Tome Series: Can you still break the game?

[Jerry]

So let's assume that you are playing a Tome series game as the way that it was written. Is there any way that one can still break the game?

I've also noticed that some feats are so good for one character type that you'd be a fool not to take it. Say for example, Child Necromancer for a Necromancer, or Hordebreaker and Juggernaut for a Barbarian.
There are still character concepts that will be obviously better than others, but it is harder to end up with a character that completely sucks.

So is there any incentive for a character to not take a certain option, like my above feat examples?

[CatharzGodfoot]

Yes, you can still break the game using the Tome series.

Hordebreaker and Juggernaut are good for barbarians, but there's plenty of reason to take Blitz, Great Fortitude, or even Weapon Finesse instead. It really does depend on the character.

Child necromancer is awesome, but again, you might be better off with a brace of fiendish or undead creation feats instead.

[Judging__Eagle]

I don't see how Juggernaut is all that amazing for a Barbarian.

It's good, but it's not wtfpwn.

Child Necro is supposed to be taken by Necromancers, and it's sort of in flavour as well.

For a Barb, I'd say that Whirlwind is a better choice than Hordebreaker (lots of movement inherent in a barbarian when raging) early on.

Blitz is also handy since the Barbarian can survive the damage that he takes thanks to their DR and can repair it with little cost thanks to their Fast healing.

Hordebreaker is handy if you know that you'll drop enemies in one hit; combined with Whirlwind, you could first get a lot of initial attacks; and if you drop any of your targets, you have a second chance of attacking an already damaged enemy. Potentially dropping them and then setting you up for more Cleave attempts.

On its own Hordebreaker is so-so, you get more AoOs, and you can Cleave, but in my experience it's not many fights that you'll be in that is made up primarily of mooks.

An other good feat to combine with Whirlwind is Two-Weapon fighting; granting a second weapon attack each round. You don't get rage dice for off-hand attacks, but you are wearing down the targets that you hit that much faster. If you're attacking several targets thanks to Whirlwind, every tiny bit of damage at several enemies really helps count towards making group of enemies badly damaged to almost dead.

There's the Blitz + Whirlwind + Two Weapon Fighting combo that I personally like.

Some Benefits:
-Apply your BaB to damage twice as often (provoke twice as many AoOs, but you're a Barb, you focused on Con over everything else anyway)
-Against mobs, you get two attacks on each target
-Against single tough monsters you get double your regular amount of attacks (and about... 30-50% extra damage)
-You pull attention away from other party members (provoking lots of AoOs means that the next party member that decides to follow you, or heal you will probably be relatively safe from AoOs; this tactic also helps if you need to clear a safe route through a crowd of enemies)
-Aside from needing in-combat healing or 'un-raging' to repair damage, you're pretty self-sufficent in terms of what you need to be dangerous. You don't need buffs to do your job, you don't need polymorph and you can keep up with a buffed-up cleric in a fight.

Considerations:
-You'll take boat loads of damage, every round and every fight. Hovering around 1-10 HP after one or two rounds is expected. Dangerous, yes, but you kill a lot of enemies and deal more damage yourself; so who cares.
-Buy your other party members wands that can heal you; seriously, they'll respect you and when they realize that every divine caster in the party healing you is a "good idea", they'll usually do so.
-You'll be a glory-hog, this can cause... problems.
-If you are buffed even slightly, ask for stuff that keeps you alive, Con, DR, armour increases are all your friend.
-Since you tend to kill stuff and deal big damage, you want to improve your To-Hit over improving your damage. This can be done in several ways. Specializing in Dex and Con and picking up Weapon Finesse (rely on Dex for AC and Hit, Con for HP).


Really, the feats are all good.

The thing is deciding the flavour you want for a character. The feats make it possible.

An other big thing is to make sure that you actually use your Feats options. Sometimes people forget to use the lower level or +1 BaB options for their chosen feats.

[K]

I'm surprised that people always point to Child Necromancer as an example of a powerful feat.

It's a +4 caster level to necromancy spells, reduced size, and you get to cherry pick necromancy spells for your spells known at the price of having to RP a child. I can count on one hand the number of necromancy spells that get anything from higher caster level and the loss of versatility by overloading on necromancy spells offsets any added utility.

I know that people will gloss over the RP problems of playing a child, but the benefits just aren't that good.

[RandomCasualty2]

So let's assume that you are playing a Tome series game as the way that it was written. Is there any way that one can still break the game?

Well it depends on what you consider to be "broken".

Even with the wish economy, you can still use the gold to craft infinite items if you take item crafting feats, so item crafting is crazy powerful.

Consider also that two RoW fighters with foil action can lock down anyone, regardless of their CR, assuming they can't attack as a free action. Most people would consider that fairly broken if you intended to go into epic or fight gods or something, given that a few RoW fighters could take down Asmodeus if they could get close enough.

Though pretty much it doesn't matter if you kill anyone in the Wish economy, since anything you kill that's of decent power is going to resurrect itself MMORPG style. Death is cheap, but so is life.

[Jerry]

I'm surprised that people always point to Child Necromancer as an example of a powerful feat.

It's a +4 caster level to necromancy spells, reduced size, and you get to cherry pick necromancy spells for your spells known at the price of having to RP a child. I can count on one hand the number of necromancy spells that get anything from higher caster level and the loss of versatility by overloading on necromancy spells offsets any added utility.

I know that people will gloss over the RP problems of playing a child, but the benefits just aren't that good.

I can understand you, but there is still a distinct possibility of not taking the right feats to end up with an effective character. It's just that much harder to.

P.S. Is the Tome of Gears a lost cause, or is it ever going to be worked on in the future?

[K]

P.S. Is the Tome of Gears a lost cause, or is it ever going to be worked on in the future?

Frank's in medical school and I'm in law school and we happen to not be on the same continent. So unless both our lives fall apart and we end up in at least the same country code, I don't see work on the Book of Gears, Tome of Virtue, or Tome of Tiamat happening any time in the next two to five years.

Sorry, but that's how it goes with unpaid work.

[Orion]

What was the deal with Tome of Virtue suposed to be?

Gears is at least playable, and we've seen enough to guess what Tiamat was supposed to be doing.

What was the Tome of Virtue for?

[K]

What was the deal with Tome of Virtue suposed to be?

Gears is at least playable, and we've seen enough to guess what Tiamat was supposed to be doing.

What was the Tome of Virtue for?

Gears: magic items, constructs, giant insects, traps that make sense, illusions, inventor/artificer characters.

Virtue: Angels, gods, paladins and other religious characters, other religious types, upper planes that aren't lame, the afterlife, and various definitions of Good that are actually playable. Basically a flipside of Tome of Fiends, but much more ambitious.

Tiamat: playable monsters, evoker-type guys, workable summoning (not happy with my earlier efforts though Frank's summoner is fine), shapechanging/body-enchanting, and site magic that doesn't hurt the brain.

At some point we were also going to do charms, fey that aren't only playable by 11 year old girls, druids, and bards, but that wasn't quite concepted out.

[Jerry]

Of all of them, I was most looking forward to playable monster types.

*Sigh*

I could always do Frank's CR+1=level method for some monsters.

[ckafrica]

Frank &/or K,

Any chance of rough notes from the yet unreleased tomes like from book of gears that we could get our grubby hands on?

[SunTzuWarmaster]

Child Necromancer kind of, um, sucks. +4 caster level isn't that good. At level 1, you are looking at doing 4 extra touches on a Chill Touch (and maybe 3 extra Str damage), an additional 4 rounds of Cause Fear, and an additional 2 strength penalty from a Ray of Enfeeblement. Woo!

Anywho, as for fun combos, I have always liked the (Full BAB) + (Point Blank Shot) + (Blitz) + Composite longbow combination. Shoot an arrow as a Full BAB character provoking an AoO, it does d8+str+BAB+BAB damage with a +3 to hit (within 30). At level 5 you are seriously looking at an arrow that does 18.5 damage on average with an attack bonus of around +11 (5BAB+2dex+3PBS). At level 6, you are looking at +12/+10 for 41 average damage.

Of course, if you take my route, you are also a samurai so that you can Kiai! that 18.5 average damage into the average Kiai! damage of 55.5 which is almost enough to kill a creature of equal CR in one hit.

Throw in a healthy dose of TWF (to summarize, TWF+PBS+Blitz), and 2 darts/round at levels 3-5 (human) and 4/round at levels 6-11. At level 5 these darts do 12.5 damage for 25 average damage per round (a TWF rogue at this level does 26/round), at level 6 you hit the 50 dmg/round (a TWF rogue is still doing 26) mark.

Of course this is feat-intensive, but having TWF and PBS at level 1 is as good a way to make it to level 2 as most anything else.

The one way that I've seen an obvious break in the game is as a Tome Samurai at level 11 with TWF. The short version is that he can land something like 26 attacks using the Immediate Action (before the round) + Full Attack + Immediate action (after the round) combo. (4 attacks for having 18 dex, 3 attacks for each hand = 10 AoOs on an Iaijutsu). However, this is at level 11, where I have admittedly not played the game, but 26+ attacks is hardcore/awesome.

[Judging__Eagle]

Of all of them, I was most looking forward to playable monster types.

*Sigh*

I could always do Frank's CR+1=level method for some monsters.

I also like to simply strip down a monster's stats and HD so that they can be used at lower levels.

Takes a bit more time though.

[Jerry]

Even in Tome D&D, there are still powerful options to take, up to the point that you're shooting yourself in the foot to not make said decision.

Not to mention that I don't always want to adopt a new variant wholesale into my games; I just want to change the parts about the game that I don't like. The Tome series may as well be an entirely different game.

Can I just opt to take some core elements (classes, staying on the RNG, etc.) and make a balanced D&D game?

Also, one more question: why is game balance so important to you guys, exactly? If the game is mostly balanced, with very small differences between power level, that's good enough for me.

P.S. I am aware that D&D has large power differences.

[Surgo]

Balance gets a lot of press, but there's more to it than that here: eg, rules that actually work and are understandable, good flavor, etc. You can find all of that in said Tomes.

[Leress]

Even in Tome D&D, there are still powerful options to take, up to the point that you're shooting yourself in the foot to not make said decision.

same can be said about regular DnD.

Not to mention that I don't always want to adopt a new variant wholesale into my games; I just want to change the parts about the game that I don't like. The Tome series may as well be an entirely different game.

Then just do that, take what you like and leave the rest.

Can I just opt to take some core elements (classes, staying on the RNG, etc.) and make a balanced D&D game?

Sure you can. I only really use the Races of War for classes and such. I use the concepts in the Tome for making Pirates of Dark Water d20.

Also, one more question: why is game balance so important to you guys, exactly? If the game is mostly balanced, with very small differences between power level, that's good enough for me.

P.S. I am aware that D&D has large power differences.

You just answered your own question. The power differences are too large, which means it's not fair to those on the short end of the stick (mostly melee classes). I think I can assume everyone wants the game to be fair. The smaller the power gap the more even the playing field and more like no one gets screwed.

[Jerry]

I have a mix of players, some "casual" and some "hard-core." The casual guys did not notice the difference, and still have just as much fun with normal D&D.

So what is the main selling point of Tome D&D? To make the non-full-casters pwn at tasks, too, because that is what I like most about it.

[Leress]

I have a mix of players, some "casual" and some "hard-core." The casual guys did not notice the difference, and still have just as much fun with normal D&D.

Then that's okay, but there are still problems with the mechanics of the game.

So what is the main selling point of Tome D&D? To make the non-full-casters pwn at tasks, too, because that is what I like most about it.

To make the field more even and make each class unique. Also to have each player able to make the character that way they imagined them.

Of course the core concepts can be use to make a game of a low magic level (Pirates of Darkwater) or even no magic.

[Jerry]

How can you make a Tome game "Low-Magic?" Are the Tome classes balanced without/under supplied in magic items?

[Leress]

How can you make a Tome game "Low-Magic?"

It is all about wording and adjustment

Are the Tome classes balanced without/under supplied in magic items?

Yes, remember in the Book of Gears everyone is limited to eight magical items. So to lower that number just make it 3 or 4, and make certain items have different bonuses.

Change Enchantment bonus to Ability bonus and make it only effect stats. With that gone masterwork weapons and armour get "equipment" bonuses, they are just like the old enchantment bonus but not magical. Then have a way to make them magical. A spell, ritual, whatever.

Limit the spell list, and make arcane spell chance failure to just plain spell chance failure if you wanted too (completely optional)

That is just a couple of ideas*

* Using those with PoD d20

[Judging__Eagle]

The power differences between a Barbarian that is played by a semi-casual player (Blind Fighting, Blitz, Hordebreaker; Adamantine spiked armour, adamantine great sword that relies on rage dice) and one that a power-gamer builds (TWF, Blitz, Whirlwind; Dual Kusari-Gama, Silk Steel armour) isn't that large.

Really what ends up happening is that people play for the flavour that they want.

One person wanted a barbarian that was able to fight no matter how dark it got and wanted to swing uber-hard with her greatsword and kill guys that were too dumb to move away from her.

Basically they wanted to re-make their NWN blindfighting 1/2 elf barbarian.

The other person wanted to swing a lot, move a lot in combat, attract attention to themselves when they attacked and attack mobs of guys at once.

Basically I wanted to re-make the barbarian-cum-blender whirlwind of death that was my Diablo 2 barbarian character; I was a big fan of the barb talent that made you run and attack at ludicrous speed.

[Jerry]

I guess that I expect too much from the Tomes. Like D&D, I'll just have to play it and have fun instead of nit-picking at everything.

[Judging__Eagle]

Honestly, I don't know what you could expect, except for some explanation for how things are, or to explain what things need replacing (and then replacing them).

[Jerry]

Sorry if I confused you guys.

You see, after playing normal D&D and hearing about the positive feedback of the Tome Series, I expected it to be some Platonic Ideal of D&D.

My hopes were too high, but I like the Tomes nonetheless.

[Judging__Eagle]

I dunno, they're pretty ideal.

The real thing is that once you understand how they work, you get a much better idea as to what sort of things a character should be able to do.

So if you want a new character concept, you just write up the class. Then test it against some equal CR monsters from the MM to get your base-line.

I remember making a RoW fighter that at lvl 11 could solo things up to and including 'some' CR 14 monsters. At lvl 11 though, a RoW fighter had room for a lot of combat feats; plus all three of the +Saves feats; so they're really hard to put down (feats at lvls 1, 3, 6, 9; and 2, 4, 6, 8, 10 = 9 feats). Danger Sense definately made an appearence.

Taking a level of monk so that Hide is a class skill helps for making a very rounded fighter (getting a fighting style that either "makes your weapon attacks have the benefit of your slam attack; your slam attacks are piercing and deal 2 points of con damage per hit" or "+4 to saves (or armour); +30' more movement").

I know that I tossed in Danger Sense in, the biggest problem that a melee-type has is being snuck up on, so that feat works wonders.

My biggest pit-fall as a designer is that I love attacking at range, in everything. So I love reach weapons like spiked chains and kusari-gamas; I also tend to use them in nearly every build that I can.

But it's a habit that I've had in lots of games.

In Lords of the Realm, I loved to rely on massed Archers, behind a tiny, tiny line of Pikemen; a small squad of macemen made up my "anti-archer" element.

In the Total Annihilation game, I either massed on fighter planes that would fire one missle and fly away for an other pass, or mass on lots of long range missle trucks as my armies backbones.

In the medieval TA game (TA:Kingdoms) I'd tend to build archers, no matter the faction.

In Age of Mythology, I'd play egyptians and mass on fully upgraded slingers, with a few spear-men as a 'wall'; plus specialty units.



I just like to deal damage from far away, it saves me resources and usually it's asymmetric in my favour.

I really just don't like to send my men into combat that's going to cost them more than it should.

I'd rather spend twenty minutes kiting zombies with one archer in Myth: The fallen lords, and luring the enemy into a trapped with bombs, or the wrong side of a cliff (with archers at the top); than be lazy and just send in my berzerkers or swordsmen to cut into the enemy ranks.