The Gaming Den

Midnight_v wrote:
...Trojan condoms are terrible for instance...

Well shit...

*pops Midnight's balloon too*

I don't really care how you define quality. Because "quality" is subjective and very often non-quantifiable.

On the other hand, sales are indicative of usage. Meaning that many, many people are in fact playing Pathfinder. And that's to a large extent verified even in the Den, given the number of people who've complained that their group wants to move to Pathfinder.

So, based on you and Sinister's worldview, the only way to explain this is:

-> Pathfinder players are all idiots who play a low-quality product.

When in fact the reality is probably this:

-> Pathfinder players found a certain quality in Pathfinder that they liked, which is why they are playing Pathfinder now.

Because really, the first explanation is just self-serving crap. Everyone likes to think "their" system is the hottest.

So rather than whining about how Paizo sucks, maybe you people should start thinking in terms of "Why does Paizo sell?"

Zinegata wrote:So rather than whining about how Paizo sucks, maybe you people should start thinking in terms of "Why does Paizo sell?"

Paizo "sells" because it's the biggest game in town and it has an air of legitimacy as the inheritors of the 3.x fantasy game, with their reputation being built on their history of selling published adventures and bolstered by their "open playtest" and other brilliant marketing decisions that have nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of their game. People who still want new content for their d20 fantasy games can buy Paizo's PF products or they can surf the net for homebrew. As far as I know, nobody's publishing any other 3.x books these days. And all the people who don't want to play 4e and are thus disappointed that WotC won't be releasing any more 3.x sourcebooks can buy Paizo books instead.

And people will buy Paizo's books regardless of the "quality" of their content, because the fact that it is a bound-and-published hardcover means that it is "official" and not "some houserules from the internet."

It doesn't really matter "why Paizo sells," though, because The Den isn't a company with a competing product, it's a bunch of random gamers on the internet who like to talk game design theory. So no one here is trying to design or settle on a marketing strategy (except maybe Lago, who has a bizarre fetish for starting threads about how WotC should do 5th edition down to the cover art on the core books).

Zinegata wrote:So, based on you and Sinister's worldview, the only way to explain this is:

-> [Nazis] are all idiots who [have a shitty society].

When in fact the reality is probably this:

-> [Nazis] found a certain quality in [Killing all the Jews] that they liked, which is why they are [Killing all the Jews] now.

Because really, the first explanation is just self-serving crap. Everyone likes to think "their" system is the hottest.

So rather than whining about how Nazis suck, maybe you people should start thinking in terms of "Why does Nazism sell?"

Fixed for you.

Now can we stop pretending that a large number of people liking something makes it good?

For Valor wrote:

Midnight_v wrote:
...Trojan condoms are terrible for instance...

Well shit...

You expect something different from a product named after the horse that, having been accepted (with the assumption of safety) into the base, bursts open to unleash loads of little men?

Seriously it's like they held a "What's the worst name for a condom you can think of?" contest and used the winner as their brand name.

Kaelik wrote:I am too stupid to understand. I am too proud to read.

Hey, look, one of the self-serving idiots who thinks his own stuff is so good and who flies into a rage whenever the real world intrudes into his fantasy.

Again, I don't care what you think is quality, because it's just subjective BS from an asshole.

For Valor wrote:

Midnight_v wrote:
...Trojan condoms are terrible for instance...

Well shit...

I don't know what midnight is talking about. These are a particular favorite of mine.

Archmage wrote:Paizo "sells" because it's the biggest game in town and it has an air of legitimacy as the inheritors of the 3.x fantasy game, with their reputation being built on their history of selling published adventures and bolstered by their "open playtest" and other brilliant marketing decisions that have nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of their game.

Oh, I agree. But I'm not arguing whether or not Pathfinder is mechanically sound.

What I'm pointing out is that quality is more than just what Sinister, Midnight, and Kaelik thinks should be a high quality game.

So instead, ask yourself: Why is "legitimacy" more important to a lot of players over mechanical soundness. Why is this their "quality"?

Because really, I'm beginning to see this discussion become very stale. We're seeing a lot of bashing, but we're not seeing a lot of actual analysis as to why Paizo sells despite being mechanically unsound.

Zinegata wrote:

Archmage wrote:Paizo "sells" because it's the biggest game in town and it has an air of legitimacy as the inheritors of the 3.x fantasy game, with their reputation being built on their history of selling published adventures and bolstered by their "open playtest" and other brilliant marketing decisions that have nothing to do with the mechanical soundness of their game.

Oh, I agree. But I'm not arguing whether or not Pathfinder is mechanically sound.

What I'm pointing out is that quality is more than just what Sinister, Midnight, and Kaelik thinks should be a high quality game.

So instead, ask yourself: Why is "legitimacy" more important to a lot of players over mechanical soundness. Why is this their "quality"?

Because really, I'm beginning to see this discussion become very stale. We're seeing a lot of bashing, but we're not seeing a lot of actual analysis as to why Paizo sells despite being mechanically unsound.

Zine, don't be stupid. The answer to that is very, very obvious.

Good marketing.

Seriously, that's it. Art is marketing. The playtest was marketing. The booth at all the conventions is also marketing. Analyzing rules isn't something you do when flipping through the book. Looking at the art is. If something has good art, but bad rules you won't know that until you go home.

Now, did I explain that simply enough for you?

The US consumer report tested out condoms and Trojan came out the worse on all the metrics they test condoms on. Trojans are also the best selling.

As for Paizo, I don't hate them. I will even buy their products in the future because I like the art and there are things I can salvage (though I'll probably buy them on the second-hand gray market).

I mean, 3.X is the best edition of DnD ever made, and they are the only one's making anything remotely useful for 3.X. It doesn't take a genius to put those two things together and assume a baseline of success for their company.

ubernoob wrote:I am also too stupid to read

Again, ubernoob:

1) I agreed with Archmage that good marketing is a major reason why Paizo is successful. Making your entire post a complete waste of time.

2) We also agreed that a major component of that marketing is presenting itself as a legitimate product.

I then asked people to do their own analysis: Why is legitimacy important? Why is it apparently more important than mechanical soundness, which nobody is contesting sucks for Pathfinder?

Because again, the discussion here is getting really stale and revolves around bashing Pathfinder... about things that we've already bashed them about since the first day it's come out.

So why not instead figure out what they're doing right and apply it to a more mechanically sound game?

Heyyy, those are the condoms I use!

In other news, I think we've successfully answered the question "Why does Paizo sell?", as well as needlessly bashed Zine. Let's stop that now.

For Valor wrote: as well as needlessly bashed Zine.

I don't quite understand what you mean. It's the 'needlessly' part that confuses me.

Zinegata wrote:

ubernoob wrote:I am also too stupid to read

Again, ubernoob:

1) I agreed with Archmage that good marketing is a major reason why Paizo is successful. Making your entire post a complete waste of time.

2) We also agreed that a major component of that marketing is presenting itself as a legitimate product.

I then asked people to do their own analysis: Why is legitimacy important? Why is it apparently more important than mechanical soundness, which nobody is contesting sucks for Pathfinder?

Because again, the discussion here is getting really stale and revolves around bashing Pathfinder... about things that we've already bashed them about since the first day it's come out.

So why not instead figure out what they're doing right and apply it to a more mechanically sound game?

Correction, you are too stupid to write. I literally just told you exactly why Pathfinder is successful. In a very simple and easy way. I've *already answered* your question. You know, the one you actually asked. Let me show you:

Zinegata wrote:So instead, ask yourself: Why is "legitimacy" more important to a lot of players over mechanical soundness. Why is this their "quality"?

This is random word vomit that is not an actual question.

Zinegata wrote:Because really, I'm beginning to see this discussion become very stale. We're seeing a lot of bashing, but we're not seeing a lot of actual analysis as to why Paizo sells despite being mechanically unsound.

This is an actual request.

Again, the only place you actually make a request is here:

Zinegata wrote:We're seeing a lot of bashing, but we're not seeing a lot of actual analysis as to why Paizo sells despite being mechanically unsound.

And that's a stupid request. You are stupid and should feel stupid.

PS: Making a quote with the ubernoob tag on it is called a straw man and only makes you sound even more intellectually dishonest than you are stupid. We here at the den can forgive stupidity. Straw man, not so much. Read what you've written and other people have written before you word vomit next time. I'm putting you back on ignore in the mean time.

For Valor wrote:In other news, I think we've successfully answered the question "Why does Paizo sell?"

Yeah, K and Archmage covered it well enough.

To be perfectly honest I was being rhetorical to Midnight with my first question, because my whole point for bringing up the sales figures was "Quality is subjective" anyway.

ubernoob wrote:I am too stupid to understand. Again

Hey, look, ubernoob is trying to gain credit for what Archmage already said.

Again.

Proving yet again that he is a complete waste of time.

Zinegata wrote:

ubernoob wrote:I am too stupid to understand. Again

Hey, look, ubernoob is trying to gain credit for what Archmage already said.

Again.

Proving yet again that he is a complete waste of time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Mister_Sinister wrote:I am too stupid to realize this argument is already over

I must admit, this is becoming a pretty fun tactic for me to use.

So, really, if you guys still want to continue this increasingly pointless bashing, I will refer you to the mile-high statue I created in my own image. At the base of the statue is the Zinegata motto.

"Bring. It. The. Fuck. On!"

In Latin.



* And yes, if you've read the Tom Francis Galactic Civilizations AAR, I totally stole it from there.

Yes Zinegata, lying appears to be a very good tactic. In most situations, it would even really be a good tactic. But since you are posting your lies directly adjacent to the actual posts by the people you are lying about, it ceases to be an effective tactic.

Zinegata: So bad, he fails at lying.

Kaelik wrote:I will repeat my own inane shit as if anybody cares!

Final score: 1 out of 10.

Sorry Kaelik, but the judges thought that you have no talent and kept repeating your lines inanely.

Next!

Kaelik, might I suggest just ignoring Zine, and then not clicking the "Let me read this one message" thing?

Zinegata wrote:
I'm a big stupid moron, and my butt smells, and I love to smell my own butt.

Hey, why aren't you guys recognising my comedic and rhetorical genius yet?

Fuck, Zine. I take you off of ignore for a week and this is what happens.

Long stuff

Zinegata wrote:

Kaelik wrote:I am too stupid to understand. I am too proud to read.

Hey, look, one of the self-serving idiots who thinks his own stuff is so good and who flies into a rage whenever the real world intrudes into his fantasy.

Again, I don't care what you think is quality, because it's just subjective BS from an asshole.

It was stupid of you to clump me in with the "self-serving idots who thinks his own stuff is good" it really makes you look like an asshole.
Frankly, I didn't have a bubble to burst. . .

Moreover however you started talking shit about/to me apparently simple because I had a dissenting opinion apparently. But frankly you agreed with me initially not archmage since you want to call uber on his post not meaning anything and all...
My orignal post contained

2. The very fact that the Den afaik isn't selling anything is one of the main reasons they're NOT making "sells". No advertising really, in fact the opposite thereof, mostly its like: This is better than what you're playing.
People respond: but we LIKE what we're playing! PLUS its supported!.

You might have missed that in your nerd rage against Sinister and Kaelik, but I do recognize in this that I'm clearly on the right side. As you were obviously "venting" and not discussing when I entered the conversation.

I mean you're talking shit to me like:

"I don't really care how you define quality. Because "quality" is subjective and very often non-quantifiable. On the other hand, sales are indicative of usage."

Obvious red herring Fallacy is Obvious.
I didn't attempt to define quality...
"Sales are indicative of usage" however has jack shit to do with quality, you fucking clown..
There are multiple example of this everywhere cars, condoms, cigars, things that don't start w/ "C"
So yeah... honestly,

-> Pathfinder players are all idiots who play a low-quality product.

Not all of them are idiots, I suspect there are some people who play because they think "its the only game in town" since people play it already why go against the grain... etc. . .
but there are People all over the world are fucking idiots who pay for low quality product; and I'm talking very objective LOW QUALITY which by the way:

To be perfectly honest I was being rhetorical to Midnight with my first question, because my whole point for bringing up the sales figures was "Quality is subjective" anyway

That argument is bullshit but since the way you've communicated it your antecedent and consquent don't really match, so: Fail.

Short stuff:
Its not that I'm somekind of elitist, there are simply more stupid followers than free thinkers, which sucks but thats just simple fact, explainable over many issues, and in many ways. People are too susceptible to not wanting to analyze and/or think about thinks logically
So its really kind of futile bringing up things like sales quantity at all, because its so utterly disingenuous, especilly when you bring it up as a "Nyah Nyah, well they still sell more" which is how that pile came out, basically.
Don't be mad.

K wrote:The current meme running over at Paizo is that people want the stats to reflect the character they want to play.

Now, that's not a crazy position. What is crazy is the fact that the game cannot produce that result effectively, and no amount of actual logic or evidence will convince them of that.

I mean, that guide starts with them wanting to making a dashing fighter hero with social skills (a common enough archetype), but we can see that they totally fail at that proposition. I mean, you could fill that archetype with a Rogue, or even a gish character or a Cleric, and be objectively better in all ways, but their minds rebel on all levels that they can't have this archetype AND write "Fighter" on the character sheet.

I don't even want to engage in conversation with these people. I mean, if you can't figure out that the fluff does not match the crunch AND you can't figure out that you can just decide your own fluff, we can't even have a conversation. At that point you need a new game.

Indeed. But then, these are the people who seriously think they can show up at the table with a level 15 Monk and pull their weight against shit like Greater Stone Golems, and that Stunning Fist is highly effective (instead of fizzles on a 2 or better, if they were not outright immune at least 2 levels ago) against level 15 Wizards.

These are also the same people that call 80 damage a round incredibly overpowered at level 10. Even though you're fighting shit like Hamatulas, and a pair of Frost Giants, and a half dozen Trolls and it's not even a big deal. All of which will laugh at you if you can only flail for piddly shit.

Zinegata wrote:

Mister_Sinister wrote:I might add, has produced much higher-quality work than the Paizils could ever hope to.

*pops Sinister's balloon*

Pathfinder tied D&D 4th Edition in sales last quarter. And again, it's pretty clear that those guys are selling far better than the Den's stuff ever has - despite the fact that the Den gives away its stuff for free.

So before you start screaming at someone who made a subjective judgment ("I had fun playing Saga at high levels") let's not make our own sweeping subjective generalizations shall we?

Besides, Orion's right. Magnuskin wasn't railing against the Den so much as pre-empting Oberoni.

Hey you. Fucking fucker.

4th edition doesn't have good sales. Hundreds of thousands, bitch. Tying them just means Pathfailure is also an Epic Failure. Not that either of them are worth a damn.

Kaelik wrote:

Zinegata wrote:So, based on you and Sinister's worldview, the only way to explain this is:

-> [Nazis] are all idiots who [have a shitty society].

When in fact the reality is probably this:

-> [Nazis] found a certain quality in [Killing all the Jews] that they liked, which is why they are [Killing all the Jews] now.

Because really, the first explanation is just self-serving crap. Everyone likes to think "their" system is the hottest.

So rather than whining about how Nazis suck, maybe you people should start thinking in terms of "Why does Nazism sell?"

Fixed for you.

Now can we stop pretending that a large number of people liking something makes it good?

In before Zine whines, flails, and falsely attributes words to me.

Bad liar. Stop lying. And stop being so full of strawmen that I can only presume that you shit actual straw.