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magnuskn
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Post by magnuskn »

malak wrote:
magnuskn wrote:but the point I tried to make remains, that Saga actually gets more playable and fun as the levels go higher. I've been having tons of fun with my character in the last levels, although that could also be because the GM is very good and varies encounters up enough to challenge everybody.
Please leave 'but I have tons of FUN' as answer to a post detailing mechanical problems on the paizo board.
I'm sorry, I forgot that the only acceptable enjoyment someone on the Den can enjoy out of a game is when he makes the GM sob in desperation, due to breaking the game as premeditately as possible.
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Post by Jilocasin »

Don't be obtuse.
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Post by koz »

magnuskn wrote:Pointless generalisations about TGD as a community in a passive-aggressive and overblown manner.
Jilocasin wrote:Don't be obtuse.
Or misunderstand the statement, for that matter. If you think we're all such people, then why do you hang around here anyway? I for one, am getting tired of your endless passive-aggressive tone towards our community, which, I might add, has produced much higher-quality work than the Paizils could ever hope to.

If you're going to use 'I had tonnes of fun' as justification for MECHANICAL problems not being problems, then you can kindly go suck a barrel of cocks. Nobody cares if they're fun or not - broken mechanics are broken mechanics, and should be evaluated as such.

As for your rather sweeping judgment of our community - I'll leave that to your discretion. You're clearly an idiot and a troll, so I won't try to discourage you from sweeping generalisations, since that's the only way you can probably make sense of life anyway.

tl;dr: If you don't like it here, fuck off. You won't be missed.
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Roy
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Post by Roy »

Juton wrote:At the last con I went to, there where about 8 3.5 games and 6 PF games, with 1 4e game bringing up the rear. So that's my anecdata.

Out of a strange masochistic urge I visit the PF forums, and they've finished their initial Magus play test. For those of you who don't like inflicting pain on themselves the PF Magus is supposed to be a Gish-in-a-can, but it's basically a Bard with the singing bits removed and evocation n' Fightan' bits grafted on. In short, it sucks.

The popular consensus is that Buhlman simply sucks at game design. I think he's a bit craftier than that, he takes an old flawed concept and makes it look shiny and new without actually fixing it. A lot of Paizos think that 3.5 is balanced, so actually making the Monk work would make it OP in their eyes. The Magus is a bit different because he's not cribbing of the Duskblade. My guess is it will focus on an inferior form of melee combat (1H) but will allow casting of certain spells in the same action (mainly evocations). I think it will keep the Bard's chassis but add on a bunch of unimpressive class features and be able to keep up DPS wise with low-optimization builds. Ultimately it will fail as a Gish because it will lack the utility spells of the Wizard and the endurance of the Fighter. For those playing along at home, that's exactly how it was during it's first play test, he'll just make it look brighter and shinier so that the guppies will swallow it.
The Paizil devs have gone on record to say that shiny but useless > effective but boring. And since they define the interest, or lack thereof of a class based solely on the quantity of class features it has regardless of the value of those features individually or collectively and that consequently making Monk like classes is an actual design goal it should not surprise or offend you that their motto is "It's fun to fail."
Jilocasin wrote:Don't be obtuse.
Telling a Paizil to stop being obtuse is like telling the sun to stop shining. It won't happen, but if it ever did the entire solar system would soon die.

Telling them to stop being passive aggressive? Same deal. Honestly telling them to fuck off, or suck a barrel of cocks, or using a certain greeting based phrase though? That's not acceptable.
Last edited by Roy on Tue Nov 09, 2010 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by erik »

Kaelik wrote:I think the point Hogarth, is that RPGA DMs were traditionally people who played 3.5, but never DMed outside of RPGA ever, because they couldn't DM without the structure.
Then your point is a retarded generalization. I DM'd RPGA games sometimes if they needed DMs. I have DM'd plenty outside of RPGA and outside of DnD. I know plenty of other RPGA DMs many of whom had their own campaigns in addition to the RPGA stuff they did.

I went through a dry spell when my usual gaming friends weren't up for gaming and RPGA offered some easy access to find many other gamers and games that I could walk up to and play in.

FrankTrollman wrote:The RPGA stuff is even more out-there than it used to be. You have to pay money per event to play in it, and your characters are stored in central databases and stuff.
Ehhh, I dunno if that's the case. I know that for 3.5 RPGA stuff the pay to play was only at conventions, and at conventions it costs to play everything that's an event so that's not really a significant observation. Home games never cost anything to play.
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Post by magnuskn »

Jilocasin wrote:Don't be obtuse.
Yeah, I was somewhat. The point is, I pointed out things which work better when Saga is played at higher levels and just added "I was having fun" as a personal note. And of course that gets attacked and the other points I made ignored, which just felt like a gratuitous attack.
Mister_Sinister wrote:
magnuskn wrote:Pointless generalisations about TGD as a community in a passive-aggressive and overblown manner.
Jilocasin wrote:Don't be obtuse.
Or misunderstand the statement, for that matter. If you think we're all such people, then why do you hang around here anyway? I for one, am getting tired of your endless passive-aggressive tone towards our community, which, I might add, has produced much higher-quality work than the Paizils could ever hope to.

If you're going to use 'I had tonnes of fun' as justification for MECHANICAL problems not being problems, then you can kindly go suck a barrel of cocks. Nobody cares if they're fun or not - broken mechanics are broken mechanics, and should be evaluated as such.

As for your rather sweeping judgment of our community - I'll leave that to your discretion. You're clearly an idiot and a troll, so I won't try to discourage you from sweeping generalisations, since that's the only way you can probably make sense of life anyway.

tl;dr: If you don't like it here, fuck off. You won't be missed.
Thanks, but you can suck your own barrel of cocks. I hang around here because sometimes actual interesting news happens to be discussed here and other information turns up which I hadn't known before.

As pointed out above, I actually was discussing mechanical points of the Saga system and just added that I am having fun playing at higher levels, when all the mechanical stuff was ignored to attack my daring to say that I have fun playing the game. That doesn't tend to happen on most other sites I frequent.

As for the rest of the stuff you wrote, I don't see the pressing need to get into a pissing match whose e-peen is larger and if your perceived passive-aggressive behaviour is as bad as direct aggressive behaviour.
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Kaelik
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Post by Kaelik »

erik wrote:Then your point is a retarded generalization.
Protip: not my point.
DSMatticus wrote:Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
The U.S. isn't a democracy and if you think it is, you are a rube.

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hogarth
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Post by hogarth »

DMReckless wrote: I think you'll find pay-to-play is pretty much a convention-only thing, not a PFS thing.
Yeah, I've played in PFS games, but I've never paid for it.
DMReckless wrote:All that said, as someone who runs PF for a ftf group and a number of online games on OpenRPG, I have run PFS games at conventions because (a) they are formatted for a 4 hour slot (b) the low amount of prep they take (c) I was incentivised at the release of the PF RPG Gen Con (d) easier mustering in a convention setting, among other reasons. Primarily, when I go to conventions, I GM for incentives (free admission, TShirts, swag, whatever) and look for games I don't usually get to play in my non-gm time.
The one thing I like about PFS games is that I don't have to worry about my character becoming obsolete when the campaign falls apart due to GM flakiness. Also, the modules are short (if not terribly interesting).
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Datawolf
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Post by Datawolf »

I thought you guys might find this amusing:

Paizil guide to optimization
Last edited by Datawolf on Sat Nov 13, 2010 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ubernoob
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Post by ubernoob »

Datawolf wrote:I thought you guys might find this amusing:

Paizil guide to optimization
So, they're seriously just statting up single class PHB only characters of levels less than five with primary stats not above 14? I mean, looking at that fighter...
He's barking up both 'be good in melee' and 'be good with a bow' trees and failing at both.

Cleave? When you're dealing 1d10+7 damage per hit? Wow.
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Post by Juton »

Datawolf wrote:I thought you guys might find this amusing:

Paizil guide to optimization
I wasn't around when the original WotC D&D forums opened, but I imagine CharOp began with something like this. With a more permissive set of moderators the Paizos could call the dumber members on their bullshit and eventually grow into a quasi-respectable community. However, due to moderator censorship I doubt we'll see much useful come of them.
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Post by TOZ »

ubernoob wrote:
Cleave? When you're dealing 1d10+7 damage per hit? Wow.
Remember that PF changed Cleave so it's a standard action attack instead of triggering on dropping an enemy.
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Post by MfA »

And there is not a lot useful things melee characters can do on standard actions in PF ... it's certainly a better feat chain than vital strike.
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Post by ubernoob »

TOZ wrote:
ubernoob wrote:
Cleave? When you're dealing 1d10+7 damage per hit? Wow.
Remember that PF changed Cleave so it's a standard action attack instead of triggering on dropping an enemy.
Ok, that's less bad then.

Edit: Apparently they made the ranged power attack a 2 to 1 ratio. Example level 5 fighter using throwing weapons:

3 fighter feats, 3 character feats, 1 human bonus feat:

TWF, PBS, Precise Shot, Rapidshot, Deadly Aim, Far Shot, Quick Draw. You run around with handaxes getting within thirty feet and then go off with this full attack routine:
5 bab 4 dex 1 weapon training 1 PBS 1 masterwork -2 rapidshot -2 TWF -2 deadly aim = +6/6/6

Damage: 1d6 + 2 str +1 weapon training +1 PBS +4 deadly aim = 1d6+8 per hit


Ok, that actually pretty much sucks in every way. Nevermind that.
Last edited by ubernoob on Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by TOZ »

There aren't many really great feats for early levels any more either, thanks to the PA nerf and such. Vital Strike, with its mediocre worth, doesn't come in until 6th level. What else are you going to pick up besides Dodge? Maneuver Feats that now cost two feats for the same benefits? Combat Expertise for giggles?

This thread made me laugh. And reminded me that Iron Will is another relevant feat. Almost a required feat if you're playing a fighter.
Last edited by TOZ on Sat Nov 13, 2010 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Orion »

I'm disappointed that Magnus resorted to Den-bashing, but he really obviously didn't do what he is accused of.

He posted a number of sound mechanical points about the game, building up to the statement that "it is more fun and more interesting" at higher levels, which is a valid mechanics opinion.

Then he proactively confessed his BIAS that enjoying the game he is in might be clouding his judgment. That's not Oberoni, that's a pre-emptive strike against Oberoni.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v »

I've learned a lot about the game over time... One the things I've picked up on is a LARGE portion of the people who post/play don't want to see the innerworkings of the game. Don't want to do any analysis of the situations involved... frankly many of them want to play the game in a way that suggests "Fighter: Protect wizard and cleric. Rogue flank with fighter. etc etc...
I've noticed that its not so much even a logical fail as a refusal to have their "beliefs" upset. They believe the fantasy world should work that way and in many senses the MAKE it do so. . .
Anyone who points out any variance in that belief set gets attacked, like almost anytime humans get thier "beliefs" attacked.
I love the tome series... I love the flavor especially and I really enjoy the tone of the den in a lot of ways its a place for the "big boys".
I've showed the Tome to lots of people and you know though they would acknowledge eventually that there was imbalance in 3.5, they'd show absolute outrage at the tone of the writers, actually noticing and correcting these things.

Tl;dr: People enjoy their preconcieved ignorance. You guys on this board do a lot to challenge the perceptions they cling to. This will always generate hate, especially when you're actually telling them the truth. You're telling the old church that the Earth is not the center but we go round the Sun. Ymmv
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Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
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Post by Roy »

Datawolf wrote:I thought you guys might find this amusing:

Paizil guide to optimization
So the Paizil way to optimize is to try to optimize, claim you will optimize, and then epic fail at actually doing it?

...Oh wait.

To be fair, he starts off sounding almost reasonable. It's just that they couldn't optimize if their lives depended on it, and well it's Caster Edition, and they're playing with beatsticks.
Last edited by Roy on Sun Nov 14, 2010 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
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Post by Datawolf »

Roy wrote:To be fair, he starts off sounding almost reasonable. It's just that they couldn't optimize if their lives depended on it, and well it's Caster Edition, and they're playing with beatsticks.
Interesting way of putting it. I did consider that thread to be mental masturbation, but "playing with beatsticks" was a phrase that didn't actually pop into mind.
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Post by magnuskn »

Orion wrote:I'm disappointed that Magnus resorted to Den-bashing, but he really obviously didn't do what he is accused of.
Yeah, sorry about the generalized bashing. I should have refrained it to the particular poster. I got in a pissy mood, what can I say?

And thanks for the defense, Orion. It's appreciated. :)
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Post by Roy »

Datawolf wrote:
Roy wrote:To be fair, he starts off sounding almost reasonable. It's just that they couldn't optimize if their lives depended on it, and well it's Caster Edition, and they're playing with beatsticks.
Interesting way of putting it. I did consider that thread to be mental masturbation, but "playing with beatsticks" was a phrase that didn't actually pop into mind.
:rofl:

I actually meant beatsticks as in 'guy who beats it with a stick', aka non casters. But that's a lot funnier.

There's also much whining about the difference between negative 2 base to a skill and 0 base to a skill, ignoring that they're fucking skills, and therefore you will automatically fail at anything you care about without training regardless of if the stat is 7 or 10 and will automatically succeed at anything you care about with sufficient training regardless of if the stat is 7 or 10. The only reason they're whining about it is because several people pointed out that part of the reason why it's Caster Edition is the easy 7s approach. So now they all hate 7s in a stat and treat it more like negative 7.
Draco_Argentum wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:Clearly, your cock is part of the big barrel the server's busy sucking on.
Can someone tell it to stop using its teeth please?
Juton wrote:Damn, I thought [Pathfailure] accidentally created a feat worth taking, my mistake.
Koumei wrote:Shad, please just punch yourself in the face until you are too dizzy to type. I would greatly appreciate that.
Kaelik wrote:No, bad liar. Stop lying.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type I - doing exactly the opposite of what they said they would do.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type II - change for the sake of change.
Standard Paizil Fare/Fail (SPF) Type III - the illusion of change.
K
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Post by K »

Roy wrote:
Datawolf wrote:I thought you guys might find this amusing:

Paizil guide to optimization
So the Paizil way to optimize is to try to optimize, claim you will optimize, and then epic fail at actually doing it?

...Oh wait.

To be fair, he starts off sounding almost reasonable. It's just that they couldn't optimize if their lives depended on it, and well it's Caster Edition, and they're playing with beatsticks.
The current meme running over at Paizo is that people want the stats to reflect the character they want to play.

Now, that's not a crazy position. What is crazy is the fact that the game cannot produce that result effectively, and no amount of actual logic or evidence will convince them of that.

I mean, that guide starts with them wanting to making a dashing fighter hero with social skills (a common enough archetype), but we can see that they totally fail at that proposition. I mean, you could fill that archetype with a Rogue, or even a gish character or a Cleric, and be objectively better in all ways, but their minds rebel on all levels that they can't have this archetype AND write "Fighter" on the character sheet.

I don't even want to engage in conversation with these people. I mean, if you can't figure out that the fluff does not match the crunch AND you can't figure out that you can just decide your own fluff, we can't even have a conversation. At that point you need a new game.
Last edited by K on Mon Nov 15, 2010 2:34 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v »

I had a guy in a party that was not able to play something else and write paladin on his paper. The thing was he demanded to be a paladin. I didn't understand the bias. I mean like crusader or knight or whatever... he always wanted to be the "Paladin" and I couldn't get him to differenciate between the class and the character he wanted to actually play.
This is one of the things that led me to say... you can't shake beliefs. They WANT to believe. Its terrrible.
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
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Post by Zinegata »

Mister_Sinister wrote:I might add, has produced much higher-quality work than the Paizils could ever hope to.
*pops Sinister's balloon*

Pathfinder tied D&D 4th Edition in sales last quarter. And again, it's pretty clear that those guys are selling far better than the Den's stuff ever has - despite the fact that the Den gives away its stuff for free.

So before you start screaming at someone who made a subjective judgment ("I had fun playing Saga at high levels") let's not make our own sweeping subjective generalizations shall we?

Besides, Orion's right. Magnuskin wasn't railing against the Den so much as pre-empting Oberoni.
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Midnight_v
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Post by Midnight_v »

Zinegata wrote:
Mister_Sinister wrote:I might add, has produced much higher-quality work than the Paizils could ever hope to.
*pops Sinister's balloon*

Pathfinder tied D&D 4th Edition in sales last quarter. And again, it's pretty clear that those guys are selling far better than the Den's stuff ever has - despite the fact that the Den gives away its stuff for free.

So before you start screaming at someone who made a subjective judgment ("I had fun playing Saga at high levels") let's not make our own sweeping subjective generalizations shall we?

Besides, Orion's right. Magnuskin wasn't railing against the Den so much as pre-empting Oberoni.

I may not be getting you correctly but... lets take for granted that I am.
1. Sales are not, indicative of quality ... like AT ALL. Trojan condoms are terrible for instance, but they're easily the most widely recognized and often most purchased.
2. The very fact that the Den afaik isn't selling anything is one of the main reasons they're NOT making "sells". No advertising really, in fact the opposite thereof, mostly its like: This is better than what you're playing.
People respond: but we LIKE what we're playing! PLUS its supported!.
3. Mass stupidty reigns than alone burst Mr.Sinister's bubble I'm sure.
:sad:
Don't hate the world you see, create the world you want....
Dear Midnight, you have actually made me sad. I took a day off of posting yesterday because of actual sadness you made me feel in my heart for you.
...If only you'd have stopped forever...
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