Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Thu May 28, 2020 6:49 am

It seems that they're really trying to focus on the whales for their income and discontinuing anything that an entry level player would buy except for boosters, and even then, if they didn't have two popular formats that literally relied on boosters, I feel like they'd probably be looking at phasing out at least normal boosters, too.

Obviously, that's armchair... marketing? I don't know that they'd do that even if they thought they could get away with it.

But as a casual player, who occasionally goes through a short in-store play phase, it feels like they literally don't want my money anymore. I haven't watched PleasantKenobi's latest video, yet, but to pull a quote I saw attributed to it, "stop telling people they're too poor to play your game."

It's genuinely to the point that, if my meatspace friends were able to get together more, or there was a third party app, like Cockatrice or Tabletop Simulator, that wasn't a complete pain in the ass to use, I literally would not actually give WotC anymore money. At the moment, they get about $20 from me when a new set is released so I can get the full mastery rewards on Arena. But I'm very, very tired of putting up with WotC, from the retracted representation and generally piss-poor writing in the War of the Spark books, to the continuous "this thing is (Color) because (X, Y, and Z). No, it doesn't fit better in (!Color), you don't understand the pie chart like we do!," to, fuck, even just the fact that not all the Godzilla cards are legendaries, so when I'm looking at Baby Godzilla on my field, I don't play the one in my hand because my brain says "It has a name, thus it's legendary, thus don't play a second one." And I'm tired of business decisions that say the MTG Finance cocks who literally ruin the game by treating it like the stock market are more important than the people who actually play the game for enjoyment. Like, there is literally no reason that the moxes couldn't be a part of a core set every couple of years. Except that WotC doesn't want to get the finance dicks angry. There's no reason any card should not be available, in some form, for $20 or less. Let the special styles and arts go for more, fine, but no card should demand more than $20 just to get some version of it. Fuck, for that matter, there's very little reason that WotC couldn't have a print on demand shop with prices set by rarity. Players already make decisions based on an arbitrary value assigned to the cards, it would just be changing who sets that value, the "market" or the company that literally makes the cards.

I'm just... so fucking tired. And other than the difficulty of getting a kitchen table game in, I'm starting to see less and less point to not just printing out my own proxies with whatever art I care to put to a card, and literally never giving WotC another cent.

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Thu May 28, 2020 1:00 pm

It seems like for the past couple of years for every one step forward (Unification of the pauper banlist) is taken steps back (Multiple master sets in a year that were trash (M25 and Iconic). I've watch Vince's video, the Professor's video, and Alpha Investments video on this subject. While Alpha is more showing the business/investment side of the game, it does provide another perspective on the matter. Then there are several stories on reddit about how people are leaving because they are being priced out of just plain standard.

I would what they would probably consider a dolphin maybe whale, but when Secret Lair: Ultimate Edition was revealed, you can even see it on the Professor's face when they talked about the price he know it was going to be higher than that and it was bullshit being said to him. No one in thier right mind knew that sending at most 10 boxes was going to be nowhere near 165 dollars. Blake was trying his damned to make it look like it was awesome but even the presentation of the box was lame as fuck.

The year of commander is looking to the year of the straw that broke the camel's back.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 2:33 am

So, I've seen Rise of Skywalker now.

Yeah, in the intro, it talks about Palpatine. 5 seconds into the film and...ok, I know it would be bad going in, but still was foolishly hopeful, you know?

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:59 am

I think I actually dislike Lightspeed Skimming more than the Holdo maneuver.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 9:59 am

Not seeing much between them, though they made a big fuss about the Holdo Maneuver and quickly forgot about Lightspeed Skimming.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:08 pm

The Holdo Maneuver was at least visually impressive (TLJ had really good visuals in general, and while this might be faint praise I think it's the second best Disney Star Wars after Rogue One). It makes no sense in setting but that applies to like everything in the sequel trilogy (as opposed to the prequel trilogy where things didn't make sense at all). I don't even remember what the lightspeed skimming looked like because TROS had way too much going on, which would be forgivable if the stuff going on was any good.

I think that TROS is the worst Star Wars movie since that awful CGI Clone Wars movie (the latter of which I consider even worse than the prequels. I don't think that TROS is even worse than the prequels though just because those movies are so poorly written and directed). Between it and The Dark Knight Rises, I am going to avoid any third movie in a trilogy with "Rise" in the title that I otherwise enjoyed because it is bound to be a bitter disappointment.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Wed Jul 01, 2020 7:25 pm

The Holdo Maneuver even makes some sense in the setting, almost every piece of expanded universe lore both new and old establishes that people have been inventing powerful new technology and then forgetting it a few decades later for the past few thousand years (Star Wars is actually in a worse dark age than the Warhammer guys, and they haven't noticed). And yeah, it looks cool and star warsy.

Speed Skimming looks like they forgot that Star Wars and Guardians of the Galaxy were supposed to have slightly different aesthetics, and they even established in Episode 7 that leaving hyperdrive to end up inside the atmosphere but not the ground of a planet was super hard, but the millenium falcon pilot and the mooks following him both do it several times in a row, without preparation, or failing in the jump any time. Even JJ Abrams doesn't respect JJ Abrams...

It wasn't really until the very end though, where Rey has such a great epiphany that she actually sees the stars, that I realized how few stars are in the Star Wars movie.

MGuy · Post by **MGuy** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:06 am

The chances that they end up at actual planets consistently makes no sense. The fact that the Tie Fighters are able to do it, track them, and do both at the same time makes no sense. Then the additional suggestion that Rey would've done a better job than ostensibly their best pilot ever just adds that special spice. I still dislike TLJ more than rise but tros definitely puts on a strong second place effort.

Thaluikhain · Post by **Thaluikhain** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:12 am

A thought. The prequel trilogy is based on the original trilogy and refers to it, and the sequel trilogy is based on the original trilogy and refers to it, but is there any direct connection between the prequel and sequel trilogy?

Does the sequel trilogy refer to things introduced in the prequel trilogy?

phlapjackage · Post by **phlapjackage** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:21 pm

Barely if any mentions of the prequel trilogy. I know there's been alot of unhappiness about how the prequels and originals were supposedly Anakin's story but there's not one mention of him* in the sequels.

reddit.com/r/saltierthancrait

*Vader's helmet etc but not Anakin

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:34 pm

I mean of course they were going to minimize references to movies that people totally hated when they came out. I actually think (although I might be wrong on this) each sequel movie only references the prequels once:
TFA: The "Chosen One" prophecy is mentioned early on.
TLJ: Luke mentions that the Jedi were assholes that had it coming blind to Darth Sidious' rise to power. Since this helps influence his opinion on why he thinks the Jedi need to go, it's the only reference out of these that is actually important to the movie in any way.
TROS: I think some prequel Jedi make voiceover cameos in that really dumb "I am inevitable the Sith/I am Iron Man the Jedi" thing.

I also get the feeling that people like those in that reddit are mostly "liking" the prequels to hate on the sequels more than because there's much good in them (the only sequel movie whose prequel reference is anything more than fanservice is the one that seems to be the most disliked). My prediction is that 10 years down the line people will be talking about how good the sequel trilogy was in comparison to some new Star Wars movie(s) Disney shits out.

The Adventurer's Almanac · Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:49 pm

And thus, the slow march of declining quality continues.

Red_Rob · Post by **Red_Rob** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 12:50 pm

Remember Sturgeon's Law. 90% of everything is shit, we just remember the good bits. When compared to only the highlights of decades past what's around now seems worse by comparison, but remember there was plenty of crap back then too.

I never get that excited by sequels nowadays, because the odds are good they will be bad. That isn't some jab at lazy sequels, it's just a recognition that most pieces of entertainment are bad, or at least forgettable and unlikely to make any permanent mark on the culture. The times everything comes together and you get a great film, tv series or whatever are the exception, and expecting lightning to keep striking because you reused some characters or writers or whatever gets less likely each time.

The Adventurer's Almanac · Fri Jul 03, 2020 5:33 pm

I'm specifically referring to the Star Wars franchise going straight into the shitter.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:03 pm

I think Star Wars has been on an uptick since the mid-late 2000s (and if you don't count EU stuff it started going down the shitter in the 90s when Lucas literally destroyed his original movies). I don't think Disney has made a Star Wars movie as bad as the 2008 CGI Clone Wars movie with Jabba's son and gay stereotype uncle.

Mask_De_H · Post by **Mask_De_H** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:04 pm

The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:I'm specifically referring to the Star Wars franchise going straight into the shitter.

A cynical person would say that the franchise had been in the shitter since Return of the Jedi, and is only beloved due to a combination of marketing and nostalgia, with a set of quality works you can count on one hand.

Foxwarrior · Post by **Foxwarrior** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 7:50 pm

In Return of the Jedi, they go back to Tatooine to find the pilot of the Millenium Falcon, and then later blow up the Death Star, really it's just a rehash of the first movie

. The series really started going downhill with the Star Wars Christmas Special.

Pretty sure the reason people care about Star Wars has a lot to do with the peripheral products, games like Battlefront, Jedi Academy, and KotOR, a wide variety of toys and books. There have been new meaningful Star Wars things coming out all the time for the entirety of my life, and the new movies have just been large blips in the Star Wars franchise. It's like how people only care about Lovecraft because his works are Open Source, except George Lucas figured out the trick to getting lots of people to make all sorts of content for his thing and still get a nice cut of the money.

The only real jolt of nostalgia I got from Episode 9 was when Palpatine got sort of close to quoting a line from Wizards, and that only had that effect because I'd heard that line many times in a song I've listened to.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Fri Jul 03, 2020 9:28 pm

The original Star Wars was amazing regarding the craft used to make it. The original Star Wars Film released in 1977 with a budget of $11 million defied expectations for what a movie could be.

Star Trek: The Motion Picture was in production when Star Wars was released. With 4x the budget and a known property, they still didn't come close to making anything as good.

Compared to any other fantasy or sci-fi property of the time, or even any film set in the modern world, Star Wars felt real - and audiences responded in that manner.

We understand the power being immersed in a well-developed world creates - see echoes of Tolkien still being felt in modern fantasy. Star Wars didn't actually have the well-developed and consistent world-building that LotRs did, but it FELT like it did - lines about Clone Wars and prejudice against droids seemed like they were echoes of larger themes from outside the picture. Even through Return of the Jedi they didn't contradict or diminish the scale of the world - with probably one exception that needs to be mentioned - the relationship of Luke and Leia. In any case, through the original trilogy, most audiences felt like they were involved with a fully-imagined and powerfully interesting fantasy world, and the barrier to entry was much lower than reading a couple of thousand pages of text.

Yes, Star Wars has been coasting on the genre defying contributions it made to popular fantasy since 1977, but it could only do so because it essentially created the modern movie.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Mon Jul 06, 2020 10:00 pm

Also, the soundtrack is killer. You can demonstrably get pretty far by nailling some aesthetic details and heavily featuring one guy who was just obviously meant to be a movie star.

Darth Rabbitt · Post by **Darth Rabbitt** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 12:06 am

Foxwarrior wrote:In Return of the Jedi, they go back to Tatooine to find the pilot of the Millenium Falcon, and then later blow up the Death Star, really it's just a rehash of the first movie . The series really started going downhill with the Star Wars Christmas Special.

The Star Wars Holiday Special was an attempt to salvage the series when Splinter of the Mind's Eye had ruined it forever.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 1:44 am

Foxwarrior wrote:Pretty sure the reason people care about Star Wars has a lot to do with the peripheral products, games like Battlefront, Jedi Academy, and KotOR, a wide variety of toys and books. There have been new meaningful Star Wars things coming out all the time for the entirety of my life, and the new movies have just been large blips in the Star Wars franchise. It's like how people only care about Lovecraft because his works are Open Source, except George Lucas figured out the trick to getting lots of people to make all sorts of content for his thing and still get a nice cut of the money.

Star Wars, as a franchise, is one that has far greater success outside of its original medium following the original production. Many of the non-film products have been genuinely good or even great over the years. Even in the current era of Disney management they've managed to put out some very solid television products: Mandalorian is excellent, Clone Wars season 7 is too, and Rebels is a pretty decent show considering the ratings constraints it was laboring under.

It's just been difficult to make good movies, but besides the various considerations that had afflicted Star Wars filmmaking, it just seems like its genuinely hard to put good space opera on film.

deaddmwalking · Post by **deaddmwalking** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 2:34 pm

Mechalich wrote: It's just been difficult to make good movies, but besides the various considerations that had afflicted Star Wars filmmaking, it just seems like its genuinely hard to put good space opera on film.

I don't think that's the major issue - if you consider the original movie (or trilogy) good space opera, then it's certainly POSSIBLE. In a sense, I think they try too hard with the movies. With the side-projects that are outside of the 'Skywalker lineage saga' they feel less constraint and they do generally good work.

Lots of series have trouble moving on from their existing leads - we as audiences have a lot invested in certain characters and we want more of them, even when it doesn't make sense. Thus, Sherlock Holmes must come back from the dead and the quality of every series must be destroyed by our insistence that we get more of what we loved originally.

Whipstitch · Post by **Whipstitch** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 8:26 pm

Lots of series have trouble moving on from their existing leads - we as audiences have a lot invested in certain characters and we want more of them, even when it doesn't make sense.

Even Doyle didn't bring back Moriarty. This isn't actually as an insurmountable problem as you're making it out to be. People are fickle, yes, but oftentimes it's as simple as realizing that people tend to be willing to tolerate retcons when they "fix" unhappy endings and loathe them when they make their favorite characters look like ineffectual dipshits. The new trilogy opted for the latter option. ROJ had a happy ending and the new ones pooped on that. Next time just, you know, bring in new villains that the old heroes aren't directly responsible for creating.

Mechalich · Post by **Mechalich** » Tue Jul 07, 2020 10:16 pm

deaddmwalking wrote: I don't think that's the major issue - if you consider the original movie (or trilogy) good space opera, then it's certainly POSSIBLE. In a sense, I think they try too hard with the movies. With the side-projects that are outside of the 'Skywalker lineage saga' they feel less constraint and they do generally good work.

Well, but how many other examples of good space opera are there as film franchises (or even standalone movies)? There's good space opera on TV, (though even that suffers from serious budget related issues) but film seems to be a different beast. Most recent attempts at space opera on film have been massive failures, whether it's Valerian or Ender's Game or John Carter or Jupiter Ascending. If you don't count Guardians of the Galaxy (and I don't because it's just a superhero comedy with space as the backdrop), then when was the last decent space opera feature that wasn't Star Wars or Star Trek? The Fifth Element? That was 1997. Space, it would seem is just as merciless on film as in real life.

erik · Post by **erik** » Wed Jul 08, 2020 1:23 am

I think one of the more successful ones of late that wasn't Star Wars universe might be the Riddick series. But yeah, most of the success has been on the small screen, which I'm strangely comfortable with. I'd rather watch a series with many more hours of content like The Expanse or Firefly or a Dune miniseries, than slog into a theatre (especially as none currently exist near me, with a limited exception of a drive-in movie that has very limited offerings).