Moments when a piece of entertainment completely lost you.

[Whipstitch]

We shouldn't be surprised that success is rare if your criteria is narrow enough that we have to throw out Thor: Ragnarok & Guardians and are specifically looking for films that can be iterated on top of that.

Part of the issue here is that the visual standard for sci-fi theater releases has been set so high that the default expectation is blockbuster hunting or comedy, and even your comedy might cost 80 million. Television benefits enormously from having a different set of expectations to manage.

[Zaranthan]

Firefly

They said the thing. Now we must go absolutely batshit insane over the thing.

Dune miniseries

There've been a few of those. The one I saw was really good. Dune lends itself well to the format, I suppose. You want just enough time to do some world building and let the characters become people before they start killing each other over piles of paprika and sand. Then roll the credits before the author turns into a horny old man and starts writing STI porn.

[K]

...Valerian or Ender's Game or John Carter or Jupiter Ascending...

To be fair, those properties are stupid. They were never going to be successful.

To make a film or tv show with a big budget, you need to convince the money guys that there is interest in your property. The above properties were successes in their original form, and so they were funded. The fact is that they were not good enough to be translated to film, and almost certainly were the only available franchises.

So why aren't other successful franchises not being made into movies? Well, it comes down to whether the creators are being offered the right amount. The Wheel of Time, for example, was stuck being owned by a bullshit production company who paid a pittance for it for like 15 years. Most production companies tend to offer an author between 10K and 100K for an entire property, and only JK Rowling and the author of Dune ever made a deal good enough to make them rich, and that was because they were already rich from book sales and could just say "no."

This means that most authors just won't sell the film rights, so the film industry is stuck making movies from whatever they can con out of people. Certainly, they could pay authors what a property is worth, but film production is a process that often takes a decade for a single property to go from "we just bought it" to a film in theaters, so few production companies have the money to invest in speculation. They use their funds to buy up a lot of crap, set it all into production, and hope that one or two jumps through all the hoops to eventually be made into a movie.

So why isn't Hollywood making original stuff? Well, it comes down to the budget problem. Asking for 200 mil for an unknown property is just a big ask. People forget that films like Star Wars were made by people who worked with Roger Corman and learned to make films on a shockingly shoe-string budget, so they made a sci-fi space opera on a surprisingly low amount of money ($11 mil at the time, so about $45 mil now). I rewatched Star Wars recently and realized how heavily it relies on good writing, performances, weirdness, and originality to create enough novelty to sustain audience interest, where in today's world there would be expensive action scenes with million-dollar explosions and CGI aliens who cost $100 million.

The next giant original sci-fi franchise is going to come from someone who can make it on $45 mil and make it look like $250 mil, or from an already-existing mega property.

[Thaluikhain]

Jupiter Ascending was an original story, and John Carter is (mostly) public domain, though the film's plot might almost have been an original story. Probably because the original Princess of Mars story isn't much of a story

[Mechalich]

To make a film or tv show with a big budget, you need to convince the money guys that there is interest in your property. The above properties were successes in their original form, and so they were funded. The fact is that they were not good enough to be translated to film, and almost certainly were the only available franchises.

Plenty of science fiction is still being made into films, with both big budgets and small ones, including fairly obscure sources like the Southern Reach trilogy (which was made into Annihilation). The source material is out there. Heck, they're remaking Dune, again, which actually qualifies as space opera and might even possibly be good.

It's just that in the past few decades, within the specific genre of space opera, most of the good stuff has been on TV, whether it's Battlestar Galactica or The Expanse.

I rewatched Star Wars recently and realized how heavily it relies on good writing, performances, weirdness, and originality to create enough novelty to sustain audience interest, where in today's world there would be expensive action scenes with million-dollar explosions and CGI aliens who cost $100 million.

I do think this matters, albiet in a slightly different way. The original Star Wars trilogy moves slowly by the standards of present day film-making and has a tremendous amount of exposition buried in the connective tissue of various scenes. That sort of material is largely absent from modern action films, which seems to be what the market demands space opera to be now. It's certainly what JJ Abrams tried to turn both Star Trek and Star Wars into, and that doesn't really work for space opera.

Space opera is a fairly story-driven subgenre, the audience needs to understand what the various factions are and why they are fighting. On TV you have more time to do that compared to modern movies, especially when measured against the expectations of the almost entirely character-driven superhero genre.

[K]

To make a film or tv show with a big budget, you need to convince the money guys that there is interest in your property. The above properties were successes in their original form, and so they were funded. The fact is that they were not good enough to be translated to film, and almost certainly were the only available franchises.

Plenty of science fiction is still being made into films, with both big budgets and small ones, including fairly obscure sources like the Southern Reach trilogy (which was made into Annihilation). The source material is out there. Heck, they're remaking Dune, again, which actually qualifies as space opera and might even possibly be good.

It's just that in the past few decades, within the specific genre of space opera, most of the good stuff has been on TV, whether it's Battlestar Galactica or The Expanse.

I'm a huge fan of space opera novels and literally none of my top 20 books/settings have been made into anything. This is why I made the point about getting the rights. There is a good chance that none of the successful AND good space opera have sold their rights.

For example, Annihilation was terrible, but I guess the books were successful?

The books that the Expanse is based off of were crap. When I read the first one, my first instinct was that was written specifically as TV-rights or movie-rights bait with a lot of action-heavy sections and low character development, perfect for conversion to a script.

[phlapjackage]

The books that the Expanse is based off of were crap. When I read the first one, my first instinct was that was written specifically as TV-rights or movie-rights bait with a lot of action-heavy sections and low character development, perfect for conversion to a script.

Whaaaaaaaaaaa ? I really liked the books, more so than the show. Maybe I need to read the books again, it's been awhile.

I think the point about low-budget movies is a good one, which seems like it would limit what type of sci-fi could be made. Back in the 70s people could accept low-budget space sci-fi, but nowadays they won't. So low-budget sci-fi has to go the route of something less effects-heavy like time travel (a great example is Primer or Timecrimes).

[erik]

I too enjoyed the books and tried to reflect on K’s comments. I dunno. I thought characters developed over the books. Maybe especially developed between books. I’ll have to reread em at some point.

[czernebog]

Since we're on the subject, can anyone else confirm or refute that Timothy Zahn's Conquerors' trilogy would make for a good miniseries? I've had a soft spot for it, but it ain't quite high literature, and I've never discussed it with someone else who has actually read it. It also has issues with weak character development (of human characters, at least; some of the Zhirrzh do grow in interesting, albeit predictable ways). But the setting and the plot twists made it fun.

[Mechalich]

Since we're on the subject, can anyone else confirm or refute that Timothy Zahn's Conquerors' trilogy would make for a good miniseries? I've had a soft spot for it, but it ain't quite high literature, and I've never discussed it with someone else who has actually read it. It also has issues with weak character development (of human characters, at least; some of the Zhirrzh do grow in interesting, albeit predictable ways). But the setting and the plot twists made it fun.

That story is built around the central idea that, for centuries, a species of interstellar-capable aliens is unaware of the proper nature of radio waves, which I found extremely tough to swallow even when I read the series back in high school and sounds positively ridiculous typing out now.

I think the point about low-budget movies is a good one, which seems like it would limit what type of sci-fi could be made. Back in the 70s people could accept low-budget space sci-fi, but nowadays they won't. So low-budget sci-fi has to go the route of something less effects-heavy like time travel (a great example is Primer or Timecrimes).

I wonder if vehicular-based action is a real barrier to space sci-fi. Space opera, notably, essentially demands starship combat in at least some measure, and that sort of thing is expensive to setup and put together. It's expensive enough to do in the real world and make look right - many modern action movies shoot a lot of combat sequences in small tight rooms not just to raise tension, but because it's cheaper - and a fictional backdrop just adds to the costs. The continued prevalence of space opera in the anime market (and Western animation, to a lesser degree) would also suggest this is the case.

Heck, even Marvel chooses to stage most of its big-battles in ground-based melee brawls rather than really unleash the advanced tech.

[Whipstitch]

I wonder if vehicular-based action is a real barrier to space sci-fi. Space opera, notably, essentially demands starship combat in at least some measure, and that sort of thing is expensive to setup and put together.

It mostly definitely is. Frankly, one of the issues with naval shows w/vaguely recognizable tech is that oceans and deep space are inimical to normal human life and so from a pure nuts 'n' bolts narrative perspective they're more like an obstacle/constraint to be carefully managed rather than a real location where the characters live their daily lives. In a very real sense the starship Enterprise is a setting unto itself and in most episodes its destruction would mean the series is now over.

[K]

I too enjoyed the books and tried to reflect on K’s comments. I dunno. I thought characters developed over the books. Maybe especially developed between books. I’ll have to reread em at some point.

I finished the first book, but I didn't have any interest in more, so my opinion is based on that.

[Thaluikhain]

Spiderman: Homecoming, is the worst Spiderman film yet (ok, not seen anything prior to the Maguire ones, nor MCU cameos). Boo!

Was dubious buying it, cause the "Marvel Cinematic Universe" should more properly be called the "Marvel Cinematic we've got CGI and are actively opposed to anything else-verse". Should have known better. Boo!

[erik]

Stop not liking what I like people. I won't have it. Spiderman has the best villain renditions! I look forward to what they're gonna do with the next ones.

I have a friend who hates MCU movies because... I don't know. He's a comic fan that things they're too mainstream now. I don't get it. If I had these movies growing up it woulda been awesome! I mean, I had to sit through fuckin Spawn. That's a movie I was tempted to walk out during opening credits (the opening sequence gave me a headache), and wish I had.

[Whipstitch]

Yeah, I don't really get that take. I kinda hated the Raimi spiderman movies because I felt like the tone was too schizophrenic and they bet too heavily on me caring about Peter Parker's well-being. I was just there for popcorn and a couple quips, not moping.

[Mechalich]

There is an argument to be made that the MCU movies are overly similar in matters of structure, theme, and tone, and to some extent 'if you've seen one, you've seen 'em all' (there's a reason Honest Trailers was able to do an 'every MCU movie' compilation spoof). But that's both hardly unique to the MCU, the list of modern action films that are essentially variations on Die Hard is functionally limitless, and I think undersells the modest but ultimately impactful differences between the better class of MCU films.

[deaddmwalking]

For Homecoming, at least there's a plausible explanation for why some things look like CGI. The final battle scene was generally disappointing but the motives and plan of the villain (and henchmen) seemed reasonable to a degree. Taking advantage of technology already established in the setting was good - that's a problem with so many films and TV series.

And the current Aunt May is my favorite.

[Thaluikhain]

My main issue with MCU movies is that they conflate being arrogant and unprofessional with being charming. Iron Man isn't cool or funny cause he's an annoying rich guy, unless it's the money.

Also, to an extent, showing off weird gadgets that don't do anything for the story.

[RelentlessImp]

She-Ra mostly lost me when we were supposed to pretend that Catra didn't get exactly what was coming to her when Horde Prime showed up after 4 seasons of her making things immeasurably worse. I still squeed at the les yay at the end but Catra really shoulda been punished.

[Zaranthan]

the list of modern action films that are essentially variations on Die Hard is functionally limitless

I kinda miss the flurry of obvious knock offs in the 90s. Then some hack had to go and pitch his shitty script as "Die Hard in an office building" and make everybody all self-conscious about it.

[Thaluikhain]

The Cured

Starts off quite well, but depressing, about what happens to Ireland after there was a zombie plague, where most of them got cured and became second class citizens, and some couldn't be cured.

But then they decide to make a bad action movie, and did it by making every character amazingly stupid all of a sudden.

[The Adventurer's Almanac]

I just saw Doctor Sleep.
I have a lot of questions, but one comes to mind more than any other: Why? The movie flipped between blatantly ripping off The Shining and having absolutely fucking nothing to do with it. It was jarring, to say the least.

And I could've done without the 5 minute scene of some kid being tortured and murdered. Like, 1 or 2 minutes is enough, you don't need to fucking drag it out. Christ.

[PhoneLobster]

So.

Wandavision its fucking bad right?

Its a real waste of some pretty OK actors who are trying to act pretty hard there, you can almost see their acting bone break on screen they are trying to carry this crap so hard.

It's masturbatory dumdum mystery box writing made by and for dumdums. It's bad. I'm calling it out as bad.

And frankly, I'm not a Marvel movie fan boy. But my bar isn't high for "sure fine OK" for this stuff. I wouldn't call out all that much else Marvel has done. I walked away from Iron Fist halfway through just going, eh. I didn't feel the need to go somewhere and complain about it. I was OK with people liking that thing I didn't like.

I'm not OK with people liking THIS thing I didn't like. Might as well tell me that "Another Life" deserves that second season

Oh. And lets just say people "sharing" an interest in this are dropping off hard and fast. It was hard to find anyone sharing any interest in any version of episode 4 at all, and it's been out half a week.

[angelfromanotherpin]

What bothers me is that the incredibly specific 'characters from a high adventure series are recontextualized into a retro sitcom and things are not... quite... right... honey' combo has become a standard trope. From Legends of Tomorrow to the Ducktales reboot, this is apparently just a thing that happens now.

WandaVision could be saved if the eventual answers are deep enough to elevate the early episodes somehow. I've never yet seen any MCU content that smart, alas.

[erik]

So.

Wandavision its fucking bad right?

That was my take. After the first episode I was in disbelief that they didn't break the glass in like the first 10 minutes. I was like, seriously an entire episode of this? That's... brave? I hadn't mustered the drive to watch another episode and I'm appalled that it sounds like it's gonna keep going in this vein for a while.