhuman things.
Soooo, Mages can fly/let someone else fly; Fighters can jump super high and eventually fly.
Both can throw fireballs.
Mages can make someone invisible; Fighters can blend into the background.
Everyone uses magic. Mages use it outside themselves for effects, Fighters use it inside themselves to buff themselves and let them do superhuman things.
Soooo, Mages can fly/let someone else fly; Fighters can jump super high and eventually fly.
Both can throw fireballs.
Mages can make someone invisible; Fighters can blend into the background.
Ahh my mistake on the format. Nice to see that some people reposted some of my ideas...
Ethereal Creatures
-Chance to hit with mundane weapons while being wielded by fighter.
-Reduced damage taken from mundane sources.
Flying Monsters
- I second Orca's solution.
- Special maneuvers usable against flying creatures.
- Abilities with no jump limit.
-Flying should be a difficult exercise to keep up when taking damage. taking heavy damage in the air should threaten to knock flying creatures out of the sky.
Larger Monsters
- Fighters could gain an ability that allows them to count as a size larger.
- Maneuver specialists, should be able to attain enough bonuses to their maneuvers to topple the larger, more steady creatures.
The Availability of Phlebotinum
-Certain utility spells should be available for everyone to use via rituals. Opening Portals, Sacrificing Souls, Blessings, etc to any one who might know the steps. Though everyone shouldn't have auto access to it until later levels. This one comes from 4e.
Ethereal Creatures
-Chance to hit with mundane weapons while being wielded by fighter.
-Reduced damage taken from mundane sources.
Flying Monsters
- I second Orca's solution.
- Special maneuvers usable against flying creatures.
- Abilities with no jump limit.
-Flying should be a difficult exercise to keep up when taking damage. taking heavy damage in the air should threaten to knock flying creatures out of the sky.
Larger Monsters
- Fighters could gain an ability that allows them to count as a size larger.
- Maneuver specialists, should be able to attain enough bonuses to their maneuvers to topple the larger, more steady creatures.
The Availability of Phlebotinum
-Certain utility spells should be available for everyone to use via rituals. Opening Portals, Sacrificing Souls, Blessings, etc to any one who might know the steps. Though everyone shouldn't have auto access to it until later levels. This one comes from 4e.
The more I see what people see as "problems", the more I think the most egregious offenders are a product of the physics engine and the lack of a social abilities for all characters.
I mean, fixing the following sample of things makes a fighter better automatically: ethereal, invisible, and flying. Make these things less trump-like and suddenly a number of character types are possible.
By the same token, the magic system can be rewritten to allow EVERYONE the ability to interact with it. For example, rather than giving the fighter the magical ability to punch through unbreakable Walls of Force at a certain level and rogue the ability to temporarily disable Walls of Force at a certain level, you can simplify the whole system by just making Walls of Force breakable.
Wow, not using exception-based design really does make a better game. Going the Earthdawn route of just making everything magical is the worse of both worlds: it has the flaws of exception-based design and limits the kinds of characters that are in your setting.
I mean, fixing the following sample of things makes a fighter better automatically: ethereal, invisible, and flying. Make these things less trump-like and suddenly a number of character types are possible.
By the same token, the magic system can be rewritten to allow EVERYONE the ability to interact with it. For example, rather than giving the fighter the magical ability to punch through unbreakable Walls of Force at a certain level and rogue the ability to temporarily disable Walls of Force at a certain level, you can simplify the whole system by just making Walls of Force breakable.
Wow, not using exception-based design really does make a better game. Going the Earthdawn route of just making everything magical is the worse of both worlds: it has the flaws of exception-based design and limits the kinds of characters that are in your setting.
Last edited by K on Thu Aug 13, 2009 8:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JonSetanta
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Here is a ideal of a sword-swinging brute maniac in fantasy:
Rakan of Negima.
He flies, knows a few spells such as an Exalted-style-Perfect-Defense "temporary invincibility", summons swords, and can move faster than sight.
If a fantasy warrior can't do that shit, it can't play games with mages.
The series picks up at chapter 186 by the way; it's when the Earth team travels to Eberron.... I mean, the 'magic world'. Far less pantyshots, far more action.
Perhaps now that you've done same, something will actually stick.
It's a setting-wide change, which means a lead designer in charge of game mechanic needs to make that declaration; no amount of 'helpers' in a project can make that shift.
Are you serious about this?
Rakan of Negima.
He flies, knows a few spells such as an Exalted-style-Perfect-Defense "temporary invincibility", summons swords, and can move faster than sight.
If a fantasy warrior can't do that shit, it can't play games with mages.
The series picks up at chapter 186 by the way; it's when the Earth team travels to Eberron.... I mean, the 'magic world'. Far less pantyshots, far more action.
Every time the topic comes up I've been writing that since I got here.K wrote:...you can simplify the whole system by just making Walls of Force breakable.
Perhaps now that you've done same, something will actually stick.
It's a setting-wide change, which means a lead designer in charge of game mechanic needs to make that declaration; no amount of 'helpers' in a project can make that shift.
Are you serious about this?
Last edited by JonSetanta on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
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Judging__Eagle
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Larger Monsters:
-Fighters do not have to deal with a horrible rape radius
That shit is dumb, and bad.
One option could be:
-use a sheild, get in close, not get attacked
An other option:
-attacking advance
--when attacked, a creature may attack back, but then they can't move any further, unless they have more attacks left
so, a fighter can get close to a hydra, and when it tries to attack him when he makes an attack. If he hits, the hydra's attack is negated.
The fighter counts as having used up one of his 'normal' attacks like this.
Seriously, I don't see why a fighter can't strike a tentacle, giant arm, lunging dragon head, or anything else that has reach.
-Fighters do not have to deal with a horrible rape radius
That shit is dumb, and bad.
One option could be:
-use a sheild, get in close, not get attacked
An other option:
-attacking advance
--when attacked, a creature may attack back, but then they can't move any further, unless they have more attacks left
so, a fighter can get close to a hydra, and when it tries to attack him when he makes an attack. If he hits, the hydra's attack is negated.
The fighter counts as having used up one of his 'normal' attacks like this.
Seriously, I don't see why a fighter can't strike a tentacle, giant arm, lunging dragon head, or anything else that has reach.
I agree. It seems like a massive cop-out when someone asks the question "How do I make mundanes competitive" and someone answers by saying "they can summon giant swords and shoot lightning out their ass! And if they can't they can't exist in a world with mages!"Going the Earthdawn route of just making everything magical is the worse of both worlds: it has the flaws of exception-based design and limits the kinds of characters that are in your setting.
As I've said before, I think the solution is simply to make general solutions to spell obstacles. There are countless examples of these workarounds in media, such as the examples I've already given in this and other thread.
The only reason that obstacles like a Wall of Force become insurmountable has nothing to do with the fact that Fighters can't shit lightning, it has to do with the fact that some dick made the concerted design decision to say "you just can't do anything to it by mundane means."
And this can go either way. You could just as easily make it very simple to counter magic by mundane means. For example, if your "Hold Person" works like "Shadow Snap" from "The Slayers" then that means you can easily dispel it with a properly directed light source (or redirection of an existing light source).
It's all a matter of design choices.
Last edited by Caedrus on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
I think there are two factors at work to make fighters useless in DnD.
1) Most magical stuff can only be countered by magic.
2) Many magical effects completely circumvent existing mechanics or the game world or create new ones of their own
On top of that you have tons of spells that are just too good, but that is easier to fix.
Basically mages get arbitrary "I win unless you have [insert narrow list here]" abilities and fighters don't. Some of these can be fixed by letting mundanes interact with them (Wall of Force). But others need to be given to everyone in my opinion (or rather: everyone needs to have equal access to world-altering powers). You just can't counter being able to teleport by creating a special material that blocks teleportation. The fighter still can't teleport.
1) Most magical stuff can only be countered by magic.
2) Many magical effects completely circumvent existing mechanics or the game world or create new ones of their own
On top of that you have tons of spells that are just too good, but that is easier to fix.
Basically mages get arbitrary "I win unless you have [insert narrow list here]" abilities and fighters don't. Some of these can be fixed by letting mundanes interact with them (Wall of Force). But others need to be given to everyone in my opinion (or rather: everyone needs to have equal access to world-altering powers). You just can't counter being able to teleport by creating a special material that blocks teleportation. The fighter still can't teleport.
Murtak
I'm of the opinion that primary melee characters should get some kind of inherent magic resistance as they grow stronger / have longer careers. They've been in the shit; their force of personality and willpower is strong enough that magic -just isn't as effective- against them. Not just magic resistance, but a touch-range anti-magic field.
So your average commoner may not be able to affect that wall of force, sure. But Galahad the High Warrior of Elevated AssKicking can stride on up to that and shatter it with a few blows from his weapon. That kind of thing.
So your average commoner may not be able to affect that wall of force, sure. But Galahad the High Warrior of Elevated AssKicking can stride on up to that and shatter it with a few blows from his weapon. That kind of thing.
Then by going along with the thinking above the simple answer would be to nerf teleport. Instead of being able to do it instantly (IE when it matters) it is a long process (a'la ritual) and leaves room for you to get fucked in the ass (leaves a hole that people can follow you through until you do a closing ritual). There's been an idea circulating in the rebalancing the scales thread that has you only being able to teleport to places you've already been.You just can't counter being able to teleport by creating a special material that blocks teleportation. The fighter still can't teleport.
Last edited by MGuy on Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:16 pm, edited 2 times in total.
And the fighter still can't teleport, goddamnit. The problem isn't necessarily with the spell itself (though that one is also problematic) but with the fact that the wizard is allowed to disregard the world the fighter lives in entirely.MGuy wrote:Then by going along with the thinking above the simple answer would be to nerf teleport. Instead of being able to do it instantly (IE when it matters) it is a long process (a'la ritual) and leaves room for you to get fucked in the ass (leaves a hole that people can follow you through until you do a closing ritual). There's been an idea circulating in the rebalancing the scales thread that has you only being able to teleport to places you've already been.You just can't counter being able to teleport by creating a special material that blocks teleportation. The fighter still can't teleport.
And the only solution I can see is to give the fighter similar powers. They do not need to get teleport, but they do need to get something on a similar scale to what the wizard can do. And if that means a level 20 fighter types can punch a ravine into a mountain that is good. Merely giving him a little spell resistance, a couple bonus points or the ability to dispel a wall of force doesn't cut it. Not when the wizard doesn't even care about this world anymore. And unless you are prepared to rework 90% of the wizard's spell list and half of the monsters that is the way things stand - the wizard ignores reality and you are discussing whether the fighter needs +1 or +2 to hit.
Murtak
An example:
Some classes get access to plane shift. You decide you do want people to be able to visit other planes, but you don't want them to be able to do it anywhere. So you reword the spell (or make it a ritual or whatever) to only work in places where "the planes are close to each other" (GM fiat really, but logically deducable - Prime <-> Fire portals can be opened in volcanoes). This portal takes a day to create and lasts for a week.
You are pleased with your work, but want to expand on it. So you allow rangers to track paths between planes. They too need to find congruent spots, but they may start further from the congruent spot, say a couple of miles, and then they walk a path that gradually alters from an ash-filled valley on the Prime to a magma flow on the Plane of Fire. They take about as long as a caster, need to actually carry everything they want to produce, but leave no awkward portal hanging around for a week and can actually see where they are going.
And lastly you let the barbarian enter the shadowy world of his ancestors (the ethereal plane) via half an hour's worth of meditation. He can take others along if he leads them in meditation.
Voila, three methods of planeshifting. All have their pros and cons, all allow you to bring the entire group, all should fit within the flavor of the classes and all of them affect the story to a similar degree. Note that there is no reason at all to keep the noncaster abilities "mundane". They live in a world chock full of magic after all. To the barbarian, entering the spirit world is probably quite natural (not necessarily easy or mundane, but not as weird as, say, casting spells). How the game's mechanic classify the ability is a different matter of course - it may well be a spell-like ability. And the ranger's ability may be extraordinary, allowing him to leave the current plane even while bound to a horse in an antimagic field. You can decide on these details afterward and next to anything can work out fine with the right flavor text. But if you start worrying about only giving nonmagical abilities to those classes you are starting out in the wrong place. Basically, do the mechanics first, then justify them later if you truly feel you need your fighter to not command magic.
Some classes get access to plane shift. You decide you do want people to be able to visit other planes, but you don't want them to be able to do it anywhere. So you reword the spell (or make it a ritual or whatever) to only work in places where "the planes are close to each other" (GM fiat really, but logically deducable - Prime <-> Fire portals can be opened in volcanoes). This portal takes a day to create and lasts for a week.
You are pleased with your work, but want to expand on it. So you allow rangers to track paths between planes. They too need to find congruent spots, but they may start further from the congruent spot, say a couple of miles, and then they walk a path that gradually alters from an ash-filled valley on the Prime to a magma flow on the Plane of Fire. They take about as long as a caster, need to actually carry everything they want to produce, but leave no awkward portal hanging around for a week and can actually see where they are going.
And lastly you let the barbarian enter the shadowy world of his ancestors (the ethereal plane) via half an hour's worth of meditation. He can take others along if he leads them in meditation.
Voila, three methods of planeshifting. All have their pros and cons, all allow you to bring the entire group, all should fit within the flavor of the classes and all of them affect the story to a similar degree. Note that there is no reason at all to keep the noncaster abilities "mundane". They live in a world chock full of magic after all. To the barbarian, entering the spirit world is probably quite natural (not necessarily easy or mundane, but not as weird as, say, casting spells). How the game's mechanic classify the ability is a different matter of course - it may well be a spell-like ability. And the ranger's ability may be extraordinary, allowing him to leave the current plane even while bound to a horse in an antimagic field. You can decide on these details afterward and next to anything can work out fine with the right flavor text. But if you start worrying about only giving nonmagical abilities to those classes you are starting out in the wrong place. Basically, do the mechanics first, then justify them later if you truly feel you need your fighter to not command magic.
Murtak