Holy Shit, it's a boss fight!

[Koumei]

So there was a discussion on boss fights, and I suggested the possibility of multi-segment bosses, ala Grandia (and to a lesser degree, Final Fantasy and Suikoden). It had been suggested by someone before, too. Let's try putting this in motion:

Troll King (CR 10 - at this level you can fight trolls in groups of four)
Large Giant
Consisting of: Head, Body, Left Arm, Right Arm
Str 25, Dex 14, Con 25, Int 10, Wis 11, Cha 10
Head:
4d8+28 (46 HP)
AC: 20 (+1 size, +2 Dexterity, +7 natural)
Regeneration 10 (fire/acid)
Fort +11 Ref +3 Will +1
Scent, Darkvision 120', Low Light Vision
Controls the Body
Bite +11 (1d6+7)
Rage (Ex): if wounded, as a move action the head can send the rest of the body into a rage, granting +20 Temporary HP to each arm and the body, as well as a +2 morale bonus to Fortitude saves, +2 to hit and +2 damage.

Body:
12d8+84 (138 HP)
Damage Reduction 5/adamantine
AC: 19 (-1 size, +2 Dexterity, +8 natural)
Regeneration 10 (fire/acid)
Fort +15 Ref +6 Will +4
Controls the Arms
Move speed: 30'
Trample: Whenever moving over Medium (or smaller) creatures, it can make a trample attack, dealing 1d8+10 damage if they fail a Reflex save (DC 23).

Each Arm:
4d8+28 (46 HP)
AC: 19 (+2 Dexterity, +7 natural)
Regeneration 10 (fire/acid)
Fort +11 Ref +3 Will +1
Claw +11 (1d6+7)

Special:
If the body dies, any remaining body parts may each make one attack against the nearest living creature in range. The arms then also die.

If the head dies, the body must make a Fortitude save (DC equals the damage dealt) or also die. Even if it passes, it takes 4d8 damage and becomes Blind, Deaf and Confused.

Rend: if both arms strike with their claw attacks, it deals a free Rend attack for 2d8+10 damage.

---

What do people think?

[SphereOfFeetMan]

What do people think?

Koumei, I think the fundamental idea has merit. Your particular example has some flaws, but those are easily fixed.

First off, nothing is really gained by having multiple slightly different numbers in saves or ac or the like. You should want to unify the numbers as much as you can. Keep the needless book-keeping to a minimum. The only number that really stands out as needing to be different is hp.

If you want different body parts to be inherently different thematically and mechanically, make a centralized design framework. For example, you give the body a +4 will save and the head a +1 will save. This is needless bookkeeping as I stated above, and it isn't interesting. Instead you could make every body part except the head immune to mind-affecting effects. You could come up with a templated list of resistances, immunities, and vulnerabilities for different body parts. Once you had the centralized template down, you would just know it, and you wouldn't need to reference the sheet very often.

Also, the only reason you would want multi-segmented bosses would be if each segment did something cool on its own.

So the stat block might look something like this: (a sketch)

Unified numbers block (Ac, saves, skills, etc)

Head: One cool, appropriate, unique ability. Hp.
Body: A different cool, appropriate, unique ability. Hp.
etc.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Koumei,

I think you should propose this idea to Frank for inclusion in TNE. I think your suggestion has the possibility of solving a lot of problems, and could create new stories and combat dynamics.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'll add that the part where killing the head (or the body) spreads that kill to the rest of the monster sort of takes away from the part where it's supposed to be four monsters pretending to be one creature.

Each part really does have to be kind of independent, with a full range of actions to take, and its own independent existence. So 'killing' the head prevents the Troll King from taking head-related actions (it's likely that only the Head has ranks in Intimidate, for instance), but that no more affects the rest of the beast than killing the party Rogue makes the party Cleric take an SoD. In flavor, you have not decapitated the beast, you have merely injured part of a creature to the point where it no longer uses that part. Maybe call it 'tearing off the mandible' so the creature can no longer bite or enunciate. Unless you write the rest of the beast's parts as blind with short range Tremorsense or whatever, it should still be able to see fine.

In a similar way, while the Arms will presumably be making Full Attacks fairly often, they need something to do with their Move actions if it ever comes up. I propose at least giving them a move speed so the TK can brachiate around. They should probably also have some kind of Sweeping Arm option which gives the benefits of Flanking.

Also, I'd simulate the regeneration by having the Body 'cast' healing effects on the whole composite. That way you can write killing the Body as 'cutting out it's foul heart,' or whatever, which makes sense that it would stop the regen.

[Koumei]

Good ideas all round. When I try my hand at Lolth and a dragon, I'll keep those in mind. The same stats for all parts, but with a hierarchy of control, different HP for the various pieces and different sets of abilities.

For the Dragon, I was thinking:
Head (gaze, bite, breath weapon)
Body + Legs (claws, land speed, heals the rest)
2 Wings (wing attacks, flight, dust storms, shielding the head/body)
Tail (tail slap, grappling, tail sweep)

For Lolth:
Main Deity - the human part (spells, speaking-based abilities, poison bite)
Thorax with 6 legs (move speed, trample, stinger, web abilities, healing)
2 large front claws/legs (claw attacks, grapple, shielding)

She'll also generally have a large web section that she can use to retreat to and hide in, and it has HP and unleashes webs and poison effects.

[JonSetanta]

Troll looks great. No complaints from me, I'd use it straight out, but maybe with some ability-granting item splashes here and there and some per-encounter maneuvers and spells like an AOE and a transportation.

For Lolth, if you do with each of her 6 spider legs as a separate piece, your should have all of them lumped to one category rather than individual sections.
Each leg would have 20 HP or so but they aren't 'lost' in a traditional sense.
For every 20 damage dealt to "Leg Group", a penalty to movement and AC is imposed. The penalty stacks 6 times before capping off.

[Koumei]

Adult Red Dragon (CR 15)
Huge Dragon (Fire)
Str 30 Dex 10 Con 25 Int 15 Wis 14 Cha 20
HD: 20d12+300 (430 HP - see below)
Init +4
BAB/Grapple: +20/+40 (including bonus from the head)
Fort +19 Ref +12 Will +14
AC: 28 (-2 size, +0 Dex, +20 natural), flat 28, touch 8
Feats: Imp. Toughness, Alertness, Imp. Initiative, Snatch, Power Attack, Multi-Attack, Imp. Multi-Attack
Special: Dragon immunities, Fire subtype, Blindsense 60', Darkvision 120', Low Light Vision, Detect Magic (Sp) at will, Identify (Sp, Full-round action) at will

Hit Point Multipliers: Head x0.5, Body x1, Wings x0.1, Tail x0.5

Head (Controls the Body)
HP: 215/215
*Makes all mental decisions, skill checks and actions
Bite Attack +28 (2d6+15)
Breath Weapon (Su): 60' cone of fire every 1d4+1 rounds
15d10 Fire damage, Ref half (DC 27)
- failed save: catch fire for 3 rounds (2d6 Fire + Will save vs panic)
Gaze Attack (Su): Move action, 30' range, Will DC 25 vs paralysis 1 round
See Invisible (Ex)
Provides a +2 bonus to the body to make grapple checks
*If the head is reduced to 0HP, all features except the ability to make mental decisions and actions are lost. It must then rely on Blindsense 60'

Body (Controls the Tail and Wings)
HP: 430/430
Move Speed: 60'
2 Claws +28 (1d8+10)
Fast Healing 10 when above 0 HP (provides Fast Healing 10 to all other locations as well)
Rejuvination (Ex): As a Move action, can spend 50 HP to rejuvinate a body location with less than 1 HP, restoring them to 20 HP.

Left Wing
HP: 43/43
Fly Speed 250' (poor) providing both wings are above 0 HP
Wing attack +28 (1d6+10)
Gust of Wind (Ex) at will
Dust Storm (Ex): As a full-round action, both wings may work together to kick up a cloud of dust, providing Concealment to the dragon. Any creature within 10' with less than a +4 armour or natural armour bonus takes 2d6 slashing damage each round
Shielding: As an immediate action, a wing may protect the head, redirecting all damage and effects towards itself.

Right Wing
HP: 43/43
Fly Speed 250' (poor) providing both wings are above 0 HP
Wing attack +28 (1d6+10)
Gust of Wind (Ex) at will
Dust Storm (Ex): As a full-round action, both wings may work together to kick up a cloud of dust, providing Concealment to the dragon. Any creature within 10' with less than a +4 armour or natural armour bonus takes 2d6 slashing damage each round
Shielding: As an immediate action, a wing may protect the head, redirecting all damage and effects towards itself.


Tail
HP: 215/215
Tail Slap +28 (1d8+15)
Tail Sweep (Ex): As a standard action, the tail may sweep a 15' cone. All in the area must make a DC 30 Reflex save or take 1d8+15 damage and fall prone.
The tail can make separate grapple attacks, with a -5 penalty for a total of +33
Shielding: As an immediate action, the tail may protect the body, redirecting all damage and effects towards itself.

---

So, how about this one? Now, when any given location is damaged enough, the creature simply loses access to its abilities. A few of the ones players are likely to ignore can provide shielding to more vital locations, and in general it takes a fair bit of whacking to defeat.

[CatharzGodfoot]

A legless dragon?

[Koumei]

And now, for the spider-goddess. Yes, I got the idea to cover her from fighting Melony in Odin Sphere.

Lolth the Spider Queen (CR 20, Deity, Divine Rank 5)
Huge Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar)
Str 30 Dex 17 Con 40 Int 30 Wis 31 Cha 31
HD: maximised 20d8+300 (460 HP - see below)
Init +12
BAB/Grapple: +20/+43
Fort +37 Ref +25 Will +32
AC: 46 (-2 size, +3 Dex, +20 natural, +10 Cha deflection, +5 profane)
Special: Outsider features, Deific features and immunities
Resistances: Fire 30, Acid 30, Electric 30, Cold 30, Sonic 30
Immunities: death effects, negative levels, poison, disease, ability damage/drain, blindness, deafness, silence, shape-altering effects, paralysis, sleep, charm and domination effects

Feats: Multi-attack, Improved Multi-attack, Imp. Init, Alertness, Persuasive, Run, Endurance
Powers: Summon Driders (5 at a time)

Hit Point Multipliers: Thorax x1.5, Main Body x1, Left Claw x0.5, Right Claw x0.5

Main Body: (Controls the Thorax)
HP: 460
Bite +33 (1d8+20 plus poison, 20 x3)
Handles all speech, vision, hearing and mental abilities
Has hands that can wield weapons and manipulate items
Poison: DC 40, 2d6 Str/2d6 Con
(Sp) at will, DC 35, CL 20:
-Chained Contagion
-Chained Poison
-Energy Drain
-Acid Fog
-Confusion
-Web
-Summon Swarm
-Creeping Doom
-Summon Monster IX (spiders only)

Thorax: (controls claws)
HP: 690
Sting +33 (2d6+20 plus poison)
Move speed: 50'
*Special: when reduced below 640 HP, speed is 45' and -2 Dex penalty
Below 590 HP, speed is 40' and -4 Dex penalty
Below 540 HP, speed is 35' and -6 Dex penalty
Below 490 HP, speed is 30' and -8 Dex penalty
Below 440 HP, speed is 25' and -10 Dex penalty
Below 390 HP, speed is 20' and -12 Dex penalty
Web (Ex):
At will, a stream of web can be thrown as a ranged touch attack (+26) to a range of 50'. If it hits, the target is entangled for 3 rounds (or until they make a DC 40 Escape Artist check to escape). If already entangled, they are rendered immobile for 5 rounds.
Able to move without hindrance on webs
All ground in a 15' radius is considered difficult terrain to all except Lolth.
Fast Healing 20 when HP is above 0. Provides Fast Healing 10 to all other locations.
Rejuvination (Su): The thorax may take 345 damage (if it has that much or more) to restore all other locations to full health.

Left Claw:
HP: 230
Climb Speed: 100' (both claws required)
Impale +33 (2d6+15)
Rend: If one target is hit by both claws in the one round, they take an additional 4d6+30 damage and begin bleeding at the rate of 5 hit points per round. Multiple rend attacks cause cumulative damage.
Shielding (Ex): As an immediate action, the claw may shield the thorax or main body, redirecting all damage and effects towards it.

Right Claw:
HP: 230
Climb Speed: 100' (both claws required)
Impale +33 (2d6+15)
Rend: If one target is hit by both claws in the one round, they take an additional 4d6+30 damage and begin bleeding at the rate of 5 hit points per round. Multiple rend attacks cause cumulative damage.
Shielding (Ex): As an immediate action, the claw may shield the thorax or main body, redirecting all damage and effects towards it.

Special:
In Lolth's lair, suspended 500' above the ground is an enormous web, 500' in radius. Every 5' square has Hardness 10 and 25 hit points, however only eight anchor points need be destroyed for it to cave in. Doing so covers the ground in a Choking Webs effect. If it is not destroyed/caved in, then on any round it may do one of the following on Lolth's turn:
*summon a Colossal Monstrous Spider
*cast Stinking Cloud (DC 35) as a spell-like ability, CL 20
*Send strands down to "teleport" Lolth up to safety
*Make a ranged touch attack (+26) to bind a foe, paralysing them and suspending them 10' above the ground until it performs a different action, the web section is destroyed, or the target makes a DC 40 Escape Artist check. Every round, it constricts them for 10d6 damage.

[Maxus]

I really like this. Heh, it could actually be a video game boss fight.

But how do you handle casting save-or-dies on body parts? What about burning the web?

[Koumei]

The web could be burned just like the spell, I suppose.

A SoD on an individual body part would cause that body part to drop to 0 HP, I guess. Shielding will still work (so a claw could take the death effect for Lolth's main body), and if a section has any "upon reduced to/below 0 HP" effects, they will trigger. Likewise, they can be regenerated as though whacked down to 0 if the creature possesses such an ability.

I just realised that area effect attacks may be a problem. I'm divided between "The target is hit. One location is struck." and "Each location is hit and damaged - holy shit, there's almost a reason to care about using fireball!"

Obviously, AoE death effects can fuck off, they only affect one location. Sleep and the like would also only affect one location - so you could Hold Monster the dragon's head, and it can't act, but it loses control of the body in the process, so the body takes over. If the body is then held, the wing and tail can still act.

[JonSetanta]

So, the AC is same for every part?
Wouldn't it be easier to hit the thorax, yet require more hits, as opposed to each individual weak claw?

[Koumei]

That was my original idea - mostly giving varying natural armour and size bonuses, but it was decided it'd be simpler if the majority of static attributes were the same across the board.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Ideally, you want to design a boss monster so that each party will attack its weaknesses according to their strengths. So you would want some parties to choose to go after the wings first, and some to go after the body first, etc. For example, the wings on the dragon have too little hp. They will be first target every time.

The main attraction of multi-segment bosses is that they can keep up with the party's actions. As such, each segment of the boss should be relevant until the entire creature is dead. Otherwise it is just as if there were 5 individual creatures, and when one dies, the party ignores it and goes on to the next.

So instead, each segment would have 3 conditions: Alive, wounded, and dead. If a segment has hit points left it is alive, if it is dropped below 0 hp it is wounded, and when every segment dies, the creature is dead. This way, every segment is relevant, and the boss has 5 actions a round right until the end.

As a result of this change, each segment needs a list of which abilities are usable when alive, and which are usable wounded.

As an example: The dragons wings can use: Fly speed 150ft, Dust Storm, Shielding, Gust of Wind, and an attack when alive. When wounded, the dragons wings can only use: Fly speed 90ft, Gust of Wind, and attack.

[angelfromanotherpin]

As such, each segment of the boss should be relevant until the entire creature is dead. Otherwise it is just as if there were 5 individual creatures, and when one dies, the party ignores it and goes on to the next.

What's the problem with that? Seriously. The whole setup is based on pretending that multiple creatures standing under a tarp are one creature. If you're fighting an opposing adventuring party and you gank their Cleric, he doesn't get to hang around doing things just because their Rogue is still up and active. Similarly, after you kill the creature that represents the dragon's tail, you no longer care about that tail any more than you would about that Cleric's corpse. The Boss is 5 individual creature for all purposes but flavor, and that really is the point.

So instead, each segment would have 3 conditions: Alive, wounded, and dead. If a segment has hit points left it is alive, if it is dropped below 0 hp it is wounded, and when every segment dies, the creature is dead. This way, every segment is relevant, and the boss has 5 actions a round right until the end.

Why should the boss be guaranteed its full complement of actions all the time? The party isn't guaranteed that - PCs get eliminated from fights all the time. If the Boss is losing action parity by taking attrition, it should be keeping action parity by inflicting attrition.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

What's the problem with that? Seriously. The whole setup is based on pretending that multiple creatures standing under a tarp are one creature.

Some problems:
If the boss loses all of the abilities from a limb as it is killed, then it loses iconic abilities much faster than a non-segmented boss would. For example, you don't want to remove the boss dragons ability to fly after 43 hp. A big part of a dragons iconic nature is its ability to fly, and it should keep it until it goes down.

Additionally, it keeps the dramatic tension high. It becomes boring if you've killed 4 out of 5 parts and you spend the last two rounds plinking away on the last arm, when it can't do anything to you.

How is "pretending that multiple creatures standing under a tarp are one creature" at all a good thematic design point? It is a joke that describes the situation, and we can move beyond it.

Why should the boss be guaranteed its full complement of actions all the time?

As I said, it shouldn't. Its actions are greatly diminished when a limb is wounded.

The party isn't guaranteed that - PCs get eliminated from fights all the time. If the Boss is losing action parity by taking attrition, it should be keeping action parity by inflicting attrition.

The boss is losing its best actions when its limbs becomes wounded. There are two reasons why it should keep some functionality in "killed" limbs. Firstly, it is a boss fight and should be difficult. Secondly, since it is connected, it is inherently less mobile and at a disadvantage. Therefore it should have some abilities that counter the weaknesses of segmented bosses.

[Koumei]

I'm not sure which I agree with - on the one hand, it already has more HP as a whole, and there needs to be a benefit to taking sections out, but on the other, merely reducing the options "dead" sections have is benefit enough and avoids situations where an immobile foe lies there and the PCs back away and plink it with arrows.

Any other things people want me to attempt?

I'm going to try the Marilith at some point, divided into "snake tail", "woman" and individual arms (each having a "shield" ability and an attack, nothing special). But I'm wondering if I can realistically give the arms a meaningful amount of HP - people would think it odd if they took as much of a beating as the snake tail, yet it'd be pointless if one hit took each arm out (although that IS 6 saves for the main body).

[angelfromanotherpin]

If the boss loses all of the abilities from a limb as it is killed, then it loses iconic abilities much faster than a non-segmented boss would. For example, you don't want to remove the boss dragons ability to fly after 43 hp. A big part of a dragons iconic nature is its ability to fly, and it should keep it until it goes down.

Actually, the ability to target a creature's wings to ground it really seems like a feature to me. But if you want to have a creature that flies even once its Wings segment is 'taken out,' have the Wings cast Mass Fly on the entire conglomerate before (or as) they die.

Additionally, it keeps the dramatic tension high. It becomes boring if you've killed 4 out of 5 parts and you spend the last two rounds plinking away on the last arm, when it can't do anything to you.

Dramatic tension is all well and good but once again, if you've taken out 75% of a Boss enemy, it should have taken a good chunk out of your group, and that's the tension.

Its actions are greatly diminished when a limb is wounded.

That's a direct contradiction to what you said before, which was 'the boss has 5 actions a round until the very end.' As you've described it, its options are reduced, but its actions aren't. That's like saying 'hey Cleric, you died, but all that means is you can't use your highest spell level any more. Feel free to remain fully active until every single one of your friends also dies.'

There are two reasons why it should keep some functionality in "killed" limbs. Firstly, it is a boss fight and should be difficult.

Fighting an equal number of equal-level enemies isn't inherently difficult enough? Those enemies have to have some kind of bullshit death-immunity as well?

Secondly, since it is connected, it is inherently less mobile and at a disadvantage. Therefore it should have some abilities that counter the weaknesses of segmented bosses.

Rubbish. The disadvantages of having four creatures essentially all 'riding' each other are more or less matched by the advantages.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I'm not sure which I agree with - on the one hand, it already has more HP as a whole, and there needs to be a benefit to taking sections out, but on the other, merely reducing the options "dead" sections have is benefit enough and avoids situations where an immobile foe lies there and the PCs back away and plink it with arrows.

Why should the foe have to be immobile? A Rogue isn't immobile just because his buddies are dead. All the parts should have a move speed. Some setups can only have one segment use their move speed a turn, and some can have multiple segments use their move speeds in one turn depending; but having a part of a composite creature without a move score is like having a party member without a move score – ridiculous.

The creature isn't dead, with one blind worm of an arm squirming helplessly on its shoulder. A composite creature with one Arm segment left alive is like the T-800 at the end of Terminator - reduced, but still very much operative and able to kill.

I'm going to try the Marilith at some point, divided into "snake tail", "woman" and individual arms (each having a "shield" ability and an attack, nothing special). But I'm wondering if I can realistically give the arms a meaningful amount of HP - people would think it odd if they took as much of a beating as the snake tail, yet it'd be pointless if one hit took each arm out (although that IS 6 saves for the main body).

Here's how I'd do it. Assuming the Marilith is meant to be CR 17 as per the SRD, and using the usual guidelines, it should be 4 CR 13 monsters. If Woman and Snake are each CR 13 entities, then each of the arms should be CR ~10.

So stat up Woman as a 13th level Cleric (or Conduit 10/something else 3), the Arms as whatever mix of 10th level Tome Fighters and Tome Knights floats your boat, and the Snake as a Fiendish Brute 10/something else 3 with Large Size and Constricting Fiend and so forth. Then everyone rides Snake, who can benefit from the defensive Ride checks of like 7 characters, and the Designate Opponent/Foil Action of the arms should be significant protection for the other parts. That's the baseline I'd start with, and then trim back the less-optimal options until I wasn't overwhelmed by the choices that horror would require of me in one round.

[Koumei]

A rogue, however, doesn't have his buddies tied to him. I can't see the wings contributing flight at all if they're taken out, and I see the advantage in players saying "Go for the wings, bring it down to our level!"

Likewise, the head and the tail aren't really going to do much good for movement, because they have several tons of inactive dragon stuck to them.

As it stands, I'm leaning towards "If a location hits 0 HP, it's out of the fight until something else brings it back - tail gets broken or hacked off, wings are snapped at the joints, or completely shredded, etc."

Except that makes "It survives even though the head and body are at 0" kind of weird. I think I might worry about it later, or let other people come in and debate it.

MARILITH:
CR 17 Large Outsider (Chaotic, Evil, Extraplanar, Tanar'ri, Scaled)
HD: technically 86, Counts as having 17?
Segments: Tail, Woman, 6 Arms
Str 22 Dex 14 Con 20 Int 12 Wis 13 Cha 18
AC: 42 (+20 natural, +2 Dex, -1 size, +1 insight, +4 armour, +4 shield, +2 Dodge)
flat 38
touch 14
FORT +15 REF +14 WILL +11
BAB/Grapple: +17/+30 (+2 for each limb beyond the first two)
Darkvision 60', Low-light Vision
Greater Teleport (self+50lbs)
Immune to Electricity, Poison, Fear, Sleep and Fire
Resistance 10: Cold, Acid
Spell Resistance 26

Woman (controls the rest)
HP: 10d6+3d8+78 (126)
-possesses all mental abilities and vision
-Feats: Heighten SLA, Improved Toughness, Otherworldly Countenance (Fascinate: DC 22), Demonic Skin, Precognitive Visions (AC)
-Bonus Feats: Devour the Soul, Greater Teleport
-Spheres: Carnage (B), Heresy (B), Terror (B), Venom (B), Violation (B)
-All SLAs are [Evil] and deal Vile damage
-Immune to Destroyed/Commanded from Turn/Rebuke Outsiders
-Demoralise as a free action 1/round (+24 Intimidate)
-Immunity to Poison
-Telepathy + Detect Thoughts

(Sp:) CL 13, DC 22
1/day: Circle of Death, G. Planar Binding, Eyebite, Unhallow, Flensing
2/day: Disintegrate, Dispel Good, Symbol of Fear, Major Creation (Poison), Geas
3/day: Flesh Shiver, L. Planar Ally, Phantasmal Killer, Cloudkill, L. Planar Binding
4/day: Blade Barrier, Unholy Sword, Fear, Mind Poison, Dominate Poison
5/day: Lahm's Finger Darts, MC Against Good, Halt Undead, Bestow Curse, Modify Memory
6/day: Blade of Fear and Pain, Scare, Poison, Suggestion
7/day: Seething Eyebane, Align Weapon (Evil), Cause Fear, Hypnotism
13/day: Desecrate

Spellcasting, 6th level Sorceress:
Cantrips, DC 14, 6/day: Who cares?
1st Level, DC 15, 7/day: Mage Armour, Mighty Wallop, Shield, Sleep
2nd Level, DC 16, 6/day: Web, Torrent of Tears
3rd Level, DC 17, 4/day: Fly

---

The rest is now complete, see below. It looks pretty hardcore, and an actual decent challenge. Now, it's also a horrible mess of part X gaining a bonus which is applied to the whole thing, BAB, sklls and saves being based on a 17 HD Outsider etc. but seeing as it is designed to exist as a monster, that's okay. It was never going to be a smooth blend, ending up as 8 actual critters.

[Koumei]

Serpent Tail (supports the rest)
HP: 10d10+3d12+104 (177)
-Special: Strength 27 Con 25, Fort +17
-Movement speed: 50'
-Stability (+4 to avoid being tripped, on top of +4 for Large)
-Fast Healing 1 when not enraged
-Rage: as a RoW Barbarian, +1d6 Rage damage, DR 3/-
-Battle Hardened (may use Fort save instead of Will save, ignore compulsions during Rage)
-Feats: Imp. Toughness, Power Attack, Leap Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike, Constricting Fiend, Large Size, Improved Natural Attack: Tail, Dash, Improved Grapple, Chokehold (DC 26)
-Improved Grab
-Tail Slap +24 (4d6+12 plus grab)
--Charging +20 (4d6+24 plus grab)
-Raging Tail Slap: +26 (5d6+14 plus grab)
--Charging +20 (5d6+30 plus grab)
-Grapple +30 (6d6+12 plus Fort vs passing out for 1 minute, DC 26)
(-5 if no arms are used, +0 for one arm assisting, +2 for every other arm assisting)
--Raging Grapple +30 (7d6+14, all else remains the same)

If the tail is slain, the rest can still crawl forward at 10' per round. As long as the woman is still alive, the tail will continue to benefit from fast healing, no matter how far into the negatives its HP happens to be.

---

Arm (all 6 arms use the same stats)
HP: 10d12+50 (115)
-Swift Resist Energy 14 (Ex)
-DR 5/-
-Move Action: remove all ability damage/drain
-Grants Evasion to the woman and snake tail
-Quick Recovery
-Mettle
-Sacrifice: Immediate action, take the attack for another body part
-Designate Opponent: Swift, +10d6
-Large +1 Wounding Longsword +22 (2d6+7 plus 1 Con)
--Designated foe +22 (12d6+7 plus 1 Con)
-Swift: set unattended object on fire within Medium range

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Actually, the ability to target a creature's wings to ground it really seems like a feature to me.

Right. The dragons mobility should suffer when the party attacks its wings. But it shouldn't lose its entire fly speed when it has taken only minor damage.

But if you want to have a creature that flies even once its Wings segment is 'taken out,' have the Wings cast Mass Fly on the entire conglomerate before (or as) they die.

That's just stupid. You don't want a dragon to fly because its wings cast a spell on its body. You want a dragon to fly because it has huge fucking wings.

That's a direct contradiction to what you said before, which was 'the boss has 5 actions a round until the very end.'

Actually, its not, I used ambiguous language. Its actions are greatly diminished, they are worth much less because they cannot perform their best tricks. It still has the same number of actions.

Rubbish. The disadvantages of having four creatures essentially all 'riding' each other are more or less matched by the advantages.

Rubbish. The disadvantages of having 5 enemies all glued together are huge. Lets list some of them:

-Loss of mobility. You are down to 1/5 of the mobility of 5 individual creatures. This means that your ability to divide the party's attention is gone. There is only one front line, one focus of attention.
-Single target pushes. Any ability that moves or slows an enemy is fivefold as powerful.
-Battlefield control. Since there is only one target, you will have a chance to affect it with your battlefield control abilities 100% of the time. Versus 5 enemies, it is unlikely you will be able affect everyone with your battlefield control abilities.

[angelfromanotherpin]

That's just stupid. You don't want a dragon to fly because its wings cast a spell on its body. You want a dragon to fly because it has huge fucking wings.

You are totally conflating mechanics with flavor. This whole setup is about having the flavor be anything you want as long as the mechanics work.

-Loss of mobility. You are down to 1/5 of the mobility of 5 individual creatures. This means that your ability to divide the party's attention is gone. There is only one front line, one focus of attention.
-Single target pushes. Any ability that moves or slows an enemy is fivefold as powerful.
-Battlefield control. Since there is only one target, you will have a chance to affect it with your battlefield control abilities 100% of the time. Versus 5 enemies, it is unlikely you will be able affect everyone with your battlefield control abilities.

I have no idea what you're talking about as regards mobility. The Marilith written up above can Full Move 100 feet with Snake, full attack with 3 Arms, then Greater Teleport and then full attack with the other 3 Arms. It moves considerably faster and with less restrictions due to that movement than the individual creatures would.

For the same reason, slow effects are actually less effective. putting a Slow effect on Snake means that the above round of actions is changed only in that the Snake movement is now 50 feet. The horror is largely undiminished. Even if you got a Slow effect on every single segment of the composite Marilith, it is still far less screwed than a normal Marilith under a Slow effect.

Composite creatures are also highly resistant to battlefield control, as you can't do what most battlefield control does and divide the enemy into smaller more manageable groups.

Now, there are some actual weaknesses to the 'monsters-under-a-tarp' setup. It can't flank with itself, and area effects more reliably target the entire opposition as examples. You're also right about 'push' effects, where moving Snake will move everyone riding him (though I'm not sure why anyone would ever care). Keep in mind, though, that those are weaknesses it would have if it were a single badass monster anyway.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

This whole setup is about having the flavor be anything you want as long as the mechanics work.

Right. So I stated that a dragon should have a slower fly speed when its wings are damaged. And to implement this, I suggested that the dragon have a lower fly speed with its wings.

You suggested that the wings cast a spell on the dragons body. That spell can be dispelled, and then the dragon can't fly. Your mechanics don't fit the theme of the dragon.

I have no idea what you're talking about as regards mobility. The Marilith written up above can Full Move 100 feet with Snake, full attack with 3 Arms, then Greater Teleport and then full attack with the other 3 Arms. It moves considerably faster and with less restrictions due to that movement than the individual creatures would.

I was speaking specifically about the dragon. It is unhelpful when you disagree with my point by using a different example.

Composite creatures are also highly resistant to battlefield control, as you can't do what most battlefield control does and divide the enemy into smaller more manageable groups.

Divide and Conquer is only one part of battlefield control. Here are some others:
-Protecting allies from attack.
-Restricting monster movement.
-Redirecting the focus of the monster.
-Setting up attacks by the party.
-Forcing the monster to make bad choices.
-Eliminating the monsters ability to retreat.
-Ensuring the party's ability to retreat.
-etc.

All these factors, and more, make battlefield control abilities much more debilitating to a single monster than a group.

Now, there are some actual weaknesses to the 'monsters-under-a-tarp' setup. It can't flank with itself, and area effects more reliably target the entire opposition as examples. You're also right about 'push' effects, where moving Snake will move everyone riding him (though I'm not sure why anyone would ever care). Keep in mind, though, that those are weaknesses it would have if it were a single badass monster anyway.

Keep in mind that we were discussing the loss of mobility of one segmented monster compared to 5 individual monsters.

[angelfromanotherpin]

So I stated that a dragon should have a slower fly speed when its wings are damaged. And to implement this, I suggested that the dragon have a lower fly speed with its wings.

No, you suggested that a creature that has been killed should still function as a mount, except that it's slower now. It also gets to take all its actions, except that they're lower level. So, basically, when part of a composite creature is killed, it's replaced with a similar part that's slightly lower level and also immortal until every single one of its friends is killed.

You think that this is justified by the restrictions a composite monster faces, and I don't. I've made my arguments, and I'm done on this subject.