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Lord Mistborn
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

My understanding of it is something like this. Initially "The Galactic Republic" controlled the entire galaxy then a bunch of planets tried to secede and there was a civil war. During the civil war more and more power was shifted from the Senate to the Chancellor and as the civil war came to a close the Senate voted to suspend democracy and become "The Empire".

A bunch of people didn't like this so the started "The Rebellion" with the aim of restoring power to the Senate. After the empire died the Rebellion took control of most of the Galaxy except for parts of the outer rim which remained in control of the Empire which now calls itself "The First Order". The Rebellion set up a new Senate, started calling itself "The New Republic", and signed a treaty with the First Order but some members of the rebellion disapproved of the treaty so they formed "The Resistance" and continued to fight the First Order.

Then the First Order blew up like five planets and the New Republic just sort of evaporated for reasons that movies were apparently too small to contain. This left the Resistance as the only group contesting the First Orders control of the Galaxy.

So basically it all makes sense until midway through TFA whereupon all logic is thrown out the window in order to rehash the original trilogy.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 4:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nope. No treaty. Supposedly the Republic didn't believe the First Order even existed, despite the fact they're accumulating larger fleets and transforming an entire planet into Even More Bigger Deathstar. All of which obviously takes ungodly amounts of money, material, a huge construction corps and a massive brain drain.

Now, this is bizarre because fucking literally everyone in TFA knows who the first order is, where they're coming from and what they're after. This is apparently because Abrams is bad at storytelling.

So the Resistance happened because Leia and her old drinking buddies from the Rebellion believed the truth was out there and formed a private militia.
To find and potentially combat the FO, which was... somewhere.

The Republic apparently also didn't believe in sector fleets, protecting trade or fighting piracy (or Hutts), so only had one small fleet to patrol an entire fucking galaxy, which was blown up in TFA (off screen).

So basically now the FO is in complete control, because the Argentinian Exiles' Space Reich blew up DC and Norfolk, and everyone else said fuck it and cashed out.... because Johnson is even worse at storytelling than Abrams.


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Pseudo Stupidity
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rasmuswagner wrote:
So, I just watched Bright, the somewhat hyped modern fantasy cop movie. It's pretty good, mostly. Not great, but good enough.

However.... Will Smith's character is super unlikeable. Not just wrong, but downright unpleasant. And the attempts to lighten it with the actor's famous brand of "charm" is even less successful than in Suicide Squad. Even after his learning-to-accept-his-buddy arc, he is still being a condescending shit to him.


I watched Bright because a friend told me it was good but it was complete shit. The only likable character is the orc cop, the plot is a fucking mess, the jokes are shit ("fairy lives don't matter today!" Get it? The black guy is making a blm reference while beating a fairy to death.), and everything is grimdark. The movie looks and feels like it was written by a fourteen year old. They say fuck in every sentence but it doesn't come off as charming and silly and cultural like it does in Boondock Saints, it's like they think that's how you sound streets. Just...fucking everything is bad about it.

And of course the badass bad guys, who wipe a SWAT team and a gang out with pistols and fucking blades, are suddenly rendered incompetent against our protagonists. They're shown with superhuman agility, strength, and aim, and they just can't do shit.

This movie would probably have been acceptable if I was high off my ass, but I watched it sober on the couch with my wife and a friend. It was so fucking bad, the only fun I had with it was riffing on how shitty it was. This is worse than the Netflix Death Note.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I imagined that the inferni had piles of hit points with the aesthetic that every near miss was technically a hit that took off their HP ("only hit point that matters is the last one"). But yeah, the protagonists' plot-armor was pretty damn thick.

It feels weird to see such a disconnect between the lambasting critics and audience approval (Rotten Tomatoes' 31% for critics and 91% for audiences)
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K
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bright is a cop movie. If you don't think Training Day or Assault on Precinct 13 are amazing movies, you are going to bounce off Bright pretty hard.

It is not a Will Smith adventure movie. It's not a fantasy movie. It's not a crime movie. It's a straight cop movie with surprisingly discrete comedy and fantasy elements.

I expect that it will win some awards for art direction.


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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Last Jedi is good because it's about how your heros were shit, and trying to be like them is stupid and you will fail, and the real path forward is doing the little things that together allow everyone to overcome the bad guys is the path forward. Also because it says capitalism is bad.

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Last Jedi is bad because there are lots of places that aren't well written, and the metaplot of the first order/resistance conflict doesn't make sense.

What I would have liked to see is suddenly a hodge podge array of ships arrive from the outer rims and not conquered settlements, to show that 1) obviously the death of the republic was... somewhat overstated, and it was mostly just that without a command structure everyone was just sitting around being selfish, but the brave last stand thing convinced them all to go even though alone they wouldn't be enough, because they hoped that everyone else would jump in, and then the combined forces could beat the First Order fleet, and then you would move on from there with a reduced republic fighting a still powerful but not overwhelming first order, but with the message reinforced that you all have to work together and that waiting for a hero, and trying to be a hero are both stupid.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So I just saw Last Jedi.

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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Given that TFA has established the First Order as ludicrously dangerous and the New Republic as so short-lived as to be basically a non-entity in the actual stories depicted, the right move for TLJ is definitely to try and make that work rather than backpedal out of it. If you want to erase the stupidity behind the First Order as established in TFA, you need to do it with a movie that pretends TFA never even happened.

Bah, you don't. TLJ could have easily started with the Resisty trying to capitalize on their victory and getting their teeth kicked in. Instead of extraneous plotlines and soap boxes, they could have been over confident, had a nice set-piece space battle, lost and then had to flee to Salt Planet not!Hoth. Everything of worth in the film is preserved, the failure and working together story elements could be made meaningful, and the Luke/Kylo arcs can stay exactly the same, because none of that shit impacts them anyway.
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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 2:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
TLJ could have easily started with the Resisty trying to capitalize on their victory and getting their teeth kicked in. Instead of extraneous plotlines and soap boxes, they could have been over confident, had a nice set-piece space battle, lost and then had to flee to Salt Planet not!Hoth. Everything of worth in the film is preserved, the failure and working together story elements could be made meaningful, and the Luke/Kylo arcs can stay exactly the same, because none of that shit impacts them anyway.


Why would you think that would help? The New Republic was still killed in the same movie it debuted and the First Order still has an enormous fleet out of nowhere. Changing the exact size of the Resistance fleet at the start of the movie fixes exactly nothing, and tying the current state of the fight directly to the immediate aftermath of the battle in the last movie only draws attention to how stupid the last movie was. Focusing entirely on the new status quo at least has the advantage of letting you ignore how stupid the chain of events leading to it was.
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Voss
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
Voss wrote:
TLJ could have easily started with the Resisty trying to capitalize on their victory and getting their teeth kicked in. Instead of extraneous plotlines and soap boxes, they could have been over confident, had a nice set-piece space battle, lost and then had to flee to Salt Planet not!Hoth. Everything of worth in the film is preserved, the failure and working together story elements could be made meaningful, and the Luke/Kylo arcs can stay exactly the same, because none of that shit impacts them anyway.


Why would you think that would help? The New Republic was still killed in the same movie it debuted and the First Order still has an enormous fleet out of nowhere. Changing the exact size of the Resistance fleet at the start of the movie fixes exactly nothing, and tying the current state of the fight directly to the immediate aftermath of the battle in the last movie only draws attention to how stupid the last movie was. Focusing entirely on the new status quo at least has the advantage of letting you ignore how stupid the chain of events leading to it was.

I have no idea how your brain works, but pretending a problem isn't there doesn't change what happened in the past. There is no ignoring the chain of events. That isn't an advantage, just a short attention span.

It also doesn't change the size of the Resistance fleet at all. They're randomly a group separate from the Republic, with no pull on their resources or military.

Nor does the FO fleet have to be 'enormous'- that's stupid in its own right, especially since they were gambling on another superweapon. They had resources, but they weren't established as 'limitless' and 'enormous' until the interviews for this film. They were established, but small enough that the Republic could pretend they didn't exist.

Anyway, you don't have the New Republic 'killed' at all. Its entirely stupid and declared in this film. There certainly isn't any evidence of ships blowing up in the along side the worlds targeted by the super cannon in TFA, so no reason to randomly believe there aren't multiple Republic fleets out there in their territory, which is something like a third to half of a fucking galaxy. Basic logistics, time and distance dictate they MUST have multiple fleets out there to patrol and police their domain.

Done properly, the film should just focus on what the consequences are for this Resisty group. Right now the exact state of the Republic doesn't matter very much at all. So, post explosion, the battle goes badly, they're fleeing toward their base, and from there they will link up to actual Republic fleets out there in the galaxy. But for now you'd have short term consequences for these specific people- that's enough stakes to care about.

Well, it would be if the characters were interesting or had any depth.

But instead, the world was presented with an idiot writer/director and an incompetent pile of shit.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chamomile wrote:
On that specific subject, though: It does not, in fact, paint the alt-right as villains. The First Order have no more in common with the alt-right specifically than the Empire did in movies released decades before they became a thing, and there is no reason to believe that an organization aping the Empire's look is meant to be an alt-Right reference rather than just a reference back to the original source material.


It is an explicit writers' intent that the First Order are a white human male supremacy movement.


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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Then that writer should be sacked for putting his political agenda into a disney movie like that.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I must apologize. After double checking, it was a Rogue One writers Chris Weitz and Garry Whitta who said that, not any of the TLJ/TFA writers.

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Omegonthesane
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The First Order are a closer analog for the OG Nazis than the Empire ever was, being an upstart regime of evil that imitates supposed past glories that few in the regime can actually remember instead of the collapse of a subset of the assumptions of a centuries old (well, millennia old apparently) regime more akin to the fall of the Roman Republic.

It's not an accident that Hux is too young to have been out of nappies before Palpatine died.

And Disney movies have always pushed political agendas - all media with a clear hero and a clear villain is political propaganda.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Then that writer should be sacked for putting his political agenda into a disney movie like that.


You are a fucking idiot. All art is political, and the fact that THE ENTIRE FUCKING MOVIE is telling you how to fight back against the nazis when they conquer you is political even if the nazis were not nazis and were instead huns. But also, they are nazis.

Also they tell you capitalism is evil in the movie.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Then that writer should be sacked for putting his political agenda into a disney movie like that.


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Pseudo Stupidity
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

K wrote:
Bright is a cop movie. If you don't think Training Day or Assault on Precinct 13 are amazing movies, you are going to bounce off Bright pretty hard.

It is not a Will Smith adventure movie. It's not a fantasy movie. It's not a crime movie. It's a straight cop movie with surprisingly discrete comedy and fantasy elements.

I expect that it will win some awards for art direction.


There are good cop movies (it's not a genre I seek out, but I like buddy cop movies when done well), Bright is a bad cop movie with fantasy elements and even more cussing than normal. If Bright got rid of all the fantasy elements (the only one that would affect the plot is the wand, which you can make into sufficiently advanced technology with no loss at all) it'd of still come off as unfunny, charmless, and uncomfortably racist. The action and comedy wasn't good enough to carry the movie.

Bright was a bad cop movie, which makes it a bad movie. The fantasy elements serve to make it worse. The attempts at comedy are just...hoo boy. Remember the hospital scene towards the end? Jesus Christ, that "joke" would not die.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Last Jedi is good because it's about how your heros were shit, and trying to be like them is stupid and you will fail, and the real path forward is doing the little things that together allow everyone to overcome the bad guys is the path forward. Also because it says capitalism is bad.


I genuinely like hero deconstruction stories, and I'm a filthy communist who think capitalism is bad. And this still seems like an incredibly stupid idea for what to do with Star Wars.

The message of Star Wars is "That Lightsaber Fight looked Awesome!" And if you try to have a deeper message than that in frickin Star Wars, then you're asking people to have discussions about the inner workings of your Star Wars galacto-politico-socicio-economic totality. And that doesn't work because Star Wars has never held up to scrutiny and it's not spontaneously going to start any time soon. There are space princesses and slaves and functioning interstellar vessels lying around in garbage piles and I don't even know what the value of currency is or what it's backed in.

The time to write a deeper message is after you've tied up your loose ends as regards connections to the movies people actually like. Don't try to do a deep dive on the effects of escalating trade disagreements in a republic with a weak federal government until you've made sure that your spiel about the force doesn't contradict anything Puppet Yoda said in fucking Empire. I don't give two shits about your message about federalism and corporatism unless and until you fix your fucking Star Wars tie-ins.

If you're having the New Republic die of apathy off camera so that you can have Rebellion and Empire expies fight it out again, I don't give two shits what your message is. You've failed at task zero, which is to make a movie that ties in to the Star Wars movies people actually like.

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Chamomile
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
I must apologize. After double checking, it was a Rogue One writers Chris Weitz and Garry Whitta who said that, not any of the TLJ/TFA writers.


Which makes even less sense than the First Order, because the First Order is at least a new movement aping the alleged past glories of an old one and formed in reaction to the spread of freedom across the galaxy. They're still missing some pretty key elements of the alt-right, most especially the fact that the alt-right are a political movement supported by a terrorist group where most of those who support the politicians with their votes are also sympathizers to the terrorist elements of the movement, but they're slightly closer than the original Galactic Empire is. Something harkening more directly to the alt-right would have been a spectacular villain for a sensible movie where the Imperial remnants are trying to undermine the New Republic as a terrorist organization, but alas, that is not the movie we got.

Also, while the First Order is all-human and lorewise both they and the Empire are human supremacists, neither the Last Jedi nor Rogue One draw attention to that. The RotJ line about how the Empire probably didn't have wookiees in mind when they made their shuttles is more reference to their space racism than anything I can remember from any of the Disney-era movies. It's not like that wouldn't be a perfectly sensible plot point to have, but they aren't actually going in that direction. The Last Jedi in particular serves as a salvo aimed at your bog standard pro-corporate Republicans better than it does the alt-right, who default to anti-corporatism whenever they are not commanded by their idols to be otherwise.

Voss wrote:
pretending a problem isn't there doesn't change what happened in the past.


You might recall, had you actually read my post, that I did indeed point out that the only way to actually change what happened in the past would be to actually change what happened in the past, i.e. to make movies that ignored the events of TFA altogether. Since Disney isn't going to do that, the next best thing is to get as much distance as possible between the dumb events and what's going on now. Trying to backpedal out of them halfway without actually going all the way to retconning TFA altogether just means drawing more attention to the dumb events that got us here.

Quote:
It also doesn't change the size of the Resistance fleet at all.


So when you said "get their teeth kicked in" you meant in such a way that they didn't actually take any losses?

Quote:
Nor does the FO fleet have to be 'enormous'


It has to be big enough that they can expect to declare war on the New Republic and win. That means that either their fleet is galaxy-spanning or the New Republic's is tiny enough to have been obliterated with the loss of a single system. Granted, going for both was unnecessary, but it had to be one or the other or else this movie is the story of how the First Order is immediately crushed like a bug by vastly superior New Republic forces, and also about how the Resistance's attack on Starkiller Base was ultimately pretty trivial because the Resistance base they were aiming at was a total non-threat compared to the size of the fleet barreling down on them. If Starkiller Base hasn't struck at the very least a debilitating wound on the New Republic with the destruction of one system, or else if the First Order don't have a fleet so big they can expect to defeat the New Republic when they inevitably retaliate, then the First Order are so incompetent as to have sealed their fate by using Starkiller Base at all and every action taken by the protagonists to resist them is completely pointless because the New Republic's got this and everything's fine. The entire theme of conserving resources because we're backed into a corner has to be completely rewritten to accommodate the fact that the death of the First Order is imminent because they just poked a bear they can't possibly win a straight-up fight against.

Alternatively: They have an enormous, galaxy-spanning fleet out of nowhere, the New Republic has completely crumbled from the destruction of one system, or both. You can peel away a maximum of one of those two stupid things before the entire plot of both TFA and TLJ ceases to make any sense.
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K
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Pseudo Stupidity wrote:
K wrote:
Bright is a cop movie. If you don't think Training Day or Assault on Precinct 13 are amazing movies, you are going to bounce off Bright pretty hard.

It is not a Will Smith adventure movie. It's not a fantasy movie. It's not a crime movie. It's a straight cop movie with surprisingly discrete comedy and fantasy elements.

I expect that it will win some awards for art direction.


There are good cop movies (it's not a genre I seek out, but I like buddy cop movies when done well), Bright is a bad cop movie with fantasy elements and even more cussing than normal. If Bright got rid of all the fantasy elements (the only one that would affect the plot is the wand, which you can make into sufficiently advanced technology with no loss at all) it'd of still come off as unfunny, charmless, and uncomfortably racist. The action and comedy wasn't good enough to carry the movie.

Bright was a bad cop movie, which makes it a bad movie. The fantasy elements serve to make it worse. The attempts at comedy are just...hoo boy. Remember the hospital scene towards the end? Jesus Christ, that "joke" would not die.


Buddy cop movies are a different genre from cop movies. The buddy cop movie genre is shit like Lethal Weapon where it is an action comedy and racial differences are just excuses for jokes. The stakes are low, nothing is serious, and the protagonists realize at the end that they are the same. See movies like Bad Boys, Tango and Cash, Rush Hour, etc.

The cop movie genre is dramas and sometimes action dramas. They are racist as fuck because cops in real life are racist as fuck. The cops are assholes even when they are the protagonists, at best only being redeemed a little because they end up doing the right thing at the end. The stakes are high because the movies accept that the reality of real policing is that everyone is an asshole and the line between criminal and cop is almost non-existent. (That's not grimdark, its appropriately dark) The action is short, pointless, and brutal just like real life. See movies like Training Day, Assault on Precinct 13, the Dirty Harry films, Internal Affairs, etc.

Bright is not a comedy. The jokes are there to reveal that the characters are assholes, not to draw laughs from the audience.

Bright is not a buddy cop movie. The characters still hate each other at the end, and rightfully so because the human cop is a fucking racist and asshole and the orc has compromised loyalties and is an idiot. The big victory at the end is that they trust each other the appropriate amount for partners and they did their job.

My guess is that Bright was released by Netflix and not theaters because it is such a misdirect. Anyone going into this movie expecting a buddy cop urban fantasy is going to have their expectations immediately dashed, just as if they'd walked into Training Day thinking it was going to be like Bad Boys.

I'm not saying that you aren't allowed your feelings about the movie, but I am saying that you are criticizing a movie using the criteria for a different kind of movie. It's like saying that the Lethal Weapon movies didn't have believable romances or the science of Star Wars wasn't accurate.

In truth, people should watch Bright because its the only original movie released this year. Everything else released this year was an unambitious retread of genre conventions or an actual sequel retreading a previous movie. In a year where no one tried anything new, Bright tried to combine genre elements that I would have said could not be combined.
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

K wrote:
In truth, people should watch Bright because its the only original movie released this year. Everything else released this year was an unambitious retread of genre conventions or an actual sequel retreading a previous movie. In a year where no one tried anything new, Bright tried to combine genre elements that I would have said could not be combined.
Were Shape of Water, Baby Driver, & Get Out unoriginal?
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
K wrote:
In truth, people should watch Bright because its the only original movie released this year. Everything else released this year was an unambitious retread of genre conventions or an actual sequel retreading a previous movie. In a year where no one tried anything new, Bright tried to combine genre elements that I would have said could not be combined.
Were Shape of Water, Baby Driver, & Get Out unoriginal?


I haven't seen The Shape of Water.

Baby Driver and Get Out were both good films, but they were straight genre films with a single unambitious gimmick. They get points for originality, but not many. New films should be required to have at least have one new twist or gimmick.

There were a lot of films I enjoyed this year that weren't terribly original at all: Rogue One, Thor 3, Guardians of Galaxy 2, Bladerunner 2, Lady Bird, Logan, The Big Sick, John Wick 2, Valerian, Pirates of the Caribbean, King Arthur, Wonder Woman, Atomic Blonde, Kingsman, etc.

Lots were just bad. Ghost in the Shell and Kong were bad. There was a Resident Evil and an Underworld movie this year, and I saw them, and I can't tell you what was in them. Ingrid Goes West and the Disaster Artist are movies where I'd actually leave the room before watching again even if they get points for originality.

Its been a shit year for original movies.
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Longes
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Does Logan fall into post-western genre like True Grit or into superhero genre like Avengers?
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K
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Longes wrote:
Does Logan fall into post-western genre like True Grit or into superhero genre like Avengers?


Western. The aging gunfighter story doesn't change here because of the magic claws and lack of horses. He passes the torch to a younger gunfighter, but is also saying goodbye to an older, braver age. Even the heroic sacrifice at the end is classic aging gunfighter story stuff.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Voss wrote:
.
Anyway, you don't have the New Republic 'killed' at all. Its entirely stupid and declared in this film. There certainly isn't any evidence of ships blowing up in the along side the worlds targeted by the super cannon in TFA, so no reason to randomly believe there aren't multiple Republic fleets out there in their territory, which is something like a third to half of a fucking galaxy. Basic logistics, time and distance dictate they MUST have multiple fleets out there to patrol and police their domain.

The old Republic didn't. The old Republic had exactly zero fleets policing and patrolling their domain. And the old Republic is exactly what the New Republic was emulating. It's also highly likely that if the New Republic attempted to build a fleet, a large number of worlds would just bail. The New Republic's political legitimacy was tenuous to nonexistent and its complete lack of enforcement power is the thing that kept a lot of the more self-sufficient sectors from leaving, since it allowed them to retain all the benefits of remaining in a union with none of the obligations.
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