Still workin on these, just distracted lately...
One thing that I'd like some input on is the interaction between Int bonus and skills setup like this. If these are largely level appropriate, then each 2 points of int over 10 gets you another level appropriate ability as you invest that point in skills.
Does that vault the stat up to a way too important level?
Why can't 3.x skill monkeys have nice skills?
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TarkisFlux
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The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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If all stats are roughly equal in import, then no, of course it's not unbalanced. Boosting a stat and getting a couple more percentage points of success on related skills out of it is fine, because it just makes things more reliable and doesn't impact when you get it. Adding to that setup a system where 1 stat lets you get bonus tome feats as you boosted it would be... concerning... for me and worth a look.
I don't think these are as strong as tome feats, at least I've been trying to keep them that way, but that's what I'm worried about here. The acquisition structure might be such that it doesn't matter if you get a couple more of them for your high Int or not, and I'm inclined to say 1) "Yes, Int is a stronger stat now. No, it's not that big a deal since it didn't do much for most classes before anyway" or 2) "Bonus skill points for Int was dumb anyway. It doesn't do that anymore, and all classes just get 2 sp more than written", but I had hoped to get some alternate takes on it.
I don't think these are as strong as tome feats, at least I've been trying to keep them that way, but that's what I'm worried about here. The acquisition structure might be such that it doesn't matter if you get a couple more of them for your high Int or not, and I'm inclined to say 1) "Yes, Int is a stronger stat now. No, it's not that big a deal since it didn't do much for most classes before anyway" or 2) "Bonus skill points for Int was dumb anyway. It doesn't do that anymore, and all classes just get 2 sp more than written", but I had hoped to get some alternate takes on it.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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More stuff. Roguey skills now.
Devices (short for disable devices and open lock)
Search
Legerdemain (yes, I know it means the same thing, I just hated the sound of the other one)
Devices (short for disable devices and open lock)
The rank 10 ability sorta steps on the rank 14 Professional Luddite feat ability. That looks like a standard action though, while this isn't, and that difference in speed still makes it worthwhile. Especially if failure in that just allowed you to roll right on into the regular ability.
Untrained uses:
Smash simple devices – You can disable a lever or pulley, and other obvious, relatively simple stuff. Simple devices also include simple solutions, suck as jamming a lock so it is unusable. In general, you may disable any device with a DC of 10 or less. This can be done as a full round action, with a successful check. If you fail the check by 5 or more, you trigger the device instead. If you wish to hide your work so the device appears untampered, increase the DC by 5. You may retry this check if you have reason to believe the check failed, and a retry would still be appropriate.
Since you don’t know the disable DC of a particular device, you can attempt to disable anything you want with this ability. Attempts to disarm Tricky (DC 11 to 15) or Difficult (DC 16 to 20) are treated as attempting to use the rank 1 ability, and subject to the standard disable length and a -5 check penalty.
Rank 1 Uses:
Disable Tricky and Difficult Devices - You’ve learned a bit about how these things work, and can successfully disable more difficult devices. Tricky devices include traps with DCs between 11 and 15, as well as straightforward sabotage of mechanical devices like weapon handles or wagon wheels. Difficult devices include all traps with a DC between 16 and 20, as well as more complicated sabotage like bowstrings that snap on first use. Tricky devices require 1d4 rounds to disable, the check is made after the time is invested. Difficult devices require 2d4 rounds to disable. If you fail the check by 5 or more you trigger the device instead. If you succeed by 10 or more you learn how the trap operates, and can bypass it without disabling or triggering it. Alternately you can temporarily disable it; it requires only a standard action to re-enable it later on. If you wish to rush the job, you may add 10 to the DC for each d4 of time you wish to eliminate. 2d4 to 1d4 would add 10 for example, and 1d4 to 1 would add another 10 to the DC.
You can also use this ability to sabotage devices and hide your work. For example, you could rig a wagon wheel to break after a mile or a clock to fail at precisely midnight. The DC for these tasks must be lower than 20 for you to attempt it with this ability.
Rank 4 Uses:
Disable Fiendish Devices – You’ve got all the basics down and can attempt to disable anything you run across. You also understand the core concepts in disabling placed magical traps. You can attempt to disarm any mechanical trap with a DC of 21 or higher, as well as complete complicated, precision sabotage. Fiendish devices require 2d4 rounds to disable. Additionally you can disable magical traps or spells that create traps; these generally have a DC of 15 + caster level. Magical traps also require 2d4 rounds to disable. All of the rules and DC modifications from the Disable Tricky and Difficult Devices ability are carried over as well.
You can perform more subtle sabotage with this ability. For example, you could cause bow strings to snap when next drawn or a wagon to explode if it drops below a certain speed.
Rank 6 Uses:
Item Feedback – You can use your knowledge of magical traps and items to rig magic items to backfire when next used. This allows you to pre-determine the target of a wand, change the spell activated from a stave, or even to short out and be inoperable for 1d4 rounds as if it had been dispelled. You can specify any parameters of the spell you like, and other modifications may be made to other items if your GM allows it. The DC for this check is 15 + Caster Level of the item, and doing so requires 1d4 rounds of work. If you fail the check by 5 or more you drain 1d4 charges from the item and fail to trap it.
Once an item has been trapped it remains so until the trap is sprung. A trapped item can be disarmed like any other trap; the DC is equal to 15 + caster level.
Rank 8 Uses:
Pick Arcane Locks – Nothing is more annoying than a lock you can’t pick. You have learned how to disable the binding created from an Arcane Lock and similar spells in addition to regular locks. The DC to suppress an Arcane Lock is 18 + the spell’s caster level. It takes 1d4 rounds to suppress the lock. If you succeed, the lock is suppressed for 1 minute. If you succeed by 10 or more, you can adjust the magic so the lock mistakes you for the caster for 24 hours. If you fail by 5 or more the lock seizes; you can not attempt to suppress it in this fashion again until the owner passes through it.
Hey, Look, A Trap – With a bit of work, you can make it look like an object is trapped. With 1d4 rounds worth of work, you add enough bits to fake a trap. Since the trap is intended to slow people down instead of actually harming them (which would be accomplished with an actual trap), this false trap is easy to find, requiring only a DC 10 search check to uncover. When an attempt is made to disarm it, the attempt is always successful, revealing the trap to be a fake.
Rank 10 Uses:
Disable Active Spells – Spells waiting in traps are really just practice for active spells that are less forgiving. You are able to dispel magic that is active on objects or in an area, but you are unable to dispel magic that is active upon specific creatures. This would allow you to disable invisibility on an object, a wall of fire, or even an Antipathy effect (since it affects an area) but not to remove a charm monster or sleep effect (which affects specific creatures in an area at the time of casting). The DC for this check is 20 + the spell’s caster level, and the check is made after 1d4 rounds. You must be in the same square as the spell to attempt this check, likely suffering under the effects of the spell for that time.
Untrained uses:
Smash simple devices – You can disable a lever or pulley, and other obvious, relatively simple stuff. Simple devices also include simple solutions, suck as jamming a lock so it is unusable. In general, you may disable any device with a DC of 10 or less. This can be done as a full round action, with a successful check. If you fail the check by 5 or more, you trigger the device instead. If you wish to hide your work so the device appears untampered, increase the DC by 5. You may retry this check if you have reason to believe the check failed, and a retry would still be appropriate.
Since you don’t know the disable DC of a particular device, you can attempt to disable anything you want with this ability. Attempts to disarm Tricky (DC 11 to 15) or Difficult (DC 16 to 20) are treated as attempting to use the rank 1 ability, and subject to the standard disable length and a -5 check penalty.
Rank 1 Uses:
Disable Tricky and Difficult Devices - You’ve learned a bit about how these things work, and can successfully disable more difficult devices. Tricky devices include traps with DCs between 11 and 15, as well as straightforward sabotage of mechanical devices like weapon handles or wagon wheels. Difficult devices include all traps with a DC between 16 and 20, as well as more complicated sabotage like bowstrings that snap on first use. Tricky devices require 1d4 rounds to disable, the check is made after the time is invested. Difficult devices require 2d4 rounds to disable. If you fail the check by 5 or more you trigger the device instead. If you succeed by 10 or more you learn how the trap operates, and can bypass it without disabling or triggering it. Alternately you can temporarily disable it; it requires only a standard action to re-enable it later on. If you wish to rush the job, you may add 10 to the DC for each d4 of time you wish to eliminate. 2d4 to 1d4 would add 10 for example, and 1d4 to 1 would add another 10 to the DC.
You can also use this ability to sabotage devices and hide your work. For example, you could rig a wagon wheel to break after a mile or a clock to fail at precisely midnight. The DC for these tasks must be lower than 20 for you to attempt it with this ability.
Rank 4 Uses:
Disable Fiendish Devices – You’ve got all the basics down and can attempt to disable anything you run across. You also understand the core concepts in disabling placed magical traps. You can attempt to disarm any mechanical trap with a DC of 21 or higher, as well as complete complicated, precision sabotage. Fiendish devices require 2d4 rounds to disable. Additionally you can disable magical traps or spells that create traps; these generally have a DC of 15 + caster level. Magical traps also require 2d4 rounds to disable. All of the rules and DC modifications from the Disable Tricky and Difficult Devices ability are carried over as well.
You can perform more subtle sabotage with this ability. For example, you could cause bow strings to snap when next drawn or a wagon to explode if it drops below a certain speed.
Rank 6 Uses:
Item Feedback – You can use your knowledge of magical traps and items to rig magic items to backfire when next used. This allows you to pre-determine the target of a wand, change the spell activated from a stave, or even to short out and be inoperable for 1d4 rounds as if it had been dispelled. You can specify any parameters of the spell you like, and other modifications may be made to other items if your GM allows it. The DC for this check is 15 + Caster Level of the item, and doing so requires 1d4 rounds of work. If you fail the check by 5 or more you drain 1d4 charges from the item and fail to trap it.
Once an item has been trapped it remains so until the trap is sprung. A trapped item can be disarmed like any other trap; the DC is equal to 15 + caster level.
Rank 8 Uses:
Pick Arcane Locks – Nothing is more annoying than a lock you can’t pick. You have learned how to disable the binding created from an Arcane Lock and similar spells in addition to regular locks. The DC to suppress an Arcane Lock is 18 + the spell’s caster level. It takes 1d4 rounds to suppress the lock. If you succeed, the lock is suppressed for 1 minute. If you succeed by 10 or more, you can adjust the magic so the lock mistakes you for the caster for 24 hours. If you fail by 5 or more the lock seizes; you can not attempt to suppress it in this fashion again until the owner passes through it.
Hey, Look, A Trap – With a bit of work, you can make it look like an object is trapped. With 1d4 rounds worth of work, you add enough bits to fake a trap. Since the trap is intended to slow people down instead of actually harming them (which would be accomplished with an actual trap), this false trap is easy to find, requiring only a DC 10 search check to uncover. When an attempt is made to disarm it, the attempt is always successful, revealing the trap to be a fake.
Rank 10 Uses:
Disable Active Spells – Spells waiting in traps are really just practice for active spells that are less forgiving. You are able to dispel magic that is active on objects or in an area, but you are unable to dispel magic that is active upon specific creatures. This would allow you to disable invisibility on an object, a wall of fire, or even an Antipathy effect (since it affects an area) but not to remove a charm monster or sleep effect (which affects specific creatures in an area at the time of casting). The DC for this check is 20 + the spell’s caster level, and the check is made after 1d4 rounds. You must be in the same square as the spell to attempt this check, likely suffering under the effects of the spell for that time.
This skill is pretty boring, but also slightly problematic without trapfinding; it's about the only thing that makes the search skill worth a damn. So I'm stealing that class ability and putting it into search by default, and redefining trapfinding down at the bottom.
Untrained Uses:
Examine Area – People hide secret doors and traps all over the place, and if you want to use or avoid them you have to be able to find them first. It’s the same thing with foot prints and other clues, you have to be able to find them before they can help you.
The DC to find a secret door or trap is determined by their construction. With this level of training, you can not find anything with a DC higher than 20.
Rank 4 Uses:
Search – You have picked up a fair bit of the tricks that people use to conceal things. When examining an area, you are not limited to the common, trite tricks used to hide triggers or caches and may discover hidden things with a DC above 20 when you search.
Trapfinding: Characters with this ability may, as a full round action, move their base speed and also search for traps in each square immediately before they step into it. They may take 12 on these search checks if they like.
Untrained Uses:
Examine Area – People hide secret doors and traps all over the place, and if you want to use or avoid them you have to be able to find them first. It’s the same thing with foot prints and other clues, you have to be able to find them before they can help you.
The DC to find a secret door or trap is determined by their construction. With this level of training, you can not find anything with a DC higher than 20.
Rank 4 Uses:
Search – You have picked up a fair bit of the tricks that people use to conceal things. When examining an area, you are not limited to the common, trite tricks used to hide triggers or caches and may discover hidden things with a DC above 20 when you search.
Trapfinding: Characters with this ability may, as a full round action, move their base speed and also search for traps in each square immediately before they step into it. They may take 12 on these search checks if they like.
The early abilities are stolen from Iaimeki, and play into later things quite nicely.
Rank 1 uses:
Conceal Object - You can hide on object at least two size categories smaller than yourself on your person. Anyone attempting to find the hidden object rolls a Perception check against your Legerdemain check. Daggers and similar weapons designed to be hidden give you a +2 bonus on the check, items three or more size categories smaller than you give you a +4 bonus, and wearing heavy or baggy clothing gives you a +2 bonus in any event. If you are being frisked, your opponent gains a +4 bonus to their check.
With a DC 20 Legerdemain check, you can draw a hidden weapon as if it was openly displayed; the exact action depends on your base attack bonus.
Palm Object - With a DC 10 Legerdemain check, you can palm an object at least two size categories smaller than yourself that you have in your possession: for instance, make a coin ‘disappear’ or poisoning a drink. If someone observes you while you do this, they may make a Perception check to notice you doing it, but this doesn’t prevent you from performing the action.
Steal Object - If you want to take something from another creature without their noticing it, you have to combine a Legerdemain check with a disarm attempt (most targets will be flatfooted against this attempt). Whether you are actually grabbing an object, slitting a coin purse and catching falling coin, or reaching into a sack to remove an item you make a disarm check. If your disarm check is successful you have taken the item from them, if it is unsuccessful you did not. After the attempt you make a Legerdemain check opposed by their Perception check to see if they notice your attempted removal of the item. You gain a +4 bonus to this roll if you failed to take the item.
You can only take an item that’s two or small size categories smaller than you, and generally only an item that they aren’t paying active attention to (i.e., not a wielded weapon or something similar).
Rank 4 uses:
Plant Evidence – Instead of taking something from another person, you can place something on them instead. You follow the same procedure as if you were stealing from them to avoid detection.
Rank 6 uses:
Ventriloquism – You can throw your voice so that it appears to come from some person or object other than you. You must succeed on a Legerdemain check to use this ability, the DC is equal to 10 + the distance from you to the object you wish your voice to come from. If you remain stationary, each check is good for 10 minutes. If you move, you must make a new check each round with the DC to a new object. Your voice can not come out of thin air with this ability; you must pick an object to act as the new source.
Rank 8 uses:
My Disappearing Pig Trick – You can make objects of your size category or smaller ‘vanish’, when really you’re just distracting someone while you move the object under or behind nearby cover. As with the Palm Object ability above, you make a Legerdemain check opposed by your observers’ Perception checks. If you are moving the object to cover greater than 5 feet away, you suffer a -2 cumulative penalty for each additional foot. Failure of this check does not negate your moving the object to cover, but it does indicate that someone saw it.
If you don’t have a sheet, cloak, or some other way to keep observers from seeing the object you suffer a -10 penalty to your Legerdemain check. You must be able to move the object with your strength, though you may simply provide the distraction for people or objects that can move on their own.
Rank 10 uses:
Almost Nothing I Can’t Steal - With a -10 cumulative penalty for each size category larger than listed above, you can handle objects of larger size than normally allowed for the Conceal, Palm, and Steal Object and Plant Evidence abilities of Legerdemain. This penalty only applies to your Legerdemain check to avoid detection, and does not affect your check to take the item.
You may also take an object that is being paid attention to if you accept a -20 penalty to your Legerdemain check. As above, failing the opposed check does not prevent the action, so you can still swipe whatever you want, but failing does indicate that they saw you do it. Some attended objects, like shirts or pants, are still beyond your ability.
Rank 1 uses:
Conceal Object - You can hide on object at least two size categories smaller than yourself on your person. Anyone attempting to find the hidden object rolls a Perception check against your Legerdemain check. Daggers and similar weapons designed to be hidden give you a +2 bonus on the check, items three or more size categories smaller than you give you a +4 bonus, and wearing heavy or baggy clothing gives you a +2 bonus in any event. If you are being frisked, your opponent gains a +4 bonus to their check.
With a DC 20 Legerdemain check, you can draw a hidden weapon as if it was openly displayed; the exact action depends on your base attack bonus.
Palm Object - With a DC 10 Legerdemain check, you can palm an object at least two size categories smaller than yourself that you have in your possession: for instance, make a coin ‘disappear’ or poisoning a drink. If someone observes you while you do this, they may make a Perception check to notice you doing it, but this doesn’t prevent you from performing the action.
Steal Object - If you want to take something from another creature without their noticing it, you have to combine a Legerdemain check with a disarm attempt (most targets will be flatfooted against this attempt). Whether you are actually grabbing an object, slitting a coin purse and catching falling coin, or reaching into a sack to remove an item you make a disarm check. If your disarm check is successful you have taken the item from them, if it is unsuccessful you did not. After the attempt you make a Legerdemain check opposed by their Perception check to see if they notice your attempted removal of the item. You gain a +4 bonus to this roll if you failed to take the item.
You can only take an item that’s two or small size categories smaller than you, and generally only an item that they aren’t paying active attention to (i.e., not a wielded weapon or something similar).
Rank 4 uses:
Plant Evidence – Instead of taking something from another person, you can place something on them instead. You follow the same procedure as if you were stealing from them to avoid detection.
Rank 6 uses:
Ventriloquism – You can throw your voice so that it appears to come from some person or object other than you. You must succeed on a Legerdemain check to use this ability, the DC is equal to 10 + the distance from you to the object you wish your voice to come from. If you remain stationary, each check is good for 10 minutes. If you move, you must make a new check each round with the DC to a new object. Your voice can not come out of thin air with this ability; you must pick an object to act as the new source.
Rank 8 uses:
My Disappearing Pig Trick – You can make objects of your size category or smaller ‘vanish’, when really you’re just distracting someone while you move the object under or behind nearby cover. As with the Palm Object ability above, you make a Legerdemain check opposed by your observers’ Perception checks. If you are moving the object to cover greater than 5 feet away, you suffer a -2 cumulative penalty for each additional foot. Failure of this check does not negate your moving the object to cover, but it does indicate that someone saw it.
If you don’t have a sheet, cloak, or some other way to keep observers from seeing the object you suffer a -10 penalty to your Legerdemain check. You must be able to move the object with your strength, though you may simply provide the distraction for people or objects that can move on their own.
Rank 10 uses:
Almost Nothing I Can’t Steal - With a -10 cumulative penalty for each size category larger than listed above, you can handle objects of larger size than normally allowed for the Conceal, Palm, and Steal Object and Plant Evidence abilities of Legerdemain. This penalty only applies to your Legerdemain check to avoid detection, and does not affect your check to take the item.
You may also take an object that is being paid attention to if you accept a -20 penalty to your Legerdemain check. As above, failing the opposed check does not prevent the action, so you can still swipe whatever you want, but failing does indicate that they saw you do it. Some attended objects, like shirts or pants, are still beyond your ability.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Sorry Crissa, thought I'd responded to this already. :-/Crissa wrote:I think I like giving characters ways to improve their breadth of knowledge.
I like giving characters ways to improve their breadth of knowledge, but I don't want to conflate knowledge with ability. I really don't care if some characters know the weaknesses of a frost giant or a succubus or a quadrone or whatever. That knowledge may come from random roll of a skill they've been investing in, or specific in-game research, or even player knowledge and I'm fine with that. Knowledge isn't really an "action" in any sense that characters can succeed or fail on (except when used as a must-succeed-to-proceed quest post); at worst the lack of knowledge just means you make sub-optimal decisions with the pool of abilities that you have.
Compared to spontaneously remembering if you've ever heard anything about a platinum clockwork horror, picking an arcane lock or bluffing a scry sensor is another option that might be in your arsenal. I'm perfectly comfortable with characters knowing, in general, how to do these things, but I'm less comfortable with characters being able to do those things reliably on top of all the other things they can do. Especially if it's only by virtue of having a high stat compared to someone else.
Maybe this just needs a non-shit skill re-training system, so you can take a large breadth of challenges given a bit of prep-time but you don't get that same wide breadth by virtue of just can't just having a high Int.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Tarkis - Could you edit in all the skills you have written so far into your first post? It would make this much easier to navigate and comment on.
Everything I learned about DnD, I learned from Frank Trollman.
Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.
souran wrote:...uber, nerd-rage-inducing, minutia-devoted, pointless blithering shit.
Schwarzkopf wrote:The Den, your one-stop shop for in-depth analysis of Dungeons & Dragons and distressingly credible threats of oral rape.
DSM wrote:Apparently, The GM's Going To Punch You in Your Goddamned Face edition of D&D is getting more traction than I expected. Well, it beats playing 4th. Probably 5th, too.
Frank Trollman wrote:Giving someone a mouth full of cock is a standard action.
PoliteNewb wrote:If size means anything, it's what position you have to get in to give a BJ.
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TarkisFlux
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Yeah Sinister, I can do that. It'll be up in a while.
[Edit]And they're copied to the front page. I'll keep adding them to that post, as well as adding a new post to the thread, when they're ready... Anyone know what the maximum post length is?
[Edit]And they're copied to the front page. I'll keep adding them to that post, as well as adding a new post to the thread, when they're ready... Anyone know what the maximum post length is?
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Sun Mar 22, 2009 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
50, 000 characters, IIRC.
As for your stuff - it is actually very, very good. However, why is Jump standalone from Athletics? Are you using PHB skills, rolled skills, or something in-between?
As for your stuff - it is actually very, very good. However, why is Jump standalone from Athletics? Are you using PHB skills, rolled skills, or something in-between?
Last edited by koz on Sun Apr 12, 2009 4:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
Everything I learned about DnD, I learned from Frank Trollman.
Kaelik wrote:You are so full of Strawmen that I can only assume you actually shit actual straw.
souran wrote:...uber, nerd-rage-inducing, minutia-devoted, pointless blithering shit.
Schwarzkopf wrote:The Den, your one-stop shop for in-depth analysis of Dungeons & Dragons and distressingly credible threats of oral rape.
DSM wrote:Apparently, The GM's Going To Punch You in Your Goddamned Face edition of D&D is getting more traction than I expected. Well, it beats playing 4th. Probably 5th, too.
Frank Trollman wrote:Giving someone a mouth full of cock is a standard action.
PoliteNewb wrote:If size means anything, it's what position you have to get in to give a BJ.
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TarkisFlux
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I'll happily take that for a work in progress. It's been somewhat delayed by real life stresses and interruptions, but that's a song we all know I'm sure.
As for the skill list, I'd originally intended to not do any merging in this and instead save the rolling together and reimaginings for later after a more coherent picture had formed. Along the way I gave up that silly notion because I wanted to attempt to balance similar use skills, and it evolved into something in-between. I try to call out where that's happening though, to avoid confusion.
I'm actually doing a more condensed version for my use (breaking up UMD uses into several other skills, spellcraft into 3 relevant knowledges, and doing significant knowledge skill adjustments along with other changes/reassignments) and just posting what I consider the necessary consolidations here with the updated skill uses. Mine is a lot more campaign specific and didn't seem worth posting as a result.
There were a couple of reasons I didn't merge jump and athletics (climb + swim). Part of it was that I added running to athletics and thought it was already quite solid at that point. Jump is actually a solid skill on its own with IGTNs scaling change and it really didn't need substantial assistance, so the stuff I added was mostly extra uses or minor math adjustment. Leap of the Winds, however, synergizes ridiculously well with the running extension abilities of athletics and I didn't want that to occur for free. I also didn't want to remove either of them since the skills complete if you ignore/don't get that synergy. You can get short bursts of large movement out of jump, but greater distance movement (vertical or horizontal) out of athletics. They're both useful on their own for different types of movement, combining them would have destroyed that. Besides, climbing, running, and swimming aren't about strength, they're about endurance (so Con), and got moved over to that stat. Jump didn't seem to fit that assignment. And from an aesthetics point, this gives me a Str movement skill in Jump, a Dex movement skill in Acrobatics, and a Con movement skill in Athletics. So the necessary movement love is spread around.
As for the skill list, I'd originally intended to not do any merging in this and instead save the rolling together and reimaginings for later after a more coherent picture had formed. Along the way I gave up that silly notion because I wanted to attempt to balance similar use skills, and it evolved into something in-between. I try to call out where that's happening though, to avoid confusion.
I'm actually doing a more condensed version for my use (breaking up UMD uses into several other skills, spellcraft into 3 relevant knowledges, and doing significant knowledge skill adjustments along with other changes/reassignments) and just posting what I consider the necessary consolidations here with the updated skill uses. Mine is a lot more campaign specific and didn't seem worth posting as a result.
There were a couple of reasons I didn't merge jump and athletics (climb + swim). Part of it was that I added running to athletics and thought it was already quite solid at that point. Jump is actually a solid skill on its own with IGTNs scaling change and it really didn't need substantial assistance, so the stuff I added was mostly extra uses or minor math adjustment. Leap of the Winds, however, synergizes ridiculously well with the running extension abilities of athletics and I didn't want that to occur for free. I also didn't want to remove either of them since the skills complete if you ignore/don't get that synergy. You can get short bursts of large movement out of jump, but greater distance movement (vertical or horizontal) out of athletics. They're both useful on their own for different types of movement, combining them would have destroyed that. Besides, climbing, running, and swimming aren't about strength, they're about endurance (so Con), and got moved over to that stat. Jump didn't seem to fit that assignment. And from an aesthetics point, this gives me a Str movement skill in Jump, a Dex movement skill in Acrobatics, and a Con movement skill in Athletics. So the necessary movement love is spread around.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Based on what you have said, I can see your system evolving into a variant skill set, which would actually be quite cool. If you could get that up here sometime, it would be great to see.
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TarkisFlux
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Sure, I can post those. I just realized that I actually had UMD all done just broken up in other places, so I'll get that posted first and added to the front page.
Use Magic Device
Use Magic Device
I've pulled the scroll deciphering ability and put it into Decipher Script. Feel free to move it back it you want it all under one roof of course.
Special: Normally this check is made as part of the activation action, but items that provide a continuous bonus do not have an activation action. You must expend an immediate action to activate and benefit from a continuous item, you make the check at the same time as you spend the action. If you succeed it will function until the beginning of you next turn; if you exceed the DC by 5 or more it will function for 1 minute without additional attention.
Rank 1 Uses:
Forced Alignment – Your understanding of the forces of belief and faith allows you to force magic items to respond to you when they otherwise wouldn’t. If an item requires its user to have a specific alignment besides yours, you may activate the item anyway, the DC for this check equals the item’s caster level +10. A successful check allows the item to function normally for 1 round, during which time you can use charges or receive its benefits as appropriate.
Recognize Ancestry – Your understanding of the world and its ways allows you to will magic items to respond to you when they otherwise wouldn’t. If an item requires its user to be a member of a race besides yours, you may activate the item anyway, the DC for this check equals the item’s caster level +10. A successful check allows the item to function normally for 1 round, during which time you can use charges or receive its benefits as appropriate.
The Finishing Stroke – Your ability to analyze magical scripts also lets you guess at the missing stroke or word that will release their stored power. You may attempt to activate any scroll or other spell completion item that you have previously deciphered. You must have a minimum score of 10 + spell level in the relevant ability to use a scroll or similar item. If you have less than this you must fake it with another ability or you suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to your roll for each point you are short. The DC for this check is equal to 15 + the caster level of the spell stored in the object. If you fail by less than 5 the item is activated, but you suffer a 20% chance of a mishap for each point you failed the check by (see scroll mishaps in the DMG).
There’s a Trick to It - Magic items can be coaxed to work for people they weren’t intended for, if you know how to ask them. If a magic item requires a certain class feature to operate, you can fake the ability and use the item. You can also fake a class spell list for spell trigger items like wands. The DC for this check is 15 + class level required to use the ability. You can not use this ability to acquire a class feature that can only be gained by a character of higher level than yourself. It can not give you an effective class level, effective caster level, or similar ability of a character higher level than your own.
Rank 4 Uses:
Activate Blindly – You know enough random bits about magic to activate magic items, even when you have no idea what they do or how they work. As a standard action (or longer if it takes more time to activate the item) and a DC 12+CL check you can trigger any item in your possession. If you fail by 5 or more the item loses 1d4 charges but generates no other effects. If you have previously activated the item before, you gain a +3 bonus to this check.
Once it has been activated, you have a 50% chance of controlling it, plus 5% for each point that you exceeded the check by. You are allowed to make this percentile check yourself. If you succeed, you dictate how the item activates. If you do not control the item, the GM is encouraged to be entertaining with the effect. Maybe it fires off too many charges, maybe it selects a different valid target, maybe it falls dormant for a time, or maybe the effect is delayed for several rounds…
Fake It Until You Make It – Some magic items require a stronger individual to utilize properly, and you know how to make them think you’re better than you are. If a magic item requires a certain ability score to function, you can try to fake it. The DC for this check is 15 + the minimum required ability score. If you succeed on the check, the item functions as if you have the minimum required ability score. If the item requires a separate skill check to activate, both of these checks are made at the same time, so you are bound to the results of this check upon activation. You can not gain an effective ability score higher than the minimum required with this ability.
Rank 6 Uses:
Item Feedback – You can use your knowledge of magical items to rig magic items to backfire when next used. This allows you to pre-determine the target of a wand, change the spell activated from a stave, or even to short out and be inoperable for 1d4 rounds as if it had been dispelled. You can specify any parameters of the spell you like, and other modifications may be made to items if your GM allows it. The DC for this check is 15 + Caster Level of the item, and doing so requires 1d4 rounds of work. If you fail the check by 5 or more you drain 1d4 charges from the item and fail to trap it.
Once an item has been trapped it remains so until the trap is sprung. A trapped item can be disarmed like any other trap; the DC is equal to 15 + your skill ranks when you trapped it.
Special: Normally this check is made as part of the activation action, but items that provide a continuous bonus do not have an activation action. You must expend an immediate action to activate and benefit from a continuous item, you make the check at the same time as you spend the action. If you succeed it will function until the beginning of you next turn; if you exceed the DC by 5 or more it will function for 1 minute without additional attention.
Rank 1 Uses:
Forced Alignment – Your understanding of the forces of belief and faith allows you to force magic items to respond to you when they otherwise wouldn’t. If an item requires its user to have a specific alignment besides yours, you may activate the item anyway, the DC for this check equals the item’s caster level +10. A successful check allows the item to function normally for 1 round, during which time you can use charges or receive its benefits as appropriate.
Recognize Ancestry – Your understanding of the world and its ways allows you to will magic items to respond to you when they otherwise wouldn’t. If an item requires its user to be a member of a race besides yours, you may activate the item anyway, the DC for this check equals the item’s caster level +10. A successful check allows the item to function normally for 1 round, during which time you can use charges or receive its benefits as appropriate.
The Finishing Stroke – Your ability to analyze magical scripts also lets you guess at the missing stroke or word that will release their stored power. You may attempt to activate any scroll or other spell completion item that you have previously deciphered. You must have a minimum score of 10 + spell level in the relevant ability to use a scroll or similar item. If you have less than this you must fake it with another ability or you suffer a cumulative -2 penalty to your roll for each point you are short. The DC for this check is equal to 15 + the caster level of the spell stored in the object. If you fail by less than 5 the item is activated, but you suffer a 20% chance of a mishap for each point you failed the check by (see scroll mishaps in the DMG).
There’s a Trick to It - Magic items can be coaxed to work for people they weren’t intended for, if you know how to ask them. If a magic item requires a certain class feature to operate, you can fake the ability and use the item. You can also fake a class spell list for spell trigger items like wands. The DC for this check is 15 + class level required to use the ability. You can not use this ability to acquire a class feature that can only be gained by a character of higher level than yourself. It can not give you an effective class level, effective caster level, or similar ability of a character higher level than your own.
Rank 4 Uses:
Activate Blindly – You know enough random bits about magic to activate magic items, even when you have no idea what they do or how they work. As a standard action (or longer if it takes more time to activate the item) and a DC 12+CL check you can trigger any item in your possession. If you fail by 5 or more the item loses 1d4 charges but generates no other effects. If you have previously activated the item before, you gain a +3 bonus to this check.
Once it has been activated, you have a 50% chance of controlling it, plus 5% for each point that you exceeded the check by. You are allowed to make this percentile check yourself. If you succeed, you dictate how the item activates. If you do not control the item, the GM is encouraged to be entertaining with the effect. Maybe it fires off too many charges, maybe it selects a different valid target, maybe it falls dormant for a time, or maybe the effect is delayed for several rounds…
Fake It Until You Make It – Some magic items require a stronger individual to utilize properly, and you know how to make them think you’re better than you are. If a magic item requires a certain ability score to function, you can try to fake it. The DC for this check is 15 + the minimum required ability score. If you succeed on the check, the item functions as if you have the minimum required ability score. If the item requires a separate skill check to activate, both of these checks are made at the same time, so you are bound to the results of this check upon activation. You can not gain an effective ability score higher than the minimum required with this ability.
Rank 6 Uses:
Item Feedback – You can use your knowledge of magical items to rig magic items to backfire when next used. This allows you to pre-determine the target of a wand, change the spell activated from a stave, or even to short out and be inoperable for 1d4 rounds as if it had been dispelled. You can specify any parameters of the spell you like, and other modifications may be made to items if your GM allows it. The DC for this check is 15 + Caster Level of the item, and doing so requires 1d4 rounds of work. If you fail the check by 5 or more you drain 1d4 charges from the item and fail to trap it.
Once an item has been trapped it remains so until the trap is sprung. A trapped item can be disarmed like any other trap; the DC is equal to 15 + your skill ranks when you trapped it.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Now that that's out of the way, here's where I'm going with my skills (spoilered to be easily ignored by anyone who doesn't care)
So yeah, you asked and there it is. Feel free to critique or ignore it as you like, I still plan on doing a less changed mod for the boards while I do the other because the feedback is useful for both cases. My set will probably will turn into a whole new version at some point, but I don't really have more than the bare outline of it currently, and want it built around the completed version of the skill setup in any event.
Str: Jump; Melee BAB
Dex: Acrobatics; Escape Artistry; Legerdemain; Ranged BAB; Stealth
Con: Athletics; Endurance
Wis: Concentration; Geomancy; Husbandry; Perception; Survival
Int: Appraise; Arcana; Bluff; Cartography; Ciphers; Devices; Dungeoneering;
Chr: Affability; Disguise; Heal; Intimidate; Thaumaturgy
Yes, I'm planning on splitting BAB up and making people pay for it with skill points (and overhauling combat actions). And changing the way skill points are assigned. And changing class skill point amounts while making Int more like cunning (mental analog of Dex) and no longer giving bonus skill points. Yes, I understand that I am offering people the option of sucking by doing things this way, which is why I also plan on doing non-shit rules for retraining. It's not like real people don't change out their shit all the time. I want 3 styles of casters: Arcane (Int), Natural (Wis), and Social/Collective Unconscious/Divine (Chr), and I want skill points to be spendable on bonus class features as well, so there are other class tweaks as part of this eventually. So lots of Etc., most of which can stay in the background because I want this sorted before I put much more serious thought into it as I want a system that actually works with all parts of itself. But with that background out there, here are the major skill changes:
Spellcraft is broken up into Arcana (Int, Mages), Geomancy (Wis, Druids) and Thaumaturgy (Chr, Clerics). You can use it to ID other magic types, it's just not as effective. Arcana will also get some alchemy crfting, Geomancy will get UMD-race, and Thaumaturgy will get UMD-align. I'll probably also move the defensive casting and ASF into those skills as well eventually.
As for the other UMD uses, UMD-scrolls goes to Ciphers (Decipher Script/Speak Languages), UMD-abilityscore goes to Bluff, UMD-blind and UMD-trap go to Devices, and UMD-wand/class goes to Dungeoneering. Search also goes to Dungeoneering, since it's pretty weak on it's own.
I want to pull the imitation aspects out of Disguise and move them into Bluff (so there's one liar/actor skill).
The 5 "knowledgey" skills that are still in there are Arcana (ID elementals and constructs), Cartography (humanoids [including cultures], monstrous humanoids, and giants), Dungeoneering (ID aberrations, oozes, magical beasts, and dragons), Geomancy (animals, fey, and plant), and Thaumaturgy (exemplars and undead). Only 3 of these are based on int, and all of them should have active uses aside from monster IDing and DM plot gate clearing. Cartography is the tough one, but seems to be turning into an all purpose overland route plotting / vehicle piloting skill as well as gaining the knowledge (local/geography) junk. The name is bad, but /shrug.
Perception will take in spot and listen (and smell and taste if anyone cared to use them). Stealth will take in Hide and Move Silently. This is as much because it's often two rolls against two rolls, which just muddies things, as that the skills are so closely linked together.
Ciphers is getting decipher script and speak languages, and should be posted shortly in that form.
Husbandry is getting Ride and Handle Animal, which will mostly turn into being able to buff the creature you're riding anyway.
Concentration and Endurance are going to be mostly new if I pull defensive casting, and will also require a rework of other mechanics. So they're not coming for a while, but I eventually want pools of lava and acid to do action negation as well as damage (like 3rd degree burns actually do), and for that to be overcomeable with a skill check instead of just ignored because you have the hp.
And to give credit where it's due, these reassignments were influenced by the skills consolidation thread in IMHO a while back.
Dex: Acrobatics; Escape Artistry; Legerdemain; Ranged BAB; Stealth
Con: Athletics; Endurance
Wis: Concentration; Geomancy; Husbandry; Perception; Survival
Int: Appraise; Arcana; Bluff; Cartography; Ciphers; Devices; Dungeoneering;
Chr: Affability; Disguise; Heal; Intimidate; Thaumaturgy
Yes, I'm planning on splitting BAB up and making people pay for it with skill points (and overhauling combat actions). And changing the way skill points are assigned. And changing class skill point amounts while making Int more like cunning (mental analog of Dex) and no longer giving bonus skill points. Yes, I understand that I am offering people the option of sucking by doing things this way, which is why I also plan on doing non-shit rules for retraining. It's not like real people don't change out their shit all the time. I want 3 styles of casters: Arcane (Int), Natural (Wis), and Social/Collective Unconscious/Divine (Chr), and I want skill points to be spendable on bonus class features as well, so there are other class tweaks as part of this eventually. So lots of Etc., most of which can stay in the background because I want this sorted before I put much more serious thought into it as I want a system that actually works with all parts of itself. But with that background out there, here are the major skill changes:
Spellcraft is broken up into Arcana (Int, Mages), Geomancy (Wis, Druids) and Thaumaturgy (Chr, Clerics). You can use it to ID other magic types, it's just not as effective. Arcana will also get some alchemy crfting, Geomancy will get UMD-race, and Thaumaturgy will get UMD-align. I'll probably also move the defensive casting and ASF into those skills as well eventually.
As for the other UMD uses, UMD-scrolls goes to Ciphers (Decipher Script/Speak Languages), UMD-abilityscore goes to Bluff, UMD-blind and UMD-trap go to Devices, and UMD-wand/class goes to Dungeoneering. Search also goes to Dungeoneering, since it's pretty weak on it's own.
I want to pull the imitation aspects out of Disguise and move them into Bluff (so there's one liar/actor skill).
The 5 "knowledgey" skills that are still in there are Arcana (ID elementals and constructs), Cartography (humanoids [including cultures], monstrous humanoids, and giants), Dungeoneering (ID aberrations, oozes, magical beasts, and dragons), Geomancy (animals, fey, and plant), and Thaumaturgy (exemplars and undead). Only 3 of these are based on int, and all of them should have active uses aside from monster IDing and DM plot gate clearing. Cartography is the tough one, but seems to be turning into an all purpose overland route plotting / vehicle piloting skill as well as gaining the knowledge (local/geography) junk. The name is bad, but /shrug.
Perception will take in spot and listen (and smell and taste if anyone cared to use them). Stealth will take in Hide and Move Silently. This is as much because it's often two rolls against two rolls, which just muddies things, as that the skills are so closely linked together.
Ciphers is getting decipher script and speak languages, and should be posted shortly in that form.
Husbandry is getting Ride and Handle Animal, which will mostly turn into being able to buff the creature you're riding anyway.
Concentration and Endurance are going to be mostly new if I pull defensive casting, and will also require a rework of other mechanics. So they're not coming for a while, but I eventually want pools of lava and acid to do action negation as well as damage (like 3rd degree burns actually do), and for that to be overcomeable with a skill check instead of just ignored because you have the hp.
And to give credit where it's due, these reassignments were influenced by the skills consolidation thread in IMHO a while back.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Mon Apr 13, 2009 8:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Movin on to those language skills. Speak language and decipher script don't do enough on their own, synergize nicely, don't compete with each other even a little bit, and are largely made redundant by the same 1st and 3rd level spells. I've got uses for each that scale and aren't a complete waste of time, but the skills really work better as a pair. So here it is.
Ciphers (Speak Language and Decipher Script hybrid)
Ciphers (Speak Language and Decipher Script hybrid)
Special: Each point, up to 5, that you put into Ciphers allows you to speak one additional language. You can learn its written form with one week of study. You must receive approval from your GM before learning any secret or planar languges.
Rank 1 uses:
Decipher Script – You’ve seen a few dusty tomes and can make sense of unfamiliar languages in them. You can decipher writing in languages you don’t read as well as piece together messages in incomplete or archaic forms. The base DC for this check is based on the content of the message. The shortest, simplest messages only require a DC 20 check. A longer or more detailed message, like a letter to family or a troop deployment, might be a DC 25 check. A complex or intricate message, like a legal document or a complete war strategy, would be a DC 30 check. These checks can be modified up to 5 higher if the language is particularly bizarre or ancient. If the script contains a hidden or coded message, you must exceed the DC of that component to understand that portion of the message.
You do not know the DC of the check before hand. The check takes 10 full round actions per page of text, though you may check for each page separately. If you fail the check by more than 5, you learn nothing. If the check fails by less than 5, you have drawn a false conclusion from the text or otherwise misunderstood its meaning. If you succeed on the check you understand the general meaning of the document, but may be missing some specifics. You may retry a page once, regardless of your success or failure, spending an hour combing over the page for missed details. If you succeed, you have a more complete translation on hand and can glean finer details from the work. If you fail this check by less than 5 you lack potentially crucial details but do not have a mistaken impression of the work.
Rank 4 uses:
Cryptography – Words can be hidden in symbols, numbers, or even other words if you’re worried about someone else finding them. You can analyze these hidden or coded messages. The DC is determined by the strength of the code, the length of the message, and the availability of other messages written in the same code. You gain a cumulative +2 bonus to deciphering messages using a code you have already broken; if you decrypt 5 messages in the same code you do not need to check further to break any future messages that use it, and may compose messages in the code yourself.
Aside from analyzing them, you can also create codes on your own. You can create codes with a decryption DC up to 15 + your ranks in Ciphers. It takes 4 hours to create a new code, less 1/2 hour for each 1 point less you accept for the DC, to a minimum of 30 minutes. You can generate messages in any code that you have on hand or have analyzed, whether you created it or not, regardless of decryption DC.
Translate Scroll – Magic users often have ridiculous notation and idiosyncrasies in writing that make others cringe. You can read through that nonsense to find the magic stored beneath. With a DC 15 + Caster Level check you can identify the spells stored in spell completion items like scrolls.
Rank 6 uses:
Acquire Tongue – Your knowledge of languages makes it easy for you to pick new ones up. You no longer select new languages after you gain 6 ranks in this skill. Instead, anytime you are exposed to a language you do not speak, you get to check to see if you learn it. The DC for this check is at least 30, languages that use a very different structure or sounds may have a higher DC. For each day that you are exposed to this language continually you gain a new check with a +2 cumulative bonus.
Understanding their tongue does not give you the ability to write their language. Learning the written form of a language takes one week or more, depending on whether they use a similar alphabet, pictograms, etc. The exact time is determined by the GM, but anything over 1 month should be a rare and extraordinary circumstance.
Rank 8 Uses:
Rosetta Stone – You know your way around a text, even when it’s written in a dead language. You never have to make a check to read ancient, obscure, forgotten, or even alien or planar languages. You need to spend some time familiarizing yourself with the language and writing structure, however; this time may be anywhere between 5 minutes and 8 hours depending on the complexity of the language and topic and is determined by the GM. Once this time has been spent, you can freely read the text as quickly as you read anything else. Further, you actually understand the literal complete text, not just the general idea. Sadly, this does not free you from the limitations inherent in an “inadequate concept background” or “poorly translating idiom”. So while you could translate a book about quantum mechanics, this ability gives you no greater insight into its mechanics than the words on the pages. This ability only translates actual languages, and has no ability to break underlying codes or secret messages or pull messages from intentional gibberish.
Rank 10 Uses:
If Books Could Kill – You’re familiarity with writing and symbols has made you familiar with their magical variants. Spells such as Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, and the various Symbols can be triggered during reading, and you are prepared for them. If you are about to trigger a magical effect by reading it, you are entitled to a Ciphers check (DC 15 + Caster Level) to avoid triggering it entirely. If you avoid triggering it, you may use your Ciphers skill to disable it as if it were a magical trap (DC 15+ Caster Level).
You are also well versed in placing such traps, if they are a part of your class abilities. You may use your Ciphers ranks in place of your caster level when determining how difficult it is for others to notice and avoid your magical scribbling, but this does not increase any other aspects of the spell.
Rank 1 uses:
Decipher Script – You’ve seen a few dusty tomes and can make sense of unfamiliar languages in them. You can decipher writing in languages you don’t read as well as piece together messages in incomplete or archaic forms. The base DC for this check is based on the content of the message. The shortest, simplest messages only require a DC 20 check. A longer or more detailed message, like a letter to family or a troop deployment, might be a DC 25 check. A complex or intricate message, like a legal document or a complete war strategy, would be a DC 30 check. These checks can be modified up to 5 higher if the language is particularly bizarre or ancient. If the script contains a hidden or coded message, you must exceed the DC of that component to understand that portion of the message.
You do not know the DC of the check before hand. The check takes 10 full round actions per page of text, though you may check for each page separately. If you fail the check by more than 5, you learn nothing. If the check fails by less than 5, you have drawn a false conclusion from the text or otherwise misunderstood its meaning. If you succeed on the check you understand the general meaning of the document, but may be missing some specifics. You may retry a page once, regardless of your success or failure, spending an hour combing over the page for missed details. If you succeed, you have a more complete translation on hand and can glean finer details from the work. If you fail this check by less than 5 you lack potentially crucial details but do not have a mistaken impression of the work.
Rank 4 uses:
Cryptography – Words can be hidden in symbols, numbers, or even other words if you’re worried about someone else finding them. You can analyze these hidden or coded messages. The DC is determined by the strength of the code, the length of the message, and the availability of other messages written in the same code. You gain a cumulative +2 bonus to deciphering messages using a code you have already broken; if you decrypt 5 messages in the same code you do not need to check further to break any future messages that use it, and may compose messages in the code yourself.
Aside from analyzing them, you can also create codes on your own. You can create codes with a decryption DC up to 15 + your ranks in Ciphers. It takes 4 hours to create a new code, less 1/2 hour for each 1 point less you accept for the DC, to a minimum of 30 minutes. You can generate messages in any code that you have on hand or have analyzed, whether you created it or not, regardless of decryption DC.
Translate Scroll – Magic users often have ridiculous notation and idiosyncrasies in writing that make others cringe. You can read through that nonsense to find the magic stored beneath. With a DC 15 + Caster Level check you can identify the spells stored in spell completion items like scrolls.
Rank 6 uses:
Acquire Tongue – Your knowledge of languages makes it easy for you to pick new ones up. You no longer select new languages after you gain 6 ranks in this skill. Instead, anytime you are exposed to a language you do not speak, you get to check to see if you learn it. The DC for this check is at least 30, languages that use a very different structure or sounds may have a higher DC. For each day that you are exposed to this language continually you gain a new check with a +2 cumulative bonus.
Understanding their tongue does not give you the ability to write their language. Learning the written form of a language takes one week or more, depending on whether they use a similar alphabet, pictograms, etc. The exact time is determined by the GM, but anything over 1 month should be a rare and extraordinary circumstance.
Rank 8 Uses:
Rosetta Stone – You know your way around a text, even when it’s written in a dead language. You never have to make a check to read ancient, obscure, forgotten, or even alien or planar languages. You need to spend some time familiarizing yourself with the language and writing structure, however; this time may be anywhere between 5 minutes and 8 hours depending on the complexity of the language and topic and is determined by the GM. Once this time has been spent, you can freely read the text as quickly as you read anything else. Further, you actually understand the literal complete text, not just the general idea. Sadly, this does not free you from the limitations inherent in an “inadequate concept background” or “poorly translating idiom”. So while you could translate a book about quantum mechanics, this ability gives you no greater insight into its mechanics than the words on the pages. This ability only translates actual languages, and has no ability to break underlying codes or secret messages or pull messages from intentional gibberish.
Rank 10 Uses:
If Books Could Kill – You’re familiarity with writing and symbols has made you familiar with their magical variants. Spells such as Explosive Runes, Sepia Snake Sigil, and the various Symbols can be triggered during reading, and you are prepared for them. If you are about to trigger a magical effect by reading it, you are entitled to a Ciphers check (DC 15 + Caster Level) to avoid triggering it entirely. If you avoid triggering it, you may use your Ciphers skill to disable it as if it were a magical trap (DC 15+ Caster Level).
You are also well versed in placing such traps, if they are a part of your class abilities. You may use your Ciphers ranks in place of your caster level when determining how difficult it is for others to notice and avoid your magical scribbling, but this does not increase any other aspects of the spell.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Tue Apr 21, 2009 8:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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Quantumboost
- Knight-Baron
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As it stands, the first 4-rank ability is better titled "Cryptanalysis" (since it doesn't enable you to write in your own code). It would probably be helpful for both the ability and world-consistency if the ability included creating a code; perhaps making the DC equal to (Ciphers bonus + 10 or 11)?
Edit: For clarification, by "world consistency" I'm referring to the question "how did these codes get there in the first place?"
Edit: For clarification, by "world consistency" I'm referring to the question "how did these codes get there in the first place?"
Last edited by Quantumboost on Tue Apr 21, 2009 6:59 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TarkisFlux
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I gotcha Quantumboost. I had originally wanted to put in a similar code creating ability, but left it out because I didn't want to limit people to only codes that they could make. I'll edit it in later today though, hopefully figure the rest out in the meantime.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Edited somethin in for that.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Question: In Frank's discussions, he mentions the use of Disable Device to bypass active effects, like an already moving avalanche (DC 35) or even a curse or a wall of force. Where the hell in the RaW is this mentioned?
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
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TarkisFlux
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I know there's stuff along those lines in the Book of Gears stuff (section A.4.2 in the Tome pdf), and I'm pretty sure it comes from the very poor way in which "trap" is defined in the game. Since you can literally make a "trap" out of anything, and DD lets you disable those things, you can pretty much use it to get around the same effects in different places. Whether any of it flies in your particular game is left as an exercise for the reader.
Edit: I'm actually not sure where Frank and K pulled the "disable an activated trap" (i.e the incoming avalanche). I don't buy the argument that you can stop a trap after it's effects have already been generated, having seen nothing that suggests that interpretation in the 3.x rules and not particularly liking its implications anyway. As far as I'm concerned, you can stop the rube-goldberg that starts the avalanche, even after it's been triggered if there's a time delay or it needs to build up for a while before the final effect is generated, but once snow is moving down a mountain you need a damn wall, not more disabling. I spelled out the "Disable Active Spells" bit of my rewritten Devices skill to incorporate disabling of magic that I'm pretty comfortable with, but it'll just be unnecessary words for people who prefer the other ruling.
If anyone knows where the complete justification comes from it'd be nice to see it.
Edit: I'm actually not sure where Frank and K pulled the "disable an activated trap" (i.e the incoming avalanche). I don't buy the argument that you can stop a trap after it's effects have already been generated, having seen nothing that suggests that interpretation in the 3.x rules and not particularly liking its implications anyway. As far as I'm concerned, you can stop the rube-goldberg that starts the avalanche, even after it's been triggered if there's a time delay or it needs to build up for a while before the final effect is generated, but once snow is moving down a mountain you need a damn wall, not more disabling. I spelled out the "Disable Active Spells" bit of my rewritten Devices skill to incorporate disabling of magic that I'm pretty comfortable with, but it'll just be unnecessary words for people who prefer the other ruling.
If anyone knows where the complete justification comes from it'd be nice to see it.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Fri Apr 24, 2009 12:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Time for Escape Artist. I'm kinda unhappy with the rank 14 minor teleport ability, and I'm not even sure it's appropriate in this or any skill despite its Houdini similarities. Thoughts appreciated.
Escape Artist
Escape Artist
Untrained uses:
Slip Grapple – Instead of trying to overpower a grappler, you can just try to wriggle free. You also use this skill to escape entangling effects of all kinds. The places where you can use this skill in place of a grapple check are covered in the Combat section. Spells or conditions that allow or require use of this skill will note it in their descriptions.
Rank 1 uses:
Pass Tight Space – Any space that you can fit both your head and shoulders into is a space that anyone can crawl or wiggle through. You can actually move through spaces where your head fits, and your shoulders don’t. If you succeed at a DC 20 Escape Artistry check, you may move up to half of your base speed through these cramped quarters as a full round action. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, you may move up to your base speed as a full-round action. If you exceed the DC by 10 or more you may move your base speed as a move action, but you may not charge or run through the space. Particularly long passages may require multiple checks.
Rank 4 uses:
Slip Bindings – Ropes and manacles can’t keep you bound. With an Escape Artistry check and 10 full round actions you can escape manacles (DC 25), masterwork manacles (DC 30), and rope bindings (DC set by binder, see the Survival skill). If you exceed the DC by 5, you escape in half the required time. If you exceed the DC by 10 you escape in only 1 round.
Rank 8 uses:
Escape Magic’s Grasp - Magic walls aren’t as perfect as they appear, if you know how to time it you can slip right through them. As a swift action, you can pass through any temporary wall generated by magic, suffering none of the effects that would normally come with passing through the wall. You take this swift action when you pass through the wall, and as such it may occur during another move action. You must succeed on an Escape Artistry check, DC 15 + Caster Level, when you reach the wall or you suffer full effects for passing through it. If the wall does not normally allow passage, you fail to cross it if you do not pass your check. You have no special ability to pass through permanent walls generated by magic.
Rank 10 uses:
Pass Miniscule Opening – Some spaces, like prison bars, are designed to be open while stopping people from moving through them; they don’t stop you anymore. As a full round action, you can pass through openings up to one-quarter as thick as your body (approx 2” for most medium creatures) at a rate of 1 foot per round. You must also make a DC 30 Escape Artistry check for each round that you wish to move in such a way, failure indicates that you make no progress for the round.
Creatures larger than medium double the numbers above for each category larger they are. Creatures smaller than medium halve the numbers above for each category smaller they are.
Rank 14 uses:
Slip Between Spaces - You can slip between spaces as well, ignoring the interposing obstacles. As a move action, you may make a DC 35 Escape Artistry check. If it is successful, you choose a space within your base movement rate to move to, regardless of interposing obstacles. If that space is completely filled, you are shunted to the nearest open space, suffering 1d6 damage for every 5’ that you must move to reach it. If your check fails by 5 or less, you land near your target; treat yourself as a short range grenade that missed and generate a new destination square. If you fail by more than 5 you do not move from your starting space. You must be able to move freely to use this ability, and can not use it while held, restrained, or even while attempting to pass a tight space.
Slip Grapple – Instead of trying to overpower a grappler, you can just try to wriggle free. You also use this skill to escape entangling effects of all kinds. The places where you can use this skill in place of a grapple check are covered in the Combat section. Spells or conditions that allow or require use of this skill will note it in their descriptions.
Rank 1 uses:
Pass Tight Space – Any space that you can fit both your head and shoulders into is a space that anyone can crawl or wiggle through. You can actually move through spaces where your head fits, and your shoulders don’t. If you succeed at a DC 20 Escape Artistry check, you may move up to half of your base speed through these cramped quarters as a full round action. If you exceed the DC by 5 or more, you may move up to your base speed as a full-round action. If you exceed the DC by 10 or more you may move your base speed as a move action, but you may not charge or run through the space. Particularly long passages may require multiple checks.
Rank 4 uses:
Slip Bindings – Ropes and manacles can’t keep you bound. With an Escape Artistry check and 10 full round actions you can escape manacles (DC 25), masterwork manacles (DC 30), and rope bindings (DC set by binder, see the Survival skill). If you exceed the DC by 5, you escape in half the required time. If you exceed the DC by 10 you escape in only 1 round.
Rank 8 uses:
Escape Magic’s Grasp - Magic walls aren’t as perfect as they appear, if you know how to time it you can slip right through them. As a swift action, you can pass through any temporary wall generated by magic, suffering none of the effects that would normally come with passing through the wall. You take this swift action when you pass through the wall, and as such it may occur during another move action. You must succeed on an Escape Artistry check, DC 15 + Caster Level, when you reach the wall or you suffer full effects for passing through it. If the wall does not normally allow passage, you fail to cross it if you do not pass your check. You have no special ability to pass through permanent walls generated by magic.
Rank 10 uses:
Pass Miniscule Opening – Some spaces, like prison bars, are designed to be open while stopping people from moving through them; they don’t stop you anymore. As a full round action, you can pass through openings up to one-quarter as thick as your body (approx 2” for most medium creatures) at a rate of 1 foot per round. You must also make a DC 30 Escape Artistry check for each round that you wish to move in such a way, failure indicates that you make no progress for the round.
Creatures larger than medium double the numbers above for each category larger they are. Creatures smaller than medium halve the numbers above for each category smaller they are.
Rank 14 uses:
Slip Between Spaces - You can slip between spaces as well, ignoring the interposing obstacles. As a move action, you may make a DC 35 Escape Artistry check. If it is successful, you choose a space within your base movement rate to move to, regardless of interposing obstacles. If that space is completely filled, you are shunted to the nearest open space, suffering 1d6 damage for every 5’ that you must move to reach it. If your check fails by 5 or less, you land near your target; treat yourself as a short range grenade that missed and generate a new destination square. If you fail by more than 5 you do not move from your starting space. You must be able to move freely to use this ability, and can not use it while held, restrained, or even while attempting to pass a tight space.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
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TarkisFlux
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Knowledge Skills...
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I’m not going to do the same thing for knowledge skills that I’m doing for the rest of the skills. Like I alluded to in response to Crissa a bit ago, and Frank and others have babbled about in various places, knowing something is not an ability. It is something that can influence what you do with your other abilities, but you don’t actually do anything with it on its own. They can be useful in their way, but you should not be learning how to build a slightly better house with the same points you spend being able to disarm doomsday machines.
The knowledge skills are broken up into a couple of different uses, knowing how to do something and recognizing creatures. The first part is extremely problematic. Knowing how to design a building can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing which noble at court is the king’s second son can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing how to read a map, or about the culture of the region your entering suffers the same problems. These are all useful things to know, but you shouldn’t get better at knowing things like this just because you leveled up. Knowledge should really just be given out because of your background, because you read it in a book, because someone told you, because you have an active skill that deals with it, or some other reason along those lines. Characters may even need to spend time, effort, or money learning things of course; it may even lead to interesting adventures, encounters, locations, and interactions. What they should never do is be limited on what they do and don’t know because of their level and because they have skill points in places that give them abilities. These sorts of knowledge skills need to be removed from the game. Any knowledge that is missing because of it can be handled with other skills, investigation, or even GM “your character would know this” handout if it came to it.
Recognizing and knowing how to kill the monster in front of you is a trickier problem. On the one hand, you can seriously learn how to kill a Rakshasa by asking a sage, a veteran adventurer, or reading it in a book. And that’s fine, you should not have to pay for this knowledge with skill points because it is not something you can use outside of a very specific situation. On the other hand, some characters will want/need to have a near encyclopedic knowledge of beasts and monsters, devoting their off time to learning more about them. It isn’t really a specific information request and requires a lot more time and investment than a regular inquiry. It’s also useful in enough varied situations as to be worth a damn, if only barely. The ability to ID conceivably anything you run across is going to need an investment by the character, and would probably require a regular person to sacrifice other skills. So we’ll let them spend skill points on the ability to ID a huge swath of creatures out there; it’s arguably level appropriate even. Iaimeki’s creature ID fix in the Tome makes the knowledge skills do this well and scale nicely, and that’s about as good as we’re going to get for the bits that you have to roll. We could add in the ability to SA or crit immune creatures with a good enough knowledge skill, but past that a “knowing how to kill monsters” skill pretty much ends. Sadly, the breakdowns of monster groupings don’t spread this around nicely, but here’s an example:
Append the following to Knowledge (any):
If you succeed on your check to identify a creature by 5 or more, and you have at least its CR ranks in the relevant knowledge skill, you also ‘remember’ or ‘learn’ the creature’s weakpoints. You may deal precision damage and critical hits to the creature, even if they are normally immune to these things.
With standard monster/knowledge groupings, Clerics get to crit undead, druids get to crit plants, and wizards get to crit constructs. The monster groupings should probably be tweaked, ultimately paring down the number of knowledge skill available to 5ish, but I’m going to leave that as an exercise for the setting designer.
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I’m not going to do the same thing for knowledge skills that I’m doing for the rest of the skills. Like I alluded to in response to Crissa a bit ago, and Frank and others have babbled about in various places, knowing something is not an ability. It is something that can influence what you do with your other abilities, but you don’t actually do anything with it on its own. They can be useful in their way, but you should not be learning how to build a slightly better house with the same points you spend being able to disarm doomsday machines.
The knowledge skills are broken up into a couple of different uses, knowing how to do something and recognizing creatures. The first part is extremely problematic. Knowing how to design a building can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing which noble at court is the king’s second son can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing how to read a map, or about the culture of the region your entering suffers the same problems. These are all useful things to know, but you shouldn’t get better at knowing things like this just because you leveled up. Knowledge should really just be given out because of your background, because you read it in a book, because someone told you, because you have an active skill that deals with it, or some other reason along those lines. Characters may even need to spend time, effort, or money learning things of course; it may even lead to interesting adventures, encounters, locations, and interactions. What they should never do is be limited on what they do and don’t know because of their level and because they have skill points in places that give them abilities. These sorts of knowledge skills need to be removed from the game. Any knowledge that is missing because of it can be handled with other skills, investigation, or even GM “your character would know this” handout if it came to it.
Recognizing and knowing how to kill the monster in front of you is a trickier problem. On the one hand, you can seriously learn how to kill a Rakshasa by asking a sage, a veteran adventurer, or reading it in a book. And that’s fine, you should not have to pay for this knowledge with skill points because it is not something you can use outside of a very specific situation. On the other hand, some characters will want/need to have a near encyclopedic knowledge of beasts and monsters, devoting their off time to learning more about them. It isn’t really a specific information request and requires a lot more time and investment than a regular inquiry. It’s also useful in enough varied situations as to be worth a damn, if only barely. The ability to ID conceivably anything you run across is going to need an investment by the character, and would probably require a regular person to sacrifice other skills. So we’ll let them spend skill points on the ability to ID a huge swath of creatures out there; it’s arguably level appropriate even. Iaimeki’s creature ID fix in the Tome makes the knowledge skills do this well and scale nicely, and that’s about as good as we’re going to get for the bits that you have to roll. We could add in the ability to SA or crit immune creatures with a good enough knowledge skill, but past that a “knowing how to kill monsters” skill pretty much ends. Sadly, the breakdowns of monster groupings don’t spread this around nicely, but here’s an example:
Append the following to Knowledge (any):
If you succeed on your check to identify a creature by 5 or more, and you have at least its CR ranks in the relevant knowledge skill, you also ‘remember’ or ‘learn’ the creature’s weakpoints. You may deal precision damage and critical hits to the creature, even if they are normally immune to these things.
With standard monster/knowledge groupings, Clerics get to crit undead, druids get to crit plants, and wizards get to crit constructs. The monster groupings should probably be tweaked, ultimately paring down the number of knowledge skill available to 5ish, but I’m going to leave that as an exercise for the setting designer.
Last edited by TarkisFlux on Mon Apr 27, 2009 12:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
The wiki you should be linking to when you need a wiki link - http://www.dnd-wiki.org
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Fectin: "Ant, what is best in life?"
Ant: "Ethically, a task well-completed for the good of the colony. Experientially, endorphins."
Do you happen to have a link to the location of these discussions? This seems remarkably similar to the social skill discussion in the role protection thread right now and I come to a different conclusion than you do (I feel that knowing things can be a level appropriate ability if you make working rule systems for knowledge and give these systems sufficient prominence in your game world. That said, it is probably true that in D&D, where the emphasis is killing shit dead, knowledge cannot be a level appropriate ability. In a horror survival game, however, knowing what's what can easily level and seems as much of a boon to your survivability and ability to interact with the story as any number of combat abilities.) If this comment is an unnecessary de-rail of your thread, I apologize and will delete it upon prompting.TarkisFlux wrote:Knowledge Skills...
I’ve been thinking about this for a while, and I’m not going to do the same thing for knowledge skills that I’m doing for the rest of the skills. Like I alluded to in response to Crissa a bit ago, and Frank and others have babbled about in various places, knowing something is not an ability. It is something that can influence what you do with your other abilities, but you don’t actually do anything with it on its own. They can be useful in their way, but you should not be learning how to build a slightly better house with the same points you spend being able to disarm doomsday machines.
The knowledge skills are broken up into a couple of different uses, knowing how to do something and recognizing creatures. The first part is extremely problematic. Knowing how to design a building can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing which noble at court is the king’s second son can not be made into a scaling, level appropriate ability. Knowing how to read a map, or about the culture of the region your entering suffers the same problems. These are all useful things to know, but you shouldn’t get better at knowing things like this just because you leveled up. Knowledge should really just be given out because of your background, because you read it in a book, because someone told you, because you have an active skill that deals with it, or some other reason along those lines. Characters may even need to spend time, effort, or money learning things of course; it may even lead to interesting adventures, encounters, locations, and interactions. What they should never do is be limited on what they do and don’t know because of their level and because they have skill points in places that give them abilities. These sorts of knowledge skills need to be removed from the game. Any knowledge that is missing because of it can be handled with other skills, investigation, or even GM “your character would know this” handout if it came to it.
Sighs and leers and crocodile tears.