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Why can't 3.x skill monkeys have nice skills?
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:59 pm    Post subject: Why can't 3.x skill monkeys have nice skills? Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, pass two is still underway, but I don't think I'll be putting the updates in bbcode for posting here. Instead I'm just going to wiki the whole thing for greater legibility and access and whatnot. Here's a direct link for anyone interested:

http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Tome_of_Prowess_%283.5e_Sourcebook%29

Original post preserved below.




Thread title is actually a serious question. 3.x seems to want both magic users and skill monkeys, and then the system doesn't support skills becoming more powerful in the same way that spells become more powerful. They're not fighters, so there's no inherent bias against them, they just get linearly advancing skills to attempt to compete with non-linearly advancing spells and powers.

Quick aside: I am not interested in addressing the reverse phrasing of this issue, that spells scale too quickly and should be brought into line. There are some problem spells, but overall spells scale to challenges just fine. Further, I am just not interested in reducing spell power overall. This broadly means I'm looking at making skills less mundane as well as adjusting the scaling of the ones that sorta work already. If you don't think this is an attractive goal and you only have your preference to base that off of, kindly don't waste either of our time with complaints or derails.

I guess the fundamental complaint here is that skill growth doesn't open up any new options. It might make some old options more reliable, but skills as written don't do anything more at level 8 or 20 than they do at level 1. And that's lame. The problem probably comes from concern over when people get big enough bonuses to attempt or reasonably succeed at things. I don't really care if a 10th level rogue can balance on water for a while, but setting the DC low enough for that to happen at all reliably in the current system is going to make it possible for a 1st level rogue to do it as well, and I do care about that.

So why can't we add new uses to skills, and stick a rank minimum on them to limit their attempts to levels where we want those things happening? Take all of the ridiculously high DC epic skills uses, reduce the DC lots, and then not let people attempt the checks until they have a minimum rank in the skill. Tome feats did something along those lines and went a good way towards giving skills additional utility, but didn't address the issue of skills sucking on their own. The feats need to remain a solid step up in power, but the skills themselves shouldn't be ass.

Here's an example of what I'm getting at with the Acrobatics skill (balance & tumble joined skill):
[Edit] - Moved below with rest of completedish skills

It's probably not fleshed out enough, but it's certainly plenty to get the idea across. Skills get new uses as people invest ranks in them, and can get additional, more-powerful options from the skill if they also want to spend feats on them. The epic uses (that largely mimic mid level spells anyway) get brought down into regular 1-20 land with "you must be this tall to ride" signs stuck on them that keeps access to a particular level range. And if it strains your mind too much to think that a use just pops up at a certain rank, you can let people attempt it a rank early at -5 or something.

Any glaring problems with this that I'm overlooking? Or any solid non-preference reasons why this is a terrible idea?


[Edit]Original post preserved above for fun. Per Sinister's request, all skills will be reprinted in this post, at least until I hit max post length :-/

Acrobatics
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Animal Handling
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Appraise:
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Athletics
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Bluff:
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Ciphers (Speak Language and Decipher Script hybrid)
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Devices (short for disable device and open lock)
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Diplomacy
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Disguise
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Escape Artist
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Healing
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Intimidation:
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Jump
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Legerdemain
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Perception
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Search
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Sense Motive
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Survival
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Use Magic Device
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Last edited by TarkisFlux on Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:06 am; edited 16 times in total
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angelfromanotherpin
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like it. I mean, I really like it.

I was toying with a similar sort of idea, but couldn't get it to gel.
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Elennsar
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm asking out of curiosity, not to provoke an arguement, and anyone who tries to turn it into one has it on their fool head.

Is there any nonpreference reason why this is a good idea (as distinct from making it so that mages don't break the game by toning them down)?

If there is, huzzah. Sincere wishes for good luck.

If not, enjoy (regardless).

Note: Survival, for instance...what can it do (besides tracking) that we don't have a spell that does the same thing?

What does it cover that leaves room for both create food/water/shelter and "DC X: You find enough food, water and shelter for an adventuring party, and track the giant back to his cave at the same time."?
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Maxus
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Interesting...

I'm in the process of re-writing the Dragonmech Steamborg.

Well, actually, I say process. I've got it written, and I'm trying to come up with feats and stuff for them.

The next thing, I guess, would be the re-write of the Coglayer, but in order to do that, I'd have to rewrite every skill a Coglayer actually uses--and those skill form the core differences between Dragonmech and normal d20.

Still, I like the idea you put forth, and I'll definitely be jotting down notes on this.
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Talisman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Eenteresting...sort of like bards and Perform, but for all skills and everybody (or at least, most skills and most people).

I'm up for it as long as the overtly supernatural stuff is reserved for higher levels, where everyone has to be overtly supernatural. Like Tarkis, I don't mind a 15tj-level rogue balancing on water, but I don't want a 3rd-level rogue doing the same.

Elennsar wrote:
Is there any nonpreference reason why this is a good idea (as distinct from making it so that mages don't break the game by toning them down)?


As TarkisFlux noted, mages (aside from some problem spells) don't actually break the game...mage spells are scaled appropriately to the challenges they're expected to face. Skills are not, yet skillmonkeys and spellcasters of equal level are expected to be of roughly equal power.

Solution: Expand the options/powers of skills, with a rank cap to ensure the crazy stuff doesn't happen too soon.

Sort of like epic skills, only...good.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yay support. Helps me want to do the rest of them if I'm not the only one who thinks there's potential here.

Talisman: I guess so, though I sorta forgot the Bard worked like that. Their stuff is also daily limited, and I specifically don't want to do that with skill stuff if I can avoid it, daily uses being a caster thing.

Elennsar: I've tried to answer you on that before in the context of IGTNs jump skill, but I'll take another crack at it. It's in the spoiler.

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Elennsar wrote:
Survival, for instance...what can it do (besides tracking) that we don't have a spell that does the same thing?

What does it cover that leaves room for both create food/water/shelter and "DC X: You find enough food, water and shelter for an adventuring party, and track the giant back to his cave at the same time."?


Well, with the above I pretty much went over the epic skill uses, found spells that gave the same movement ability, then rolled a skill driven variant into the base skill with a minimum ranks that placed it 2 or more levels after the casters were doing it.

The epic uses of survival would come down to mortal land, and then I'd maybe steal a couple of spell effects and rework them. Pass without trace is a spell that could be semi-stolen and worked into the skill as some form of trail masking variant making it harder to track your group. You could also do a Freedom based effect that worked with plant / naturalish spells, like entangle or web. Since this is all out of my ass, I don't know if those are good or workable ideas right now, but that's where I'd start.
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 2:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Not that the idea isn't interesting, but, unless you're not gonna help the good skills in any way, the 3.x rogue doesn't need any help (despite its usefulness being largely an accident, inherited by some other classes - BTW, I think there was a bias there, since the skill classes that didn't inherit the rogue SA+UMD accident do suck). Also, spellcasters good at skill use get upgraded as well. OTOH, if you merely bring the crap skills to the level of the good, an argument for balance being retained might be made.
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Talisman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd say the top skills, like UMD and Tumble, don't need any help since they auto-scale.

If other skills were brought up to that level of usefullness, I'd be happy.

IMO, a skill's uses should be slightly less powerful than a spell castable by an equal-level caster (8 ranks -> 3rd-level spell), since skills are at-will and highest-level spells are sharply limited. Say, 2 spell levels lower sounds about right.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bigode - Have any skills in mind specifically to stay away from? The only skills I can think of that don't really need the help are the opposed skills (hide, bluff), the "not really skills" skills (perform for non-bards, craft, profession), or they've already been tweaked lots in other places (tome diplomacy). Even the knowledges sorta scale if you only use them to ID monsters; they just suffer from general lack of utility.

I'm also drawing a blank on which casters are also good at skills, by which I mean have interesting class skills and not just bonus skill points from high INTs. Which ones would be helped significantly by this (just thought Druid has potential, any others)? Cross class rank maxes are still going to keep most of from benefiting significantly until well past the point that I care.

Talisman: UMD actually doesn't scale unless your using scrolls, otherwise it's pretty binary past mid levels. The scroll use scales appropriately though, because a singly point of bonus to UMD corresponds to a single point of caster level which has already been said to scale just fine. I think the non-scaling/scaling bit of the skill is an issue on it's own, but it's not really relevant to this thread because it is a good skill already. Potentially too good even, since you can't get by as a rogue without it, but again, a seperate issue. I was fairly intrigued by the breakup that someone suggested in the IMHO skill consolidation thread, using UMD bits to make other skills suck less. Any one else have thoughts on that?

Back on topic... As to your 2 spell levels lower point, I don't think you're distinguishing between "possible" and "reliable". Possible is just where you're going to set the minimum ranks, reliable is where you're going to set the base DC and what action cost you're going to give it and if you're going to give it any sort of wind down mechanic (like counts as running or whatever). I agree that it shouldn't be reliable until around that point, by which I mean you can get it off for a round or 5 at a time with only a little luck. I think that the attempt should be allowed only 1 spell level after though (in most cases) because I don't want the non-caster options staying too far behind the casters. It doesn't have to be the most reliable option in the world, but it needs to be an option or it quickly loses relevance.
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ZER0
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I agree with Talisman in that a skill should provide a new ability that functions as a spell might 2 spell levels lower. In fact, I highly agree with this in general, and I think balancing the skills against appropriate spells may be a very good idea. The problem I'm finding is that it may simply be too much to ask for there to be seven levels of improvement for each skill (getting skills equivalent to 8th level spells at level 19 is right out, I think, so that would be 1-7 going up to level 17; basic skills are easily equal to or more than 0-level spells).

I can't think of a decent solution right off the top of my head, but I'd like to see this go somewhere.
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Talisman
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TarkisFlux wrote:
Even the knowledges sorta scale if you only use them to ID monsters; they just suffer from general lack of utility.


My players find plenty of utility for the Knowledge skills.

Quote:
I'm also drawing a blank on which casters are also good at skills, by which I mean have interesting class skills and not just bonus skill points from high INTs.


Bards come to mind....6 SPs/level and a fairly decent class skill list. Probably not a game breaker, though.

Quote:
Back on topic... As to your 2 spell levels lower point, I don't think you're distinguishing between "possible" and "reliable". Possible is just where you're going to set the minimum ranks, reliable is where you're going to set the base DC and what action cost you're going to give it and if you're going to give it any sort of wind down mechanic (like counts as running or whatever). I agree that it shouldn't be reliable until around that point, by which I mean you can get it off for a round or 5 at a time with only a little luck. I think that the attempt should be allowed only 1 spell level after though (in most cases) because I don't want the non-caster options staying too far behind the casters. It doesn't have to be the most reliable option in the world, but it needs to be an option or it quickly loses relevance.


Let me use a specific example. Let's assume you can use Balance to walk on water (assuming, for the moment, that anyone ever took water walk when fly is available). Water walk is a 3rd-level spell, so I wouldn't want anyone trying to Balance on water any earlier than 5th level. Furthermore, a 5th-level caster probably has a 19-21 spellcasting ability score (18 + 1 + 2 item?), which equates to a whopping 2 3rd-level spells before specialization/domains. At best, a 5th-level cast can cast water walk three times per day. Our hypothetical water-balance can try to Balance all day, as long as he doesn't care about getting wet or eaten by crocodiles or something.

Magic is supposed to be quick and powerful, but limited. Skills are hard-earned, but can be used forever. I could see the arguement for 1 level lower, but I wouldn't go higher than that except in very special cases.

Also, skill DCs are may be a joke, depending on how available skill-boosting items are. If the skill DC is absurdly high for the assumed level, it means no one but the most maxed-out/magically augmented will be able to perform the stunt; if the skill DC is more human-scale, it means that ridiculously maxed-out/magically augmented skill users will not even have to care about the DC.

If I had to pick one I'd go with the latter: assume someone with a maxed-out skill and a decent ability bonus had, say, a 60%-70% chance of successfully using the skill at the level when they gain the new ability. Say, a 5th-level power (8 ranks) would have a DC around 20...easy if you're cheesed-out, doable if you're merely human.
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Calibron
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I like this idea, though I do have two things to say about the details. "Competent Balancer" you can do this with 5 ranks in Balance under the normal rules, and something just bothers me about the Skip on Air thing, it just seems to too grossly violate terrain in its entirety; no legitimate mechanical complaints, it just really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No source material, as far as I know has people literally balancing on the air, lily pads, treetops, water, even clouds and smoke or even starlight, but not thin air.

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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Caliborn wrote:
I like this idea, though I do have two things to say about the details. "Competent Balancer" you can do this with 5 ranks in Balance under the normal rules, and something just bothers me about the Skip on Air thing, it just seems to too grossly violate terrain in its entirety; no legitimate mechanical complaints, it just really leaves a bad taste in my mouth. No source material, as far as I know has people literally balancing on the air, lily pads, treetops, water, even clouds and smoke or even starlight, but not thin air.


Run the wind: You can run. On the wind. Don't fall down now, y'hear?


Some ideas:

o Appraise
-ID quality and/or Power level (Turnip, Gold, Soul Economy value) of an item
-You can make items mastercraft, since you know the difference and what it means
-You can make items magical, or stop them from being magical
-You can turn an item of one power level, into an item of a different power level. You need items of both power levels in order to do this.

This is where Sun Plate and Bone Walls sometimes come from. Someone grabbed some normal metal armour, and rubbed Pure Hope with a polishing cloth and wire buffing brush on the armour until it sprouted wings and turned to gold.

o Balance
-done here
o Bluff
-You're an ethnic minority, you can attend KKK rallies
-You cause Confusion or Daze effects with lies that turn listeners on their heads
o Climb
-Brachiation
-Spiderclimb
-Combat Climbing
[not in that order]
o Concentration
-Do things that the old Auto-Hypnosis skill does; like ignore damage or pain effects
-Pass a failed will save for one round; but you'll have to keep Concentrating or the fact that your soul is gone will catch up with you.
-combat other psychological effects (fear, stunn, daze)
o Craft
-you need this to make magic items as a RoW fighter, dunno what else to add to it
o Decipher Script
-read scrolls
-an alternate UMD, but only for scrolls; wizards might actually max this
o Diplomacy
-This skill needs to have its chart changed back to what the chart originally was; a Charisma check chart, not a skill-check chart.
o Disable Device
-has quite a few uses from what I recall
o Disguise
-hide alignment?
-hide thoughts?
-hind your mind?
-create alter self effects?
o Escape Artist
-grapple people better, since you know how they can escape a grapple? I know it applies to real grappling martial arts, they teach 'control' and 'escape' as much as they do on 'locks'
-freedom of movement?
o Forgery
-temporarily change one item into a more powerful or weaker item that looks very similar. So, you can change a crappy watch into a rolex oyster and sell it when you're in a Japanese POW camp, King Rat style; or you can disguise the artifact that the party found into something innocous. Like a wooden magical McGuffin, instead of a glowing Jade and Gold one.
*
o Gather Information
o Handle Animal
-talk with aminales
-Diplomacy with animales
-Buff animales; Knights mounts get stuff like Nature's Fang or Barkskin, or Bull's Str
o Heal
-stop bleeding
-rapid recovery
-re-attach body parts
-re-build people
-remove psychological effects, like Charms, Geas, Compulsions etc.
-design exercise/psych training regimines; these give Inherent stat bonuses (an alternate to wishes)
o Hide
-Hides from stuff what can see/notice hidesing stuff; like Dwagons or Beholders or Minotaurs
o Intimidate
o Jump
o Knowledge
o Listen
o Move Silently
o Open Lock
o Perform
o Profession


o Ride
o Search
o Sense Motive
-the epic stuff, earlier, maybe
o Sleight Of Hand
-you can make attacks that ignore the target's dex mod to AC; melee rogues are now viable in solo
o Speak Language
o Spellcraft
o Spot
o Survival
-ignore terrain penalties to movement
-a scaling bonus to other skills? (listen, hide, move silently, spot, search)
-
o Swim
o Tumble
o Use Magic Device
o Use Rope
-it's still the redheaded stepchild of the skills list imo
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 4:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The ones that need no help at all are IMO UMD, Listen, Spot, Hide and Move Silently - those let you choose on which end of "fvcking killing people" you'll be just by normal investment. Bluff actually does do something defined in the rules (by which I mean indeed lying, though feinting's defined too), but the exact usefulness of that's ... so campaign specific I dunno what to say - I guess let's assume that people taking it should be in games where it matters lots, so it's one of the best too. And Sense Motive's likely at whatever point Bluff is. Concentration's weird because its uses are either near-static or actually hopeless - so I'd suggest fixing its DCs and then wondering if it needs anything else. Craft: I'm not sure if it's stated in the Tomes (I think it's not in the originals, only in Iaimeki's article), but indeed the plan was for it to be a single skill - which I suppose the item creation system should use. Profession: well, you know. Diplomacy: Iaimeki only fixed the numerical problems and he knew it - other problems are still there, and I suppose it still technically wins on its own, so much that it does need further fixing (down). Intimidate: it's possible to make characters that win pretty hard with it, but moreover, simply having a party with it can lead to some pretty stupid stuff - thoughts? Perform: it didn't do anything previously, other than for a class - so I might even say replace it with something of more general purpose. Speak Language: might be fine - if it's not, what to give it? There's also the arguably-important issue of deciding on some, if any, skill compression, as various members did.

As for the skill item question bound to surface: Iaimeki's article dealt with it better than the BoG, IMO.

As for spellcasters benefitting, there's the issue that any with, say, 4 skill points/level and a couple skills that weren't decent previously and would start being would benefit. What one could list from official material: beguiler and druid definitely don't need any sort of help, bard and spirit shaman probably do actually, and I'm not sure whether artificers and factotums count (the latter might need help - the former surely not). Worth mentioning that if knowledges get improved as well (something I'd a priori not worry about, since they tend to be worse than the good skills, but look at the consequences for classes), wizards and archivists might get a big boost. I'm not sure you use the Tomes, but relevant stuff from there would be: assassin, elementalist, jester, summoner and true fiend if you're willing to count that. Worth mentioning that Frank's bard's a lot closer to a full spellcaster and still good at skill use (in fact, as Frank himself said, as good at it as the rogue).
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Caliborn: Oops. I don't know if the 6 is a typo, an oversight, or if that made sense at the time. I wanted to spell out what the various ranks did in a clear and consistent way; there's enough extra stuff going on that I didn't want to hide stuff in skill text like it is now, which is why it's out on its own.

Talisman: I'm still not sure how you're answering the two questions. ZERO pretty clearly says that he agrees with you that it should come 2 spell levels after the spell (so 4 levels), but then you say that it would be okay to give water balancing at 5th level, the same level as divine spell casters are getting it for 10 minutes a level (Fly's a poor example, and one I think the Jump skill would be better used to deal with). I'm with you on the DC though, it should be pretty reliable no later than 2 spell levels after the spell came around.

JE: I like your list. I'm working on one of my own that pulls the epic uses down and also imports core spells that could be skill uses on their own. The later is interesting in that I don't see a lot of spells past 5th level that would work well.

Bigode: More or less with you on the skills. Skill compression is a good call for the hopeless ones, but since the scheme is a pain to sort I don't think it's a good idea to tackle it here. Easy enough to just do up the individual skills and then let people sort what stuff would live nicely together in their games.

I don't use the tomes, but it's only because I play in largely low-mid level organic games with people who don't optimize their casters; the tome stuff isn't as necessary in those situations. I cry on the inside at the inefficiency, but they're having fun I guess so I roll with it. I'd prefer this stuff to be compatible with the tomes though, and potentially included in the pdf if it's worth it, so those are considerations to keep in mind.


I guess this is a good a time as any to discuss methodology, since the general idea seems to be fine. If a skill has a use that mimics a spell (as opposed to the other way), I didn't want the skill to do it until 2 levels after the spell was in play. Magic, in my head anyway, is basically cheating, and I wanted to allow the casters their limited benefit period. All the minimum ranks above are configured that way.

After that, the DCs were mostly set to assume that someone with max ranks would need a bonus of around their level to do stuff "reliably". I didn't waste time worrying about whether that extra came from stats or feats or items or whatever because I don't really care where it comes from. I just assumed it would happen in the game and moved on, if I'm off by 2 points I don't think it matters much.

The actual abilities I tried to pull from source material and differentiate from the spells in question and build in some sort of limiting function. That's why it's harder to balance on stuff if you're not running across it, the source stuff that came to mind wasn't standing around on it but just not stopping for it. The running thing came with its own limiter, the limited duration of the run action before fatigue sets in, but it barely needs it early on since multiple use of this is basically a single failure ending skill challenge that you're unlikely to succeed at over a long enough time. Even though you could use it all day if you wanted, the limits made sure it was in smaller pieces that were pretty distinct from the larger duration, more movement flexible spell. I thought it worked out fairly well that way, but in retrospect the movement penalties might be a bit stiff.
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Bigode
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 13, 2009 8:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

For now, I'll just say that skill compression might make some skills more useful enough to not need help, but I guess it's perfectly possible to figure that out later on.
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Talisman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Here's a shot at Climb. All effects subject to revision and upgrade.




Climb (Str)

5 ranks: Defensive Climber. You no longer lose your Dexterity bonus to AC when climbing
(note: Balance does this automatically but, AFAIK, Climb does not).

6 ranks: Swift Climb. You can now climb at 1/2 your normal speed at no penalty.

Brachiation. Your Climb skill enables you to maneuver through tree branches (or any similar terrain) at 1/2 your normal land speed.

8 ranks: Einhander. You can climb one-handed, leaving your other hand free to hold a weapon, cast a spell, or whatever.

10 ranks: Wall-Walker. You can now move at your full speed while climbing, at no penalty. You can even Tumble or charge while climbing, but you cannot full run.

Swing Like a Monkey. You can move through tree branches or similar terrain at your full speed, anc can even Tumble or charge.

Touch of the Gecko. You can climb surfaces that should be physically impossible to climb, such as a wall of force or a ceiling. The base DC for this feat is 30.

12 Ranks: Look Ma, No Hands! You can climb with only two limbs (hand or feet, any combination) on the surface. This allows you to keep your hands (or feet) free for other purposes.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Looks like a fair first pass. I'd like to get a "run up walls" (some vertical distance as horizontal as part of a run action with climb check) in there earlier since spider climb is such an early spell, but with full speed climbing at level 7 I'm not sure how useful/necessary it would be. Brachiation could use some more broad wording as well. I'd rather not pass up an opportunity to put chandelier swinging charges in the game for once 8)
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Here's the first part of my full skill tweak list.

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Other half later.
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 7:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nice concept TF. It's pretty much skills-as-Tome feats as I see.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, I want Concentration to be a "tough guy" skill, with Barbarians or Fighters gritting their teeth and coughing out blood all Berzerk-style instead of dying to a SoD.

I'm also fine with squishy casters using Concentration to keep poison from killing them (fort saves). Mostly b/c I see it as a mind over body skill. Seeing as

Making the skill good for nearly everyone; rogues get coverage for their weaknesses; wizards get some extra coverage on a weak point, as do non-raging barbarians.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

JE, i'd be happy with making concentration a more general ignore pain skill, but it's class skill assignments would need to be rethought. which I'm fine with, it just wasn't something i really wanted to deal with here. i'd rather do skill reimagnings (like diplomacy -> affability) as part of a larger class skill rethink, and I wanted to see if skills could be worth the effort first (even if the rethink requires additional tweaks).

Anyway, second half.

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Meikle641
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, there *sort of* is such a skill, but it only partly helps with that. The name? Autohypnosis, that skill from the XPH (Yes, boo hiss, I know.).

Let's you auto-stabilize, ignore secondary poison damage, roll to ignore fear effects (Fear is the mind killer, bitch), and memorize shit. Not quite, but it has potential.


Last edited by Meikle641 on Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 3:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That was the idea, I want auto-hypnotism to be put into concentration.

Since they're the same process to overcome the same sort of effects.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 15, 2009 4:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, if that's the case, then why not split it into two skills, maybe? One being all about toughing shit out by being a hard man, and the other by being some weird mentalist.

Perhaps one would be like 4e/Saga's Endurance (going without food, shrugging off environmental crap, whatever or Use The Force (Trances, etc). Or something.
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