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Trill
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Joined: 26 May 2017
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Did I read it correctly that you "Dodge" Attack Programs with WIL and "Soak" with WIL+Biofeedback filter?
Because I understand the analogy (REA for dodging and BOD+Armor for defense) but the problem I see is that neither a "Matrix Dodge" skill nor good WIL augmentations exist.

Also: How common are programs? If I go into the barrens, will I find even one Black Hammer Program? What about stuff like Seize? Could you have some brat Black Hammering passers-by? Or will they only use programs through HotF? Because 2000 per Rating seems pretty expensive.

Also: HotF says that increasing a program from 0 imposes a -2 penalty on the dice pool for the program. How does that work with Armor and Redundant Biofeedback Filter? Because if it reduces the dice it gives then you need to get them to at least R3 to even get one additional die

EDIT: Can IC make Matrix Perception tests? If yes, what dice pool does it use? If no, does that mean that any hit will make you invisible to it?


Last edited by Trill on Tue Jun 27, 2017 11:49 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

* Defense

Quote:
Using an Attack Program involves rolling Logic + Cybercombat, using the target's Firewall as a defense pool. A character may add their own Cybercombat skill to their defense pool against programming with a range of C. Programming with a range of S or H is affected as normal by Signal Defense. If an Attack Program is soaked, a B program is soaked by Willpower and a D program is soaked by System.



Quote:
Full Defense
A character's defense pool in the Matrix can be increased for one initiative pass by a user's Cybercombat skill with a Complex Action. Like full defense in the physical world, a character who is not surprised can abort a future action to go on full defense right now.


* How common are programs:

This really depends on the program. Probably someone has Black Hammer out in those barrens, because that's where a lot of criminals live.

I'm not familiar with what HotF means. Trying to think of it, but I woke up 10 minutes ago and it's not coming to me.

* Hack On The Fly

Your armor program's rating is used as normal, but you get -2 on your dice pool to actually activate the program. Seems simple enough there.

* IC

Yeah it can make matrix perception tests. It rolls its rating, just like it does for all other kinds of rolls.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Trying to think of it, but I woke up 10 minutes ago and it's not coming to me.

I think answering rules while the brain is metaphorically just booting up is a bad idea.

Defense
Okay, so if you use an Attack Program it's LOG+Cybercombat vs. FIRE, and if you hit they defend with the pool described in the program description, right?

And yeah, totally forgot about Full Defense

Programs
Okay, so someone might have it, but if I randomly picked 1000 people from the barrens, how many would have a program, at all?
Of those that have programs, how is the distribution (X% own Operation Programs, Y% own Communication Programs, etc.)?
My current guess is that about 5-15% of the barrens population has programs, with those mostly (65-90%) being Operation programs (Armor and Red. Biofeedback), second (30-40%) being Communications (ECCM most likely) and very rarely (<10%, most likely even <5%) being Analysis, Exploit and Attack programs.

Quote:
I'm not familiar with what HotF means. Trying to think of it, but I woke up 10 minutes ago and it's not coming to me.

* Hack On The Fly

Just answered your own question

Quote:
Your armor program's rating is used as normal, but you get -2 on your dice pool to actually activate the program.

Wait, you can fail in using the Armor Program?
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
Wait, you can fail in using the Armor Program?

Yep. Every program has a Hits counter, and you need to have at least 1 hit for the program to keep going. If you don't get any hits (always possible) then your program doesn't go off.

Quote:
Okay, so someone might have it, but if I randomly picked 1000 people from the barrens, how many would have a program, at all?

This is like, almost program by program, ish.

Assume that everyone has Redundant Biofeedback Filters and Armor. After that a person probably only has other hacking programs if they're a hacker. But they might just randomly have Obscure or Recover or Pin Drop something.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Yep. Every program has a Hits counter, and you need to have at least 1 hit for the program to keep going. If you don't get any hits (always possible) then your program doesn't go off.

Okay, are there any penalties to failing Program Activation, aside from wasting a turn/SA/CA?

Quote:
This is like, almost program by program, ish.

I was asking more about any program at all. Basically 1-(Percentage of people without programs at all)

Quote:
Assume that everyone has Redundant Biofeedback Filters and Armor. After that a person probably only has other hacking programs if they're a hacker. But they might just randomly have Obscure or Recover or Pin Drop something.

So you are assuming close to 100% for programs, at all? So that finding someone without a program is extremely hard?
How many do you think have Attack Programs? (Any Attack Program)

How many people have attack programs in normal areas?
If you take 1000 people from C-A neighbourhoods (so not barrens), how many will have access to Attack Programs?

I'm mostly asking:
How often will someone attack you with a program if you just go around town?
How often if you go through the barrens? (I'm guessing it's far more likely that you'll be robbed with a gun instead)
And of those, how many actually have the program bought and don't just Hack on the Fly the program?
Because not having the program (and needing to Hack on the Fly) reduces the chance to hit. Which can make a difference if your dicepool isn't particularly big already.

Also: what happens when you glitch/crit. glitch the program activation?


Last edited by Trill on Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:33 am; edited 1 time in total
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
Okay, are there any penalties to failing Program Activation, aside from wasting a turn/SA/CA?

Nope.

Quote:
So you are assuming close to 100% for programs, at all? So that finding someone without a program is extremely hard?
How many do you think have Attack Programs? (Any Attack Program)

How many people have attack programs in normal areas?
If you take 1000 people from C-A neighbourhoods (so not barrens), how many will have access to Attack Programs?

I'm mostly asking:
How often will someone attack you with a program if you just go around town?
How often if you go through the barrens? (I'm guessing it's far more likely that you'll be robbed with a gun instead)
And of those, how many actually have the program bought and don't just Hack on the Fly the program?
Because not having the program (and needing to Hack on the Fly) reduces the chance to hit. Which can make a difference if your dicepool isn't particularly big already.

You're basically asking for a random encounter table. Alongside "a Lone Star patrol attempts to shake you down" and "ghouls spring out of an alley" would be "your commlink alerts you to an attempted breach".

Also keep in mind that a walk-by hacker would be looking for easy prey, not a runner with cybercombat programs loaded, nor would he take on the guy with three heavily armed friends. It's just not a good random encounter.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 30, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zaranthan wrote:
Trill wrote:
Okay, are there any penalties to failing Program Activation, aside from wasting a turn/SA/CA?

Nope.

Okay, what about Glitches and Critical Glitches while activating? Will a Crit. Glitch on my Armor Program crash my commlink or just make it count as two sustained programs? (These are just examples for the severity)

Quote:
Quote:
So you are assuming close to 100% for programs, at all? So that finding someone without a program is extremely hard?
How many do you think have Attack Programs? (Any Attack Program)

How many people have attack programs in normal areas?
If you take 1000 people from C-A neighbourhoods (so not barrens), how many will have access to Attack Programs?

I'm mostly asking:
How often will someone attack you with a program if you just go around town?
How often if you go through the barrens? (I'm guessing it's far more likely that you'll be robbed with a gun instead)
And of those, how many actually have the program bought and don't just Hack on the Fly the program?
Because not having the program (and needing to Hack on the Fly) reduces the chance to hit. Which can make a difference if your dicepool isn't particularly big already.

You're basically asking for a random encounter table. Alongside "a Lone Star patrol attempts to shake you down" and "ghouls spring out of an alley" would be "your commlink alerts you to an attempted breach".

Also keep in mind that a walk-by hacker would be looking for easy prey, not a runner with cybercombat programs loaded, nor would he take on the guy with three heavily armed friends. It's just not a good random encounter.


Yes and no.
Yes, I basically want a percentage chance of getting attacked by a Hacker/Script-Kiddie when going through the Barrens/City. Or at least some rough outline of programs.
If I stat a random Barren rat, what programs would I put on them and how likely is it for them to have it? So e.g. Armor and Red. Biofeedback Filter are very common, so I can just put it on all of them, while a Seize Program is costly and thus maybe one or even none of them will have it. Because it makes a difference if 10%, 1% or 0.1% have Attack Programs.

No, I don't want it as a random encounter table, and it should be mostly for normal people (being heavily armed reduces the chance to be attacked with normal weapons, a good commlink with strong programs reduces the chance to be attacked with Attack Programs, but these just change a percentage. I still need the chance for normal people to have an actual percentage, not just the change of one). And mostly it's to get a better idea of the world (there's a HUGE difference if every tenth ganger has attack programs at okay ratings and a world where you can be happy to find even one Attack Program in the entire Barrens)
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
Okay, what about Glitches and Critical Glitches while activating? Will a Crit. Glitch on my Armor Program crash my commlink or just make it count as two sustained programs? (These are just examples for the severity)


Made Up Suggestion: With a critical glitch you count as having one extra sustained program until you succeed on a Logic+Computer(Issue Commands) (2) test (Simple Action per test).

Quote:
So you are assuming close to 100% for programs, at all? So that finding someone without a program is extremely hard?


Yeah pretty much everyone has the core defensive programs (Armor and Redundant Biofeedback Filters). If you're not a serious hacker but you're security conscious you might have Cloak as well. If you're rich you have an IC going.

I mean common people pay for these things and all, but really the corps are encouraged to have everyone have as much matrix defense as possible at all times. For the same reason that the government is encouraged to provide vaccinations to people in the real world. It's cheaper to prevent problems than it is to pay for the cleanup after the problems rear their ugly heads. In addition to preventing specific problems, there's an element of herd immunity to it as well.

Quote:
How many do you think have Attack Programs? (Any Attack Program)


Unlike all other forms of program, Attack programs are "Restricted" legality. That means that you're expected to have a license to own them, and not having said license is the same sort of problem as having any other unlicensed item. Let's compare them to guns. If someone is socially the type of person who might have a gun (security guard, ganger, detective, whatever), they might also have Attack programs if they have the skills for it.

Quote:
How often will someone attack you with a program if you just go around town?


Only as often as people would randomly start shooting at you with bullets. It's actually a fair bit harder to pull off a good hack than to pull a gun's trigger, so we'll you're faced with a random hack attack only 30% as often as you're faced with a random gun attack.

The rate of a random gun attack still depends on where you are and stuff of course.

Quote:
how many actually have the program bought and don't just Hack on the Fly the program?


Hack On The Fly is a total desperation move. It's like asking how many people will try to mug you in the street using a prison shiv instead of just a normal knife. Not many.

The thing when talking about programs at all is that programs can be copied over and over all over the place. Once you have them, unless you're 100% burned somehow, you can just restore them from your backups somewhere in the Matrix as soon as you get your new commlink (takes hours and hours to re-calibrate to your new device, but no money is spent). In light of this, the prices are borderline nonsense, since you're basically not paying them except at character creation. That's fine though. With just one or two captured commlinks from enemy hackers your entire party (or your whole gang) will have access to most every program available at rating 4 or more. Most people don't have the commlink and/or skills to even make use of program ratings above 4 though, so that's where things start to get rarer, and that's where you start having to drop big piles of money for that slick Rating 7 Crash program to go with your new System 7 OS on your commlink.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Made Up Suggestion: With a critical glitch you count as having one extra sustained program until you succeed on a Logic+Computer(Issue Commands) (2) test (Simple Action per test).

Good. What about a glitch reducing the rating by 1. So if you roll a glitch on your Cloak 5 Program it is effectively a Cloak 4 program (with all the problems that entails) until you try again.

Quote:
Yeah pretty much everyone has the core defensive programs (Armor and Redundant Biofeedback Filters). If you're not a serious hacker but you're security conscious you might have Cloak as well. If you're rich you have an IC going.

I mean common people pay for these things and all, but really the corps are encouraged to have everyone have as much matrix defense as possible at all times. For the same reason that the government is encouraged to provide vaccinations to people in the real world. It's cheaper to prevent problems than it is to pay for the cleanup after the problems rear their ugly heads. In addition to preventing specific problems, there's an element of herd immunity to it as well.

Understandable
So finding people without at least Red. Biofeedback or Armor means searching for EXTREME luddites or hermits

Quote:
Unlike all other forms of program, Attack programs are "Restricted" legality.

I can understand why, but where do you see it in the book? Because it's written
Ends of the Matrix wrote:
Rated Programs: Cost/Availability

Analysis Programs 500/Rating 2/Rating
Attack Programs: 2000/Rating 2/Rating
Communications Programs: 1000/Rating 2/Rating
Exploit Programs: 1500/Rating 2/Rating
Operations Programs: 500/Rating 2/Rating
Pilot: 500/Rating 3/Rating*
IC: 500/Rating 2/Rating
Pilot Accessory: 100/Rating 4/Rating*

So I don't see anything there making Attack Programs (and only Attack Programs) restricted.

Quote:
Hack On The Fly is a total desperation move. It's like asking how many people will try to mug you in the street using a prison shiv instead of just a normal knife. Not many.

The thing when talking about programs at all is that programs can be copied over and over all over the place. Once you have them, unless you're 100% burned somehow, you can just restore them from your backups somewhere in the Matrix as soon as you get your new commlink (takes hours and hours to re-calibrate to your new device, but no money is spent).


It's more that they can't really get a normal knive.
Also: Copying Programs isn't that easy apparently.
Ends of the Matrix wrote:
Most Program ratings are capped by the system of the network they are running on. IC is an
exception and is instead limited by the Firewall of the Network or Device it is running on.
Programs set up for one OS work very poorly (-2 to rating and dicepools) when used on
another OS until someone reoptimizes it for the new system with a Logic + Software check
(10-System Rating, 2 hours).

Which means that if one of your group has bought the program and you want to use it you need to have them spend at least 2 hours, but possibly up to a day optimising it to work on your commlink. And that for each commlink. And if you get a new model you need to do this as well.

Also: What if you are a lonely barren rat with no chummers? In that case you have nobody to copy from.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
I can understand why, but where do you see it in the book? Because it's written


Aw dag, I'm mixing up my core and EotM memories again. Oh well, nevermind on that.

Quote:
It's more that they can't really get a normal knive.


You misunderstand. I'm saying that outside prison anyone can get a normal knife. That's why no one uses a prison shiv outside prison, because they just go get a normal knife.

A Hack On The Fly is the prison shiv. A real program is the normal knife.

Now it's possible that you might use a Hack On The Fly to make your Rating 4 program that you got free of some corpse into being a one-shot Rating 6 version. But Usually you don't Hack On The Fly a program up from nothing.

Unless you're a Technomancer who's Ghosting, then you might Compile On The Fly a Complex Form out of Nothing I guess. But I'd toss that into the Prison Shiv category.

Quote:
Also: Copying Programs isn't that easy apparently.


It takes time, but it's free. And poor gangers / runners have all the time in the world to waste and no money to do it with. So there you go.

Quote:
Also: What if you are a lonely barren rat with no chummers? In that case you have nobody to copy from.

Sucks to suck.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Okay, so this is a question that has bothered me for a while and I want to know
What is the average skill level in EotM for normal people?
The CRB says that a skill of 0 is what average people have. Gymnastics 0 is the sport you did in school. Pistols 0 is what an average person has who has watched movies with guns can do.
Does this mean that most people have a 20 percent chance to crit. glitch their programs?
That a normal person will only activate their Armor or Biofeedback Filter Program 5 times in 9? that they have a slightly better than 50% chance to control their car autopilot, make some coffee or order a package?
Because that is what you get with the average LOG being 3 and defaulting on the test (so only 2 dice)
Are they only going through the day because we ignore some tests? Or is there a way to get "instructions" that increase the dice pool? (So that with normal skill a person has only 2 dice for Armor, but being instructed in how to activate it means they get 2 dice, allowing them to buy a hit)

Because a world in which normal persons fail at basic computer based tasks might fit a comedy game, but not shadowrun.
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Zaranthan
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 02, 2017 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Programs keep running until you terminate them or reboot your commlink. How often do you reboot your cell phone? Also, the test is really only important when you're counting the seconds. If you're getting dressed in the morning and discover your link restarted overnight to install an OS update, you sit down with your coffee and check your security suite. If you get a hit, all's well. If not, some config setting reset itself and you've gotta spend time fixing it (roll again until you succeed). If those two dice come up snake eyes, then you've got update compatibility issues to waste your morning on.

That seems consistent with the way I see most people use their computers.
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...is the dead guy posthumously at fault for his own death and, due to the felony murder law, his own murderer?

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A palace made out of poop is much more impressive than one made out of gold. Stinkier, but more impressive. One is an ostentatious display of wealth. The other is a miraculous engineering feat.
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
Okay, so this is a question that has bothered me for a while and I want to know
What is the average skill level in EotM for normal people?


Rank 1 for Computer and Data Search, the others might be rank 0 or 1. If the person has a job that's in any way technical they'll have sufficient ranks to get their normal dice pool up to at least 6 dice, or 8 if they're an "advanced" professional.

Ignore all of those examples of ranks and who has them in the book that's mostly crazy talk. Just look at a person's dice pool total, that's what matters. 6 is basic professional (usually 2 hits), 8 is advanced professional (can buy 2 hits), and more dice is more skilled above that.

Zaranthan wrote:
Programs keep running until you terminate them or reboot your commlink. How often do you reboot your cell phone?


Outside of combat, rarely. You might need to in a combat though. Common folks don't get into combats though.

An average "non-technical" person probably has 3 or 4 dice on Logic+Computer checks. Most of the time they can turn on the basic programs. If they really mess it up they might have to ask a friend to help.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sensory Deprivation:
The description says that an optimized defense is given if you have an internal SimRig or multiple cybernetic senses
How many?
Is it Boolean? (X senses and you get opt. def. Any less and you don't)
Step function? (if you have X cybernetic senses they get a -1 hit penalty, if X+n cybernetic senses they get -2 hits)
Individual? (if they have rolled less than 3 net hits they only shut out the senses that aren't cybernetic. If they have equal or more than 3 net hits they shut out all of them)
Something else?

How much do you need to replace to make it count as a cybernetic sense?
Is it only important that it's through technology? (which would mean that implanted thermographic vision counts as one, but Troll's Eyes doesn't)
Do you need a connection to the commlink? (in which case getting image link, sound link and touch link is enough)
Or do you need the whole part replaced? (so you'd actually need cybereyes, cyberears, etc.)

What senses does it block?
Traditional ones? (Sight, smell, touch, taste, hearing)
Organ based ones? (previous plus heat, pressure, pain and balance)
All? (So the previous plus non-organ specific like sense of time, proprioception, CO_2 sense, etc.)
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
The description says that an optimized defense is given if you have an internal SimRig or multiple cybernetic senses
How many?

1 is single, 2 or more is multiple. That's just English.

Quote:
How much do you need to replace to make it count as a cybernetic sense?

You need to have replaced your eyes with cybereyes, or your ears with cyberears, or a touchlink, or a tastelink, or a smell link.

Quote:
What senses does it block?

All your senses.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Quote:
1 is single, 2 or more is multiple. That's just English.

So with just a taste link and a touch link you are having an optimised defense? That people can't affect your visual nerves because you are transmitting touch and taste data?

Quote:
You need to have replaced your eyes with cybereyes, or your ears with cyberears, or a touchlink, or a tastelink, or a smell link.

Why cybereyes and cyberears? Can't you just implant an image/sound link in your normal eyes/ears?

Quote:
All your senses.

That seems pretty powerful given that this includes the balance sense (so if afflicted you should fall down directly), proprioception (so you don't know how your limbs are positioned relative to you) and the CO_2 sense (so you don't even know you are suffocating and should start breathing)
So someone afflicted by Sensory Deprivation should fall down, flail around trying to do things and if they stay at it too long they risk suffocation
Or did you mean all Traditional Senses?

My current interpretation would be this:
It's individual, with two senses needing to be there. So if you have touch link and sound link and a hacker only gets two net hits, then you can't smell, see or taste but are still able to hear and feel. If he gets more then all senses are cut off. Most people will have an image link and sound link (through cyber eyes and ears) so those will most likely not affected.
You only need a connection. So both Cybereyes and simply implanted Image Link are fine, but stuff like Thermographic Vision are not.
Cut off senses are the organ based ones. Basically anything that infers information about the real world is cut off, while internal sensors are there. So you can't see or know where up is. But you do know how your body is positioned, you do feel pain and you can breathe automatically.


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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 05, 2017 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
So with just a taste link and a touch link you are having an optimised defense? That people can't affect your visual nerves because you are transmitting touch and taste data?


Your brain has enough cybernetic sense wired in at that point that it's extra defensed against sense lost. Doesn't matter what type. Maybe it's silly, but Shadowrun is pretty silly so whatever.

Quote:
Why cybereyes and cyberears? Can't you just implant an image/sound link in your normal eyes/ears?


Naw cause that makes the full replacement version more valuable, which is cooler.

Quote:
That seems pretty powerful given that this includes the balance sense (so if afflicted you should fall down directly), proprioception (so you don't know how your limbs are positioned relative to you) and the CO_2 sense (so you don't even know you are suffocating and should start breathing).


I mean just the five "main" senses.
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Your brain has enough cybernetic sense wired in at that point that it's extra defensed against sense lost. Doesn't matter what type. Maybe it's silly, but Shadowrun is pretty silly so whatever.

See, this does imply that you can transmit sense data through inputs not designed for that purpose (if you have touch and smell link you can transmit redundant video and sound data through it, thus giving an optimized defense)
Something I am perfectly okay with (the [sense] links transmit data directly to your brain anyway), but which contradicts your previous ruling that a [sense] link can only be used to transmit data of that sense type.
So unless you rescind that previous ruling or give an alternative reason I don't see how your brain is supposed to compensate for no video data through additional sound and taste data

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Naw cause that makes the full replacement version more valuable, which is cooler.

Understandable, though not my personal favorite

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I mean just the five "main" senses.

Good to know
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Lokathor
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Trill wrote:
See, this does imply that you can transmit sense data through inputs not designed for that purpose (if you have touch and smell link you can transmit redundant video and sound data through it, thus giving an optimized defense)
Something I am perfectly okay with (the [sense] links transmit data directly to your brain anyway), but which contradicts your previous ruling that a [sense] link can only be used to transmit data of that sense type.


Does it imply that? I'm not sure it implies that. I don't think you're protected because your alternate senses are transmitting backup feeds of some alternate type. I think it's just because your senses get hardened in general and they're harder to affect in the first place. Your brain isn't balanced out like a normal brain, so it's harder to "get a lock" on the spots to target. Some of these programs need really high precision.
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Trill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Lokathor wrote:
Your brain isn't balanced out like a normal brain, so it's harder to "get a lock" on the spots to target.

See, this makes me think that maybe we have two different ideas about how Sensory Deprivation works.
Because AFAIK it says
The Ends of the Matrix wrote:
If net hits are achieved, the subject is blinded and completely cut off from physical
senses as their sensory neurons are suppressed.


Which I interpret as such:
Sensory deprivation reduces the activity of the neurons that transmit the information from the sensors (retina, cochlea, pressure sensors, taste buds and chemoreceptors), thus preventing the signal from reaching the brain.
Since the location of these nerves varies only slightly you can easily determine where to send the signals, provided you have a line of sight to determine the body's position and orientation.
Sense links however are harder to block, meaning that their signals need at least 3 net hits to be stopped. Similarly with the connection of the SimRig to the brain.
Thus, when you have at least two cybernetic senses your commlink can read the data from the sensors, transmit it to the cybernetic senses and use the connection to transmit the data. Similarly with a SimRig. Only when you get 3 net hits (effectively 1 net hit after Optimized Defense) you can block all entry points for the data

EDIT: Formulated it differently
EDIT2: Frank said (in a PM) that this is how he intended it to work. It cuts the transmission between brain and signal producer.


Last edited by Trill on Tue Jul 11, 2017 5:37 pm; edited 4 times in total
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Wiseman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

This might have already been addressed, but I couldn't find an example of play with these rules. Something like that would be really helpful. Like say these scenarios.

A technomancer wants to infiltrate a saeder-krupp network to get specs on a new combat drone. There's a corporate hacker who is prepared to stop intruders should one try to enter the network. Also the network (or system? not sure) looks like a large collection of dragon eggs in a cave (each represents a different system or file? not sure if I have the right terminology)

Now said technomancer wants to try to take control of the drone she got the specs on so she can steal it, unfortunately it is now piloted by a corpsec rigger. What do?

Finally with the targets taken care of, the technomancer wants to eliminate traces of her actions (possibly tampering with security footage). Is this about the same as part 1?
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Trill
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Can't really provide a play example, but I'll try to generally answer them

Quote:
A technomancer wants to infiltrate a saeder-krupp network to get specs on a new combat drone. There's a corporate hacker who is prepared to stop intruders should one try to enter the network. Also the network (or system? not sure) looks like a large collection of dragon eggs in a cave (each represents a different system or file? not sure if I have the right terminology)


If the TM wants to infiltrate he'd need to get an entry point to the server it is on. Since every device in his signal range is also in connection range he should be able to just enter it. A normal hacker might just enter or need to Backdoor (LOG+Hacking vs. FIRE+WIL) it.
Inside there is a virtual environment, designed as the creator wishes. This means that yes, devices could look like caves with files like eggs, etc. Remember though that your commlink also has a Reality filter, that can change how stuff looks.
Inside the server the TM might meet the corp hacker, which he would have to fight (with various programs, like Black Hammer, Crash, Death note, etc.). He could also hide himself to avoid the hacker (make a INT+Hacking test vs. the corp hacker INT+Data Search)
Once he found the data he can copy it, though it may be encrypted (in which case you need Decrypt or Opening), Data Bombed (in which case you need to defuse it) or both.
Afterwards he just needs to log out

Quote:
Now said technomancer wants to try to take control of the drone she got the specs on so she can steal it, unfortunately it is now piloted by a corpsec rigger. What do?

He may try to Jump into the drone and fight the Rigger, send a Machine or Industry sprite to Merge with it and take control or Jam it so that it loses connection to the rigger

Quote:
Finally with the targets taken care of, the technomancer wants to eliminate traces of her actions (possibly tampering with security footage). Is this about the same as part 1?

depends on the sensor
if the sensor is a lone device you just need to shoot it and the data is gone
if it is a low quality sensor then the data isn't useful either
If it is networked you can use Master Control to gain Admin rights and then delete the data.
What's also possible is simply to use Misplace at the beginning to make the data not be saved or if recent use Reset to eliminate all data created in the last (net hits) CTs
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Trill
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

When a TM goes into VR, is the topology he operates on that of normal VR or the normal world?
If he goes into VR, does he see stuff in their RL positions but as icons, or does he see the icons you normally would see?
Because you can't determine the real life position of icons from their displayed position.

Basically: is TM VR like Mage projection where things are in their normal places but seen differently?
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Trill
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 29, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Since it appears to have killed the thread, here's a comparison:
Case 1: TM VR is like normal VR, where icons are not indicating where they are in real space. The only difference to normal VR is that every Icon they see can be affected by C Range CFs and that they can float from one server to another.

Case 2: TM VR is like mage projection, where Icons are overlaid over the RL positions of objects. If two icons are close to each other they are necessarily close to each other in RL. You can orient yourself based on the position of icons (so if you follow the paths of car icons you will necessarily be over a street). You can kinda explore a place by floating around and looking for icons. E.g. if you are looking for enemies then you can look for them and know where they are in the real world, just like a mage can look in astral space and know where people are.

I'd assume that Case 2 is the right one, based on the fact that Resonance Nodes say that to enter them you have to enter a state in which you can't perceive normal space.
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galvorbak99g
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, Im thinking of porting EotM to Cyberpunk 2020, becasue a) it makes sense for the setting im making to go along with the ruleset and b )brainhacking is really, really cool.
How easy/hard should this be? Any Suggestions for a starting point?
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