The Ends v4.01

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

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Coldstone
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Post by Coldstone »

Trill wrote:
Coldstone wrote:Frank gave a similar answer once around that question, but I don't think it was an actual answer. ^^; By saying 'Their ratings are generic' are you confirming ans saying 'yes, the devices with the higher ratings would contribute' or did you misunderstand the question? ^^;
A TM does not get a benefit out of using a commlink.
But is that defined anywhere? While they do save you basically treat a technomancer like a commlink attached to a brain, I don't think I saw anything stating that you only use those attributes (obviously if no other device is in their network, they would have to). Dedicated and Generic Attributes mentions that many devices have specialized hardware and software for their particular setup (dedicated). It then mentions that other devices have generic attributes, which are meant to operate with a network. It doesn't specify 'only' commlinks of having this, but it does mention commlinks on the next line.

After that, the next paragraph mentions that when a network forms, all the parts of it automatically use the highest available generic attributes.

This would imply that even if you are using a particular commlink to attach to your brain, if you snagged the enemy's commlink and added it to your network, even though it's not the one attached to your brain, if it had a superior attribute, it would benefit you.

The only line I have found that suggests this excludes Technomancers is under 'Technomancers and their attributes'. There it mentions that their attributes are not dependent on her equipment in any meaningful fashion. That could be taken to imply only their Techno-attributes apply, but it can also be taken to mean that they don't need any sort of tech on them at all to create their network, not even a flash drive.

There is a mention for techno riggers using a physical commlink for easier communicating with drones they control, and there is the emphasis on that particular matrix powers that depend on techno-based signal have to be done by that signal and no other.

...It may just be a point to show this could use clarification down the line and maybe not that big a deal. Given that Logic is a core attribute for all hackers means it would be encouraged for the most part, and given logic is = to system, it tends to start pretty high anyways. but if you don't want to be heavily dependent on high mental attributes, it provides a way to fortify response or firewall with another device in your network if it does work.

...and if it doesn't, well at least then you don't have to worry about it at all!
This one may be me failing to use proper terminology, so I shall use a more direct example: Someone sets up a an Area Jammer and creates a R3 background count. Normally this would cause a technomancer's Resonance score to go down 3 points while affected by it (and for the non-techno hackers, make it harder to do matrix stuff). ECCM allows you to counter this I believe, so the question is if the Technomancer would benefit from it in reducing the penalty to his resonance score as well, or only reduce the penalties to matrix actions?
Ah, you mean the reduction of their Resonance! Yeah, ECCM should help (though keep in mind that your dicepool for this is also reduced, so getting a friendly Hacker close, connecting to them and letting them use it on you can work wonders). It should stack with the Clarity (for Static zones) and/or Filter (for Spam zones) Powers your sprites have.

If you know the background hit is coming up and can at least get a sample of it, Since the program is sustainable you could, in theory set up ECCM before it affects you and carry it into the field, minimizing your dice penalty in the first attempt. Teamwork is definitely an option though.
^^

A new question I forgot to ask initially!

Matrix related

11) Matrix stealth mentions that smacking someone with black hammer will give you away, and reality filters will force you to show up. Ignoring the fact Technomancers don't have reality filters (a sense of danger will probably do a similar thing), What constitutes being 'obvious?' Just being an attack program? causing some sort of damage to the icon in question? Will non-combat style actions also make you stick out to the icon in particular? What qualifies for this exposure? Cause if using Jingle makes a network suddenly redlight you the moment you try to remind them to buy more tasty wheat, it becomes a lot harder to plant those subliminal messages to sing your password under your breath whenever you plug it in.

EDIT: accidentally left in a close quote mark and nearly broke the thread page. eep. Fixed it!
Last edited by Coldstone on Sat Feb 24, 2018 11:40 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Trill
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:But is that defined anywhere? While they do save you basically treat a technomancer like a commlink attached to a brain, I don't think I saw anything stating that you only use those attributes (obviously if no other device is in their network, they would have to). Dedicated and Generic Attributes mentions that many devices have specialized hardware and software for their particular setup (dedicated). It then mentions that other devices have generic attributes, which are meant to operate with a network. It doesn't specify 'only' commlinks of having this, but it does mention commlinks on the next line.
Well, RAW there is nothing preventing a TM from using a commlink (aside from maybe the fact that they don't possess normal brainwaves). But I'd rule it that a TM can't use a normal commlink to replace their stats.
This would imply that even if you are using a particular commlink to attach to your brain, if you snagged the enemy's commlink and added it to your network, even though it's not the one attached to your brain, if it had a superior attribute, it would benefit you.
I'd say that the highest rating connected to your brain is the one that counts. Because otherwise your attributes would depend on which devices you have in your network.
The only line I have found that suggests this excludes Technomancers is under 'Technomancers and their attributes'. There it mentions that their attributes are not dependent on her equipment in any meaningful fashion. That could be taken to imply only their Techno-attributes apply, but it can also be taken to mean that they don't need any sort of tech on them at all to create their network, not even a flash drive.
First of all: They don't need any tech to create their network. Their brain does all the routing work by itself.
Second: Only their meat-attributes apply
There is a mention for techno riggers using a physical commlink for easier communicating with drones they control
where?
Given that Logic is a core attribute for all hackers means it would be encouraged for the most part, and given logic is = to system, it tends to start pretty high anyways.
not really. A TM only needs LOG to raise his SYS. For all his forms he uses RES+Skill.
but if you don't want to be heavily dependent on high mental attributes, it provides a way to fortify response or firewall with another device in your network if it does work.
Considering that their mental Attributes being used for their matrix stats is likely a balancing method (TMs have lower stats and lower dicepools, but can do things Hackers can't) I'd be wary to let them use tech to boost themselves.
What constitutes being 'obvious?' Just being an attack program? causing some sort of damage to the icon in question? Will non-combat style actions also make you stick out to the icon in particular? What qualifies for this exposure? Cause if using Jingle makes a network suddenly redlight you the moment you try to remind them to buy more tasty wheat, it becomes a lot harder to plant those subliminal messages to sing your password under your breath whenever you plug it in.
Anything that makes an obvious effect. Both Blackhammer and Ostraka are obvious (Getting damage or suddenly losing parts of your network is pretty obvious), while Taxman and Backdoor aren't (in the first case you make the system send out data. Business as usual. In the second you make new passcodes somewhere in their code). With Jingle I don't think it's obvious.
Coldstone
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Post by Coldstone »

That's the thing though - it doesn't have to be a commlink to have generic attributes, that's just the common item to have them on because it does all the other stuff. Your toaster can have generic attributes installed if you want - If it's a device intended to be used on a large network, you either make sure it's attached to something with good generics so it has more protection, or you install good generics on it so so if the device that had them before gets yanked out, it still has them after the fact. At no point are commlinks the exclusive item with generic-based software or hardware bits (they're just the most common device to have them that runners deal with on a constant basis). If you think about it though, good home network protection would require a device to have generic attributes for if you aren't personally in range to provide your own, unless you plan to always have a brain-in-a-jar or a brain babysitter watching the place when you're out.

in the case of putting another commlink in a Technomancer's network, it's not about 'attaching' their brain to it so much as it is having the access to the software/hardware that provides its stats.

However, the reminder about the special brainwaves is a good point - that might make it different enough to consider the biocommlink only for attribute purposes in a techno-network.

In regards to the commlink for rigger purposes, I must admit I goofed up slightly - it's not directly mentioned in the 4.3 book (I think). That was misquoted from an answer Frank gave at one point in the thread. Let me check my notes to see if I can quote the whole thing...

here we go. This is the original question back on page 8
Archmage wrote:These are just little things that seem like they should be obvious, but they've come up in play so far (one session, granted) and I wanted to make sure I was handling them more-or-less "correctly." The team's Matrix jockeys include a technomancer and a rigger with a bunch of hovering gun drones.

1) The technomancer's effective Signal range is 100m, but obviously if she can establish a connection to the greater Matrix at large, she can still send e-mail or even sensory feeds to people outside that range, right? At that rate, the signal is being re-routed through other sources; doesn't that theoretically make the signal less secure? Or can the technomancer just use a commlink as a repeater to boost the signal?

2) If the technomancer can use a repeater to boost signal, why don't all technomancers carry around high-signal commlinks or whatever to use as their "actual" signal source? Or should they?

3) Normally, when you hack on the fly to create a program you don't actually have, you roll and use the hits to determine the rating of the new program, with a -2 penalty for actually using the program. How does this work for technomancers? If a technomancer hacks on the fly to use a complex form she doesn't know, does she use the hits as the "rating" for the program instead of her Resonance as normal? Or does it just cap her hits at the "rating" of the improvised program?
...and this is Frank's response to that.
FrankTrollman wrote:1. A Technomancer can draw a path through repeaters of any type to maintain a connection or send Matrix range stuff. Their signal range abilities (including most illegitimate methods of getting access) only go to the range of their actual personal signal.

2. Technomancer Riggers usually use Commlinks because it lets them relay commands and sense data over long distances. Technohackers may not care.

3. Threading has the same rating limits as Hacking on the Fly - number of hits.

-Username17

So that implies that the commlink can at least be used for the signal boost to keep contact with something like a drone, at the very least.

Good reminder on the resonance+skill part. I knew that, but I forgot when I was typing up the pondering. >.< Logic still develops the System attribute though, so the question still remains if that somehow limits program hits, threading limits, or just determines system dice and such. (Edit: sorry, response is free actions. my derp).

Guess I'll go back through the programs later and work out a basic list of the subtle versus the unsubtle.
Last edited by Coldstone on Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trill
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:here we go. This is the original question back on page 8
Archmage wrote:These are just little things that seem like they should be obvious, but they've come up in play so far (one session, granted) and I wanted to make sure I was handling them more-or-less "correctly." The team's Matrix jockeys include a technomancer and a rigger with a bunch of hovering gun drones.

1) The technomancer's effective Signal range is 100m, but obviously if she can establish a connection to the greater Matrix at large, she can still send e-mail or even sensory feeds to people outside that range, right? At that rate, the signal is being re-routed through other sources; doesn't that theoretically make the signal less secure? Or can the technomancer just use a commlink as a repeater to boost the signal?

2) If the technomancer can use a repeater to boost signal, why don't all technomancers carry around high-signal commlinks or whatever to use as their "actual" signal source? Or should they?

3) Normally, when you hack on the fly to create a program you don't actually have, you roll and use the hits to determine the rating of the new program, with a -2 penalty for actually using the program. How does this work for technomancers? If a technomancer hacks on the fly to use a complex form she doesn't know, does she use the hits as the "rating" for the program instead of her Resonance as normal? Or does it just cap her hits at the "rating" of the improvised program?
...and this is Frank's response to that.
FrankTrollman wrote:1. A Technomancer can draw a path through repeaters of any type to maintain a connection or send Matrix range stuff. Their signal range abilities (including most illegitimate methods of getting access) only go to the range of their actual personal signal.

2. Technomancer Riggers usually use Commlinks because it lets them relay commands and sense data over long distances. Technohackers may not care.

3. Threading has the same rating limits as Hacking on the Fly - number of hits.

-Username17

So that implies that the commlink can at least be used for the signal boost to keep contact with something like a drone, at the very least.
Which mainly means that commlinks can be used as (Directional) Retransmitters, not that they can use their weirdness through them.
Guess I'll go back through the programs later and work out a basic list of the subtle versus the unsubtle.
Well, here's my take:
  • Backtrack: Since you are basically just following their data trail. Subtle
    Brain Scan: You are not sending any data to them. Subtle.
    Find Mind: You are sending data, but this isn't much different from the data they already get constantly. Subtle
    Pin Drop: Not sending any data. Subtle
    Probe: Unsure about this. Could be subtle, since you are basically pricking them to test weak points without actually attacking. It could however also be constructed as a kind of heavy interaction, thus unsubtle.
    Reveal Contents: Unsure, for the same reasons as Probe. It says that you can infer data with enough probing.
    Who Is: Same as Backtrack. Subtle

    Black Hammer: Definitely Unsubtle
    Contagious RAS Override: Unsubtle
    Crash: Unsubtle
    Data Bomb: Since you are placing one it could be either. Subtle as in making a trap. Unsubtle as in heavily manipulating data. Unsure.
    Denial: Unsubtle. You don't just get additional programs unless something is wrong. Basically a DDOS attack.
    Jingle: Subtle, but could be either. I think Subtle gives more opportunities.
    Seize: Unsubtle. Sudden Spasms are not normal.

    Cancel: Subtle. Explicitly said in the description.
    Cloak: Subtle. Duh.
    ECCM: Subtle. Don't see a reason for it not to be.
    Impersonate: Has to be subtle to work. Subtle.
    Intercept: No data sent. Subtle
    Sensory Deprivation: Definitely Unsubtle, same reason as RAS Override and Seize.

    Backdoor: Subtle, if not for fluff reasons, then for basic playability.
    Decrypt: Subtle. Why not?
    Jedi Trick: Subtle. Sends a fake request the system thinks is real.
    Master Control: Subtle. Same reason as Backdoor.
    Misplace: Unsure. Tend towards subtle, since it's used to stop any recordings from being made.
    Ostraka: Definitely Unsubtle.
    Peristalsis: Definitely Unsubtle
    Taxman: Subtle. Same reason as Jedi Trick.

    Armor: Definitely Subtle. Like holding a shield in front of something it doesn't affect the data.
    Fabrication: Unsure, tending towards subtle. For the same reason as with Misplace.
    Medic: Definitely Subtle.
    Obscure: Likely Subtle.
    Recover: Subtle
    Redundant Biofeedback Filters: Subtle
    Terminate Connection: Unsure

    Can of Worms: An area based version of Crash. Unsubtle.
    Death Note: More powerful version of Black Hammer. Unsubtle.
    Lag: Unsure. Could be subtle and lead to situations where someone is completely panicked because his Commlink just went far slower than it should. Could be unsubtle because it reduces the RESP of the commlink, something not done by any normal program.
    Opening: More powerful version of Decrypt. Subtle.
    Registry Dump: Unsubtle.
    Reset: Unsure. On one hand it is a pretty big change in the target system. On the other hand it would be pretty dumb to have a CF that removes alarms, but causes an alarm itself.

    Restructure: Since it says "all involved parties display the device as having always been a part of the new network." I think it's Subtle.
    Test Pattern: Since it does not directly affect target systems I'd say Subtle.
    Transfigure: More powerful Jingle. Since it mentions Firewall constantly trying to undo it, I'd say Unsubtle.
    Validation: Same as with Backdoor. Subtle
Coldstone
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Post by Coldstone »

Well i the case of 'weirdness' and range I concur that can go through their natural signal to avoid some exploits, but the question about the other attributes is still to question... But at this point getting to bounce this around has been helpful. ^^

Thanks for peering through the programs! I don't see any I would contest with. In the case of Probe, I would say it is subtle unless you glitch or critical glitch - that leaves a plausible window for tripping an alert there. I would probably put a similar mark on Reveal contents, although it might be possible to notice data is being copied. That is more GM territory I suspect.

Data bomb is a good question, though I'm going to lean on 'subtle,' because the inner explanation of it mentions having to use perception to spot it. Given it has to go on a file though, if you data bomb something someone is actively using, they will probably notice if the file suddenly becomes unreadable and access it again 9and then possibly go boom).

Misplace was a bit of a puzzle when I first read it, because 'trashcan' makes me think 'recycle bin' and you can go back into that to find files, but you have to be aware they went there too.. From what I can gather it basically makes things not save properly, including things like streaming data. It might be viewable at hte moment it's taken, but you'd be incapable of going backwards or things like that. However, the program isn't sustained, meaning once it happens it continues that way, so I'm a bit unsure of it. I would say it's subtle in attempt, but the results might be unsubtle depending on if someone tries to find the data.. T he other question is if such data is recoverable or not, or if it's considered gone or something.

Terminating connection I think is unsubtle, but it doesn't matter per se. It basically terminates the connection of someone connected to you as I understand the reading, so chances are they're focused on you at the time and will notice when they get kicked out. Even if they aren't paying attention, once the link is broken they may have to go looking for you again anyways, so you can start trying to hide after you ditch the connection.

Reset is probably 'both'. If there is a brain attached and it isn't actually watching, at worse they see their clock briefly jump back a few seconds If they're even watching the seconds) and then the system automatically fixes the time and puts it down to a brief error. IC likely wouldn't notice.

But, if the brain was doing something and you erased progress or rewound something they were watching, or the IC was chasing you and suddenly you're no longer where it originally saw you, they may figure out something is amiss. This reminds me of 'Deja Vu' from the Matrix.
Zaranthan
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Post by Zaranthan »

I'd say Reset triggers an alarm (if it fails), but the network is rewound to before the alarm was triggered (an explicit function of the form).

The Range question seems straightforward. Much like a hacker can use a retransmitter to hit networks with connection range programs, but not signal range programs, the same applies to complex forms.
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Trill
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:Well i the case of 'weirdness' and range I concur that can go through their natural signal to avoid some exploits, but the question about the other attributes is still to question... But at this point getting to bounce this around has been helpful. ^^
You're welcome
In the case of Probe, I would say it is subtle unless you glitch or critical glitch - that leaves a plausible window for tripping an alert there. I would probably put a similar mark on Reveal contents, although it might be possible to notice data is being copied. That is more GM territory I suspect.
That's an acceptable solution.
Data bomb is a good question, though I'm going to lean on 'subtle,' because the inner explanation of it mentions having to use perception to spot it. Given it has to go on a file though, if you data bomb something someone is actively using, they will probably notice if the file suddenly becomes unreadable and access it again 9and then possibly go boom).
I'm not sure if you shouldn't treat it as "Can't place Data Bombs on currently used Files", with one hit on the Matrix perception test being able to tell you if it's being currently used or not, and have an attempt to modify while being used be unsubtle. So your second part won't happen, and players can just spend a simple action to examine the file before they want to Trap it. And if they won't, the GM may or may not spring an alarm on them.
Misplace was a bit of a puzzle when I first read it, because 'trashcan' makes me think 'recycle bin' and you can go back into that to find files, but you have to be aware they went there too.. From what I can gather it basically makes things not save properly, including things like streaming data. It might be viewable at hte moment it's taken, but you'd be incapable of going backwards or things like that. However, the program isn't sustained, meaning once it happens it continues that way, so I'm a bit unsure of it. I would say it's subtle in attempt, but the results might be unsubtle depending on if someone tries to find the data.. T he other question is if such data is recoverable or not, or if it's considered gone or something.
Basically it changes the save locations to /dev/null. The data is written into nothing. The change itself is subtle, sure. And once the data is lost, it is lost. No information is left.
Terminating connection I think is unsubtle, but it doesn't matter per se. It basically terminates the connection of someone connected to you as I understand the reading, so chances are they're focused on you at the time and will notice when they get kicked out. Even if they aren't paying attention, once the link is broken they may have to go looking for you again anyways, so you can start trying to hide after you ditch the connection.
I just read the section on Opening/Closing Connections again. If the other party doesn't know you're there, you can just terminate the connection. If they know you're there, they can try to stop you from disconnecting.
Thing is, the part is apparently written from the perspective of the non-hacker party.
Ends of the Matrix, Matrix Actions chapter wrote:The terminating party makes a Logic + Computer test
with a threshold set by the Logic + Hacking test.
What happens if you are both the one that hacked in, and the one that wants back out? Do you roll against your own LOG+Hacking test hits?
And the other way is to use Terminate connection, which changes it to LOG+Computer(Operations) vs. The enemy network's SYS+INT.
So honestly it could be either, as you said: Who cares anymore at that point? The only question left at that point is "Do I fight against my/their hits on the Hacking test, or do I try my luck with their SYS+INT?"
Reset is probably 'both'. If there is a brain attached and it isn't actually watching, at worse they see their clock briefly jump back a few seconds If they're even watching the seconds) and then the system automatically fixes the time and puts it down to a brief error. IC likely wouldn't notice.

But, if the brain was doing something and you erased progress or rewound something they were watching, or the IC was chasing you and suddenly you're no longer where it originally saw you, they may figure out something is amiss. This reminds me of 'Deja Vu' from the Matrix.
For the purpose of determining Subtle/Unsubtle I think the user is not that important. The system (more specifically the Reality Filter) is the one that examines all data and decides which data he will actually display to you.
So if the RF thinks "This is dangerous and the user should know it's there." then it will be shown. But if the RF doesn't even remember anything about it, then he won't have a reason to show it to you.
Zaranthan wrote:Much like a hacker can use a retransmitter to hit networks with connection range programs, but not signal range programs, the same applies to complex forms.
Zaranthan, if they could attack you with Connection range Programs, then by definition they could hit you with Signal range programs. Both because a Connection allows all lower ranges to be used (so if you are connected to someone you can listen to their brainwaves) and because to form a connection you need Handshake range, which is Signal+Listen range.
Last edited by Trill on Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Coldstone
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Post by Coldstone »

I think he was referring more to the LOS retransmitter trick for shooting around corners with LOS than the type of program implemented. It shows a technomancer using a device to change the situation around, so it's not like they 'can't use the commlink or retransmitters...

But that doesn't really change the initial question about the augmenting attributes like firewall or system...

For now, I'll stick to the idea As it came from SR4 initially while also adopting the idea of 'Don't make it too complicated' from Frank:

1) Resonance sets the rating as far as the programs you know. If you happen to thread one you don't have, it is capped at Resonance (note you still follow the normal rules on how to thread, so Threading a Rating 6 form isn't practical/possible in most cases anyways. if you have the power to do that, we're way beyond this topic).

2)Response and System limit programs that may happen to be on other devices - nowhere in the rules does it say you can only hack/augment/use what's on your commlink/brain piece, which means you can bolster other devices if you see fit (or are likewise limited if your system is lower than the rating of the program on the other device).

3) Other devices within a technomancer network do not share their generic attributes if they are greater than those created by the Technomancer - that doesn't stop them from using the device in some other way, however (such as the signal of a regular commlink to reach further out to connect to the matrix).


That seems reasonable enough I think. Considering your free actions are set by Response anyways, unless you have a matching Intuition, you don't have enough free actions to try and even thread a form that matches your Resonance rating (assuming you start at 6). For lower grade Technomancers, it is much more feasible but not really overpowering since they're already working with lower level things anyways.

Thoughts on that?
Last edited by Coldstone on Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:41 am, edited 2 times in total.
Trill
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:nowhere in the rules does it say you can only hack/augment/use what's on your commlink/brain piece
About that:
Ends of the Matrix, 'Four Questions' chapter wrote:So when we get to the Commlink, the one thing we know didn't happen is that the Commlink
did not replace the need for it to be connected to a serious metahuman brain in order to
orchestrate enough processing power together to do real cybercombat.
Lokathor wrote:I'd say that, without a brain hooked up to it, a commlink is probably only as good as a modern smartphone computationally. It's really designed to have that brain in there doing a lot of the heavy lifting. It's like the difference between a laptop with integrated graphics and a desktop with a dedicated graphics card.
This is explicitly introduced to prevent Hackastack and Agent Smith. To use programs, the device with them needs to be connected to a metahuman brain, which takes some time. They already get their programs through Karma, they shouldn't be able to also buy Programs for money
I'd run it this way:
  1. Complex Forms you know start at RES. You may try to thread them up to RES*2 (maybe just RES*1.5), using normal Threading rules (so your improvement is capped by your RESP, and hits increase the rating, but the total Rating is not capped by SYS)
  2. Complex Forms you don't know start at 0, can be threaded like normal, but are capped by your SYS.
  3. No matter what devices are in your network, you always use your TM stats (they can communicate with your Bio-Commlink but not your brain)
  4. You may use devices as Retransmitters, including Commlinks.
Let's do an example:
Tommy TM has the following stats:
RESPONSESIGNALSYSTEMFIREWALLRESONANCE
42346

Let's say he has Backdoor and Master Control as known Complex Forms.
Tommy tries to use Backdoor, which starts at 6. If he wants, he can try and thread it. Since his Response is 4, he may try to thread it to 10 (+4), by rolling at least 4 hits on the INT+Compiling test and spending his 4 free Matrix Actions.
Now Tommy tries to use Black Hammer, which he doesn't have. He rolls INT+Compiling, getting 4 hits. But since his System is only 3 he can only Thread it to R3.

So you can have:
TMs with high RES, that just use the CFs they know. (thus they only need high RES and medium RESP and INT+Compiling, but may have problems if they need a CF they don't have which they can't push high)
TMs with low RES that Thread their known CFs to the maximum. (thus only need low RES, but high RESP and many known CFs)
TMs with low RES that Thread their unknown CFs to a high Rating and just eat the penalty (thus they need high LOG and INT, medium/high Skill for running them, and midrange Compiling skill)
Last edited by Trill on Tue Feb 27, 2018 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Coldstone
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Post by Coldstone »

...I just typed lots and lots of rambling nonsense that made sense but felt redundant, so I'm going to try and simplify what I was typing before I went ' This sounds like I'm trying to be rude by being wordy'. So, as my alternate counter to the quotes:

1)The Commlink quote refers to a commlink because that is the bread'n'butter device for connections. If this were SR5, it would be a Cyberdeck in the example - the key meaning of this is that to do 'real cybercombat' as the end of the quote shows, you need a brain as part of that network. Which means a device with good generic attributes that you can plug your brain into either via a datajack or a trode net.

2) The commlink/smartphone quote is incorrect in how you use it because a device does not need a brain to use programs - it needs an IC to run programs autonomously or it simply needs to be commanded from a distance. The easiest example is the equipment spotlight on the Toaster - you send an email or connect to your home network from far away and send a command to the toaster to make toast. If you needed a brain to let that toaster burn bread, then that would imply technology has gone backwards.

Now, can that Toaster use blackhammer from a distance on someone in the other neighborhood? Absolutely not - it definitely needs to be in a network attached to a brain to do that, but you could store the black hammer on that toaster for when that time comes, and you could even install a high level IC on that toaster so if someone unauthorized connects to it, it can toast their brains. Otherwise, All you have to do is be close enough, make a connection, add it to your network and bam, brain toast. Zombies won't know what hit them.
(that rambled slightly, but it's a much smaller debate than I typed earlier)

3) There is no sensible reason to deny a technomancer the ability to spend money on a program - a program can't gain most benefits a Technomancer has access to, and I meant to imply that you can treat the technomancer like a regular hacker in regards to interacting with programs on other devices, but they would still use their technomancer attributes for the purpose of the networks ratings.

Also, not counting resonance forms unique to technomancer, there are 35 bloody programs available - that's 105 BP to have all of the non-unique ones or 175 karma in game! The fact Frank never set a hard limit of how many forms you can know at chargen is convenient, but that's expensive! He might have meant for your list of forms purchasable at chargen to be capped like with spells known or original forms in SR4. O_o; Even if a lot of programs are themed for styles, that's a lot of BP or karma to invest only to have someone tell you 'I'm sorry, but you can't use that armor program, it's too simple/complicated for your mighty brain to handle.

From a 'fairness' standpoint it also doesn't matter because of the logic that hackers/shadowrunners liberate most of their goods off defeated enemies. If regular hacker isn't paying for most of his programs, A Technomancer doesn't spend anything picking up the stuff either. If a mundane or a mage can play hacker for a technomancer can't just because it's their specialty, it sounds a bit too 'auto-nerf this'.



Anyways, as far as threading went, I was avoiding because normal threading doesn't cause fading anymore. So far the only thing that does is resonance forms in the appropriate categories and compiling sprites. I wasn't sure what would be an appropriate cap. Since there was a risk System was meant to actually cap them, it didn't seem fair to let them go even higher from a hack-on-the-fly. that and all the programs automatically get stronger if you raise your resonance. I was hoping Frank might drop a word in at some point to answer that particular question, but since he hasn't that was why I opted to make the suggested ruling to make it less of an issue.

That line about devices not communication with your brain is an anomaly, because your bio-commlink is your brain. the whole topic about how technomancers work pretty much emphasizes how they can invade your head space and that's why everyone is so terrified of them. otherwise, it makes no sense how you can conjure illusions visible to both flesh bodies and technological sensors.

In the case of the examples:

the High res TM can at least be a cannon in regards to threading above their resonance if that is a legit design. The rest is pretty normal since dice pool odds versus getting 5+ hits is extremely hard. That is probably about as high tuned a design as a TM of that style can be honestly.

The Low res TM with high response is at a disadvantage because complex forms all have one flat price, so they may be suffering in other departments due to the heavy investment (although I'm not mathing it, so maybe it's not as bad as I think and could be viable).

the unknown CP one might be an unusual but amusing example. Purchase no CF's at the start whatsoever lets you focus the spare BP into skills and attributes, and apart from the dice pool penalty....Eh, the main problem with that is you are basically leaving yourself to FATE and EDGE dice that you don't roll crap in a critical situation. that's more of a high stakes gambler technomancer than a hacking technomancer. Still, amusing thought.

EDIT .... and I still ended up typing a bunch of stuff. @_@ at least it was different from what I typed the first time.

So I guess the main thing that started the rambles is the part about 'preventing hackastack and agent smith'. I know what they are and can understand what they do, but I'm not sure they are possible in a plausible manner as far as being concerns go in Ends. Can you build an example of one or both cases that poses an actual threat to anyone with A dice pool higher than, let's say, 6? 4 might be too low to really demonstrate, but I feel that even if you can actually recreate the two concepts, they will be too low powered or self-destructing to be of actual threat to anyone but the helpless.
Last edited by Coldstone on Tue Feb 27, 2018 11:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:1)The Commlink quote refers to a commlink because that is the bread'n'butter device for connections. If this were SR5, it would be a Cyberdeck in the example - the key meaning of this is that to do 'real cybercombat' as the end of the quote shows, you need a brain as part of that network. Which means a device with good generic attributes that you can plug your brain into either via a datajack or a trode net.
I'm really not sure about allowing devices aside from commlinks to simply interface with the metahuman brain in any capacity necessary to run programs through them. Send data to them? Sure. Read data off them? Sure. But get the deep connection that allows it to utilize the vast processing power the brain has? No
2) The commlink/smartphone quote is incorrect in how you use it because a device does not need a brain to use programs - it needs an IC to run programs autonomously or it simply needs to be commanded from a distance. The easiest example is the equipment spotlight on the Toaster - you send an email or connect to your home network from far away and send a command to the toaster to make toast. If you needed a brain to let that toaster burn bread, then that would imply technology has gone backwards.

Now, can that Toaster use blackhammer from a distance on someone in the other neighborhood? Absolutely not - it definitely needs to be in a network attached to a brain to do that, but you could store the black hammer on that toaster for when that time comes, and you could even install a high level IC on that toaster so if someone unauthorized connects to it, it can toast their brains. Otherwise, All you have to do is be close enough, make a connection, add it to your network and bam, brain toast. Zombies won't know what hit them.
(that rambled slightly, but it's a much smaller debate than I typed earlier)
AFAIK the "program" that allows a toaster to make toast or a car to drive to a point ain't "programs" like the ones you buy and which need a metahuman brain. It's a simple instruction set that can be done by today's computers and doesn't need any brain power. But in the same sense it can't really use any brain power. The toaster listens to E-mails saying which toast is desired, looks up the procedure and values for that kind of toast, and then makes it. As you said, the closest it can come to running programs is by having a extremely weak brain analogue in there.
A commlink isn't just a device that can read and write brain signals (most devices can), it's a device that can go in lockstep with a metahuman brain and fully utilize it as part of it's network. It allows you to give brainpower to other devices through itself.
3) There is no sensible reason to deny a technomancer the ability to spend money on a program - a program can't gain most benefits a Technomancer has access to, and I meant to imply that you can treat the technomancer like a regular hacker in regards to interacting with programs on other devices, but they would still use their technomancer attributes for the purpose of the networks ratings.
Problem with that is of course, that those programs need metahuman brainpower to function, which a TM doesn't have, by virtue of having a "machine brain". I at least feel justified in stopping it by saying "These programs expect a metahuman brain and there isn't one."
Also, not counting resonance forms unique to technomancer, there are 35 bloody programs available - that's 105 BP to have all of the non-unique ones or 175 karma in game! The fact Frank never set a hard limit of how many forms you can know at chargen is convenient, but that's expensive! He might have meant for your list of forms purchasable at chargen to be capped like with spells known or original forms in SR4. O_o; Even if a lot of programs are themed for styles, that's a lot of BP or karma to invest only to have someone tell you 'I'm sorry, but you can't use that armor program, it's too simple/complicated for your mighty brain to handle.
This is something Frank said early in the thread: You don't need all programs. You don't need both Backtrack and Who Is. You don't need Seize and RAS Override.
From a 'fairness' standpoint it also doesn't matter because of the logic that hackers/shadowrunners liberate most of their goods off defeated enemies. If regular hacker isn't paying for most of his programs, A Technomancer doesn't spend anything picking up the stuff either. If a mundane or a mage can play hacker for a technomancer can't just because it's their specialty, it sounds a bit too 'auto-nerf this'.
Most of their programs will be at rating 2-5. Most programs people have will also be in that range. So the hacker will get a R3 program for free (which can save him between 1500 and 6000), while you pay 5 Karma and get a Program that starts at your RES and goes up for free when you raise RES.
Anyways, as far as threading went, I was avoiding because normal threading doesn't cause fading anymore. So far the only thing that does is resonance forms in the appropriate categories and compiling sprites. I wasn't sure what would be an appropriate cap. Since there was a risk System was meant to actually cap them, it didn't seem fair to let them go even higher from a hack-on-the-fly.
I don't see why not. You pay 5 Karma each for a few CFs you really need, and for that you get a CF that starts at a good level and which you can push higher if needed. And the rest you Thread, which costs you nothing but 2 dice on the program and a few free Matrix actions (remember you can thread over a few IPs as long as the Free Actions you spend are consecutive. so with a RESP of 5 you can start with two FA spent on sending files, then roll your Threading pool, spend three FA on threading, and in the next IP spend the first two FA on Threading)
That line about devices not communication with your brain is an anomaly, because your bio-commlink is your brain. the whole topic about how technomancers work pretty much emphasizes how they can invade your head space and that's why everyone is so terrified of them. otherwise, it makes no sense how you can conjure illusions visible to both flesh bodies and technological sensors.
See the top quote.

In the case of the examples:
The Low res TM with high response is at a disadvantage because complex forms all have one flat price, so they may be suffering in other departments due to the heavy investment (although I'm not mathing it, so maybe it's not as bad as I think and could be viable).
As said before, not all CFs are necessary. Take the example of trying to open a door:
  • You can hit it with Jedi Trick and fool it into thinking a legit request came up.
  • You can pull it out of the network with Ostraka or Restructure and just send a command to it.
  • You can use Validation on the door to add a passcode you can open it with.
  • You can use Validation or Backdoor to enter the Network and use Master Control to give you access to the door.
  • You can use Brain Scan, Taxman, Reveal Contents or Intercept to get the passwords to it. If it's encrypted you can use Decrypt or Opening to decrypt it.
  • If you know the biometrics it wants you can probably use Fabrication to make it think this was put in.
Eh, the main problem with that is you are basically leaving yourself to FATE and EDGE dice that you don't roll crap in a critical situation. that's more of a high stakes gambler technomancer than a hacking technomancer. Still, amusing thought.
It's more like having $TEXAS LOG and/or INT, and dozens of Knowledge skills at 1. Or the Elf that put his AGI at 10 with Augments, and still shoots with 9 dice after Defaulting.
So I guess the main thing that started the rambles is the part about 'preventing hackastack and agent smith'. I know what they are and can understand what they do, but I'm not sure they are possible in a plausible manner as far as being concerns go in Ends. Can you build an example of one or both cases that poses an actual threat to anyone with A dice pool higher than, let's say, 6? 4 might be too low to really demonstrate, but I feel that even if you can actually recreate the two concepts, they will be too low powered or self-destructing to be of actual threat to anyone but the helpless.
In hindsight, the biggest problem I have with that would be, that TMs can use all the programs the decker has AND his own CFs, thus being better than him.
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Post by Coldstone »

Technically the Technomancer is meant to be more powerful than a regular hacker, because they are investing karma into it in the first place. That is to be expected once you go beyond the karma both invested into the skills themselves.

And it is true you don't need all the programs, but certain situations may put certain techniques at a disadvantage, so having a backup plan is not a bad idea. By that same token, since there are multiple ways to do things, it's less valuable for each extra method you have to do something, so each extra method a TM were to pick up, the regular hacker could be doing the same: It would be those initial CF the TM already has that still give the same advantage the TM already has over the hacker, whereas program gathering becomes a case of matching skills.


So we have differing thoughts on a few bits, but this has been very helpful in getting my brain to wrap around the system more. ^^ Thank you muchly!
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:Technically the Technomancer is meant to be more powerful than a regular hacker, because they are investing karma into it in the first place. That is to be expected once you go beyond the karma both invested into the skills themselves.
Eh, I see the TM as being similarly powered, but in different parts.
The Hacker is more durable (due to having a separate Icon Monitor), can have higher dicepools (because getting some Cerebral Booster only gives benefits) and may improve faster (if the GM gives him opportunities to snag programs off enemies AND those programs are better than his current rating)
The TM has stronger powers (his weirdness), has access to sprites (very useful. E.g. Archive Sprite for Knowledge skills) and has access to a few CFs that are more powerful than their equivalents (if such exist).
So we have differing thoughts on a few bits, but this has been very helpful in getting my brain to wrap around the system more. ^^ Thank you muchly!
It was useful for me too.
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Post by Coldstone »

Well, in semi new news. After mostly solving one challenge, I found a new one. Skimming back through again, I'm not sure if I could find ar eal answer, or if the answer is meant to basically stay as background as 'it simply does'.

Just in case though...


How does spam work? The concept of spam trying to get you to buy things works loosely along with Jingle (with the program being a more deliberate effort, while standard tactics are more benign). Jingle, however, requires a connection, so you can't just leave some devices with Jingle sitting around advertising Troll sausages - they would have to be able to penetrate your firewall, and IC can't do that on its own on purpose.

So that would imply that, at least as far as using Jingle is concerned, a brain has to be attached and actively going around inside a spam zone hacking into peoples PANS to try and sell them junk. that's just asking to get attacked by angry black hammers and the like. if spam zones were that easy to deal with, they would probably get fried on a daily basis.

and yet spam zones, or at least lesser ones, must exist on a semi legal standpoint too - servers with various businesses attach to it, putting up advertisements for their goods for you to sense. RFID's connected into the network could show up, and thus gain visibility to you when connected to the server, but that's about as close as you can get to doing this while keeping the Sanction that IC cannot hack/invade places. Is all the spam zones really run by small armies of spam hacker brains?

Which brings us back to the basics of the matrix: In SR4, a simple RFID chip could basically emit whatever data at a short range, but it was visible. They were usually the source of ARO's you would see and were for the most part harmless . You could ride the edges of another wifi device's signal to reach other signals, and retransmitters that let you get across the whole world! And you didn't even have to actually log into those who were giving you that free ride, so long as you all stayed in range.

But in the Ends, it seems like you don't ride those waves - if you are close enough, it's possible to do a handshake and connect, but that doesn't actually let you ride a signal from another device to reach further out, right? You would have to either find a device with an even bigger signal (which has its limits already) or bounce off retransmitters.

Not including receiver boosters and all. retransmitters are fairly cheap, which means they're probably all over the place, but most likely they're attached to some network or another. Are retransmitters meant to be the new backbone of the matrix at large for the sake of getting around in the public? If you are raiding a megacorp building and connect to one of there servers to reach further up to another one, do you need to keep that connection once you successfully connect to the other one, or can you drop it and the signal 'piggybacks' along by grace of them all being in range?

I'm not sure if it's because you're meant to make some assumptions of how these things work from old matrix or they weren't explained quite as plainly in Ends matrix.

TLDR/simplified: I'm trying to comprehend how the Matrix actually works to build a 'matrix' that allows people to do their data searches, to allow spam zones to actually invade your PAN in the seemingly autonomous way it does, and so on. Am I just missing something out of the 4.3 or has this puzzled others too?

EDIT: So the derp that I am, after some re-reading of matrix stuff and comparing the prices and ranges of some signals, I've realized/concluded that You wouldn't need a mega number of retransmitters to make a reliable signal network, but they do probably help bolster the higher powered ones around. Thus I have figured out that part. That just leaves the mystery of spam zones.
Last edited by Coldstone on Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:Well, in semi new news. After mostly solving one challenge, I found a new one. Skimming back through again, I'm not sure if I could find ar eal answer, or if the answer is meant to basically stay as background as 'it simply does'.
Isn't it always thus?

I think I'll go through this paragraph through paragraph
How does spam work? The concept of spam trying to get you to buy things works loosely along with Jingle (with the program being a more deliberate effort, while standard tactics are more benign). Jingle, however, requires a connection, so you can't just leave some devices with Jingle sitting around advertising Troll sausages - they would have to be able to penetrate your firewall, and IC can't do that on its own on purpose.
Spam, by itself, is just like it is today: Messages. To transmit messages you don't need Connection or even Handshake range. Signal range is enough. The device (whether it's a transmitter in a passing car, or in a building or simply a RFID tag) sends the message data about "NEED MORE IN BED? THESE PILLS WILL MAKE YOU SATISFY EVEN TROLL LADIES" or similar to you, which your commlink, depending on your settings, shows them to you or blocks.
So that would imply that, at least as far as using Jingle is concerned, a brain has to be attached and actively going around inside a spam zone hacking into peoples PANS to try and sell them junk. that's just asking to get attacked by angry black hammers and the like. if spam zones were that easy to deal with, they would probably get fried on a daily basis.
I personally like the writeup of JesterZero on page 9:
JesterZero, on page 9 of the thread, wrote:Things like Jingle make all the sense in the world while you're in the store. In fact, it seems to me that consumers would essentially expect it. And there's a moment in one of the SR4A fluff stories where the equivalent of the Google Cam Car rolls down the street pumping out simsense advertisements at what must be signal 0...because people see it coming, and if they don't want to be disturbed, they step away. It's seen as a potential annoyance, but like all minor annoyances, failure to prevent it is considered to be the responsibility of the one affected, not the one perpetuating it. For a citizen to chase said car down the street with rage in his heart and murder in his eye because he's so offended that it violated the sanctity of his personal space with it's electrons would be seen as a violation of the doctrine of proportional response. And we would all go on our way and tolerate the car, and avoid that crazy guy.

On the other hand, if you equip the Google Car with signal 4 gear and pump the same ads, you take it to a whole new level. You are now offending everyone in a 1km radius...at the same time. And a lot of those people will have the means to do something nasty in a retaliatory fashion that is going to require you to buy a new Google Car. Because you were dumb enough to make yourself an obvious target on both the social and technical levels.
So basically, in Spam Zones you can have people try to Jingle prospective customers, to make them more likely to buy, but most won't and just spam messages, since that is far easier
and yet spam zones, or at least lesser ones, must exist on a semi legal standpoint too - servers with various businesses attach to it, putting up advertisements for their goods for you to sense. RFID's connected into the network could show up, and thus gain visibility to you when connected to the server, but that's about as close as you can get to doing this while keeping the Sanction that IC cannot hack/invade places. Is all the spam zones really run by small armies of spam hacker brains?
As said before, Spam zones are just places with Spam messages being transmitted. But that describes almost all places in the city. A Spam Zone thus has to have so many Messages flying around, that your commlink has a hard time getting their own signal across (see my possible writeup for the Chaff Grenade) and which can provide some commlinks with enough messages that it simply can't keep up (thus the penalty if FIRE<Rating).
Which brings us back to the basics of the matrix: In SR4, a simple RFID chip could basically emit whatever data at a short range, but it was visible. They were usually the source of ARO's you would see and were for the most part harmless . You could ride the edges of another wifi device's signal to reach other signals, and retransmitters that let you get across the whole world! And you didn't even have to actually log into those who were giving you that free ride, so long as you all stayed in range.
I again defer to the explanation of JZ and say that: Yes, they could totally just send their messages through Repeaters in their vicinity or just the Matrix. But that would open them up to far more retaliation than just keeping it close.
But in the Ends, it seems like you don't ride those waves - if you are close enough, it's possible to do a handshake and connect, but that doesn't actually let you ride a signal from another device to reach further out, right? You would have to either find a device with an even bigger signal (which has its limits already) or bounce off retransmitters.
It is totally possible. Let's take a RFID tag broadcasting a 419 scam. The Tag has a Signal of 0, meaning 3 meters. If there is a Retransmitter at (0, 2), the RFID can communicate with it, and thus expand it's signal range from [-3, 3] to [-38, 42].
Alternatively, if there was another Tag there, it could expand it's range to [-3, 5]. If there is another Tag at (0, 5) or closer, then it could connect through that and expand further.
This is basically the principle of the Mesh network. You want to send data to a device X but can't reach it? Just send it to device A, which you can reach, which sends it to B, then to C, then to D, etc. Until it finally reaches X
Not including receiver boosters and all. retransmitters are fairly cheap, which means they're probably all over the place, but most likely they're attached to some network or another. Are retransmitters meant to be the new backbone of the matrix at large for the sake of getting around in the public? If you are raiding a megacorp building and connect to one of there servers to reach further up to another one, do you need to keep that connection once you successfully connect to the other one, or can you drop it and the signal 'piggybacks' along by grace of them all being in range?
Yes and no. Yes, Retransmitters are the backbone of the new Matrix.
No, you can't simply connect from one server to the other if there ain't a connection there.
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Post by Coldstone »

I suppose that's true. for some reason my head didn't consider that the reality filter is 'reading' or otherwise dissecting a message to see if it's spam and then kicking it aside, so an RFID about ram rod basically turns its iconography into a message to be scene by those that pass it. networks seemed more defensive about preventing High Density affecting you given that risk of it trying to melt your brain.

On the other hand, the commlink/device has that same risk, but can't really be fried anymore for the most part, so doing that to the device is a bit less of an issue.

So I guess I worried overmuch. ^^;
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:I suppose that's true. for some reason my head didn't consider that the reality filter is 'reading' or otherwise dissecting a message to see if it's spam and then kicking it aside, so an RFID about ram rod basically turns its iconography into a message to be scene by those that pass it. networks seemed more defensive about preventing High Density affecting you given that risk of it trying to melt your brain.

On the other hand, the commlink/device has that same risk, but can't really be fried anymore for the most part, so doing that to the device is a bit less of an issue.

So I guess I worried overmuch. ^^;
Basically, you're always at risk of getting attacked with dangerous High-Density Signal, just as you are always at risk at being attacked with dangerous High-Velocity (relative to you) Bullets.
And to minimize the chances of those attacks actually doing damage you get yourself a Commlink/an Armor Vest.
Just as a hobo with some scraps is not even a danger to a Sammy, a person without a commlink is not even a danger to a Decker, since in both cases the enemy can be effortlessly dispatched.
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Post by Trill »

A player asked me about playable AI in EotM. I told him that they are NPC only, but rereading I see it's just that they start as modified Sprites.
A few questions:
  1. AIs are said to be "simply treated as a Sprite of some kind with a rating and optional powers as normal". But what kind of sprites are they like, and what powers do they get?
  2. What kind of Rating should they start with? Obviously a higher rating is more powerful, but what rating is considered "low power", what "normal power level" and what "prime runner"?
  3. How would advancement work? They obviously can't get any ware. Does their advancement
    1. go by normal Karma progression, in which case I'd like to know what their minimum and maximum values are for their mental attributes
    2. key off their Resonance, which seems semi-balanced (raising their Resonance costs the Karma necessary for the Submersion and the Karma for the increased RES, but gives them a +1 on all Attributes, an increased RES and a power)
    3. key off their Rating, which then increases the other attributes, in which case: What's the cost? Is there a cap?
  4. Sprites have a Signal rating equal to the TM at the time of the Compiling. What Signal rating do AIs have?
  5. Do AIs have the TM's Weirdness?
Last edited by Trill on Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:23 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Coldstone »

In this case, I think they're meant as NPC's, but given the fact the AI-building rules were muddled in Unwired, Frank didn't try to build it for Player use. Likewise with free Sprites. That said, it probably isn't impossible to adept them similarly to spirits or to fine tune the process.

So with that in mind...

1) It sounds like they were meant, at least for this particular design, to be NPC's. Like with spirits, they can be of any of the types as normally expected, and technically they have the same powers and optional power options. What the optional powers are likely depend on what their Technomancer gave them when they were first rezzed. Free spirits I think may gain a power or two off the bigger list after that, but ultimately, that's a GM decision at that point.

2) If you are following Franks houserules, they have skills equal to half their Rating, which means a high Rating spirit isn't quite as overpowered as in the default rules. That was to help keep them from being overpowered to the player though...

3) Since we'd have to half build the mechanics from scratch or convert spirit ones, the easiest way to deal with this since they are much more adaptable to Shadowrun technology would be to find a middle ground to minimize point costs. So they'd be 'advanced Player Characters' or whatever.

karma progress makes the most sense, but a sprite would have Resonance versus an A.I. who might not. If you are letting someone play a genuine sprite, I would change it from the one that gets summed up in the book - This implies they were a lower rating Sprite and they've built up since then, making them mesh with the other players more.

I got several things I'm doing today, but i can try and cobble together a rough idea when I'm done with them and see how that bounces around.

4) AI may 'travel' in a similar concept to Sprites, but for sake of the fact they may not have a resonance score and all, they should probably build their signal off their own Charisma score like a technomancer/Sprite does, except you could give them a 'fetter' of sorts, where they inhabit a particular device as they progress. It depends just how similar they are, cause normally losing all matrix access destroys sprites unless they are merged into a device (and also knock out a Technomancers rating). If they are brains successfully made into a complex program, theoretically they should be fine as long as they are inhabiting a single device that is on, but if they exist in part due to the Wave, they would suffer the same as normal.

5) that would depend, as indicated in 4.

Basically, how free sprites/AI work may b e a brand new project! Easy enough to adapt with though.
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Post by Trill »

Coldstone wrote:1) It sounds like they were meant, at least for this particular design, to be NPC's. Like with spirits, they can be of any of the types as normally expected, and technically they have the same powers and optional power options. What the optional powers are likely depend on what their Technomancer gave them when they were first rezzed. Free spirits I think may gain a power or two off the bigger list after that, but ultimately, that's a GM decision at that point.
We're talking about AI, which are not connected to any TMs. The question is more "When you make an AI PC, do you just choose one Sprite whose statblock you like as a base and then modify it?"
2) If you are following Franks houserules, they have skills equal to half their Rating, which means a high Rating spirit isn't quite as overpowered as in the default rules. That was to help keep them from being overpowered to the player though...
Sure, they will never be "off the normal humanocentric scale" when comparing skills. But what rating would give a character that fits more into a low power campaign? What rating would give me a character fit to play in a normal Campaign? What rating would you use to make a sprite that has to compete with prime runners?
3) Since we'd have to half build the mechanics from scratch or convert spirit ones, the easiest way to deal with this since they are much more adaptable to Shadowrun technology would be to find a middle ground to minimize point costs. So they'd be 'advanced Player Characters' or whatever.

karma progress makes the most sense, but a sprite would have Resonance versus an A.I. who might not. If you are letting someone play a genuine sprite, I would change it from the one that gets summed up in the book - This implies they were a lower rating Sprite and they've built up since then, making them mesh with the other players more.

I got several things I'm doing today, but i can try and cobble together a rough idea when I'm done with them and see how that bounces around.
Well, Sprites have RES, and since AIs are said to be refluffed Sprites, without saying that they don't get RES, I assume they do. I also think that Karma/BP advancement is the best one of those, but the question still stands: What are their limits? Does an AI based on a Machine Sprite (INT = R+2) have
  • INT 3/8(12)?
    Which is the basic 1/6 range, shifted upwards by 2. All sprites between R1 and R6 fit it, but higher rating AI would be limited to R6
  • INT 3/14(21)?
    Which is the value for a R1 sprite and the one for the R12 sprite. Better for high power, but seems high.
  • INT 1/6(9)?
    Which is just the first but not shifting it. May cause problems with modifiers being cut off if at the borders.
  • Something else?
Can you buy powers at all in CharGen? If yes, what do they cost and how many can you get? If not, can you swap out powers you don't want for powers you do?
4) AI may 'travel' in a similar concept to Sprites, but for sake of the fact they may not have a resonance score and all, they should probably build their signal off their own Charisma score like a technomancer/Sprite does, except you could give them a 'fetter' of sorts, where they inhabit a particular device as they progress. It depends just how similar they are, cause normally losing all matrix access destroys sprites unless they are merged into a device (and also knock out a Technomancers rating). If they are brains successfully made into a complex program, theoretically they should be fine as long as they are inhabiting a single device that is on, but if they exist in part due to the Wave, they would suffer the same as normal.
I would honestly keep the "BCs are dangerous for you" angle. The book explicitly says:
EotM, on Resonance Natives, wrote:A Roaming AI is an artificial intelligence which for whatever reason has been able to escape
the hardware which originally contained it.

As with Sprites some of these have ways to counter BCs (Clarity, Filter, Merge), but most should be vulnerable to BCs in the same way Sprites and TMs are.


EDIT: Just got the question answered by Frank. They weren't meant to be PCs at all. Well, Homebrew it is!
Last edited by Trill on Sun Mar 11, 2018 8:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Trill »

Since AIs are not supposed to be PCs, and there is nothing to build them from, I think we need to create a sub-subsystem from basically scratch.
A few questions:
AIs are basically pure code/waveform/mumbojumbo, and thus don't have a physical manifestation. This means that all the points they'd put into physical stats can be put into mental and matrix stats. If their matrix stats aren't independent from their mental stats, then the boxes to put points into shrink further into 6. CHA, INT, LOG, WIL, RES, EDG. and if we make them have a Rating, then only that one is there. Obviously having less independent stats means higher power (if costs stay the same) in exchange for less variety (since you've linearized the stat distribution)
So first:
  • How independent should their stats be? This ranges from fully (each stat can be put independent from each other) through partial (mental stats are independent, but the matrix stats key off them, like with TMs) to linear (you have a rating and can only increase the average, not their relation to each other)
  • If more linear: May the player increase or decrease the Attributes additionally? If you take a Industry Sprite as your template, make it R5, can you then increase or decrease the stats you got from it? Can you raise the CHA from 4 to 6? Can you lower the LOG from 7 to 5?
  • How much should an increase cost? This also depends on the previous question. Obviously they should cost more, since they don't have to put points into Physical stats at all. Going more linear should have a higher price (if the cost gives you one more INT or a one point higher System rating, then that should be less than if it got you a mental stat and a matrix stat, and that should be less than if it got you an increase of all your stats (except possibly EDG and RES)
  • Should RES be an independent Attributes no matter how linear you make AIs?
  • How would you deal with bodies? As far as I know there are no Anthroform drones. Should they be matrix only, with the possibility to Merge with a drone?
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Post by Coldstone »

Sorry I went quiet on this myself. RL attacked. I'll make some thoughts and ideas after work in the morning.
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Post by Trill »

So a long time upthread Virgil asked if Pain Editor could be a piece of software (since commlinks in EotM can manipulate neurons), which Frank okayed with a shrug. But I wonder how powerful the Pain Editor software should be compared to the Bioware version.
I definitely follow the reasoning of Frank that things costing essence should be better than things not costing essence, and I'm also trying to incorporate the Rating into it.
Some things to consider
  • The Bioware version is obviously harder to disrupt. Not only because it is implanted in the body, but also because it is purely biological. It doesn't run any OS that can be crashed.
  • The program version should be C range. Not only do you need to receive the current neuronal activity but also send signals to block those related to pain. This means it's H(LOS) or greater.
  • It being C means that you can provide it to people as long as you are connected to them.
  • Rating should probably change the strength of it. I'm not sure if it should reduce Penalties, increase the boxes before you take penalties or something else.
Pain Limiter(Computer)

Type: B Range: C Time: CA(S)
While Pain is a very useful warning that the body needs to rest and recuperate, it can become a chore or even dangerous if it distracts you from things happening around. By selectively dampening neuronal pathways carrying pain signals, you can reduce the pain felt. While this can prevent you from being hindered by it, it also dulls the senses.
Activating the Pain Limiter reduces the penalties due to damage by its Rating. It also prevents you from becoming unconscious from damage overflow. On the negative side it inflicts a -2 penalty to touch and heat based perception. Trying to activate it on an unwilling subject calls for a LOG+Exploit vs. Firewall+Willpower+Cybercombat(if any) test.

EDIT: What I probably should have added: Is this too weak/strong? Are there any objections to it using Computer to activate normally, but Exploit to activate in unwilling people?
Last edited by Trill on Tue May 01, 2018 9:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Lokathor »

For those of you who used the gitbook version, it's moved to a new home on github!

Repo: https://github.com/thegamingden/the-ends-of-the-matrix

Rendered: https://thegamingden.github.io/the-ends-of-the-matrix/
[*]The Ends Of The Matrix: Github and Rendered
[*]After Sundown: Github and Rendered
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Post by Trill »

Any particular reason for that?
Mord, on Cosmic Horror wrote:Today if I say to the man on the street, "Did you know that the world you live in is a fragile veneer of normality over an uncaring universe, that we could all die at any moment at the whim of beings unknown to us for reasons having nothing to do with ourselves, and that as far as the rest of the universe is concerned, nothing anyone ever did with their life has ever mattered?" his response, if any, will be "Yes, of course; now if you'll excuse me, I need to retweet Sonic the Hedgehog." What do you even do with that?
JigokuBosatsu wrote:"In Hell, The Revolution Will Not Be Affordable"
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