Bad Juju (Ebon Grove) Design Flowsheet

[Orion]

If I wanted to make a system by group discussion then I'd do it something like this:
- come up with a brief description of the system or setting

Animistic Balance-Of-Power Continent wracked by strife. The large power groups are independent of national boundaries, and so the nominal ownership of a given chunk of land changes frequently.

- create a list of themes that I want to include or encourage. Such as "Magic users and magical monsters", "Heroism and straight up combat", "Almost all melee combat", "Industrial age technology", "Jungian archetypes" and "Large guilds". Then I'd ask people to comment on these, work out which don't fit with the rest and work out which are the most important, possibly adding a couple.

Animism
Territorialism
Travel
Heroism
Logistics
Benevolence

- Then I'd work out 5-10 goals that fit each theme. So for example with "Heroism and straight up combat" you could have 'Various people including the PCs are "heroes" and as such are special', "Straight up combat is more effective or of equal effectiveness than ambushes", "There is an honour system that rewards heroic behaviour" and so on. It doesn't matter if some are stupid or don't quite fit as long as you have them. These will be commented on, reworded and so on as long as they fit the themes.

Animism:

There are a variety of bizarre spirits
They want something from humanity
They have something to offer humanity
They will sometimes fight humans
They will sometimes fight each other
They will have long-term factional relationships with PCs
They will be easily influenced by factors other than personal relationships
They will be both reasonable predictable and obviously inhuman.

Travel & Territory:

Control of a territory is magically significant
Magic-users are hard to beat on their home turf
Wilderness travel is extremely dangerous
Travel by road is extremely regulated
Spirits require human emissaries to effect anything beyond their domains.

Heroism & Benevolence:

"Special" characters can use powers and items that are useless to "mundanes"
Some powers can only be achieved through great personal risk.
Some powers can only be achieved through great personal sacrifice.
Few antagonists *must* be killed.
Considering the good of most NPCs is beneficial to the PCs

[angelfromanotherpin]

3.) What do the players (including the GM if there is one) do?

Not sure what this means?

This question is about what the people around the table are engaged in doing, if it is distinct from what the characters are doing. In D&D, the players are often 'playing a small-scale miniatures wargame' for example. There are games where the divide is bigger, such as Hero's Banner, where the characters are 'struggling on the stage of history,' and the players are 'exploring and managing the character's passions.'

6.) What types of behaviors/styles of play does your game reward (and punish if necessary)?

We want to reward players for talking first, shooting later, even against "BBEG" types. We want to reward players for avoiding confrontation when possible. We want to reward players for paying attention to and forming attachments to various NPCs.

Just as a general thing, I think you'd do well to have prospective players read some Tom Strong, which seems to be very similar thematically.

8.) How are the responsibilities of narration and credibility divided in your game?

I don't understand what "credibility" means in this context. Players should
be able to participate in crafting their surroundings. When a player says, "I look for goblins/thunderbirds/nixies," he should find them.

Credibility is about who's in charge of keeping the game making sense. If someone uses their narration privilege to declare that Batman was born a woman and has merely been an incredibly convincing transvestite all these years, is there a final authority to tell them that they're ridiculous, and what is that authority? Soap, the soap opera rpg, has very little credibility management, because the game is supposed to involve improbable transsexuals, evil twins, and alien abductions.

13.) How does the character advancement (or lack thereof) reinforce what your game is about?

Not sure; this could use more attention.

I recommend the Tom Strong model, where characters are already as badass as they're going to get, and get extra effectiveness from the allies and other relationships they manage to put together.

[Orion]

I was not aware of Tom Strong before, but thanks for the recommendation. Looking at the wikipedia, it doesn't seem particularly aesthetically similar, so I'm going to assume it's a matter of ethos/understanding of heroism.

[Orion]

I think pLayers and characters are doing pretty much the same tasks actually -- the resource management is all on an in-character level, for instance.

The PCs spend most of their time managing resources or trying to figure out how to persuade other characters. That's more or less what the players are doing.

[Orion]

Mechanical Goal: Human V Human Combat

Without using magic, the following should be true:

--fights are short and deadly; one or two blows will take down anyone
--an experienced fighter can reliably avoid harm from one or two average oponenets
--actual death is rare; most "mortal" injuries can be healed

When magic enters the picture:

--PCs have easy access to escape and sanctuary effects which allow them to survive an encounter with hostile without "winning."
--offensive spells, while difficult to acquire, can rapidly demolish large groups of minions
--countermagic and defensive spells are easier to come by than nukes, so a shootout between two groups of wizards will tend to leave both side standing.

[MartinHarper]

I'm really liking the questions and answers on the broad themes and goals on this page of the thread. Very clear - probably more so (to me) than the design flowchart on the first page.

[Orion]

I'm really liking the questions and answers on the broad themes and goals on this page of the thread. Very clear - probably more so (to me) than the design flowchart on the first page.

Thanks! If you have more questions I think you'll find me more responsive than some others.

[Orion]

Geographical Goals:

The Sandy Desert

---this desert is where the sorcerer's fled after the fall of the Ivory Tower
--- The borders of the desert are sahara-style sand, possibly created deliberately by pulverizing rocks. Grinding the rocks down also kills the native spirits, which makes the sand susceptible to sorcery; The sorcerers patrol their borders with scouring sandstorms.
--- the sorcerers themselves live in the central desert in a great fortress of ivory, obsidian, and sandstone.
--- biomass is in scarce supply, so they rely heavily on skeletal minions for their labor force.
--- the desert interior is possibly a rocky desert; the sorcerer's settlements are built around oases.
--- This faction of sorcerers is plotting revenge against the wizards by various means including attempts to develop a plague that kills spirits and/or build a robot army.

[NoDot]

--- This faction of sorcerers is plotting revenge against the wizards by various means including attempts to develop a plague that kills spirits and/or build a robot army.

While I remember Frank's reference to robots in Hindu Myth, .

[Orion]

The Sorcerer's win condition is to figure out how to create new iron spirits or find a way to binding ghosts into iron bodies, creating super-soldiers.

[Orion]

Geography Goals: The Empire

--the empire is the biggest unified political entity
--- the Ivory Tower once stood here
--- the region's wealth is largely due to infrastructure built by the sorcerers during the time of the tower
--- nonetheless, the sorcerers are hated and feared by the populace
--- the region was unified under a wizard who had led the war against the sorcerers and susbequently set himself up as ruler of the region
--- his dynasty recently came to an end and replaced relatively peacefully, with the political structure intact
--- nonetheless, some people are pissed off about this
--- relations with the Ebony Grove are good; the old wizard-kings kept a "wizardry culture" going, and with the wizard dynasty gone the new rulership have turned to the Ebon Grove for magical assistance.
--- plague and pestilence are causing unrest in the outlying provinces

[Orion]

Question: What measure is a PC?

So I have a bit of a dilemma. I'm caught between two considerations, one pushing more towards including more magic in the setting, the other towards less.

One the one hand, I want magicians of any significant power to be rare. PCs are supposed to be predicting the actions of hero-level NPCs, are supposed to fight them rarely and often in big formal duels, and are supposed to be big players in the scheme of things. This means that the number of people throwing around serious firepower has to be kept down to the level where the heroes can care about and remember them.

On the other hand, I'm increasingly thinking that magic runs the economies of this world. Most people's labors involved doing things on behalf to eh local spirits, working raw materials they provide, preparing charms to store their power, and so on. Every villages will have at least a couple of priests whose magic keeps things going.

What makes the PCs better than any old village priest?

[TarkisFlux]

Whatever you ultimately decide on, the mechanical differences will be easy to sort once you get your system chosen (better skills, more skills, some other ability). I think it would be pretty easy to fit a common lesser magic + rare greater magic system into your setting, it's just not a PC/NPC distinction you're making anymore. It's more like the Birthright blooded distinction, some people are just more awesome than others.

So while anyone can do some basic stuff with the right training, you need something extra to do the really interesting stuff. All PCs have 'it' by default because you want to tell those stories, and the important NPCs do as well so they can challenge the players. Everyone else just gets by without 'it' and doesn't have world changing magic. Couple of thoughts on what 'it' could be -
[*]Additional training or access to secrets. Potentially lots of different secret societies with different paths and benefits
[*]Chosen by the Spirits in a ritual that occurs at an early age.
[*]Marked by Destiny at birth; a visible mark may or may not be interesting in your setting.

Or take all of them, and apply them to the different classes your working on. You get both things you want: anyone with some training can do the basic stuff that keeps life going but people who can do the big stuff are rare and special.

[zeruslord]

How about just lowering the obviousness and instantaneousness of generic priest magic? They make offerings to Rain Spirits and get rain in return, things like that. Base it off real-world animism and ancestor worship, and it'll feel fantastic and let the PCs still be better.

[Orion]

How about just lowering the obviousness and instantaneousness of generic priest magic? They make offerings to Rain Spirits and get rain in return, things like that. Base it off real-world animism and ancestor worship, and it'll feel fantastic and let the PCs still be better.

I'm down with this, but it leaves the main questionunanswered: What's the difference between NPC priestly magic and PC-style magic? Do PCs just have higher dicepools and better contacts? Do they have more and better spells for charm-making? Or are they using a completely different set of mechanics?

And how did the PCs come by their "high magic" anyway? Arduous training? Chosen by divinity? Special gift? TarkisFlux is on the right tack, I think.

[Avoraciopoctules]

Question: What measure is a PC?
What makes the PCs better than any old village priest?

PCs have ambition and the willingness to sacrifice things most others would find too valuable to give up?

Let's say for example that to call upon the green fire of Plas'Holdar, you need to carve a four sentence incantation into the flesh of one arm and rub salt over the wounds at least once a week to get your charms charged.

Now, most people aren't going to bother with this. It's a lot of pain to go through for the ability to cauterize injuries, create distracting flashes of light, and otherwise produce vaguely useful things. You can't even get a reliable campfire going usually, since the green fire burns, then disappears, rarely actually setting something on fire.

Besides, Plas'Holdar is a jerk. He's probably making you rub salt into the cuts in your arm because he finds it thoroughly satisfying, perhaps even entertaining. Unless you're really a connoisseur when it comes to charms that burn things, you'll stick with lesser spirits of burnination with considerably less exacting entry requirements.

- - -

Personally, I dislike settings where a person can be born with random superpowers, but if they are not, there's little they can do to close the gap. I'd prefer something that would let a generic low-magic NPC close the gap given time, luck, and work and/or sacrifice. It doesn't necessarily have to be easy, but it would be nice to have the option of playing someone middle-aged or even old only recently come to power.

[Orion]

Question: what do spirits wan from the PCs?

I'm gonna assume a lot of the time it's just labor. The PCs do work on the land of the spirit's domain: draining bogs, hunting excess animals, planting trees, building shrines and cairns, etc. That way we can assume the PCs can stock up on minor magics during downtime.

But when you want a spell which the DM doesn't just want to hand out for free, what do the spirits ask for?

-- sometimes they'll ask for defense against a threat to them or their domain; it starts a subquest to stop a logging operation, root out a band of highwaymen, drive out a destructive sorcerer or rival spirits.

But we can't use that one every time. Here are some other ideas:

Do the spirits want rare sacrifices? Maybe they require very particular items to be brought to them. This could be as simple as paying cash for spells, or as complicated as a multi-step, multi-patron fetch quest.

Do spirits want worship? This is a rough one; I like the idea that spirits want *monuments* and to be *glorified*, so building shrines out in the woods pleases the forest gods; but do they expect the villagers to come and pray/sacrifice there? I like the idea of each village having a patron god who protects them and encourages their main industry, but there's a potential problem: if commanding large numbers of mundane humans gets you magic powers, then the best wizards will be kings. That's potentially cool, but it limits the types of stories that can be told; I like the idea of the PCs as itinerants perpetually alone against a larger world, and would like to be able to tell that story as well.

Do the spirits have agendas? That is, to what extent do they care about the world outside their domain? I'm inclined to say that spirits should be pretty myopic. It emphasizes their inhuman nature, and keeps the PCs mojo in line with their skills. You might be on a literal quest to save the world, but that doesn't mean any particular dryad or nixie will give you the time of day. It also means PCs can screw up and offend the local gods of one region without acquiring permanent enemies. But maybe the Spirits want to control things outside their domain but can't, and therefore make the PCs their agents.

[zeruslord]

The animism stuff doesn't get you fireballs or anything. It gets you exactly what traditional practices say you get: the volcano doesn't blow up, the hunt is good if you apologize to the buffalo spirits, praying to the Jagular God gets you the right amount of rain, and worshiping the Forest Spirit means the paths stay in place. If you want to throw fireballs, that's going to take some real sacrifices and services. Some of those services could lead to you dying, and only an adventurer type is willing to go and risk their life so they can throw fireballs.

[Orion]

Question: What do I need to do to get this project to the point where other people would be able to contribute?

Also, one idea for the interim: a list of charm effects people want in, or want to exclude.

[zeruslord]

Give us a feel for the world. Name a film the world works like. Name a book or series that the game sounds like. Link a half-dozen pictures of adventurers and spirits.

[Orion]

I fail at technology; what is the best way to imbed pictures here?

[zeruslord]

Code: Select all

[img]http://tgdmb.com/templates/subSilver/images/logo_phpBB.gif[/img]

That would give you the phpBB logo from the top. Replace with something sensible as needed.

[Orion]

One might enchant an object here.

Edit: fuck.

[zeruslord]

Are those supposed to be trees or monoliths? Monoliths I could see as a human created power/ritual site.

The code tags are specifically so that it doesn't process anything inside.

[TavishArtair]

Do spirits want worship? This is a rough one; I like the idea that spirits want *monuments* and to be *glorified*, so building shrines out in the woods pleases the forest gods; but do they expect the villagers to come and pray/sacrifice there? I like the idea of each village having a patron god who protects them and encourages their main industry, but there's a potential problem: if commanding large numbers of mundane humans gets you magic powers, then the best wizards will be kings. That's potentially cool, but it limits the types of stories that can be told; I like the idea of the PCs as itinerants perpetually alone against a larger world, and would like to be able to tell that story as well.

If you want a paradigm that allows for worship while not overemphasizing its place, then why not go and say... the important parts are real-estate. Good real-estate keeps good mojo flowing. Occasional prayers and incense-burning are necessary to maintain the proper atmosphere for the mojo. Accordingly, as an independent wizard, you can do this, if you want to devote most all of your time. However, the full setup usually has a more complicated arrangement, with a monastery or temple being set up which has numerous wizards accessing the spirits there, as well as lay servants of those wizard-priests helping them do more maintenance work than they individually could do, and a surrounding community which comes and occasionally burns incense and such as part of praying but mostly is offering up other services for the temple that keep it functional like farm labor and so on in exchange for protection under the temple's aegis.

The worship that peasants conduct is mostly so that the wizards and spirits at hand can contemplate how best to answer the needs of those around them, while still keeping the mojo flowing. The wizards function chiefly as intermediaries between humans and the spirit world. If all the peasants stopped worshipping, making offerings, and generally contributing to the temple, it would only have an affect on the spirits because of the dominos falling... the temple's maintenance goes hungry, less work is done on the temple and more on satisfying their own needs, in addition to straight-up loss of numbers due to the lack of a free lunch anymore, the wizards are left with doing mostly their own work, so they can't spend as much time doing interesting things, which means the temple might persist but will have much reduced influence and the spirits will have less mojo. It will probably still be just as challenging to attack the temple since the reduction in mojo and overall influence will not stop them from laying down all the cards in hand in order to save themselves, but the wizards of the temple will have less opportunity to go beat people up. The fact that how nice the real-estate is is the important part also limits the general effect of having a large population nearby, in some cases it can even be detrimental, but they can't do entirely without humanity, so you tend to have wizard's towers glowering nearby, in a liminal location, off to the side of proper "civilization." This, I think, satisfies a lot of appropriate fantastic paradigms.