Non-d20 Fantasy Games

[Jerry]

Hello, folks!

I have gotten tired of D&D and I want to know what other good fantasy gaming systems are out there. I want to know your opinion on which table-top RPGs are good or not.

I have heard of The Riddle of Steel, and its combat system is brutal and lethal. But can it capture the "Fantasy" feel well? I have only heard from Bigode on the system, but I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

What of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? I do not know enough about it to make an informed opinion.

And what of True20? I know that it is a variant of d20, but can it replicate a fantasy game without Wish, Fabricate, and the "Christmas Tree" effect?

What about the d6 Lord of the Rings RPG? Can it be a good fantasy RPG?

Can the Feng Shui RPG help create a good fantasy game?

In advance, I'd like to thank anybody who helps me!

[Talisman]

I've never played Feng Shui as a fantasy, but it does a good job as a "zany action" RPG.

7th Sea (the roll-&-keep system one) is a pretty decent pirate/swashbuckling fantasy RPG. It's out of print, sadly.

[angelfromanotherpin]

I have heard of The Riddle of Steel, and its combat system is brutal and lethal. But can it capture the "Fantasy" feel well? I have only heard from Bigode on the system, but I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

It really depends what you mean by Fantasy. It really has an emphasis on gritty humanoid-on-humanoid armed combat, so wrestling a Hydra might be difficult to pull off. The magic system is fairly out there, but if you wanted to do something inspired by The Black Company or A Game of Thrones it works pretty well.

What of Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay? I do not know enough about it to make an informed opinion.

Entertaining in many ways, but unimpressively designed; it runs into several stumbling blocks in play.

What about the d6 Lord of the Rings RPG? Can it be a good fantasy RPG?

No, it cannot. If you want LOTR-style gaming, check out Burning Wheel.

Can the Feng Shui RPG help create a good fantasy game?

Feng Shui mostly does Hong Kong Action. That can certainly have a fantasy backdrop. just be aware that the advancement system sucks.

As for other games, I recommend The Shadow of Yesterday or Reign.

[Jerry]

It really depends what you mean by Fantasy.

By Fantasy, I want the heroes to be able to take on monsters using nothing but their wits, without the need to rely on magical doo-dads, Macguffins, or for other party members to "Buff" them.
In short, I want my player characters able to function well by themselves.

I would prefer "High Power" in the sense of Hercules wrestling a Hydra, Sigurd slaying a Dragon, and Egill Skallagrimsson taking on 20 men at once.

P.S. Other than what the Burning Wheel site says, what do you guys think of the RPG?

[angelfromanotherpin]

Your definition is a fairly specific kind of fantasy, and an odd one, given how few fantasy heroes I can think of that actually walk around without at least some kind of magical gewgaw. Either way, though, Riddle of Steel scales to high fantasy only so-so. 20-to-1 fights are only going to work if the hero's got a chokepoint to defend, though single monster fights usually aren't much worse odds than single soldier fights.

Burning Wheel is very Tolkienian. I've never played it myself, but there's a big divide on how playable it is. Some people find it very smooth, others are baffled by the scripting system. It's also not especially Gamist, which is to say that you literally get to pick if you were born a dirt farmer or a noble, and dirt farmers (understandably) have it worse.

[Jerry]

Your definition is a fairly specific kind of fantasy, and an odd one, given how few fantasy heroes I can think of that actually walk around without at least some kind of magical gewgaw.

How about then a game where a character can get an artifact sword or something like that, but doesn't need everything and the kitchen sink in magic items to be playable?

[Voss]

WFRP isn't bad for gritty fantasy. No macguffins, very, very little buffing and not a lot of doo-dads. Plus wizards really aren't the end all and be all (its hard to get to the point that you actually have useful magic, and in the new version, it occasionally blows up in your face). And there is a reasonable chance of running into people who seriously want to set you on fire. And yeah, they're the 'good' guys. Or a mob, which is always fun.

On the other hand, it doesn't do high power well. Dragons pretty much eat you, and 20 men mean you're dead.

[Maj]

Everway - also out of print - is awesome for fantasy settings, though it's very rules-light and DM-trust intensive. It does lack an advancement system, though because it's level-less, it's completely easy to make one up.

Not very many power gamers like it because there are not as many illusions* about your character as games like D&D, but when it comes to creating a character, you can play pretty much anything you can think of. Equipment is flavor-text (you can have an artifact with most of your character's powers in it, or you can just have a character with powers).


* When I say illusions, I'm referring to statistics like XP. Players think that because they can see how far it is to level 3 that they somehow have more control over their character than the DM does... Which is pretty naive considering that the DM is the one who sets the pace of the game by handing out XP.

[Jerry]

WFRP isn't bad for gritty fantasy. No macguffins, very, very little buffing and not a lot of doo-dads. Plus wizards really aren't the end all and be all (its hard to get to the point that you actually have useful magic, and in the new version, it occasionally blows up in your face). And there is a reasonable chance of running into people who seriously want to set you on fire. And yeah, they're the 'good' guys. Or a mob, which is always fun.

On the other hand, it doesn't do high power well. Dragons pretty much eat you, and 20 men mean you're dead.

Angelfromanotherpin said that it has some stumbling blocks in play. Do you know of any? If Angel could tell me what he meant by that, I will also appreciate it.

[angelfromanotherpin]

How about then a game where a character can get an artifact sword or something like that, but doesn't need everything and the kitchen sink in magic items to be playable?

Most of the mentioned games do that. Only D&D and it's most direct knock-offs tend to be doing the Diablo thing.

[Leress]

Your definition is a fairly specific kind of fantasy, and an odd one, given how few fantasy heroes I can think of that actually walk around without at least some kind of magical gewgaw.

How about then a game where a character can get an artifact sword or something like that, but doesn't need everything and the kitchen sink in magic items to be playable?

BESM 2E. Everyone in the party is made of awesome and not a single person could be wielding more than just a kitchen knife.

[Jerry]

Most of the mentioned games do that. Only D&D and it's most direct knock-offs tend to be doing the Diablo thing.

Thanks! 8)

[Jerry]

BESM 2E. Everyone in the party is made of awesome and not a single person could be wielding more than just a kitchen knife.

I heard that the game is unbalanced as hell. Other than that, are there any problems that I should look out for if I do decide to play it?

[Voss]

WFRP isn't bad for gritty fantasy. No macguffins, very, very little buffing and not a lot of doo-dads. Plus wizards really aren't the end all and be all (its hard to get to the point that you actually have useful magic, and in the new version, it occasionally blows up in your face). And there is a reasonable chance of running into people who seriously want to set you on fire. And yeah, they're the 'good' guys. Or a mob, which is always fun.

On the other hand, it doesn't do high power well. Dragons pretty much eat you, and 20 men mean you're dead.

Angelfromanotherpin said that it has some stumbling blocks in play. Do you know of any? If Angel could tell me what he meant by that, I will also appreciate it.

Stumbling blocks?
Its really, really easy to wipe out a party if you aren't paying attention. Even numbers in a fight really mean the fight is fair, which isn't necessarily a good thing in an RPG. It means that the orcs win 50% of the time, and most groups aren't happy with that happening on a regular basis.

Starting characters really kind of suck. They've got about a 33% chance to hit (or do anything, really), everybody drops at around 3-4 hits, and someone with a full kit is made of awesome (and I really mean they have a normal sword, a shield, and real armor- chain or plate). You actually notice, and it makes a difference. A starting character, done with the standard generation method, is lucky if he starts with a sword and unbelievably fortunate if he has leather armor.

Advancement is pretty slow, and depending on what you like, that can be a problem.


On BESM... the GM really has to vet every character creation and advancement choice the party makes. If its not setting appropriate, it can be a problem. But more to the point, one person can really be playing a normal, 13 year old normal school girl who's major feature is really that she's bad at math, the next can be a mecha-jockey with a 50' robot and the next can be an actual demigod. If you can manage to get everyone on the same playing field, it could be fine, but its an effort to get them there, and even more of an effort to keep them there.

[Username17]

WFRP is incredibly fatal. Like, you can seriously hunt manticore with slings because any weapon at all does serious lethal damage to any creature at all.

As far as I can tell, the magic system is a joke. As in an actual prank that is written for humor factor. You'll seriously never get any of it, so what it does is pretty much meaningless. You have to go up many levels through a variety of intermediate classes through a system that kills you almost as much as Paranoia in order to even become a spellcaster. And once you start learning magic, you seriously have to roll dice to see if the magic itself rips you apart (demons eat you, tomb rot causes you to die, that kind of thing). The fact that spells have a tendency to create/summon monsters that are individually better than the entire party has any right to be is pretty much meaningless because no one will ever have any of it for more than a session of play ever.

Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay is not about being great heroes fighting epic battles against the evil forces sent to destroy civilization. The nations of men are ghastly and repressive and not worth saving at all. The people, including the player characters, are filthy and ignorant and probably as well off dead as they are alive. The villains are probably even worse, but only slightly.

It sets off to be very medieval and it is. Think of it as Children's Crusade the Game. You play characters who are second or third sons of peasant families in Dark Age European kingdoms which have reached carrying capacity for their inefficient farming techniques. You therefore have to wander off and essentially turn to banditry in order to feed yourselves, and the majority of you will die not by the sword but by the pointed stick or rusty farm implement.

It can be depressing or comical depending upon how it's played, but if you're looking for a game where the players go on to actually achieve anything, it's probably a bad system to leverage.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

BESM 2E. Everyone in the party is made of awesome and not a single person could be wielding more than just a kitchen knife.

I heard that the game is unbalanced as hell. Other than that, are there any problems that I should look out for if I do decide to play it?

Leress is correct, most power is held by characters themselves rather than the items (and in some cases, items are part of the character abilities), but as a whole there is really no balance.
There are only attacks and countermeasures, much like a big Marvel X-Men brawl.

[RandomCasualty2]

BESM 2E. Everyone in the party is made of awesome and not a single person could be wielding more than just a kitchen knife.

I heard that the game is unbalanced as hell. Other than that, are there any problems that I should look out for if I do decide to play it?

Leress is correct, most power is held by characters themselves rather than the items (and in some cases, items are part of the character abilities), but as a whole there is really no balance.
There are only attacks and countermeasures, much like a big Marvel X-Men brawl.

Unless you take the item of power ability, which is completely broken, in which you put all your power into a magic item basically (and get like x5 points for doing so, or something ridiculous like that).

[Leress]

I never really used items of power because of the off chance of losing the item. Now that is not to say they aren't broken as hell. The group I played with mostly made places of power (ie, Flying fortresses, or airships of awesome) We would usually pool our resources to lighten the cost that way we could be awesome inside or outside our palace.

[RandomCasualty2]

I never really used items of power because of the off chance of losing the item. Now that is not to say they aren't broken as hell. The group I played with mostly made places of power (ie, Flying fortresses, or airships of awesome) We would usually pool our resources to lighten the cost that way we could be awesome inside or outside our palace.

Yeah. that's the only balancing factor to item of power is that the GM can be a total dick and just take your item away from you. Still, it's going to be rather hard if you just make it a magic ring or something.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Here's a cool indie-style take on the D&D experience: Donjon!

[Bigode]

I have only heard from Bigode on the system, but I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

What you heard from me was nothing more than a gut feeling - the reason for which I haven't bothered to actually learn anything at all about it. Of games released in the U.S.A., I play only d20 and GURPS; the latter can do almost anything if you exercise enough care (in choosing variant rules and deciding what material's allowed).

[Jerry]

I have only heard from Bigode on the system, but I'd like to hear other people's ideas.

What you heard from me was nothing more than a gut feeling

Thanks for telling me.

Also, what about Savage Worlds? Is it a (relatively) balanced system that can replicate a fantasy game well?

[Manxome]

Here's a cool indie-style take on the D&D experience: Donjon!

My recollection of Donjon is that it claims that the players are supposed to try and "beat" the DM (and vice versa) but that it immediately breaks horribly if anyone makes any serious attempt to do this. It's an interesting system for a cooperative storytelling endeavor, but as a tactical game, it fails horribly.

For example, if you cast a spell and get 1 success, you can seriously choose either to inflict 1 damage or to declare that you're dominating the target (and force the DM to make up rules for what that means, because that level of detail certainly isn't in the rulebook)--or any other BS status effect that you just made up on the spot. You're supposed to spend additional successes for actual mechanical effects (e.g. if you polymorph someone into a chicken, you need to spend successes 1-for-1 to actually change his stats), but all you need to do to completely break the game is declare a narrative effect (as you're generally encouraged to do) instead of a mechanical one.

You're even supposed to make up your own character abilities, and there aren't any special rules for abilities other than martial attack, martial defense, spellcasting, and maybe one or two other special cases (and that your secondary abilities must be "limited in some way"). You can pick "precognition" as your primary ability, and use it whenever you want to try to predict what's about to happen--and since Donjon allows people that succeed on perception rolls to define what they perceive, that means that if you roll any successes you literally just get to make up what's about to happen, and the DM is required by the rules to go along with it. And the DM's options for keeping these sorts of powers in line are limited to: (1) tell you can only do it once per scene, (2) make up BS difficulty numbers so that you never win any die rolls (which requires rolling dozens upon dozens of dice against you in this system), or (3) negotiate with you out-of-game.

And even the rules that are actually spelled out have loopholes a mile wide.

So anyway, interesting system, but it doesn't work at all for what it claims to do. (Unless it's completely changed since I looked at it several years ago.)

[Talisman]

Sounds like it could be fun for a group of cooperative storytellers...a RPG variant on the old "you write a chapter, then I write a chapter" idea.

Or an improv comedy sketch.

But, yeah, it doesn't appear to have the tactical crunch that most RPGs do.

[Cynic]

While I've never had a cahnce to actually play it, I've always loved the setting and the distinct (by distinct I mean quite simple) mechanics of the "Dice-less Amber role playing system."

While it isn't fantasy per say, based on the setting, it can definitely be molded into a fantastical setting.