Kingdoms of Kalamar, Anyone?

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:36 am

The tiered economy is not the only approach. You could go to the AD&D method with no assumed magic item economy at all and a built-in assumption that the rich and powerful become landed royalty automatically. Or any of a number of other things.

The point is that you can't really have the economy from Diablo II in a role playing game which is intended to exist in a real world. The Diablo II economy just does not survive contact with any decent amount of time or examination. And while the player characters may indeed be spending their every waking moment fighting demonic invasions and ninja armies - but it is unreasonable to believe that everyone in the whole world is.

-Username17

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:44 am

FrankTrollman wrote:The tiered economy is not the only approach. You could go to the AD&D method with no assumed magic item economy at all and a built-in assumption that the rich and powerful become landed royalty automatically. Or any of a number of other things.

The point is that you can't really have the economy from Diablo II in a role playing game which is intended to exist in a real world. The Diablo II economy just does not survive contact with any decent amount of time or examination. And while the player characters may indeed be spending their every waking moment fighting demonic invasions and ninja armies - but it is unreasonable to believe that everyone in the whole world is.

-Username17

I think that your ideas have hit the nail on the head in many ways, but the idea that the higher-ups "just don't care" about the dirt farmers (I don't think that you or K applied it, it's more something that Voss has said earlier in this thread) may not sit well with all groups, especially groups that genuinely wish to help the common folk. And if said people just get raided later on, my players would understandably be angry, feeling that all they worked for is for not.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:29 am

Whether you "care" about them or not (that is: feel bad when they suffer or feel good when they get joy) is really pretty irrelevant in a Wish Economy world. Maybe you do, maybe you don't. The point is that the actions or inactions of the dirt farmers are pretty much meaningless in terms of whether and how much wish-level equipment you happen to have.

Indeed, the tiered non-transferable nature of the Wish Economy presentation allows powerful individuals to empathize with and aid the little man without shooting themselves in the ass. So long as all your gold pieces are somehow transferable into staves of mystic might and cloaks of protection the character is rewarded for being a dick and punished for being altruistic. It seriously punishes the character who puts money and effort into building towers, employing artists, and otherwise sponsoring the local economy. With the non-transferability clause from our work the question of whether you take all your gold home and sleep on it, jealously covet it and dole it out in small pieces to coerce sexual favors from local farmer's daughters, donate it to temples or kingdoms you approve of, purchase the construction of infrastructure, or hurl it out to crowds as largess is entirely a thematic choice of the character.

-Username17

Voss · Post by **Voss** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:50 am

Its K's pirate ship problem. If gold = character power, then the party never just plows a bunch of money into a ship and takes to the high seas.

You lose all sorts of interesting stories with the 3rd and 4th edition economic models. You don't build castles, monasteries, wizard towers or even buy ships or griffon eggs, because none of those things matter as much as having another + on your sword/staff/armor/cloak. I thought the height of silliness was the cost for traps in 3rd. That couldn't actually be a worthwhile choice for anyone, and kobolds would literally have to spend more gold than they would ever see to dig a pit trap and line it with spikes, and thats not only sad, its inherently stupid. But 4e wins the stupid wars again, because setting a +6 magic item on fire so you can make half dozen minor (but permanent, always on) magic items of levels you shouldn't even care about any more actually makes sense.

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:52 am

Talisman wrote:I'm sorry, I refuse to take seriously a deity called "The Coddler."

My last DM made this DMPC... thing... that was pretty much the Dungeonmaster from the D&D cartoon with a giant rainbow lolipop.
The sexual perversions with this guy and his beloved 'deity' knew no bounds, and he and his friends had many chuckles during some sessions.

My problem was that every time my girlfriend and I missed a session, out characters ended up getting assraped and humilitated by this DMPC. You know, while we aren't there.
It's somewhat hard to build a believable development in a campaign while, in every third or fourth session, they are bent over and molested with a 2-foot diameter piece of candy.

So while I made my stand with the (odd, smirking) GM by saying "If you keep doing this, I don't want any part of this campaign."
It's not even about dignity, really. I want to play D&D, he wants to play candyland-meets-a bad porno.
And it happened again, and while I forced a grin, he and his friends continued to make jokes about our 'misfortune' while the most recent session began. For, oh, an hour.

The most recent session was a month ago. We simply stopped showing up because D&D is not being played. They haven't invited us back yet.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:26 pm

FrankTrollman wrote:...covet it and dole it out in small pieces to coerce sexual favors from local farmer's daughters...

And you find it creepy when a Paizo forum-goer likes to fantasize about sorcerers hitting on bar maids.

Judging__Eagle · Post by **Judging__Eagle** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 10:17 pm

sigma999 wrote:
Talisman wrote:I'm sorry, I refuse to take seriously a deity called "The Coddler."
My last DM made this DMPC... thing... that was pretty much the Dungeonmaster from the D&D cartoon with a giant rainbow lolipop.
The sexual perversions with this guy and his beloved 'deity' knew no bounds, and he and his friends had many chuckles during some sessions.

My problem was that every time my girlfriend and I missed a session, out characters ended up getting assraped and humilitated by this DMPC. You know, while we aren't there.
It's somewhat hard to build a believable development in a campaign while, in every third or fourth session, they are bent over and molested with a 2-foot diameter piece of candy.

So while I made my stand with the (odd, smirking) GM by saying "If you keep doing this, I don't want any part of this campaign."
It's not even about dignity, really. I want to play D&D, he wants to play candyland-meets-a bad porno.
And it happened again, and while I forced a grin, he and his friends continued to make jokes about our 'misfortune' while the most recent session began. For, oh, an hour.

The most recent session was a month ago. We simply stopped showing up because D&D is not being played. They haven't invited us back yet.

You don't need to give a 'last chance' for shit like that. Because that's what it is. Shit.

I'd have asked for my character sheets, then left. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with the guy?

Jerry,

Frank has had creepy enough things happen in the games that he's run or played that they've spawned signatures on these boards.

Frank also like to slip in weird things into his writing to see if anyone actually reads it all. Space Marine Skinflautists.

Trust me Frank, most of us here read most of what you say. Even if we don't get it at first, or we do something stupid like read Race of War in one sitting, and most of it goes right through our head.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 1:40 am

Judging__Eagle wrote:
Jerry,

Frank has had creepy enough things happen in the games that he's run or played that they've spawned signatures on these boards.

Frank also like to slip in weird things into his writing to see if anyone actually reads it all. Space Marine Skinflautists.

I know, that's also what I'm joking about.

Calibron · Post by **Calibron** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:38 am

Jerry wrote:The Wish Economy (from what I know) is a creation made by you and K, made with the assumption that the higher-ups (Deities, etc.) don't care about the "common folk." Why does your way have to be the only way that things are in game settings? What of a game/setting where high-level characters get together (like the PCs) and use the design rules of D&D magic to make life better for their village/town/etc. on a large scale, like Fabricate, Create Water, etc.? What happens then? What happens when mages act smart, get together, and exploit the hell out of Fabricate and other spells to make items for others to use? Not all Outsiders, Deities, and such are selfish, uncaring beings.

While Voss said that eventually, such people will die and their subjects will get raided/stolen from, but what of the other exploits, such as immortality, resurrection of the dead, or golems that are made to guard and protect the common folk when said adventurers pass away? Or what if the adventurers make their own government, appoint a competent successor to deal with things after they die?

Many things happen in plenty of years, and why should a world with super-smart wizards and such be stagnant?

You know all those ancient ruined fantasy empires? The ones where everyone lived like kings and people had powers hard far beyond anything the greatest wizards of the day do? They all fell for one reason or another.

If you really want to play during the heyday one one of those things, where there are likely no actual adventures or conflict to be found, you can do that, but I wouldn't recommend it.

Jerry · Post by **Jerry** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 2:43 am

Caliborn wrote: You know all those ancient ruined fantasy empires? The ones where everyone lived like kings and people had powers hard far beyond anything the greatest wizards of the day do? They all fell for one reason or another.

If you really want to play during the heyday one one of those things, where there are likely no actual adventures or conflict to be found, you can do that, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I was just thinking about theoretical magical economies.

As for my Tome games, I've adopted it to my Freeport game, and my group is having a splendid time. We have a Cleric of Death, a Barbarian, a Sorcerer, and an Awakened Black Bear Assassin (last one's comic relief).

One critique: Why would any Necromancer worth their salt (from a Gamist perspective) not take the "Child Necromancer" feat? -4 Strength (likely dump stat) in exchange for +4 caster level on Necromancy spells!

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:48 am

So, a female Child Necromancer would get a grand total of -8 STR? Wow.

Talisman · Post by **Talisman** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 4:56 am

Paladin: "It's the Grim Daughter! Quick, stop her!"
Rogue: "I throw my cloak over her." (rolls) "I get a 24."
GM: "Tremble, mere mortals, bef--mph!" She tries to throw it off...(rolls)...nope. She smothers to death.

Username17 · Post by **Username17** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:41 am

Why wouldn't you play a kobold? You get size, dexterity, and natural armor bonuses, guarantying you the highest armor class of any starting character. Perfect for a spellcaster of any type.

-Username17

JonSetanta · Post by **JonSetanta** » Sat Jun 14, 2008 9:25 am

Judging__Eagle wrote: I'd have asked for my character sheets, then left. I mean, what the fuck is wrong with the guy?

30-something obese computer tech support. Emotional maturity of a teenager.
He's dating a 21 year old GameStop employee, though...

I'd game with them again, since those two and their 2 other housemates are decent folks, but it was that one strange "in-joke" that apparently I didn't get.
My girlfriend chuckled for a bit, but it got old fast.
Maybe it's time to bug Calibron for a FnK campaign again, although my longtime gaming friend left for another city.