Okay, so I've done the readthrough of K's Necromancy, and I'm casually breezing through the Dread Necro handbook, and I'm afraid that even in a high-powered game such as a Tome game that this is crazy. However, it also has quite a bit of flavor, and can be very fun. This game will probably start at level 1, making it a bit less painful.
So, I don't know what this character would go for, but I figure it is a decent assumption that they take Tomb Tainted Soul and Body Assemblage. Assuming that they take no other feats, I believe that this breaks down to:
Level 1 - unlimited self healing, 2 skeletons walking around. Better than a good number of level 1 characters, but meh on the whole.
Level 5 (+5 mod assumed) - up to 5 CR 3 undead, up to 5 additional HD of undead of non-skele/zombies. The two big game-breakers are: 1) Shadows can flat out kill most things if the Necro can get his grubby hands on one, and 2) we are looking at 5 Skeleton Trolls, each of which is better than most party fighters, AND another 5 human skeletons.
Level 8 (+6 mod assumed) - up to 6 CR 6 creatures, up to 8 HD of undead through rebuking (these can be non-skele/zombies), AND up to (4+6)HD*level = EIGHTY HD of other undead (no one of which can have more than 40 HD).
The obvious way to limit this exponential power gain is to limit the bodies of creatures which are found. However, this easily breaks down at higher levels when the character can just adventure for undead, and essentially any slain creature gets reanimated (80 HD cap at level 8, why not?).
Is there any reason this is not crazytown-style overpowered? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction to something that actually plays out quite well? I still think that it can be fun, but I also have to think of the other players in the campaign, what will be their part in the undead army? Will this take a giant amount of playtime to construct/maintain? Are battlemat battles even possible anymore once on character can conceivably control 10 others?
Side note: I never realized that "undead army" was such an easy character option to pull off. If you limit yourself to a simple Neutral Cleric at level 5 with no rebuking or anything, you can totally have 20HD of undead (2 CR5 Ettins...).
edit: math was 8*8 rather than the 10*8 that it is...
Coping/Dealing with a Dread Necromancer in a Tome game
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 948
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Coping/Dealing with a Dread Necromancer in a Tome game
Last edited by SunTzuWarmaster on Fri Nov 07, 2008 3:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
I am currently playing in a game with a Horde Necromancer (not to mention the two Horde Enchanters), so I am familiar with the problems you are concerned about. To answer your questions:SunTzuWarmaster wrote:Is there any reason this is not crazytown-style overpowered? Am I having a knee-jerk reaction to something that actually plays out quite well? I still think that it can be fun, but I also have to think of the other players in the campaign, what will be their part in the undead army? Will this take a giant amount of playtime to construct/maintain? Are battlemat battles even possible anymore once on character can conceivably control 10 others?
Yes, this will go "crazytown-style overpowered" if you allow the Necromancer full freedom and the other Pc's are at a sane power level. There are 3 possible responses to this:
1) The other Pc's are the Necromancers henchmen. This probably isn't desirable.
2) The other Pc's are also crazy-powerful. This takes a lot of effort on everyone's part to keep the party equally Roided across the early and mid levels. Not recommended.
3) The Dm and the player of the Necromancer come to a gentlemen's agreement. The goal is for the Dm (and the player even) to create reasons why the Necromancer doesn't bring his personal army along in every dungeon. There are lots of possible houserules, but it is probably preferable to create realistic reasons why this is the case. Here is a list of possible reasons:
-The party needs to guard their base of operations, or whatever, and so they leave a majority contingent on guard duty. There could be unholy magics which make the undead more powerful while there, so it effectively increases the party's power to have some in reserve (If they are used defensively).
--It is to the Necro's advantage to have a penned stockpile of uncontrolled undead, which are used to quickly replace destroyed grunts. Leaving some controlled undead to guard these is standard procedure.
-Clerics are also Npc's. There is a threat that the party might encounter a group of rebuking specced Clerics which can rebuke all the Necromancers undead and TPK the party. The threat grows as it becomes known that the Necromancer has a large number of the choicest, most powerful undead. This becomes more likely the more predictable and notorious the Necromancer becomes. So if the Necromancer only brings a small contingent, the chance of a reversal is small.
-If the Necromancer is Dominated or Rebuked himself, he and his army would easily TPK the party. So, there is less risk of catastrophe if the Necro bring a small number of undead.
-AoE's are the Necromancer's bane. Undead have poor reflex saves, there are some spells which do more damage to undead, and they don't get out of the way very well. It also costs a lot (in gp or spells) to make them resistant to elemental damage. If there is a threat that the Necromancer's undead could be turned into toast in one encounter, he will not bring them all along at once.
-The various Rp shenanigans you can pull with an undead army running around in the background.
Yes, this can "take a giant amount of playtime to construct/maintain." Imagine keeping track of a dozen (or more) Npcs, which are constantly destroyed, replaced, and upgraded. Also, the type of foes the party defeats dictates the caliber of the undead. I recommend using shortcuts or agreeing to houserules with the player before the game.
Yes, battlemat battles are possible with 10+ minions. They can go by at a snails pace, or relatively quickly. It all depends upon the player, and how fast they are. Use shortcuts to keep his turn to a reasonable amount of time.
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
May I ask if you would have anything relevantly different in an analysis of the puppeteer?
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
-
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 948
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Not as much. You are pretty much limited to one zombie until level 5, then a skeleton until level 9. At level 9 you hard-capped at 9 skeletons/zombies and a Flesh golem. I think that at 4*CL HD for each one is a bit much, but that that was probably a miss-print on Franks part (surely he didn't mean a total HD cap of 4*9*9 = 11664, and instead intended to have it work almost exactly like Animate Dead).
The Dread Necromancer is getting more than twice as many HD as the Puppeteer at the same level, with the option to split. The thought occurs to me that presented with these two classes, one of them is not balanced. I tend to favor the Dread Necromancer as the unbalanced one because on top of eclipsing the entire Puppeteer character (a F&K character, no less, assuming the intent was 4*CL HD in total), the DN also gets 9 caster levels.
Couple either of these characters with Body Assemblage, and I think it gets crazy fairly quickly.
The Dread Necromancer is getting more than twice as many HD as the Puppeteer at the same level, with the option to split. The thought occurs to me that presented with these two classes, one of them is not balanced. I tend to favor the Dread Necromancer as the unbalanced one because on top of eclipsing the entire Puppeteer character (a F&K character, no less, assuming the intent was 4*CL HD in total), the DN also gets 9 caster levels.
Couple either of these characters with Body Assemblage, and I think it gets crazy fairly quickly.
Yeah, I intended to get feedback exactly on what you assume to be a misprint. I hope it is, but Frank's non-answering oath gets in the way.
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
Re: Coping/Dealing with a Dread Necromancer in a Tome game
Just a side note: I'm not sure if Tomb-Tained Soul does anything you care about "on the side," but if the goal is just to be healed by negative energy, then in a Tome game you could just take the Moil Wrought background and get that effect without burning a feat.SunTzuWarmaster wrote:So, I don't know what this character would go for, but I figure it is a decent assumption that they take Tomb Tainted Soul
Code: Select all
Perspective:
....
/.../I
I I I
I...I/
I'd say the reaction is knee jerk, especially since this is a Tome game.
On limitless self healing; Hell, I hand my players a slotted command word item of cure minor wounds at second level in their monster treasure, and as a PC it's my first commissioned magic item as soon as i find 900gp and a 3ed level cleric with creaft wondrous item.
As a player who's love of undead is limited only by necrophylia, here's a report of an actual 5th level and up cleric "animator" it play:
He rides around on cart pulled by a skeletal heavy war horse, at least untill he can find somethin cool like a hippogriff, gryphon, or manticore to zombify. In this cart he keeps all of this day's dead: Dead monsters, dead NPCs, dead PCs. At the end of they day, they all circle up and hold hands 'round his desecrated alter to Nerull as he casts Animate Dead, twice; once for the skellies, once for the zombies. Any slain, corporal creature he comes accross joins his evening singalong to Uncle Nerull. Any undead he comes accross are rebuked by the sight of his awesomeness, or compelled to follow the awesomeness around.
Don't even pretend that Turn/Rebuke undead is gonna work for his constantly desecrated 'Wrecking crew', which will include a minimum of:
Book keeping is a bitch, but you get to the point where you memorize the Skeleton and Zombie Templates, and it seriously takes like 2 minutes to jot down a stat block in a notebook.
Rogues like Undead Allies, mostly for the sneak attack they get when flanking with a Huge Hydra Zombie or attacking somebody grappling with a Huge Hydra Zombie. Parties like undead Minions like spider swarms and shit, 'cuz it's like summoning a celestial monkey to set of traps, only you still have the trap springer afterward (immune to weapon damage/single targeted effects, you should'a had detect magic up to detect the fireball trap, dumbass). DMs like Undead minions/Animal Companions/Familliars/Special Mounts/ Cohorts/Followers because they kill them super hard core without resulting in a dead PC or TPK. Dumbass Melee Fighters love flying zombies, as do ranged fighters and archer clerics.
In fact, the only kind of adventures where having "Undead Minions" is a no-go are infiltration and stealth games, but could be side stepped with some hats of disguise, or the seeming spell.
You're doing a Tome game, which means he's in a party with a Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian, Samaurai, Monk, or Firemage, and they will never feel small in the pants compared to the Necromancer's damage output. A Summoner/Beguiler complements the Necromancer, with their other meat walls and illusions. This is D+D, it's gonna get a little crazy before the game goes crazy at level 11, where you either Stand Up and do crazy shit or STFU and bow out, otherwise a "level-appropriate" encounter will eat you like a druid.
He rides around on cart pulled by a skeletal heavy war horse, at least untill he can find somethin cool like a hippogriff, gryphon, or manticore to zombify. In this cart he keeps all of this day's dead: Dead monsters, dead NPCs, dead PCs. At the end of they day, they all circle up and hold hands 'round his desecrated alter to Nerull as he casts Animate Dead, twice; once for the skellies, once for the zombies. Any slain, corporal creature he comes accross joins his evening singalong to Uncle Nerull. Any undead he comes accross are rebuked by the sight of his awesomeness, or compelled to follow the awesomeness around.
Don't even pretend that Turn/Rebuke undead is gonna work for his constantly desecrated 'Wrecking crew', which will include a minimum of:
- at low levels...
Exactly 1 Animated Warhorse Skeleton
Several Animated Elf Skeletons wielding Longbows
Several Animated Orc Warrior Zombies wielding Greataxes
Several Animated Animal Zombies of various types
Exaxtly 1 Commanded Shadow
Exactly 1 Commanded Wight
And eventually...
At least 1 Animated 5 headed hydra zombie
At least 1 Animated Titan Skeleton
At least 1 Animated Young Red Dragon Zombie
Exactly 1 Created Mohrg
1 Commanded horde of Wights
1 Commanded Horde of Shadows
1 grab bag of lower level shit no one really cares about.
Book keeping is a bitch, but you get to the point where you memorize the Skeleton and Zombie Templates, and it seriously takes like 2 minutes to jot down a stat block in a notebook.
Rogues like Undead Allies, mostly for the sneak attack they get when flanking with a Huge Hydra Zombie or attacking somebody grappling with a Huge Hydra Zombie. Parties like undead Minions like spider swarms and shit, 'cuz it's like summoning a celestial monkey to set of traps, only you still have the trap springer afterward (immune to weapon damage/single targeted effects, you should'a had detect magic up to detect the fireball trap, dumbass). DMs like Undead minions/Animal Companions/Familliars/Special Mounts/ Cohorts/Followers because they kill them super hard core without resulting in a dead PC or TPK. Dumbass Melee Fighters love flying zombies, as do ranged fighters and archer clerics.
In fact, the only kind of adventures where having "Undead Minions" is a no-go are infiltration and stealth games, but could be side stepped with some hats of disguise, or the seeming spell.
You're doing a Tome game, which means he's in a party with a Rogue, Fighter, Barbarian, Samaurai, Monk, or Firemage, and they will never feel small in the pants compared to the Necromancer's damage output. A Summoner/Beguiler complements the Necromancer, with their other meat walls and illusions. This is D+D, it's gonna get a little crazy before the game goes crazy at level 11, where you either Stand Up and do crazy shit or STFU and bow out, otherwise a "level-appropriate" encounter will eat you like a druid.