[Class] The Defender

[Orion]

The Defender looks good to me for the 1-10 game. He's really very similar to a lot of fighters, and it's not as if he can't bring the damage. A Level 12 Human Defender could definitely have TWF, Blitz, and Murderous Intent while still having room for utility like Juggernaut and Ghost Hunter. His class features and bonus feats cover defenses a fighter might well have spent feats on anyway.

I do worry about him in the 10+ game though. From 11-14, the defender class features are pretty lackluster. IN that level group, Fighters get two feats (an extremely powerful benefit after level 11), Lunging attacks, but especially Array of Stunts.

An Extra Foil Action is better than more Aid Anothers, and the rest fo the defender abilities are not as good as feats.

11+ is also when magic-users go to crazytown, so I think a defender in that game might need a little love.

15+ the abilities are good, though nothing special compared to the monk's Perfect Mastery, the Fighter's 16 BAB benefits, or the Samurai's Iaijutsu Master. The question here is whether its enough for the sea of crazy that is endgame play, and I just don't have the experience to say.

I'd cautiously recommend stretching you 15-20 abilities downward to cover the 11-20 bracket.

[Manxome]

No, they get Forge Lore at 7; Foil is level 9.

You're right; my bad. OK, Defenders get Retailiatory Strike earlier than Fighters get Foil, and when Fighters get Foil, Defenders get Distracting Blows, which is perhaps less iconic, though tactically probably more similar (they both interrupt enemy actions). I no longer remember whether I got that mixed up while writing the Defender, or whether that was what I originally intended and I got confused when talking to you. Either way, my apologies.


So, shall we try to compare a Defender to that RoW Fighter build? I don't have access to source materials other than SRD and Tomes, and no practical experience at that level, but I'll parasite off the given build and see how far I can get.

The Defender is down 2 skill pts/level, which I imagine means we lose Diplomacy and Craft, because Diplomacy is cross-class for the Defender and we don't have Forge Lore.

The Fighter gets 6 bonus feats compared to the Defender getting only 3 with less choice (Danger Sense, Phalanx Fighter, and any one of the save-centric feats); that Fighter build happens to have Danger Sense and all 3 of the save feats, so we need to pick 4 of the Fighter's to give up. If we're trying to keep a similar build, I suspect we want to lose Horde Breaker, Great Fortitude, Iron Will, and Two-Weapon Fighting, but that last one would presumably require optimizing around some new two-handed weapon and I'm not sure what the net result would be, so possibly we lose Blitz instead. We may also prefer to keep Iron Will instead of Lightning Reflexes.

We also lose Problem Solver, which it looks like you're mainly noting for the SR from Mage Hunter (whereas the Defender gets better SR already) and for Ghost Hunter vs. incorporeal undead (but as you noted, golf bagging +1 ghost touch weapons is also possible).

As far as saves, the Defender takes Will as their Superior Save, and gets a +4 resistance bonus to saves. That doesn't stack with the cloak of resistance, but it's a larger bonus, so we're up 9000gp and a cloak slot--I'm not quite sure what that would best be used for, though I note that if you drop one of the +2 ioun stones as well you'd save enough money to replace one of the +4 items with a +6, which might be a good deal (if you did that to dex, I believe you're up +1 attack/trip, +1 damage, +1 AC, +1 ref save, and +1 will save--which are not included below).

The Defender then ends up with saves of 19/23/20 (or 19/20/23) vs. the Fighter's 21/22/18. Defender has higher min, max, and average saves, even before we consider Aura of Safety. The Defender also has 22 SR, compared to the Fighter's 17 (when using Mage Hunter), and the Defender's SR also extends to his allies (within 20'). Any enemy spells that do make it through also get their duration cut in half (Spell Stretch).

However, the Defender is down 12 HP and dies at -10 instead of -20, he loses the DR 5/-, he loses slippery mind, and he doesn't get dazed instead of stunned.

Offensively, the Defender doesn't have Combat Focus. He does Aid Another as an immediate, though, and if he uses that for an attack bonus it lasts for a round rather than one attack, and he can situationally apply it to whichever ally will gain the greatest benefit--probably not as good as rerolling one failed attack/turn, except in special circumstances (say, a very hard-to-hit foe, or an allied Samurai unloading all his attacks and AoOs against a single target), but probably still noticeable. If saves are more important, the Defender can use Aura of Safety, which will generally be better than the Fighter spending combat focus to reroll a save. The Defender's Aid Another can also be used for an AC bonus or various other effects (such as waking up a sleeping ally) that are not replicatable by combat focus, if the situation calls for it.

The Fighter also has Foil Action, which the Defender lacks, but the Defender can still try to interrupt opponents with Distracting Blows--notice that works on readied attacks as well as AoOs, so in some situations the Defender will be able to interrupt an enemy action of choice without sacrificing any actions to do it (whereas the Fighter is giving up one use of Combat Focus every time he uses Foil Action)--this could be used to cancel an enemy attack or stop a nearby foe from fleeing on his turn (and non-casters probably don't have max ranks in concentration). Distracting Blows also isn't restricted to melee, so the Defender can use it from beyond the Fighter's max Foil range if he really cares. Also, the Phalanx Fighter gives the Defender an AoO against enemy charges, which with Distracting Blows has a good chance of interrupting the charge.

The Fighter gets an extra 5' of reach, though the Defender can use reach weapons as non-reach weapons (part of Phalanx Fighter feat)--probably less valuable, but still adds some flexibility. Positional Advantage and Active Assault are pretty similar, as noted; Positional Advantage is more situational, but you can use it to push enemies away, push them into hazards, or shift allies out of range of enemy attacks.

The Defender also has a lower command rating, which I'm not sure how to evaluate.

On the plus side, the Defender can get extra AoOs from Retaliatory Strike and Aggressive Defense, can AoO while flat-footed (Phalanx Fighter) nullifies enemy flanking bonuses, and provides allies with 22 SR, spell stretch, uncanny dodge, any dodge bonuses to AC that the Defender receives, and occasionally with awesome saves (Aura of Safety).

Have I missed anything important?


I'm not sure what to make of that as a whole, but my amateur impressions are:

• Defender has better defenses against magic, and provides a bunch of defensive bonuses to his allies that the Fighter doesn't
• Fighter has cleave and higher max AoOs per round, but the Defender has more situations that allow him to take AoOs if he's fighting in a party
• Fighter has a bit more HP and DR
• Fighter's attacks are somewhat better overall (reach, Blitz)
• Fighter has Diplomacy and Craft

Qualitatively, it looks like the Fighter's got better damage output and the Defender has more tricks for keeping the party alive, which is about what I was aiming for. Not sure if it's balanced quantitatively, though.

[Bigode]

I ought to do a longer review later, but it's a testament to your skills that your first class came out this awesome. Noteworthy issues, though: I sorta agree attacking the defender isn't as obvious a choice as it should, and I'm a bit afraid that what the defender does with full-round actions might be somewhat repetitive. The suggestion for the first might be making some of the area effects be visibly obvious; as for options, maybe feats, maybe offensive abilties, but I do think something like JE's, both in kind ("more damage") and scale (a lot of it), might be both unneeded and a bit repetitive. I do prefer "Warped Reach" as a name, and think it seems clear enough. As for sorting things out, one thing that occurs to me, if you could, would be for each of us to do a blind level 15 Same Game Challenge - whaddya say?

[Maxus]

There's a problem with the classic same-game solo test--the Fighter's meant to work alone, and the Defender's meant to work with a group.
Why not make an iconic party of three other moderately effective people--a Rogue, a Cleric, and a Wizard--and see how the Fighter and Defender differ in working in the same group, against the same challenges?

Edit: Oh, wait, I forgot. The Wizard, if designed with care, would be much more likely to take everything out on his own.

[Manxome]

I've got no problem with adding visual effects to some of the Defender's abilities; one could also argue that Spell Static, Spell Snare, and perhaps Spell Mirror should be detectable with a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) check or something. Enemy fighters wouldn't reasonably have trouble figuring out what was going on when the Defender uses Uncanny Rescue to save an ally or Retaliatory Strike to gain an AoO against them, so it seems reasonable to me that an enemy caster should at least know what happened after his spell gets eaten by Spell Static (and who's responsible).

While I like the Same Game Challenge as a design tool, I'm not sure I have enough knowledge of high-level monsters and tactics to be a valuable participant (I'd be highly appreciative if someone else wants to run it, though, or maybe point me in the right direction). To get a truly representative picture of the Defender, you'd also probably have to make some allowances for the fact that several of his abilities are more valuable in a group than solo; maybe allow his Aid Another to apply to himself, or similar measures.


EDIT: No complaints about the modified Spell Static and Spell Snare, so I'm editing them into the original post.

[Bigode]

My personal opinion would be actually to just let the defender get away with a somewhat worse performance than normal - for being a force multiplier; I'm afraid making a party has its problems, as you say, but maybe we might consider it.

As for your experience: I'd actually like to see what you'd come out with on your own. I'm no expert at it, but I've done it before (which might make me better at it); it'd be good to see what someone better than me would turn out, but we can just post and compare results.

[Manxome]

Well, at a minimum, I'm going to have trouble finding appropriate equipment and monster stats. The SRD doesn't even appear to have a wealth-by-level table (at least, not that I can find) and I don't actually own any sourcebooks.

[Orion]

Actually, I have no problem with enemies preferring to target squishier characters. I *like* the idea of a Defender perpetually running around trying to save his allies from the monsters more than one who simply stands in place and waits for monsters to come to him.

[Judging__Eagle]

Actually, I have no problem with enemies preferring to target squishier characters. I *like* the idea of a Defender perpetually running around trying to save his allies from the monsters more than one who simply stands in place and waits for monsters to come to him.

Honestly, that's exactly my problem.

In a game with even the slightest bit of aggression on the part of the monsters (aka, a DM who has brutes act like brutes and attack the nearest or most damaging threat and more intelligent creatures attack enemies that are either in their way or are a real threat to their overall safety), then the Defender will be ignored.

Seriously, what do a 3 kobolds/goblins/stirges care about the armoured guy if they can kill the squishy people not wearing armour first? The Orcs might go after the Defender 1st, but that's b/c they're both stupid and 'brave'.

In a more challenging encounter (say... at lvl 4 this 'party' has to wipe out a gang of minotaurs (4)), how does the Defender ensure that enemies will want to target him first or remain attacking him?

Because I've done fights like that. 7 lvl 4 PCs and one lvl 5 versus 8 Wood Woads (CR 4; MM3) and 2 Woodling monitor lizards (CR 4; MM3) that summoned more than 1 crocodile per lizard (CR 2 each, they summoned... 4 i think).

The monk set off some summoning traps which is why we faced them all at once. No one died, but it was a near thing; the Bard in the party acting like a Barbarian nearly got him killed, the monk was impossible to hit for the monsters (AC, speed and his ability to jump over them) and did tons of Con and Speed damage over the course of the fight, the 'fighter' sort of forgot all of his combat feats and he and the cleric had one or two Wood Woads tied up. My Barbarian (who had been doing some solo adventures and was lvl 5, so he had fast healing 5) got downed after killing the crocodiles and a woodling lizard on his own, lay on the ground to get up to 4 or 6 HP and went back into the fray to clear the room that he had fallen down (there was a woodling monitor lizard in the room still and a Wood Woad at the entrance to the room) in and then ran out to help the monk and then move to help the fighter and cleric deal with the wood woad they were still fighting.

Sometimes there are fights that leave you wondering if you'll make it out alive or not. Honestly, they're the best ones, because you remember them later on.

[Bigode]

JE, the largest paragraph in your latest post's of no help at all. And, unlike admittedly a lot of your stories, it wasn't even interesting. Something to consider, I think.

Manxome: wealth for level 5 = 9,000; for 10 = 49,000; for 15 = 200,000. But I remembered most of the level 15 SGC opponents are off-SRD. Might try it at 10, then.

Boolean: I have no problem with someone running around trying to protect people instead of changing targetting priorities, but that one should be a lot better at ... running.

[Manxome]

OK. We using RoW armor and shields, and if so, how much do they cost? Are we using anything from the Book of Gears? (I'd have to re-read it, don't remember much except that it wasn't finished.)

This was the first EL 10 Same Game encounter list I found...

A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer.
6 Trolls.
A horde of Shadows.

SRD doesn't seem to have info on mind flayers or necromancers (unless the "Evil Necromancer" is just a level 10 wizard specialized in necromancy who happens to be evil-aligned), and the Blue Dragon listing doesn't actually seem to specify its attacks and damage.

I'd also need some more information on what "a hallway filled with magical runes" would be like, and I'm not sure how many Shadows are in "a horde" (though I imagine it's around 10-12 and the precise number probably isn't important).

[Cynic]

OK. We using RoW armor and shields, and if so, how much do they cost? Are we using anything from the Book of Gears? (I'd have to re-read it, don't remember much except that it wasn't finished.)

This was the first EL 10 Same Game encounter list I found...

A hallway filled with magical runes.
A Fire Giant.
A Young Blue Dragon.
A Bebilith.
A Vrock.
A tag team of Mind Flayers.
An Evil Necromancer.
6 Trolls.
A horde of Shadows.

SRD doesn't seem to have info on mind flayers or necromancers (unless the "Evil Necromancer" is just a level 10 wizard specialized in
necromancy who happens to be evil-aligned), and the Blue Dragon listing doesn't actually seem to specify its attacks and damage.

I'd also need some more information on what "a hallway filled with magical runes" would be like, and I'm not sure how many Shadows are in "a horde" (though I imagine it's around 10-12 and the precise number probably isn't important).

A hallway of runes is just a hallway with permanencied (optional, I suppose) symbols of death, pain, fear, blah blah blah. Vary the triggers.

A horde of Shadows.... srd says that they go in swarms of 6-11. A swarm of 11 can count as a horde I suppose and that seems to be an equivalent encounter for the party at the level.

Yeah, necromancer is just a wizard or a cleric specialized in necromancy.

[Manxome]

OK, this maybe isn't what Bigode had in mind, but I've already typed it up, so here it is...

Same Game Challenge, level 10, with a Defender:

Human Defender 10
Assets: Elite stat array (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8, +2 boosts for levels 4 & 8 ), 49,000gp, SRD items + RoW armor, shields, and bows, no wishes (and no single item worth more than 15,000 gp)
Assumptions: RoW armors are not more expensive than twice the most expensive SRD standard armor in same weight class

Attributes: 14 STR, 18 DEX, 16 CON, 10 INT, 8 WIS, 12 CHA
HD: 10d10 + 30 (85 hp)
Initiative: +7 (4 DEX + 3 Danger Sense)
Speed: 30 ft., fly 90 ft. (good) (Sun Plate)
AC: 32, touch 15, flat-footed 28
Saves: Fort +14, Ref +18, Will +17
Spell Resistance: 20 (Spell Static)

BAB: 10
Melee Attack: Spiked Chain +17/+12 (2d4+6 + 1d6 fire), threatens 5' and 10', forces Fort Save (DC 17) or dazed for 1 round
Ranged Attack: Composite Longbow +15/+10 (1d8+3), range incr 110' (+3 attack within 30', +10 damage within 110')


Skills: 5 pts/level

• Bluff (+14)
• Intimidate (+14)
• Spot (+12)
• Listen (+12)
• Sense Motive (+12)
• (Armor Check Penalty: -20)
• (Armor Stealth Penalty: -10)

Feats:

• Danger Sense (Defender 3)
• Lightning Reflexes (Defender 8 )
• Weapon Finesse (lvl 1)
• Whirlwind (lvl 3)
• Combat School: reach weapons (lvl 6)
• Point Blank Shot (lvl 9)
• ??? <not used> (human)

Equipment:

• +1 Flaming Adamantine Spiked Chain (11,025 gp)
• +1 Composite Longbow (2400 gp)
• 100 Arrows (5 gp)
• 20 Adamantine Arrows (2402 gp)
• +3 Sun Plate (assumed 3000 gp base + 9000 gp enchant)
• +1 Animated Tower Shield (9030 gp)
• Gloves of Dexterity +2 (4000 gp)
• Amulet of Health +2 (4000 gp)
• Ring of Protection +1 (2000 gp)
• 2138 gp left for potions, tools, etc.

AC Breakdown:
10
4 DEX
9 armor (Sun Plate)
3 armor enhancement
4 shield (Tower Shield)
1 shield enhancement
1 deflection (Ring of Protection)
= 32 AC (15 touch, 28 flat-footed)
(can optionally claim cover from tower shield, but -2 to attacks)

Note: One feat hasn't been selected, but if there are no inspired ideas, elusive target (+2 AC) or great fortitude (+3 fort save and +10 HP) might be reasonable

Challenge: A hallway filled with magical runes

I don't think there's any way for our hero to detect this trap other than to trigger it or see it (and some of the runes will probably trigger upon being seen).

All the "symbol" spells I found allow spell resistance and some kind of save to negate. The DC for a magic trap is 10 + 1.5*spell level, symbols seem to range in level from 5 to 8, so we're looking at DCs from 17 to 22, and probably caster levels up to 15. Thus, the Defender's odds of resisting the symbols range from 72% (DC 22 Fort, CL 15) to 100% (DC 17 Will). Some symbols won't cause serious damage even if they succeed (he's immune to fear and sleep; symbol of stunning doesn't seem to be much of a threat *if* it's the only thing that hits you), but if we're unfortunate we may set off several symbols at once.

If our hero survives the detection of the trap (and realizes approximately what's going on), his strategy will be to activate Aura of Safety and then take flying run actions to move through the hallway at 270 ft/round (renewing Aura of Safety every round until he makes it past; he's got 6 uses/day). If we're meta-gaming and have open die rolls, we may wait one or two rounds if the first roll or two for Aura of Safety is really bad.

Any round when Aura of Safety rolls a 4+ (85% chance), the Defender automatically makes the save for every symbol he sets off up to and including level 8. Even on a natural 1, he beats everything spell level 6 or below, and still gets regular saves plus SR on the harder ones. Plus, he's flying, so he won't set off any symbols that activate on touch.

Of course, if any symbols activate and make it past his defenses while he's IN the hallway, it's pretty much game over.

Result: maybe 50/50 odds of making it through


Challenge: Fire Giant

Our hero can probably kite it. If he can fly above it, that would certainly help, but merely having a 90' speed is good enough even if he has to stay at ground level (due to a ceiling or something), as long as there's room to maneuver.

The Defender stays 105 feet away from the giant (even if he surprises us with a full attack, there's almost no chance of losing the first round, and we can use a withdraw action to get this far away without provoking AoOs). This is within the first range increment of his bow, and his first attack hits on 8+ for 1d8+13 damage, so we can expect to kill him in 12-14 rounds unless he can come up with something to do about it.

If the Fire Giant throws rocks, he gets one attack per round. This attack only hits on a natural 20, but that doesn't even matter, because the animated tower shield automatically negates one ranged attack per round. So our hero is pretty safe there.

If the Fire Giant decides to try and close, he can take a run action and move--90 feet per round. That leaves him 15 feet away, just outside his reach. The Defender then moves 90 feet away with a move action and shoots the giant again. If the giant runs away, same result. He could theoretically remove his armor and thus run at 160 feet/round, but this just requires the Defender to withdraw on alternate rounds (using Positional Advantage first if the giant closes to 5'), and then the extra damage the Defender does from power attack will mean the fight still ends about as quickly.


If for some reason our hero can't fly around (trapped in a closet, needs to defend a point, etc.), then things look a bit grimmer. If both combatants stand still and full attack each other, the Defender inflicts about 14.5 damage and the giant inflicts 19.5. The Defender will daze the giant about 12% of the time, but that's still a definitive loss.

If the Defender instead readies a single attack each round to interrupt the giant's first attack, that brings the exchange closer to (lots of rounding) 8.7 (by the Defender) vs. 8.4 (by the giant) damage per round. That's better, but the giant's got two thirds more HP, so that's still almost certainly a loss.

Result (flying around): certain win
Result (toe-to-toe): near-certain loss


Challenge: Young Blue Dragon

The save against the dragon's breath attack is an auto-success, and our hero has evasion, so that's out. The dragon isn't old enough to have any spell-likes besides create water. If it wants to melee, the Defender will accept a -2 attack to claim cover from his shield, which means the dragon will only hit on a natural 20, while the Defender's first attack still hits on a 6+, and he probably does more damage per hit (I can't actually find anything that lists dragons' attacks and damage, but even 2d8 + 1.5xSTR would be weaker).

Additionally, the Defender has reach, while the dragon doesn't--and if they start adjacent, the Defender can full attack and still put 10' between them every round (Positional Advantage is a guaranteed hit that doesn't provoke an AoO, then he takes a 5' step).

If the dragon finds something tricky to do with its burrow speed, the Defender can hover in air, but it's probably not necessary. The dragon has more HP, but only by 20%--that's nowhere close to the difference in damage even if the dragon full attacks and the Defender only takes his first. Plus, the dragon will fail about a third of its fort saves against the daze effect, and Concentration is not a class skill for it, so the Defender can probably interrupt it if we really care.

The dragon does have a slight advantage in opposed grapple checks (+3) and the Edge (they both have the Edge), and it could possibly try to disarm the Defender or something, but I think this is probably a pretty reliable win for the Defender.

Result: near-certain win


Challenge: Bebilith

This has a climb speed and a web attack, but the web only goes 30' (and the tower shield auto-negates one ranged attack per round), so if our hero can fly a little ways away from any surfaces it can climb on, it can't hurt him. He'll have some trouble overcoming its DR, but it's an evil outsider, so it takes 1d6 light damage very round it's within 60' of his Sun Plate, so as long as it can't hurt him, he doesn't even need to attack to kill it. And if there's a ceiling, the Defender can still probably use the same tactics as described for the Fire Giant.

If for some reason our hero can't fly around (trapped in a closet, needs to defend a point, etc.), things get more dicey. However, the bebilith is 2 sizes larger than the Defender, so the tower shield also negates its bite, leaving it with only its claws. Those hit on a 19+ (17+ if it uses them in a charge, though that's not its default tactic), but our hero will claim cover from his tower shield so they only hit on a 20+. So if it full attacks, it averages almost 1 damage/round, so it'll have our hero about half dead by the time the light damage kills us if the Defender doesn't even attack. So the Defender slowly whittles away at it, or maybe performs a "grab on" maneuver to make it waste attacks trying to shake him off (Defender has the Edge, so it can't attack him at all while he's grabbed on).

If the Bebilith manages to hit with both its claws in a single round, it can rend the Defender's armor, which would be bad, but that's a 1-in-400 chance. So I feel pretty good about declaring this in the Defender's favor.

Result: near-certain win


Challenge: Vrock

The Vrock can't do much from a distance. It could use telekinesis to violent thrust a bunch of objects at him, if there are suitable objects nearby, but it needs a 19+ to hit with each (20+ if the Defender claims cover) and the tower shield automatically blocks one each round, so that's not going anywhere fast, and the Defender can auto-succeed on his will save if targeted directly.

And our hero's fly speed is faster and his maneuverability is better, so we'd like to say he can just pelt it with arrows until it dies, but the Vrock can greater teleport at will, and I can't find anything limiting its accuracy, so I think it's safe to say it can get into melee range if it really cares.

It's also got heroism 1/day, which lasts as long as we care about, and mirror image, which it'll presumably use if it gets the chance. And it'll make 90% of its fort saves vs. dazing and almost all of its concentration checks (since it actually has the skill, plus DR).

However, if the Defender claims cover, the Vrock's first attack only hits on a 19+ (even with heroism). It's got more attacks than the Bebilith, and its bite can't be negated (too small), so its full attack is doing a whopping 2.8 damage/round. But then it releases spores, which do a guaranteed 1d8 damage and then 1d4/round for 10 rounds. And it releases them as a free action every 3 rounds. It's not clear to me whether they stack, but even if they don't, that's an average of 3.2 damage/round, which is more than the thing's full attack. And I don't see any possible way to prevent or negate that. So if we let it full attack, it can kill the Defender in about 14 rounds.

Now, it's an evil outsider, so it's taking 1d6 light damage/round just from the Sun Plate. With full attacks, the defender can do on the order of 8 damage/round, but some of its attacks will be negated by mirror images; if we figure that the Vrock won't break off to recast it, it's got about 6 images, all of which the Defender hits on a natural 1, so that negates 3 rounds of attacks (or possibly less than 1, if a whirlwind hits and dispels them all). The Defender can therefore kill it in 9-10 rounds, which will leave him infected with residual spores from round 9 that will leave him with slightly above 0 HP when they wear off, assuming average damage. But if he drinks a couple potions of cure light wounds he'll probably survive.

Contrariwise, if the Vrock uses hit-and-run tactics and lets the Defender suffer from the spores, he'll get some AoOs when it breaks off from melee, but that probably still shifts the damage ratio in the Vrock's favor (though it loses some on the rounds it re-engages, since even a dive attack won't do as much as a full attack).

So...the Defender might win. Depends on tactics, luck, and whether or not spores stack with themselves for damage.

Result: possible win
EDIT: Aw, dangit, I just realized I neglected the Vrock's fire resistance. So maybe this is just a loss. To tired to redo analysis now.


Challenge: a tag team of Mind Flayers

I do not have stats for this monster.

Result: unknown


Challenge: an evil necromancer

This one's hard to evaluate, because I'm not sure what tactics and spells to expect the necromancer to use, and what kind of undead support to expect him to already have. But I'll note the following:

Unless the necromancer found a better way to maximize his main stat than I did for this build, his DCs probably don't exceed 21, even with +2 DC from racial bonuses and/or feats, so the Defender is going to make most of them (nearly all of them on the rounds he uses Aura of Safety, which probably begin as soon as he realizes he's fighting a level-appropriate caster). And that's before even considering the 20 SR. The Defender also cannot be fatigued, which looks like one of the iconic afflictions caused by necromancy.

The necro probably has no trouble hitting the Defender's touch AC, but the tower shield's ability to negate one ranged attack/round works on magic rays, so he'll need to use melee touch attacks or multiple spells per round to make that work.

Once the necro is in melee with the Defender, getting out will be hard. The Defender threatens at 5' and 10', so a 5' step won't cut it, and you'd ordinarily be looking at two AoOs, each of which requires a concentration check if it hits. The necro has max ranks, of course, but that's still probably only a +16 mod or so, and the DC is 10 + damage dealt, which will typically be around 26 (more on a power attack), so there's still a significant chance of failure. DC 26. Of course, the necro can cast defensively with near-certain success, so he may try to teleport out, or just decide to stay in range and suffer full attacks.

Also, any undead the necro happens to have will be suffering 1d6 light damage/round while within 60 feet of the Defender. If there's anything really bad, the Defender can still fly, so it'll need flight or a good ranged attack to do more than keep the Defender out of melee with the necro. The Defender's bow even does about the same damage as his chain, as long as he's within the first range increment (110 feet), and it's more accurate than the chain within 30 feet.

So I don't have a real clear idea how this is going to go, but I suspect it's going to involve the Defender completely resisting many of the necromancer's spells in a row and a failed attempt by the necromancer to stay away from the Defender. So I'm cautiously optimistic.

Result: unsure, but cautiously optimistic


Challenge: 6 Trolls

The most likely tactic of a gang of trolls will be to surround the Defender and full attack a lot. They only hit on natural 20s, so that generates about 8 damage/round, assuming they don't pull off a rend (hit with both claws in one round).

With the spiked chain, the Defender's reach is as long as theirs, so this allows him to whirlwind attack and hit them all at once. His attack is +17 and their AC is 16, so he probably trades around 7 points of attack into 14 damage with power attack, resulting in around 30 damage/hit with 75% accuracy (22.5 damage/round). Of course, most of that is nonlethal damage that the trolls regenerate at the rate of 5/round, but they've only got 63 hp, so they're at least unconscious in about 4 rounds, while the Defender will likely have more than half his health left. Then he just continues whirlwind attacking to keep them unconscious until the 1d6 fire damage/hit builds up enough lethal damage to actually kill them.

If the fight takes place in a tight area and not all the trolls can reach him at once, that's fine--each individual troll still only gets to be in range for 4 rounds before its unconscious, so they rack up the same total damage.

In order for the trolls to improve the damage ratio, they'd need to somehow shuffle around in such a way that they all get to full attack, but the Defender's whirlwind doesn't hit all of them. And they'd need to get the average number of trolls it hits down to about two. I doubt that's even possible without highly favorable terrain, and trolls have 6 INT, so they probably wouldn't do it even if it was possible.

Result: near-certain win


Challenge: a horde of Shadows

These hit almost half the time, and our hero can only tank about 4 touches before he's spawn. They can only attack from 5' away, but they can fly with good maneuverability.

However, our hero's fly speed isn't merely faster, it's more than double their fly speed. So as long as there's plenty of space to fly around, he can hang out a bit outside their charge range and pelt them with arrows. There's a 50% miss chance due to incorporeality, but no miss chance due to AC, and one hit pretty much kills a shadow, so he's not likely to run out of arrows.

The Shadows will only be able to get within range by taking a run action, which will leave them threatening the Defender, but unable to attack that turn. The Defender can withdraw, moving 180' away (longer than their run distance of 160') without provoking an AoO--and it'll be very hard for them to box him in, given his speed and three dimensions to work with.

Additionally, the shadows are taking 1d6 light damage/round while within 60' of our hero's Sun Plate, which should kill them in about 6 rounds even if he doesn't manage to hit them with an arrow.

However, if our hero gets ambushed, or for some reason can't fly around (trapped in a closet, needs to defend a point, etc.), then he's pretty much dead. He can possibly take a couple AoOs as they close (only one of which will hit), and if he's lucky enough to survive a round he can whirlwind and kill half of them, but it only takes about 9 attacks to finish him off, and there's no way he can avoid taking that many if he's standing still.

Result (flying around): certain win
Result (toe-to-toe): certain loss



Overall Results:
The Defender won most of those. Even if you count the ones I couldn't fully analyze and the ones where he loses if he can't fly around all as losses, he still seems to be winning nearly 50%. If anything, looks like he's probably overpowered at 10, unless I messed something up (or my equipment was unfair).

[Bigode]

As I said, I'm not analyzing each fight for now. But there's a dirty little secret: it's likely that all Tome-level-classed characters go somewhat over 50/50 if built and played decently, so there might not be a problem ...

[Manxome]

Must have been more tired than I thought when I wrote that. Looks like I wrote down the wrong Will save, too (should be +15 instead of +17), though that last feat could be spent on Iron Will if we really care.

And any places I neglected fire resistance, the Defender probably just switches to his bow (provoking no AoOs due to Point-Blank Shot), so it probably doesn't make a big difference.

[Manxome]

Addendum: got the mindflayer stats.

OK, so mindflayers have a bunch of psionic abilities, but none of them can punch through our hero's saves and SR with a probability greater than 1 in 40 (and that drops to zero on rounds he uses Aura of Safety). If they get lucky and mindblast him, they might well suck out his brain before he recovers, but even with the Defender stunned, the mindflayers only have a 15% chance to hit (5% if he can claim cover from the animated tower shield while stunned, which seems to be allowed) and a 30% chance to win a grapple test, and it looks like one would need to hit and then win two grapple checks in order to pull that off.

For his part, the Defender can move farther than mind blast range on a single move action, and if his first attack each round is a PA for 5, he still hits 90% of the time and takes off half a mindflayer's HP per hit. And this leaves the unfortunate mindflayer 10' inside the Defender's reach and with a concentration bonus too small to reliably avoid interruption from Distracting Blows.

Result: probable win

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Hey. I just read this thread, and I have some constructive criticism.

First off, the following abilities: Aura of Safety (30ft to 60 ft to 120 ft), Spell Static (10ft to 20 ft to 40 ft), and Spell Stretch (20 ft) are a pain. Now, when considered within the context of a video game, these abilities might be translated and implemented well. Within the framework of a tabletop role-playing game, these abilities are a pain in the ass.

Here are some reasons why:
1. These abilities have different effective ranges which fluctuate over different levels. The other players are not going to remember how many feet away they need to be for all of these auras to take effect.
2. As a result of the aforementioned, you will constantly be interrupting people's turns and reminding them of your effects (Spell Stretch especially, and the class generally).

3. Not only that, but probably every character will be moving and fighting/casting spells, and they will count out how many squares distant they are from the Defender every round. That will get insanely tedious. I imagine PL's head would explode.
4. The effect I term "Fireball Formation." There are innumerable AoE abilities in the game, and a valid counter-tactic is to spread your group out and mislead the enemies about which groups are good targets. For example, the group might all have Hats of Disguise on, be spread out, and have two people grouped together (The Monk and Rogue) who are disguised as lumbering plate-wearing Clerics. This simple tactic, and others, negates many aspects of the Defender.

Fixes: The best thing you could do is have "Bonded Charges" which the Defender attunes himself to. There is no range that needs to be counted (maybe one mile or whatever). That way, you tell every player what you are granting them, and they don't have to deal with some of the problems I named. Now, you will probably have to rebalance some abilities, and have a progression of how many allies you can affect as you level up (good place for opportunity choices for your wardings).

---

Next...well. Dnd 3.x has fundamental problems with abilities going off the Random Number Generator (rng). It is so divergent that any particular party facing any particular monster might auto-fail or auto-pass an effect. Different characters in the same party can have differences in saving throws of more than +20. The only way to fix this (other than rewriting the system) is for the Dm to customize monsters and keep his Pc's saving throws tight.

That said, many of the Defenders abilities are Rng abilities. He is contributing by pushing people off the dice. He only survives many of the challenges because his numbers are big.
...
Now...you will have to decide how relevant this is. Some builds of a lower level than your example character can do 1,000+ damage a round with a crazy attack bonus that hits on a 2 vs anything. These builds would win most if not every challenge without effort. I don't consider that to be a valid test of a character's abilities however. He can only charge (or whatever).

Many (most?) Dm's will adjust their monsters numbers according to the Pc's. A badass monster might need to roll a 5+, while a mook would need to roll a 15+ to affect the party. If we assume this to be the case, then the Defender would fail many of the challenges. Now, a counterargument to that necessitates that we alter the numbers for the other classes in order to assess balance. That is valid. However, if we just assume that everyone has a 50/50 shot to affect everyone else with any ability, the spellcasting classes and Tome melee class hold up pretty well. The Defender does not.

---

Lastly, Distracting Blows is straight up a bullshit ability. It has a concentration check to avoid, which in other words means that this ability grants a saving throw only to people who have that save (ranks in concentration). Casters and the like get a save, other people don't (Rng problems, especially bad at higher levels) Just give it a Fort save.

If any of that was helpful, I could add more.

[Manxome]

It was certainly interesting feedback, though I'm not sure yet that I agree with all of it.

I understand the desire to keep people on the RNG, but if we're not taking the numbers seriously, doesn't the entire game unravel on first principles? I mean, if we just assume that all random effects are 50/50 that leads to crazy conclusions like "always power attack for maximum" and that you should never choose any of the effects that boost attack, AC, or saves (which are all over the place, even in the Tomes). It also means that anyone with any kind of save-or-die has a 50% chance to win on his first turn, which suggests that you pretty much automatically go 50/50 on the Same Game Challenge no matter what else you have (or don't).

By level 10, the Tome Barbarian has some immunities while raging and a save-or-be-stunned on his attacks, but everything else I see is numerical changes to his speed, damage, AC, saves, DR, etc. What does he do in the Same Game Challenge that makes his win more valid than your build that does 1000 damage/round? (I'd be interested in hearing the details of that build at some point, by the way.) What does a Fighter or Samurai do, for that matter?

But perhaps more to the point, you can't have a character whose schtick is to mess up enemy attacks unless you presume he is actually allowed to reduce their success rate or make them less effective somehow. I could hand out arbitrary immunities to enough stuff that half the EL10 encounters can't hurt you and the other half just kill you, but that's clearly stupid. I'm already giving the Defender lots of stuff that behaves more like rerolls rather than simply pushing the RNG (Aura of Safety, SR, Distracting Blows all have effectiveness that is independent of the current AC or saves of the ally you're protecting). What would you consider a "fair" way to improve defenses?


Your point about Distracting Blows sounds pretty reasonable; I think I'd lean more towards making it a Will save, though, since it is actually intended to be better against enemy bruisers than enemy casters (casters already being hosed by Aura of Safety and Spell Static and also relying on abilities that can probably already be interrupted).

The ranges...I don't know. I could certainly see trying to unify them more so you don't need to keep track of as many separate things, but "bonded charges" seem pretty complicated in their own right (you need to worry about moving bonuses around, unless your limit is high enough to just bond your whole party) and they remove some tactical considerations and trade-offs (Do you put yourself in harm's way to protect your allies? Do you hold back and sacrifice offensive potential to make sure back-row allies are still protected?)


Thanks for your input, though, and I'll continue mulling stuff over...

[SphereOfFeetMan]

About the Rng:

I’m not saying that the game should be played so that every ability functions 50% of the time. I’m saying that if you want to judge the worth or utility of a particular class's abilities (what he can do, or prevent others from doing), you will not get good results by using examples where your character is off the dice. You are correct when you say "...which suggests that you pretty much automatically go 50/50 on the Same Game Challenge no matter what else you have (or don't)."

The point I was trying to get across was that the Defender does not even win 50% of the time when you assume that his effects function half the time, and the monsters effects function half the time.

I have a definite bias here, so perhaps I should make that more explicit. Yes, you can make a balanced game comparatively easily by focusing on the numbers. Class A adds +2/+4/+10 to X/Y/Z in situations 1/2/3, etc, etc. You could do that for every class. You could make a game as complicated as 3e using those design guidelines, within the confines of a real-world medieval knights combat setting. You could also use that complicated design effort to create rules for fantastic effects like: illusions, divinations, basic combat mechanics, summonings, enchantments, etc. If you want the Defender to be designed, used, and judged under the parameters of numbers, then there is not much I can contribute.

---

As for the game unraveling on first principles...consider the following situation, Character Level 3:
Character A: An Orc Fighter 3 with a 1 Wisdom. He has a will save of -4.
Character B: A venerable (+3 Cha), magic blooded* (+2 Cha), Cha-elf** (+2 Cha), Paladin 2/Marshal* 1 with the Force of Personality feat* (Adds Cha to will saves instead of Wisdom). The Marshal has the Force of Will minor aura (adds Cha mod to will saves). He started with an 18 Cha (goes to 25).

*Non-Phb
**Whichever subrace of elf that is, I forget atm.

So his Will save at level 2 is:
Base 2
Divine Grace 7
Force of Personality 7
Force of Will 7
For a total of: +23 to his will save at level 3.

That means that those two characters have a difference in Will saves of 27 points. They are almost half again off the dice, at only level 3. This is an extreme example, but it highlights how divergent Dnd 3.x is, and it gets exponentially worse as you get to higher levels.

Yes, you are correct when you say there are things which boost the numbers in the game "all over the place." In my opinion this is a bad thing (for the most part) not only because it causes complexity where you could use that complexity in other areas (as I noted above). It also creates synergies which some characters have and some don't.

I draw the line for Rng abilities at tactical positioning. Flanking, higher ground, prone, etc. All these bonuses/penalties add strategic depth, and are very simple and quick to adjudicate. Your Defender does not fall into this category. I don't know if you have heard Dnd stories about players always forgetting to add their bonuses in. The Dodge feat, the Cleric casting Bless, etc. etc. Your Defender just adds to all these "problems."

One of my personal design goals is to incorporate as much Rng stuff into the level and class system as possible, and to restrict class abilities/feats/spells/etc to effects which actually do something.

---

On the Tome Barbarian vs the 1,000+ Dmg, hits on a 2+ builds:

The Tome Barbarian was designed and intended to be a very easy to play, yet effective class. It is meant to be given to new players, or those in a "beer and pretzels" game. As a result it can be forgiven for being simple. Additionally, the Tome feats make for a much more interesting character.

As for the 1,000+ damage a round builds, it is relevant because it hits on a 2+, and it can do nothing else. Yes, it wins more than 50% of the time. But is it good? (interesting, fun, tactical, etc). No.

Right now you are defining the Defender's class abilities against the Barbarians numerical progression. I think it would be much better if you defined it against: when to Rage and when to Fast Heal, who to stun, how to Command his followers, who to catch in his antimagic field, who to Disjoin, how to use his feats.

---

But perhaps more to the point, you can't have a character whose schtick is to mess up enemy attacks unless you presume he is actually allowed to reduce their success rate or make them less effective somehow....What would you consider a "fair" way to improve defenses?

The Defender's abilities are mostly Immediate/Swift. From this point I would give him several standard action abilities which impede his enemies or bolster his allies. He would then be forced to choose which to use each round. For example:

Prescient Warning (Sp): The Defender uses his mastered knowledge of battlefield tactics to protect his allies. Any particular Defender might use this ability in any number of ways: yelling warnings to his allies of an incoming blow, Roaring insults at his enemies at a critical time to distract them, or even intimidating his enemies with his frightful appearance. The effect is the same. The Defender chooses a number of allies equal to 1 per X number of Defender levels, and they are considered to be under the effects of the Sanctuary spell. If an attack is prevented by this ability, the attacker automatically knows it was foiled by the Defender (by his warning to his ally, distracting insult, etc.). The Defender can use this every round, effectively refreshing this effect. The Prescient Warning can be negated by forcing the Defender to fail a concentration check with damage (Dc is 10+damage dealt). The Defender cannot target himself with this ability.

You could go different ways with this. You could advance this to Greater Sanctuary (affected allies can still attack). You could have different versions which block only one of following: melee, ranged, spells, etc. So if you were fighting a mixed group of melee and ranged, you would have opportunity choice, etc.

[Manxome]

The Defender's abilities are mostly Immediate/Swift. From this point I would give him several standard action abilities which impede his enemies or bolster his allies. He would then be forced to choose which to use each round. For example:

Prescient Warning (Sp): The Defender uses his mastered knowledge of battlefield tactics to protect his allies. Any particular Defender might use this ability in any number of ways: yelling warnings to his allies of an incoming blow, Roaring insults at his enemies at a critical time to distract them, or even intimidating his enemies with his frightful appearance. The effect is the same. The Defender chooses a number of allies equal to 1 per X number of Defender levels, and they are considered to be under the effects of the Sanctuary spell. If an attack is prevented by this ability, the attacker automatically knows it was foiled by the Defender (by his warning to his ally, distracting insult, etc.). The Defender can use this every round, effectively refreshing this effect. The Prescient Warning can be negated by forcing the Defender to fail a concentration check with damage (Dc is 10+damage dealt). The Defender cannot target himself with this ability.

...ick.

So, first off, you never actually specified what action the Defender takes to use this ability, but based on the context I assume you meant it to be a standard action.

OK, so you have to keep track of which allies the Defender has selected to be under the effects of this ability, which can change every round. You have to keep track of which of the affected allies have made attacks since the Defender used this ability and nullified their protection. You also need to keep track of which enemies have tried to attack which warded allies, and whether they passed their Will save or not, for each (enemy, ally) pair of creatures.

I can see how you think this will be much easier, logistically, than the Defender's other abilities.

And isn't the party just going to synchronize their initiative counts so that each of the affected allies can attack (breaking the effect) just an instant before the Defender renews the effect? So now we're playing games with delayed actions and readied attacks and so forth as his allies try to exploit this ability and the enemies try to slip past it.

Meanwhile, the Defender is encouraged to stay way the heck in the back of the party, since he's doing this instead of attacking, it has no range/LOS limit, and getting himself attacked will actually quite possibly break allies' protection. So the Defender isn't really participating in the battle anymore, and he has been thoroughly removed from his intended iconic behavior of standing between allies and danger.

Additionally, the limit to the number of allies this can affect is going to make its usefulness vary wildly depending on party size. In a 3-person party, this plausibly protects "everyone but the user"; in a 6-person party, it plausibly protects "not enough people to matter."

Of course, exactly how powerful it is will also vary dramatically based on how the DM chooses to have the monsters react. Depending not only on how clever the monsters are, but also based on whether or not the DM decides they can figure out when he uses this ability (or doesn't) or which targets are affected (without actually attacking them).


Anyway, I'm looking through RoW clases for any class features that use standard/move/full-round actions, since you seem to think the lack of them in the Defender is odd. Here's what I found:

Fighter: Improved Delay (arguable whether this counts)
Barbarian: Savagery (level 17, full-round)
Knight: Knightly Spirit (highly situational move-equivalent action)
Samurai: Ancestral Guidance, maybe? (non-combat)

...I don't think the Defender is really exceptional in this regard. Still might be reasonable to consider adding some, but I'm not terribly worried if he doesn't have any. At least the Defender can do something special with readied attacks (Distracting Blows).

Right now you are defining the Defender's class abilities against the Barbarians numerical progression. I think it would be much better if you defined it against: when to Rage and when to Fast Heal, who to stun, how to Command his followers, who to catch in his antimagic field, who to Disjoin, how to use his feats.

Defender: when to use Aura of Safety, who to Aid (and how), when to use Positional Advantage, whether to full attack or use readied attacks to try to interrupt people, where to position himself to leverage his class features, whether or not to snare spells that pass by. Oh, and he's got more feats to manage than the Barbarian, and can choose to get the Command feat earlier (without sacrificing a class feature later), and the Barbarian only gets a restricted version.

The point I was trying to get across was that the Defender does not even win 50% of the time when you assume that his effects function half the time, and the monsters effects function half the time.

Actually--unless by that you mean that we're assuming that effects that don't even involve a die roll are suddenly failing half the time for no reason--it looks to me like the build I posted probably still goes about 50/50. I think he'd still probably beat the Fire Giant, the Bebilith, the Trolls, and the Shadows given space to move (fly) around in, that he'd stand a good chance against the dragon, and might even win some of the other ones depending on exactly what arbitrary assumptions we're making. There's 9 challenges on the list, so winning 4-5 is just about perfect.

Contrariwise, taking your hypothetical build that makes one attack per round that hits on 2+ for 1000 damage, if that is his only notable feature, I seriously doubt he wins all the challenges. Seems unlikely he could reliably handle the hallway of runes, the shadows (too many), the dragon (flying/burrowing + breath attack), the necromancer (minions, SoDs), or the mindflayers (multiple monsters with SoDs); depending on his actual other stats, he might well also have trouble with the bebilith (web), the vrock (flying + lots of abilities), or even the trolls (if he can only drop one per round). So your "numerically broken" build might not even go 50/50 even if we obey the numbers rigidly.

I could be making bad assumptions or committing optimistic bias, but it's not at all clear to me that the test is broken using precise numbers or that the Defender falls apart if you don't.

And the Defender really doesn't push the RNG much. Empowered Saves are only marginally better than a level-appropriate cloak of resistance (or exactly the same under Book of Gears); Superior Save only lets you replace one attribute with another; the bonus feat can be replicated by anyone willing to spend a feat on it. The Dungeonomicon Monk can easily beat the Defender on all 3 saves; a multiclass character could do it (even under RoW rules) without ever getting a single class feature that affects saves. The Defender can't do anything to boost his AC that isn't available to every class proficient in all armor and shields (that I can see). Aura of Safety, Spell Static, and Distracting Blows all use separate die rolls rather than adding bonuses onto existing ones (the SR technically stacks if you already had some from another source, but its a measly +2).


If you think that the encounters on the Same Game list don't have big enough numbers to fight actual level 10 characters, you could propose some new ones, but then I'd say all characters ought to fight against those same numbers. If you think the Same Game Test is fundamentally flawed, you're also welcome to propose another systematic test.

But I refuse to balance anything on the assumption that the DM is zealously but imperfectly rebalancing everything in the game and that the players' goal is to trick him into thinking they're weaker than they actually are, or to make their own performance so random that they go 50/50 with anything vaguely in their range. By that logic there are probably plenty of level 1 characters that can pass the EL 10 Same Game test. It's a stupid assumption, and I'm not making it.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

First off, Spell-like abilities are a standard action to use, so I didn’t need to specify.

Its not that hard:
Defender wards X targets.
Whenever the Dm attacks said targets, the Defender’s player says “will save,” then the Dm rolls the save. Each resolution will take 5 seconds. The other players don’t have to keep track of anything. If the attack is stopped, then the combat round might actually be resolved faster than it otherwise would be.

Secondly, you won’t be keeping track of which allies nullified their protection. The Defender would obviously delay to just after his teammates attack to refresh the Sanctuary. That’s why I mentioned Greater Sanctuary so you wouldn’t have to deal with that mess.

Thirdly, I intentionally left the number of targets vague (see the X). You could make it affect your whole party. I don’t know how powerful you want this to be, especially compared to the Defender’s other abilities.

I can’t read your mind on what the Defenders role is. Standing between allies and enemies (or not in the middle of his allies) runs counter to some of his most powerful abilities. Warped Reach, Aura of Safety, Uncanny Rescue, and Ranged Aid all point to a character who stands in the back lines (or in the middle).

I thought you wanted the Defender to be the focus of enemy attacks? As it stands, Judging Eagle is correct, the Defender will be largely ignored. With this ability, he will be a high priority for enemy attacks. Which you implied was a design goal.

When the Defender decides to use Rng abilities, like Aid, that does force choice. The same brand of choice that buff-casters make on whose numbers to buff at the beginning of the day. If that’s what you want, go ahead.


As for the Defenders Same Game challenge…I didn’t even want to touch that until we got this other stuff hashed out. Suffice to say, many of your assumptions are flawed, and the Defender fares much more poorly than you realize.

But I refuse to balance anything on the assumption that the DM is zealously but imperfectly rebalancing everything in the game and that the players' goal is to trick him into thinking they're weaker than they actually are, or to make their own performance so random that they go 50/50 with anything vaguely in their range. By that logic there are probably plenty of level 1 characters that can pass the EL 10 Same Game test. It's a stupid assumption, and I'm not making it.

It is an even stupider assumption to say that ability X is competitive against monsters because it isn't used, and you depend upon your numbers being bigger to win.

[Manxome]

So do you have some sort of vaguely-objective standard to endorse, or is this a battle of dueling intuitions?

Because I will obviously lose a battle of intuitions, but nothing productive will come of it.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

My "vaguely-objective standard" is to judge the worth of a class ability by the ability's worth in overcoming an equivalent level challenge. I'm harping so hard about the Rng because the easiest way to compare abilities or characters of a given level is to assume their effects come into play an equivalent number of times. At CR 20, the lowest monster Fort save is +9, while the highest is +38. This discrepancy exists across almost every part of Dnd monsters to a lesser or greater degree. Depending upon what monster you pick, and what your class targets, you will get vastly different results. The Same Game challenge uses multiple monsters so that these numbers are less impactful on the outcome. But a character build with crazy damage numbers and no class abilities might 50/50 monsters in a Same Game challenge. That doesn't validate the class's abilities.

---

On your Same Game challenge results:

The only thing that really matters is how useful the Defender's class abilities are in overcoming the challenges. Therefore we will compare it to: A Level 10 Warrior with flight, a bow, equivalent gear, and the same numbers as your example Defender.

Runed Hallway: The warrior doesn't have the SR or immunities of the Defender, so he gets hit more often. But he still gets through much of the time. A moderate win for the Defender.

Fire Giant: The warrior is almost the exact equal of the Defender here.

Young Blue Dragon: The warrior doesn't have evasion or the dazing effect. He still wins the fight though. A moderate win for the Defender.

Bebilith: The warrior is almost the exact equal of the Defender here.

Vrock: The warrior is almost the exact equal of the Defender here.

A tag team of Mindflayers: The Defender has Distracting Blows here, but there are multiple Mind Flayers, and they would stop provoking AoO's after the first one got tagged. The warrior is slightly worse than the Defender here.

Evil Necromancer: The Defender has SR and immunities here. Distracting Blows helps if it is relevant. A moderate win for the Defender over the warrior.

Trolls: The warrior is almost the exact equal of the Defender here.

A horde of Shadows: The warrior is almost the exact equal of the Defender here.

---

The results: How much more useful are the Defender's non-Rng class abilities when compared to nothing?:
-No more useful: 5. Fire Giant, Bebilith, Vrock, Trolls, A horde of Shadows.
-Slightly more useful:1. A tag team of Mindflayers
-Moderately more useful: 3. Runed Hallway, Young Blue Dragon, Evil Necromancer
-Significantly or Overwhelmingly more useful: 0

Conclusions: The Defender's non-Rng class abilities are no more useful than nothing in over half the encounters. Even when his class abilities are useful, they are only moderately determinate of the outcome. His most useful class abilities at lvl 10 are: Distracting Blows, SR, and his immunities. He has no abilities which are significantly or overwhelmingly impressive.

Sidenotes:
-The Necromancer would almost certainly win through spells, minions, and shenanigans.
-The trolls would win. They would pull the Defender to the ground and grapple him to death.

Given all this: If you want the Defenders non-Rng abilities to count for more %-wise than his Rng abilities, you need to make changes. If you like his win % with Rng abilities, you are home free.

[Manxome]

I have some quibbles with your analysis.

First off, half of the Defender's abilities can't even be used when he's alone. And you apparently don't have a problem with this in principle, since your last suggested ability has the same feature. The value of the Aid line of abilities, Retaliatory Attack, Aggressive Defense, and Uncanny Rescue aren't being evaluated at all in this test, so you can't conclude anything about their value based on the results; additionally, I think it's perfectly plausible that Aura of Safety, Positional Advantage, Spell Static, and Distracting Blows will also increase in utility in a party setting. So the possibility of drawing any meaningful conclusions based on this comparison is pretty limited. You're only evaluating a fraction of the Defender's abilities, and many of them aren't being evaluated fully.

Second, you seem to have neglected Aura of Safety in your comparison. In addition to the fact that this significantly boosts his resistance to effects that allow saves (independently of the RNG), the fact that you make one roll for the entire round is extremely important for the hallway of runes. If the Defender and Warrior each set off some large number of runes in the process of blitzing through the hallway, the Defender is safe from all of them if he gets one good roll per round, whereas the Warrior needs to make a good roll against every single one or he likely gets stuck and dies. I'd rate that "significantly" more useful at minimum. It depends upon the number of runes in the hallway, what their activation conditions are, and how high-level they are, but the Defender can plausibly handle a much nastier hallway than the Warrior can.

Third, you seem to have discounted Distracting Blows in the encounters where I suggested the Defender would fly around. If the monsters can't do anything to him, then his ability to interrupt them doesn't matter, but if you're attempting to gauge how effective the Defender is in situations where he can't auto-win based on numbers and equipment, I think it becomes relevant against the Fire Giant, the Bebilith, probably the Vrock, and I think you already counted it against the Dragon (though I'm not sure).

Finally, we have no yardstick to measure how impressive (or not) the Defender's abilities are. We should really do a similar comparison between the Warrior and at least one or two other classes to establish a baseline for comparison; perhaps the RoW Samurai and/or Knight?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

You are correct, we are only evaluating a fraction of the Defenders abilities. However, even force multiplier characters are expected to perform in the Same Game challenge. For example, a battlefield control character like a Wall-omancer has their strongest abilities as a force multiplier, but he is still expected to perform singularly. A Wizard casts Web, and then plinks away with ranged attacks, etc. I don’t have a problem with abilities that only function when allies are present. I do have a problem with a character which has absolutely no useful abilities when no allies are present. This is the case with the Defender in over half of his encounters.

On the Aura of Safety: You are correct. It is strictly not an Rng power. In my opinion it is close enough that it might as well function as an Rng power. I might almost put SR in this category, it effectively adds ~+2 to saves (I think). You might then rightly ask “Well, then what is the difference between SR and a wall spell blocking line of effect?” That is a valid question. My only response to that is thematic concerns. Walls, illusions, etc create strategic/tactical choice which forces thinking of counters. In my opinion this is more interesting and fun than something like SR.

Distracting blows only functions when the enemy provokes an AoO, or on a readied attack. The Fire Giant, Bebilith, and the Vrock all have reach. They will not be provoking AoO’s, so the ability is effectively worthless in that respect. So, the Defender could instead ready an action to attack, and get the DB ability off. But you have to remember that a readied action gives you one attack. This is instead of your two normal attacks. The Fire Giant, Bebilith, and Vrock all have good Fort saves (+14 to +16), so DB will only go off about half the time. In other words, the Defender is choosing to be half as effective damage wise for a 50/50 chance of negating the opponents offense (making the opponent half as effective averaged on multiple rounds). This is a wash, a readied DB is no better than a full attack, it is no better than not having the ability.

It is a good idea to get a baseline comparison by comparing the Warrior to a RoW class. Whether we use the Knight or the Samurai really dictates what we are trying to test. The Knight functions in much the same way as the Defender in that his class abilities primarily aid his allies. Given that the Knight has mounted combat and speak with animals, I will assume he gets a mount. Therefore he would try to go the Designate Opponent archer route and use his mount as interference. He would be using a class ability pretty much every round, and every encounter. Designate Opponent forces tactical choice, so I like it more than an Rng power.

I have never played in a RoW game, and I have not carefully read all of the classes and what their tactical options are. I have only skimmed some of the Samurai class. Since the Defender/Knight comparison seems much more predictable, I suggest we do a Samurai comparison first. Would you prefer to run it and write a comparison first, or would you like me to do it?