Eberron Sucks?

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 10:58 pm

I have heard several people's opinions on Eberron here. I have mostly heard negative comments.

I want to know what it is about the setting that is so bad.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:11 pm

Every D&D setting has to answer the basic questions of what the fucking hell happens when the setting hits the high level stuff and goes crazy. They have done so with various degrees of success. Greyhawk straight up said that people got to high level only infrequently and actually had them tear the setting in half from time to time, it was kind of cool. Forgotten Realms went on a much less believable route and claimed that somehow high level D&D effects all over the place "balanced out" and that this would make some sort of equilibrium. And while that was lame, Planescape introduced a much more believable equilibrium where all the players seriously had infinite power and infinite territory and were fighting over proportions of that infinity rather than specific locations. Spelljammer had a really weird system going where magical effects seriously accumulated to the point where they no longer fit on planets and then they fought interstellar wars against each other Space 1889 style. And Birthright took the Greyhawk thing to the next level by actually hard coding the lack of level gain into the setting itself.

Eberron responds to the questions of high level interactions by handwaving it all away and saying that all the big important people died recently in the last war. So basically the entire setting is a giant cop out that has no staying power and the entire game world will seriously come crashing down the moment the player characters get access to wall of iron, fabricate, and a craft skill.

Seriously it's written into the actual setting that everyone who would be able to run Wish Economics is busy or dead. So while you still can do it just by adventuring for a few weeks, the setting is directly, completely, and explicitly incapable of actually staying recognizable once you do that.

So Eberron is a basic failure of a setting. The DM has to make up on the fly what happens to the entire setting the moment the PCs become powerful and start asking to interact with the world, because the game world has no institutions at all to deal with such characters inherently.

-Username17

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:16 pm

I always assumed that the Dragonmarked Houses had all the Fabricate, Wall of Iron, and such loopholes, and that they controlled the game setting in a way that the megacorps control the Shadowrun setting.

So Eberron's schtick is that there is no high level antagonists exploiting the hell out of magic?

P.S. What did Birthright do to restrict high levels?

Leress · Post by **Leress** » Wed Jun 18, 2008 11:37 pm

Except for the fact that Dragonmarked House can't really do that because of this ability...

SRD on Spellbooks wrote: Spellbooks

A wizard must study her spellbook each day to prepare her spells. She cannot prepare any spell not recorded in her spellbook, except for read magic, which all wizards can prepare from memory.

A wizard begins play with a spellbook containing all 0-level wizard spells (except those from her prohibited school or schools, if any; see School Specialization, below) plus three 1st-level spells of your choice. For each point of Intelligence bonus the wizard has, the spellbook holds one additional 1st-level spell of your choice. At each new wizard level, she gains two new spells of any spell level or levels that she can cast (based on her new wizard level) for her spellbook. At any time, a wizard can also add spells found in other wizards’ spellbooks to her own.

Wizards just get those spells. Hell the new class of the setting, the Artificer, breaks the setting in half by level seven.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 12:38 am

Leress wrote:Hell the new class of the setting, the Artificer, breaks the setting in half by level seven.

Is that because Artificers can transfer magic items into experience?

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:42 am

Only partly. They also just innately break all the rules for crafting. You can seriously have a portable hole stocked up as a 'arcane laboratory' for item creation, staff it with the crafter haemonculus and pop your head in every so often to do the UMD checks to finish the items. Plus they can explicitly stack metamagic feats on wand and staves, so you pretty much go off the scale as soon as you can make wands. At level... 7 or 8, or whatever it is, you can start mass producing wands that work out to wands of <persistent> <whatever-spell-you-want>. And then you just take a bandoleer of wands of save or lose (at least 2 of for each saving throw), and go kill whatever you feel like.

The Houses really don't control jack. They do low-level trade, at the mid-range of the gold economy, but they way they're described, they apparently are all too stupid to actually take advantage of what they can actually do. The half-elf house of storm has a fleet of airships... that they don't leverage in any way at all. They apparently just fly on fairly standardized trade routes. And hell, the gnomes actually produce the airships, and control most of the information on the continent. But they're a small weak kingdom off in one corner.

As for Birthright... its a little vague at this point, but mostly its because the rulers are literally from specific bloodlines. They're the only ones that can bond with the kingdoms they run, and more importantly, the only people (humans, anyway) that can use magic. Peasants literally can't play in the big leagues, because they can never, ever wield real power. The best most people can hope for is to become a captain of the guard, or a semi-successful merchant. Hmm. I should take another look at it after all these years, it would be interesting to look at a setting that actually addresses why D&D land actually looks like D&D land.

Cynic · Post by **Cynic** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:51 am

Jerry wrote:
Leress wrote:Hell the new class of the setting, the Artificer, breaks the setting in half by level seven.
Is that because Artificers can transfer magic items into experience?

It's their strange item creation rules which allow them to be technically two higher in CL for purposes of crafting and the crazy buck-feck rules that allow a UMD substitution for an actual spell. You also have the strange re-roll ruling that you can keep on failing up to as many days it might take to make the item plus one more last ditch effort at making it.

That makes item crafting incredibly easy. The craft pool makes it even easier because the XP cost (which shouldn't exist in the first place but since it does already shouldn't be ignored) for crafting is either reduced or ignored by crafters. THen you have what you hinted at about Artificers transfering magic items into XP.

They don't actually gain XP to level up. THey just transfer it into crafting XP. WHich is again recycled into making another item.

What leress was probably talking about is making a wand-wielding Artificer who blows through charges like he has no mother because he can just make another wand in his spare time.

At least, I surmise that is what is being talked about when the level seven reference is being made.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:11 am

It is, especially since he's crafting a wand at reduced XP costs, but able to regain the XP that should've been used, thus getting a net profit in XP with only time wasted (which is also at a reduced rate).

It does cost gold though, so I suspect that our little artificer's early creations is a wand of fabricate.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 2:43 am

FrankTrollman wrote: Eberron responds to the questions of high level interactions by handwaving it all away and saying that all the big important people died recently in the last war. So basically the entire setting is a giant cop out that has no staying power and the entire game world will seriously come crashing down the moment the player characters get access to wall of iron, fabricate, and a craft skill.

How is that different from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Planescape or any other world for that matter.

I mean, no published campaign setting uses the wish economy or anything, so you pretty much can get infinite power in any setting. I'm not sure why you'd single out Eberron specifically on that one.

lets face it, the designers didn't take into account a lot of infinite wealth tricks when they wrote the game.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:39 am

Voss wrote:Peasants literally can't play in the big leagues, because they can never, ever wield real power.

Unless Joe Peasant can somehow kill a blooded character and steal his bloodline (yes, that's how it works).

Excuse me - unless Joe Peasant happens across a beat-up, semi-unconscious, near-death blooded character and successfully CdG's him with his x4-crit scythe. Cause that's about the only way Joe Peasant wil gain a bloodline.

Koumei · Post by **Koumei** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:52 am

There are, of course, plenty of other reasons to hate Eberron:

1. Because all the "PSIONICS MAKES YOUR GAME BETTER AND IF YOU DON'T ALLOW IT I'LL GO AND CRY TO MY MUM AND/OR STORMWIND!" people have a hard-on for it. They also never shut up about how it's the best, and how you should only ever play it, and how every other "We don't fellate your stupid system and flavour of psionics." setting sucks.

2. Warforged. They're less like golems and more like robots. Get that shit out of here. Now. It's a dumb idea, and didn't surprise me that the first "Expand 4E" article was to add them as a playable race. Also, people who play Warforged are seriously unable to give them a personality, instead falling back on one of the following:
"I'm a REAL boy! Don't call me a thing! Number 5 is ALIIIIIIIVE!"
"I AM SUPERIOR, MEATBAGS!"

And the fanboys seem to take this approach of Warforged actually being a superior race, the perfect thing in existence. How any flaw, anything they do wrong, is a problem with the creator, and how anything good about them is a special trait of the rustbucket itself.

3. Every race except for Warforged can be described as follows:

"A human fucked a __________. IT BREEDS TRUE!!!!1111one"

Those are at least the things I hate the most about it. But as an endless fountain of hate when I'm in a bad mood, ask me again next time I get knocked back on a job application.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 3:57 am

Because Eberron was billed as the setting that specific takes D&Disms and integrates them into the setting. It was actually part of the point of the search- take all the shit that currently existed in D&D and shove it into the setting in a comprehensible way. But all the rulers top out at 12th level or less, and most of the underlings are lower, so it fails to take anything in the upper levels into accoutn at all.

When you get right down to it, as written, Vol, as a 1000+ year old half-dragon/elf lich girl w/ the sole surviving Mark of Death (yeah, she stands out a wee bit) can literally wipe any nation on the continent off the map by herself without even involving the multiple secret organizations that serve her personally.

FR has plenty of people to oppose anyone else gaining power, Greyhawk has the Circle of Eight and some other big names that would notice up-and-comers and explain the realities of existence to them (keep your head down or go planeswalking) and Dark Sun has game-breaking dragon sorcerers and their personal army of actual worshippers who eat people who get uppity. Planescape is literally infinite, and has an untold number of Powers that can slap you down no matter what kind of wish-based shennigans you pull. Eberron kind of stands out as a place where once you hit 13+, you can make the world your bitch. As it is, the most powerful NPC running around is an eleven year old girl who's an 18th level cleric only when she's in a specific town. If you can get her out (by any means, including forcibly teleporting her out), she reverts to a 3rd level cleric- pure assassin bait.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 4:02 am

RandomCasualty2 wrote:How is that different from Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, Dark Sun, Planescape or any other world for that matter.

Forgotten Realms actually has high level characters that can begin the equivalent of the wish economy, and the common acceptance is that the setting maintains cohesion through equilibrium where the high level folks counter each other.

Planescape has infinite planes for any particular playground, and the big names are statless on the whole and/or playing the same game (but with more stuff on their side). The setting doesn't change beyond recognition or collapse in on itself because even with wish economy power, you're but a speck in the face of infinity.

Dark Sun is the result of high level characters fighting amongst each other, a post-apocalyptic fantasy setting as it were.

Greyhawk suffers from the same complaint as Eberron, in my eyes. Both say that high level is exceptionally rare, and the last set of high level folk that existed caused a major shift in the setting before killing each other off.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 5:56 am

Voss wrote: FR has plenty of people to oppose anyone else gaining power, Greyhawk has the Circle of Eight and some other big names that would notice up-and-comers and explain the realities of existence to them (keep your head down or go planeswalking) and Dark Sun has game-breaking dragon sorcerers and their personal army of actual worshippers who eat people who get uppity. Planescape is literally infinite, and has an untold number of Powers that can slap you down no matter what kind of wish-based shennigans you pull. Eberron kind of stands out as a place where once you hit 13+, you can make the world your bitch.

How does Dragonlance and Ravenloft handle high-level goons?

Psychic Robot · Post by **Psychic Robot** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:09 am

I like Eberron for what it is: over-the-top, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink crap. The warforged and changelings are my favorite races, and I can appreciate them in the context of the setting. Now, if you tried to create psychic robots and make them Core...well, I'd be a bit displeased. Not as displeased as I am with Draenlings and Blood Eladrin, mind you, but displeased nonetheless.

RandomCasualty2 · Post by **RandomCasualty2** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:23 am

virgileso wrote: Forgotten Realms actually has high level characters that can begin the equivalent of the wish economy, and the common acceptance is that the setting maintains cohesion through equilibrium where the high level folks counter each other.

The problem is that you really can't counter the wish economy by doing it yourself. What happens is that the world gets flooded with gold and the value of a gold coin actually goes down.

And there's really no way to establish any real equilibrium there, unless the powers of the world simply agreed not to do it, which is highly unlikely given that many of them are in fact evil.

There's no reason that the Zulkir's of Thay would even care about the magic item trade if they were into the wish economy, since gold is meaningless to them. Or at least they wouldn't be selling magic items, they'd be buying them.

virgil · Post by **virgil** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:26 am

Hence the 'common acceptance' that generic WotC forumites tout about, being the same people that think having near limitless resources is somehow breaking the RaW. I know that it doesn't give any explanation, and 'equilibrium' is just a bad excuse, but that is the theory that some people seem to think exists.

This is part of the reason why I prefer to run Planescape with the Wish Economy in action for when the players reach 11th level. They can have themselves a tower made out of emeralds and magic swords hanging over every door frame, while they lounge on beds stuffed with achaierai feathers and a horde of mithral-plated skeleton servants attend to their every need. All that, and they won't suffer for any kind of loss of tangible power, because such riches couldn't buy them a single upgrade.

They'll even learn to care about the machinations of the Blood War through personal vendettas, bids for power/profit, and the idea of glory in the realms they will actually frequent.

ckafrica · Post by **ckafrica** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 7:55 am

I liked the idea of the Eberron world but the high level thing does seem to screw it. Might be good with the E6 system though

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 8:03 am

Jerry wrote:How does Dragonlance and Ravenloft handle high-level goons?

In Ravenloft the biggest enemies are between 9th and 15th level. If you defeat them, you either become a Dark Lord yourself (and stop playing D&D and start playing SimCity: Evil Edition), or you get to free the area and transplant the entire barony that you were adventuring in to another setting of the table's choice. Ravenloft "levels up" when the characters push the wish economy levels, so it is entirely fitting for the characters to have the newly expanded setting be Spelljammer or something equally insane.

Dragonlance runs entirely by bullshit fundamentalist Mormon logic and makes no god damn sense at all.

-Username17

Draco_Argentum · Post by **Draco_Argentum** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 10:21 am

Voss wrote:Because Eberron was billed as the setting that specific takes D&Disms and integrates them into the setting.

This +++

I like Eberron itself but it most certainly does not do what it was touted as doing. Hence the hate. If it had just been a new setting people would like or dislike it as a subjective personal choice. The hatred stems from it getting advertised as something it simply cannot live up to.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 1:51 pm

Psychic Robot wrote:I like Eberron for what it is: over-the-top, everything-including-the-kitchen-sink crap. The warforged and changelings are my favorite races, and I can appreciate them in the context of the setting. Now, if you tried to create psychic robots and make them Core...well, I'd be a bit displeased. Not as displeased as I am with Draenlings and Blood Eladrin, mind you, but displeased nonetheless.

Eberron is over the top? My biggest problem with the setting is that it is hellishly dull. Magic trains and airships are just basic transportation, and aren't used for anything interesting. Magic robots are just like people, and you need a gnome to make a cell phone call.
Its has all the banality of the worst sci-fi in a fantasy wrapper.

@Jerry- Dragonlance used to have a bullshit level cap of 17 that was divinely mandated. Except for certain author-exceptions, of course. And along side the author mandated crazy, the setting doesn't hang together well. The setting falls apart if you poke at the edges bordering the main storyline, and it does so very quickly.

NoDot · Post by **NoDot** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:04 pm

Koumei wrote:1. Because all the "PSIONICS MAKES YOUR GAME BETTER AND IF YOU DON'T ALLOW IT I'LL GO AND CRY TO MY MUM AND/OR STORMWIND!" people have a hard-on for it. They also never shut up about how it's the best, and how you should only ever play it, and how every other "We don't fellate your stupid system and flavour of psionics." setting sucks.

To be fair, Psionics* and Tome of Battle (and apparently, the Binder from the Tome of Magic as well) are less over the top crazy at higher levels, and that's a good thing in most non Gaming Den opinions. (Or at least compared to the over the top crazy that is high level magic in D&D, it might be.)

*(By which I mean the Psion and the full BAB Psychic Warrior.)

2. Warforged.

I've never seen the problem, probably because I like Kitchen Sink fiction.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Thu Jun 19, 2008 6:21 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:
In Ravenloft the biggest enemies are between 9th and 15th level. If you defeat them, you either become a Dark Lord yourself (and stop playing D&D and start playing SimCity: Evil Edition), or you get to free the area and transplant the entire barony that you were adventuring in to another setting of the table's choice. Ravenloft "levels up" when the characters push the wish economy levels, so it is entirely fitting for the characters to have the newly expanded setting be Spelljammer or something equally insane.

Hee hee hee, sounds like fun... :twisted:

As for Dragonlance what makes it fundamentalist Morman? I know that one of the authors is Mormon, but is he a fundamentalist?

zeruslord · Post by **zeruslord** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:25 am

Frank is mostly talking about the part where the setting just works because everybody has agreed to play middle-ages and/or iron age fantasy. There is no explanation other than that Raistlin just never thought of it. This works out better before the setting was put into 3.X.

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 20, 2008 2:39 am

Jerry wrote:
FrankTrollman wrote:
In Ravenloft the biggest enemies are between 9th and 15th level. If you defeat them, you either become a Dark Lord yourself (and stop playing D&D and start playing SimCity: Evil Edition), or you get to free the area and transplant the entire barony that you were adventuring in to another setting of the table's choice. Ravenloft "levels up" when the characters push the wish economy levels, so it is entirely fitting for the characters to have the newly expanded setting be Spelljammer or something equally insane.
Hee hee hee, sounds like fun... :twisted:

As for Dragonlance what makes it fundamentalist Morman? I know that one of the authors is Mormon, but is he a fundamentalist?

He's a bit crazy. Thumb through the Annotated version of the original books that got published some years back. There are lots of asides to Mormonism, particularly with regard to the religion. Its part of the reason why, when they had a corrupt priesthood in Istar way back, it was somehow justified for the gods to drop a fiery mountain on everybody and strip clerical healing away, so that everyday people suffered and died in droves.