The X virtuous men of history or whatever

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 9:31 pm

I had read somewhere that in history there are these 8 or 9 men who are considered the pillars of virtue or strength.

I've spent the last 20-30 minutes looking online for something along the lines for this and I can't find anything. My google-fu seems to be weakening obviously. If I remember right, it might have included one of the Caesars and maybe Judah Maccabeus? I went through the wikis for all the Caesars and even several of the Iscariots and Judases (dae?), and couldn't find anything. ANy help on this?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:09 pm

You're probably looking for the seven people that Dante put up as arbitrarily representing the seven heavenly virtues of Temperance, Prudence, Faith, Courage, Justice, Hope, and Charity.

It's a rather silly system, and is deeply biased by Italian politics of the time, and he position of Dante's patrons in them. Judas, by the way, is put up as the number one sinner in that book. He languishes in the mouth of Lucifer for eternity for the ultimate sin of betrayal.

-Username17

Count Arioch the 28th · Sun Sep 28, 2008 11:59 pm

I never understood why Judas is portrayed as such a prick.

I know a lot of christians, and in general they consider Jesus dying for their sins to be a good thing for them. Why so pissed at Judas, he was enabling their sins to be forgiven and for them to go to heaven.

Is this one of the instances where Christianity isn't supposed to make sense?

Prak · Post by **Prak** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:01 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I never understood why Judas is portrayed as such a prick.

I know a lot of christians, and in general they consider Jesus dying for their sins to be a good thing for them. Why so pissed at Judas, he was enabling their sins to be forgiven and for them to go to heaven.

Is this one of the instances where Christianity isn't supposed to make sense?

no, it's one instance in many where christians aren't thinking.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 2:13 am

I heard one theory that it wasn't so much for the bit where he betrayed Jesus (after all, Jesus predicted it, and it was planned to happen. This would make God an enormous prick. Oh wait, he IS an enormous prick!), but because he hanged himself afterwards. One of those "Suicide: another ultimate sin" things, presumably because it means they don't get the pleasure of hacking the murderer to pieces afterwards and feel cheated.

But some argue that, even though it's God's fault for making it happen, and even though it had to happen for Jesus to be captured and sacrificed*, Judas betrayed Jesus and that makes him the biggest bad guy ever. Whereas the soldiers who arrested him were just doing as they're told, the crowd that condemned him were just a bit thick**, the very priests who organised his death were just laughable old villains, bless them, Pilate is remembered as being a bastard for washing his hands of it instead of getting killed for saying "No, I won't do it." and the guys who actually nailed him to the cross never get a mention. Oh, and Longinus stabbed him to prove he was dead, and he gets an artefact weapon out of the deal.

-Koumei, sending religious people into fits of rage since 2002.

*It didn't, though. Seriously. He could have just wandered up and said "I turn myself in. It's a fair cop, guv, but I blame society. No, really, this one is society's fault. You evil [EDITED]." Or whatever. But Judas wasn't really needed for it, they just needed someone else to screw over in order for God to sacrifice himself to himself to appease himself.

**I mean, he did go around curing people like Doctor House, but without the sarcasm, insults and breaking into their homes, so it's probably an easy mistake to make. "I should thank him and do whatever he says!" is so similar to "He should be crucified for that!" when you get down to it.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 3:36 am

One of Norman Mailer's worse books was written as a 1st person point of view from jesus called "The Gospel according to the son" in which he kinda rants about why Judas was going to be crucified for his supposed sins.

I'd still recommend the book, even for being one of Mailer's worse books, it's still a book by Norman mailer which means that it's pretty good (at least to me, some people could think it's absolute tripe.)

~

Frank: Thank you. I think you are right. Dante rings a bell in this regard with my old Italian lit class. Obviously Judas was in INferno. But were the rest of them written into Paradisio or Purgatario? ANy idea? If not, I'll probably spend this weekend digging through Dante. It's not something I mind. It'll just be different. I've spent the last couple of weeks reading Punisher, now I'll be reading Aligheri.

Manxome · Post by **Manxome** » Mon Sep 29, 2008 5:49 am

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:I know a lot of christians, and in general they consider Jesus dying for their sins to be a good thing for them. Why so pissed at Judas, he was enabling their sins to be forgiven and for them to go to heaven.

I think most Christians are not consequentialists.

Considering that I can't presently think of any rigorous consequentialist philosophy that I am able to take seriously, I'm OK with that.

angelfromanotherpin · Mon Sep 29, 2008 12:13 pm

Christian mythology is screwed up from the get-go. The part where God takes on mortal flesh to suffer and die to save humanity is a cool idea, right up until you consider that what they need saving from is God's own intolerance for the moral weaknesses that he deliberately created in them in the first place. That's right about when it becomes a protection scam.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 3:46 pm

angelfromanotherpin wrote:Christian mythology is screwed up from the get-go. The part where God takes on mortal flesh to suffer and die to save humanity is a cool idea, right up until you consider that what they need saving from is God's own intolerance for the moral weaknesses that he deliberately created in them in the first place. That's right about when it becomes a protection scam.

You know, I'm not the biggest supporter of Christianity but all religions have protection scams in one way or another.

Well most at least.

I mean Buddhism doesn't seem to have one as far as I've seen.

Hinduism -- The gods have to give the demons literally omnipotent power with legalese clauses that they can only be saved by Gods who come down in specific forms to save them. Yeah, that's protectionism.

Judaism - shit how many times did god say go kill the neighboring tribe to the bone including kids, women, cattle, or all the power that I guaranteed you is going to be gone.

Islam - I can't think of specifics but it has had similarities.

That's all I'm hitting up for now.

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 4:07 pm

A_Cynic wrote:I mean Buddhism doesn't seem to have one as far as I've seen.

Yeah, I've mostly failed to find one too. The closest I came's the old "don't envy the rich".

CatharzGodfoot · Post by **CatharzGodfoot** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 7:29 pm

Various types of Buddhism take demons and gods from Hinduism and probably other religions as well. I'm also pretty sure that they still have the whole 'donate to temples to get good karma' thing going on.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 8:04 pm

CatharzGodfoot wrote:Various types of Buddhism take demons and gods from Hinduism and probably other religions as well. I'm also pretty sure that they still have the whole 'donate to temples to get good karma' thing going on.

Well I'm going away from "religion is a protectionism racket" in general angle because the idea is "Gahd/Force/Flying-Laser-Beam-Buddha is awesome-sauce, you worship/acknowledge/get-down-on-your-knees-for-jesus/whatevs/ and then you get resurrection/midochlorians/karma/platinum-records" already exists. I'm trying to go for a specific protection racket angle of buddhism that I can't find.

Lago PARANOIA · Post by **Lago PARANOIA** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:35 pm

Actually, Satan's an incredible pussy when you think about it.

How many people did he personally kill in the Bible? Go on, I'm waiting.

And Divine Comedy, the definitive vision of hell, what was Satan like? He froze himself in a fucking lake with his own wings. That's Bebop and Rocksteady levels of patheticness right there. And he can't even laugh evilly or spout curses, because he fucking has middle-aged men crammed into his mouths like a goddamn glutton.

What a maroon.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Oct 02, 2008 9:53 pm

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Actually, Satan's an incredible pussy when you think about it.

How many people did he personally kill in the Bible? Go on, I'm waiting.

And Divine Comedy, the definitive vision of hell, what was Satan like? He froze himself in a fucking lake with his own wings. That's Bebop and Rocksteady levels of patheticness right there. And he can't even laugh evilly or spout curses, because he fucking has middle-aged men crammed into his mouths like a goddamn glutton.

What a maroon.

Meh, divine comedy was more about Hell rather than the ruler.

Satan shows up as the tempter in NT but that's about it. I'll give that much to you. Remember, unlike prior religions, we've got christianity coming in with a big-bad-mofo hand saying good is pretty damn awesome. Whatever evil power that satan has, it's only rudimentary. there is no kick-assery power like in the other "mythology" religions like some of my bible-belt friends like to call them. so the devil's power is subdued and he only tempts and his temptation is the suckage.

angelfromanotherpin · Thu Oct 02, 2008 10:32 pm

In the Jewish tradition, Satan is an angel who works for God, and has no power to act without God's permission. His task, as depicted in the book of Job, is to test those who would not otherwise have the opportunity to show their virtue, because virtue untested doesn't count.

But the culturally predominant version of Christianity's Satan is a horrible and incoherent mish-mash of the Jewish Satan, a few other Jewish angels, the Gnostic tradition's Lord of Matter, a metaphor for Rome, a variety of deities absorbed by early Christianity, and on and on and on. There is no more one definitive version of the christian Satan than there is one definitive version of Superman. There are only more and less compelling and coherent interpretations.

Dante's version of Satan is depicted as the exact opposite of God. While God is all-powerful, all-knowing, has perfect freedom, etc.; Satan is impotent, ignorant, and trapped. He is supposed to be a pitiful figure. While philosophically sound, he is (intentionally) boring and as a result has not really penetrated the cultural consciousness. People much prefer Milton's version, who is just so much sexier.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:08 am

Lago PARANOIA wrote:Actually, Satan's an incredible pussy when you think about it.

How many people did he personally kill in the Bible? Go on, I'm waiting.

I think it was around 3. Whereas God personally killed fluptillions of people on a whim.

I don't view this as "Satan is a pussy", more as "Satan isn't a batshit insane murderous bastard. Unlike God."

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 2:31 am

Satan kills Job's 10 children as part of a bet with YHWH. Those are his only killings in the bible. Satan is quite clearly the hero of that book, because YHWH is clearly an evil god. Unsurprising when you realize that he's the god of Gath.

-Username17

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:21 am

Bigode wrote:
A_Cynic wrote:I mean Buddhism doesn't seem to have one as far as I've seen.
Yeah, I've mostly failed to find one too. The closest I came's the old "don't envy the rich".

That's pretty much the fundamental principle of any religion. Basically they're smoke screens so that rich people don't get overrun by people and people can focus on other things other than how poor they are and how much their lives suck. Whether it's self enlightenment or "I have to get into heaven", religion is pretty much all about blinding the poor to how oppressed they are by the rich and powerful. It's really no surprise that the most religious people are the main suckers who vote Republican.

Absentminded_Wizard · Post by **Absentminded_Wizard** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:22 am

So that's why there are more diatribes against oppressing the poor in the OT than there are mentions of homosexuality. And why Jesus threw the moneychangers out of the Temple.

There is a lot of stuff about "turning the other cheek" etc., in the NT, but it also has that bit about how it's easier for camels to negotiate low ceilings than for rich people to get to heaven. The former has been used by a lot of people to advise complete nonresistance to all evil and oppression, but it's not the entirety of the religion.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:38 am

Actually, that is why. Recall that the original Christians were communists of the North Korean variety. Because riches were corrupt, you were supposed to give all of your riches away - to the people running the church. Those who lied about how much wealth they had in order to keep some for themselves were struck dead.

Acts 5:1 - 5:11 wrote:But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession,

And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles' feet.

But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land?

Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God.

And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things.

And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him.

And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in.

And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much.

Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out.

Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.

And great fear came upon all the church, and upon as many as heard these things.

You must submit to total taxation and control by the theocratic state or die.

-Username17

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:38 pm

Regarding Judas: I believe it was Jesus Christ Superstar that posited that Judas betrayed Jesus in order to force his hand...he wasy expecting JC to use his awesome, half-celestial powesrs to smite the crap out of the Romans, and figured having him arrested was the surest way to do that. Hell, I might commit suicide if I tried something like that and it backfired so spectacularly.

Isn't Satan , according to Christiantiy, supposed to be the polar opposite of the Archangel Michael, God's 2nd-in-command? I know I read that somewhere.

Oh, here's a website y'all might enjoy...a friend of mine wrote a book on the contraditions between Bible-reality and Reality-reality.

http://www.godvsthebible.com/book

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 4:09 pm

The Skeptic's Annotated Bible

-Username17

Bigode · Post by **Bigode** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 5:45 pm

RC: sure, hence why I tried to find something more specific than that, as did Cynic (really appropriate name for the discussion ...).

AW: "Poor rich, so burdened they are with their sins, what favor they're doing for us with their leadership! Why should we want to be like them?" And remember, if it was indeed a burden, the correct response would be "So others don't have to." (Much thanks to Caliborn, in case he's hearing.)

Talisman: interesting.

Frank: worth mentioning there're the Quran and Book of Mormon as well (page top).

---

BTW, since Maj once translated my username: is there anyone here who speaks Portuguese? I'm almost thinking seriously about translating a Bible satire (called "Jesus, whip me!" none the less) - the big thing, though, is that it'd have to be cut, because a lot of the jokes fail to make any sense to people who don't know life in Brazil in detail ... Haven't asked permission (what with not even having decided yet), but I figure a teaser won't do harm:

JACOB'S VISION IN BETEL (Stairway to Heaven)
And god's holiday ended. It was time already! Not that people missed: during his absence, things continued the same crap as ever. But the guy decided to come back, who's to stop him? Only God soon realized that one detail: Jacob was not a dumbass like his grandfather, Abraham. Realizing that only promising a large descent and the usual babble would fail to impress the guy, God thought, thought, did brainstorms with his team, commissioned studies and concluded that he would have to call for special effects.
The timing was perfect. Jacob left Beersheba on the way to Harran, in Mesopotamia, where his uncle Laban lived. At late afternoon in the first day of hiking, he decided to sleep and continue his journey at dawn. Picked a stone to serve as a pillow and slept. And dreamed of a ladder that was going from earth to heaven, and the angels up and down on it.
- Wow - Jacob thought - it seems like a Broadway stage!
- Holy crap - thought god - the bastard discovered. I have to keep wary with this guy.
God makes his best voice of thunder:
- Jacob! Hey, Jacob! He who speaks to you is Jehovah!
- Who?
- Jehovah! YHWH! The Lord of the Armies! The All-Powerful!
- Hm .. Never heard of it.
- Sonovabitch ... That sacrifice was the worst idea I ever had, Isaac was angry with me and didn't introduce me to you. I am the god of his grandfather, Abraham. I am here to renew the promise I made to him. His descendants will be many more than
the grains of sand in the beach! The entire earth will be blessed by your children! You will come back to this land, and it will be the land of your people. And I shall not leave until all these promises are fulfilled!
- Not even when I go to take a piss?
- You got the hang of it. Promise made. Bye.
God dropped out half-frustrated. Jacob apparently wasn't as impressed as desired. Jacob woke up and thought: "Damn, what was that? This place seems haunted! Who's that Jehovah? Well, maybe I should lick his boots a bit - who knows, maybe the business is all true. I have nothing to lose." He took the stone that was used as a pillow and put it on foot as a pillar. Then poured oil on the stone, dedicating it to the god whom he had just known.
And here comes again Jacob's cunning - look at the promise he made to the god:
- If you accompany me on this trip, and you give me water and food, and I get back safe in the good home of my father, then you will be my god.
God, so accustomed to be obeyed without questioning, was confused to take that reversal. It wasn't enough to say he was God, the one who ruled and overruled, that he had in his service coreograph angels from Broadway. With Jacob business would be much more difficult. The little vigarist bastard was treating him as if he was the genius of the lamp. For the first time in his life (if we can call it a life), God was seriously considering to retire.

Unfortunately, it's not one of the best; the best parts I can recall tend to be heavy with nigh- or actually untranslatable stuff. I also apologize for the haste if the result's crappy.

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 8:23 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:Satan kills Job's 10 children as part of a bet with YHWH. Those are his only killings in the bible. Satan is quite clearly the hero of that book, because YHWH is clearly an evil god. Unsurprising when you realize that he's the god of Gath.

-Username17

How exactly is it evil to make someone the richest and most prolific man for a large number of decades or possibly even a century or two; allow Satan to cause him pain and misery for what? a couple months? one month? a few weeks? when in your omniscience you know that this man will not only keep his faith and by the end of it gain greater wisdom, but also stand as an inspiring and cautionary tale for the rest of history? Not to mention restore the man(and his wife) to his former glory and bestow upon him twice what he once had for the next 140 years once his tribulation was over and he received his revelation?

What ridiculous spin could you possibly put on the story of Job to label God as evil?

Bigode: I'm not sure what I did, convince you of something with one of my disorganized rants I suppose or perhaps introduce you to goblinscomic(though I don't think I did), but you're welcome.

Maxus · Post by **Maxus** » Fri Oct 03, 2008 9:48 pm

Caliborn wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:Satan kills Job's 10 children as part of a bet with YHWH. Those are his only killings in the bible. Satan is quite clearly the hero of that book, because YHWH is clearly an evil god. Unsurprising when you realize that he's the god of Gath.

-Username17
How exactly is it evil to make someone the richest and most prolific man for a large number of decades or possibly even a century or two; allow Satan to cause him pain and misery for what? a couple months? one month? a few weeks? when in your omniscience you know that this man will not only keep his faith and by the end of it gain greater wisdom, but also stand as an inspiring and cautionary tale for the rest of history? Not to mention restore the man(and his wife) to his former glory and bestow upon him twice what he once had for the next 140 years once his tribulation was over and he received his revelation?

What ridiculous spin could you possibly put on the story of Job to label God as evil?

I always hated the story of Job, because it turned Job's family into...things that don't matter, just objects/treasures to be taken and away and then replaced because Job's been a good boy. If I remember right, they're all killed, but it's all right because Job proves his faith and he gets a new family, so everything's just hunky-dory.