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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
but that hasn't mattered to the detractors, who feel that violating someone's agency is violating someone's agency.


Then those people are fucking idiots, and they are currently violating my agency by not letting me murder them and get away with it.

Or you know, people's agency is not a thing that is uniquely good and never capable of interfering with other's agency.

Are these idiots aware that they are pro-racism libertarians or do they think they aren't?
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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virgil
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

These people seem to be taking the stance of personal agency is important at least insofar as it doesn't infringe upon others. They've not been advocating that personal agency to harm/infringe others should be protected, but forcing a doctor to perform an operation is a violation of their autonomy (for example).
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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

virgil wrote:
These people seem to be taking the stance of personal agency is important at least insofar as it doesn't infringe upon others. They've not been advocating that personal agency to harm/infringe others should be protected, but forcing a doctor to perform an operation is a violation of their autonomy (for example).


Yeah I mean, the first part about denying my agency to murder them was a joke. But I was totally serious about the part where they are in fact pro-racism libertarians, and I wonder if they are aware of that.

I mean, when racists refuse to hire or serve blacks, are you going to be evil and bad deny them their agency by forcing them to? And if not, then how is that any different from Asshole McSelfish refusing because he's offended?
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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I own a hospital. I refuse to admit homosexuals for treatment. Should the government use force or threat of force to coerce me to do so?

Fine, let's not use an example where lives are potentially at stake. I rent apartments. I refuse to rent to homosexual couples. Should the government use force or threat of force to coerce me to do so?

We live in a world where people can both intentionally (the RNC) and unintentionally (random ass racist people fucking everywhere) coordinate efforts to deny access to goods and services to minorities by simply owning those goods/services and not doing business with those minorities. Agency is only the ultimate moral good for people like Randian objectivists. If you agree with shit like the Fair Housing Act, then you believe there are moral goods more important than individual agency. I'll leave people to explore their own limits, because holy shit that's a complicated subject, but it does mean having to make more nuanced arguments than "someone forced someone else to do something they didn't want to do, and that's bad" because that sentence describes the federal prohibition against refusing to rent apartments to black people because they're black, and fuck you if you think we shouldn't have that prohibition.
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MGuy
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That kind of 'freedom for freedom's sake' attitude is pretty popular. Not even just to gun toting people who insist on not having their right to get guns inhibited by the messy business of having to register them. A guy I don't know just blocked me on facebook for asking him how is it good to have a significant portion of the population working full time for below poverty wages while being simultaneously against public welfare. No answer, just blocked. This is after he held up Seattle, Washington as some kind of proof that raising the minimum wage was bad somehow (after making the standard argument that businesses should be free to make their own choices because they only make good ones).

Edit: Somehow didn't see the two posts before this one. Yea, libertarians, blah blah bad.
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Blade
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Joined: 14 Sep 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

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Kaelik
ArchDemon of Rage


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 1:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not sure why you would think that democratic voting on single use superhero powers is the correct moral framework.

Pretty much by definition people unwilling to use their powers for a specific action that benefits the world in total are not going to register each action they refuse to take with a bureau, and the people have fuck zero knowledge about the situation.

The very best case scenario is that they vote into office congress people who pass a law that creates an agency that regulates super hero action, and then someone heads the agency who is capable of enforcing it's decisions on other super heroes and connected enough to the superhero community to know what is going on... So basically,
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without a vote.

So there you go, right back to not voting.

If you don't know how the government currently handles decisions about Disaster Relief, or Fire Codes, or the Regulation of Food, then your opinion on how we should vote on each use of super powers is less than worthless.
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Blade
Knight


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 2:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm not saying it's the correct moral framework and I'm not talking about democratic voting on single use superhero powers.

What I'm saying is that it's up to societies to regulate the use of powers (not just superpowers but any power, like the power to kill, the power to grow stuff or the power to build stuff).

And in the case of democracies, it's done by having laws (that are created through a democratic process that's supposed to keep them aligned with society's stance) state how they should be used and mechanisms (theoretically transparent enough) to check that these laws are respected (and if needed that the laws are kept up to date with the evolution of that power).
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TiaC
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I would say that the obvious way society would validate her decisions would be for him to attempt to bring charges against her. That is usually how society defines what is acceptable.
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Mechalich
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Joined: 04 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

TiaC wrote:
I would say that the obvious way society would validate her decisions would be for him to attempt to bring charges against her. That is usually how society defines what is acceptable.


Actually in this specific case society would bring charges against her, because she committed a crime against him, specifically, extortion. So if he wanted to he could report said crime and which ever state he lives in would choose whether or not to bring criminal charges. Of course there are no witnesses in this case and no physical damage, so no case would ever be made, but that's not really relevant to the ethics.

The real ethical question presented, for my money, is one of justification. Is it justified to do harm in the service of doing good? It's a reducto ad absurdium argument for utilitarianism: the potential harms being extremely small and the potential good being practically off the scale.

Once you accept the utilitarian principle as operating though, you start talking about issues of scale. So, what if, in order to achieve the same outcome, rather than wasting four hours of his time and traumatizing him slightly, she'd needed to kill him?

Is you could cure cancer forever by walking across the hall and killing the person who lives next door would you do it? And would it be justified? would it be correct?

For a government, building a framework of laws and policies, the answer is certainly yes, because the law deals with people as abstractions and takes the Spockian view. Superheros, by contrast, reduce the ethical to the personal and one of the strengths of SFP is its general awareness of this. I also think that the answer proffered in this specific case: that you'd do it, but you wouldn't feel good about yourself afterwards, is about right.
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Stahlseele
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Furthermore, he does not want anybody else to know he is a freak of nature.
Also, he and his family employ (illegal) immigrants doing their gardening work and so on being paid under the hand. So, yeah, he has no real way to do anything about people being assholeish to him for being assholish to everybody else.
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virgil
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Found this, which I found to be amusingly relevant.
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Mask_De_H
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Stahlseele wrote:
Furthermore, he does not want anybody else to know he is a freak of nature.
Also, he and his family employ (illegal) immigrants doing their gardening work and so on being paid under the hand. So, yeah, he has no real way to do anything about people being assholeish to him for being assholish to everybody else.


And those illegals don't really have anything they can do about working his garden for peanuts.

Fuck what he wants. If your rights end where another's begins, then what happened is merely someone stronger imposing their right to act. Nothing in Libertarianism makes you too special to get your shit run.
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Indeed, every part of libertarianism eventually traces itself back to the idea that if your grandfather murdered people and declared that he owned all the fertile land then it's not violence to refuse to feed anyone until they all die of starvation, but that it is violence for other people to sneak onto "your property" and grow crops and tend them, and then eat the produce.

If you don't agree with that arbitrary distinction, then you can't really be a libertarian, which is why so much of libertarian intellectualism is devoted to self deception on that point.
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Kaelik gonna kaelik. Whatcha gonna do?
That's libertarians for you - anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Chiming in on SFP, re: Max's total lack of intelligence (or creativity) with the power to buff other supernatural characters.

Appreciably, the fact that it's possibly a "highest" tier power means that his ability to buff would not only grow with practice, but would develop new powers; possible the sorts of powers that would impress as stupid and rockheaded a character like Max. Finally, there's a good likelihood that his "useless" power could catapult even "tier 4" Biodynamics to tier 1 capabilities.

The fact that someone who comes from asymmetric financial power; and can't see a and purpose in a value multiplier as a means to create even greater asymmetric financial power... is more a product of the writer's lack of understanding of... well... humans. Especially the mindset of capital gain focused humans. If you have an advantage over everyone else in the business or financial sector, to ask the audience to believe that they won't not leverage it is cognitively dissonant content.

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DSMatticus
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

"Stupid kid (who may be kind of a spoiled brat) wants to be personally awesome, throws tantrum when life denies him" isn't really weird. It's weird that an adult is still getting all choked up over it, because grow the fuck up, but whatever.

But yes, SFP tends to write certain characters as painfully on the nose as possible. See any of Alison's professors or classmates. There are some characters in SFP who exist only to be hated, and when they show up holy shit are they obvious (and also kind of wildly unbelievable).
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I don't think whatshername was wrong for forcing this dude to help, but if that was my super power I'd tell her to fuck off too.

Question, because I don't care to read the comic, did the guy ask for any sort of compensation or is he just being hard-headed? I could defend "Fuck you, pay me" but not "Fuck you, I'm refusing because fuck you".
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Schleiermacher
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 7:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

His original reason for refusing was that he didn't want anyone to know about his power, but once that was adressed it was explicitly and spesifically "Fuck you, I'm refusing because fuck you."
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I can understand the first (some supervillain would have no qualms with coercing him to improve their powers) but the second is just being pig-headed.
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Chiming in on SFP, re: Max's total lack of intelligence (or creativity) with the power to buff other supernatural characters.

Appreciably, the fact that it's possibly a "highest" tier power means that his ability to buff would not only grow with practice, but would develop new powers; possible the sorts of powers that would impress as stupid and rockheaded a character like Max. Finally, there's a good likelihood that his "useless" power could catapult even "tier 4" Biodynamics to tier 1 capabilities.


That was my thought, as well.

We've already seen that powers develop as they're used, based on the actual mechanisms by which they work. Alison has a skin-tight forcefield that makes her highly resistant to damage and gives her super-strength. And that eventually evolves into flight. Moonshadow had invisibility by bending light, and that eventually grew to include complex illusions by bending light.

If Max can manipulate powers, then he can manipulate powers. He might start off as just a buffer, but pretty soon he's likely develop the ability to take powers away, giving him the most effective anti-superhuman power.
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Judging__Eagle
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The character of Paladin in SFP is also holding an idiotball of massive proportions.

They claim that all of their patents "have" to be bought by Templar Corp..

However, they're too stubborn to simply release their "world changing" technology as open source material. Thereby circumventing the whole process of patent claims.

Shit, they could simply be leaking all of this tech to all sorts of rival corps to Templar Corp and force them to litigate with them instead of Paladin themselves.

Seriously this is so easy that it happens in the real world, Elon Musk does that with old Tesla designs; why isn't Paladin?
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hyzmarca
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Judging__Eagle wrote:
The character of Paladin in SFP is also holding an idiotball of massive proportions.

They claim that all of their patents "have" to be bought by Templar Corp..

However, they're too stubborn to simply release their "world changing" technology as open source material. Thereby circumventing the whole process of patent claims.

Shit, they could simply be leaking all of this tech to all sorts of rival corps to Templar Corp and force them to litigate with them instead of Paladin themselves.

Seriously this is so easy that it happens in the real world, Elon Musk does that with old Tesla designs; why isn't Paladin?


There's also the fact that Templar Corp was a criminal enterprise that would have reasonably been hit with RICO so fucking hard. It's literally a front organization whose sole purpose was providing combat robots to a supervillain who seriously tried to conquer the world.

There's also the fact that the contract could be voided by Templar if they hadn't A simple renegotiation in which she agrees not to murder Templar's CEO in exchange for being let out of her original contract should suffice. And if it doesn't, she could work through Templar CEOs until she gets one that values his life more than her contract.

Allison said it best, really. Every day that she doesn't murder thousands of people, they should throw her a ticker-tape parade. Allison and Paladin are both operating at above the law power levels, in the sense that any attempt to enforce the law on them would fail miserably.
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erik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'd really like it Allison finished barfing and then got a serious look at doctor Walden and said "tell me about the other opportunities."
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