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[Talisman]

Sometimes a character just needs to be retired, no matter how popular (and lucrative) he is.

Driz'zt was genuinely cool for the first few books, but lately I can't even make myself care.

[Koumei]

Yeah, apparently they got bored and decided to fuck the Realms up again. I'm not counting on them solving any of the previous problems ("Too many forces of good/evil working all around the place so that the PCs seriously don't need to do anything." and "You can't throw a rock without hitting a named Epic mage*"), but they'll probably make some new ones.

And I hear random deities are getting killed off. Which is fine in theory - it could do with a culling - but we know I have my favourite FR deity, who isn't really important enough to survive a mass deicide.

*Actually, you'll fail to hit the named Epic mage, but only because of the Deflection bonus to AC and all that.

[Cynic]

And I hear random deities are getting killed off. Which is fine in theory - it could do with a culling - but we know I have my favourite FR deity, who isn't really important enough to survive a mass deicide.\.

I wonder if the gaming world would go into an uproar if FR suddenly went to a monotheistic viewpoint.

Is there a monotheistic WOTC/TSR setting?

[Crissa]

Most of the gods are written as though they were monotheistic.

-Crissa

[virgil]

www.evil-comic.com is a fun read, as the author is terrific with his word play

[Cynic]

Most of the gods are written as though they were monotheistic.

-Crissa

But the existence of the others aren't denied.

I probably should have phrased it along the lines of the typical Judeo-Christian monotheism. What would happen if such a scenario angled its way into D&D or has it done so already in a WizO setting?

[Crissa]

As Frank often points out, denying that other gods exist isn't a requirement for monotheism.

So I suggest that 4e is the answer to your question.

-Crissa

[virgil]

As Frank often points out, denying that other gods exist isn't a requirement for monotheism.

So I suggest that 4e is the answer to your question.

-Crissa

Now that's just a mean thing to say, Crissa.

Even suggesting 4e as an answer to my question especially a flavor answer.

[Cynic]

As Frank often points out, denying that other gods exist isn't a requirement for monotheism.

So I suggest that 4e is the answer to your question.

-Crissa

Now that's just a mean thing to say, Crissa.

Even suggesting 4e as an answer to my question especially a flavor answer.

EFFING hell. I need to stop doing this. Again, A_Cynic made the above comment and not Virgileso.

I'm currently being taken care of during the day by virgileso as I'm on medical disability and unable to drive, really shouldn't be left alone by myself for fear of falling down and hurting myself and not being able to get back up afterwards.

Note to self: Check the god damn user name before posting. ~_~

[angelfromanotherpin]

As Frank often points out, denying that other gods exist isn't a requirement for monotheism.

By the definitions I'm familiar with, it in fact is a requirement.

Henotheism is the worship of primarily one god while accepting that other deities exist and may be worthy of some worship.

Monolatrism is the worship of one god while accepting that other deities unworthy of worship exist.

Monotheism is the belief in one and only one god.

[Crissa]

Sorry angel, I'll just have to say you're wrong.

...Mostly because those terms don't accept that there are competing theisms in the world. One says 'within my theism, we accept that there are others' and the other says, 'there is nothing else!' and you know what? There's a whole spectrum of answers that it ignores.

I hate theists. Mono theist - one way. Whether a monotheist accepts that there are other people in the world or not doesn't change that they are monotheists.

The way you wrote it, monotheists can't exist in a world with any number of gods greater than zero.

-Crissa

[angelfromanotherpin]

...Mostly because those terms don't accept that there are competing theisms in the world.

Sure they do, and they have three different responses to other people's theisms.

• Monotheism simply declares that other theisms are false, or that the gods of other theisms are merely aspects of their own One God.
• Monolatrists agree that other theisms may have some validity, but that their Best God is the only one they give steak to.
• Henotheism says that their Best God is better than your god(s), but the second-best steak is available.

The way you wrote it, monotheists can't exist in a world with any number of gods greater than zero.

What? How does that follow at all?

Look, even if there actually were one thousand gods (one thousand more than I believe in, btw) who actually came down, walked around and performed miracles, and all had different names and personalities, Monotheists could (and probably would) still exist. They would claim that all those gods were either disguises, or multiple personalities, or otherwise partial aspects of a single unified divinity. And because of how logic works, there would be no way to actually prove that they were wrong. Just like there's no way to prove that theists of any stripe are wrong in a world with no evidence for divinity at all.

Dad was a Jesuit, so I have a pretty good grip of this kind of stuff.

[Cynic]

Dad was a Jesuit, so I have a pretty good grip of this kind of stuff.

angelfromanotherpin: Why does your father's jesuit status mean you have a good grip on all this? Is the point you are trying to make that just because he was a specific kind of monotheist that means you understand all definitions of monotheism? Because that's bullhockey.

Also I'm tempted to shorten your name to angel for I am lazy and do not want to type out the entire name. But I keep thinking I'm writing about my daughter and it's just weird responding to an online post and picturing the reader across that electric ether of wires and truck is my two-year-old daughter.

[Talisman]

...angelfromanotherpin, are you actually a two-year-old girl?

[Draco_Argentum]

The way you wrote it, monotheists can't exist in a world with any number of gods greater than zero.

And yet you don't appear to have a problem with them existing in a world with zero gods. What they believe defines their theology, not what actually exists.

[angelfromanotherpin]

angelfromanotherpin: Why does your father's jesuit status mean you have a good grip on all this? Is the point you are trying to make that just because he was a specific kind of monotheist that means you understand all definitions of monotheism? Because that's bullhockey.

No, I mean from the age of 17 he was deeply and rigorously educated in philosophy, theology, and logic, both within the context of Christianity and without. Then, while I was growing up, he talked with me about those things... a lot.

[Maxus]

Sometimes a character just needs to be retired, no matter how popular (and lucrative) he is.

Driz'zt was genuinely cool for the first few books, but lately I can't even make myself care.

Salvatore Update: Okay, I don't take back what I said about the beginning. The beginning sucked.

But The Orc King was a lot better than any of the Hunter's Blades trilogy was, even though it had a little too much of people conspiring while paradoxically not having much character development for the many, many people on Team Evil.

Also, Salvatore's still got some of his touch with fight scenes. There was a quite enjoyable fight where Drizzt, four dwarves, and Regis run into a Nightwalker and a Nightwing.

This book actually restored a little of my long-diminishing faith in Salvatore's Drizzt series. Enough so I'll read the next one, anyway.

[Cynic]

angelfromanotherpin: Why does your father's jesuit status mean you have a good grip on all this? Is the point you are trying to make that just because he was a specific kind of monotheist that means you understand all definitions of monotheism? Because that's bullhockey.

No, I mean from the age of 17 he was deeply and rigorously educated in philosophy, theology, and logic, both within the context of Christianity and without. Then, while I was growing up, he talked with me about those things... a lot.

Ahh... Well, I've known several Jesuits and your original statement was a generalization of the sort that if X is a jesuit then X is proficient in matters of Theism or at least definitions relating to different areas of Theistic philosophy.

Just for the sake of clarity, it would probably be better if you specified why you are actually qualified in the subject rather than some vagary such as I know a guy.

[Judging__Eagle]

I'm going to go out on a limb and go straight to the source:

"Do not have any other gods before me."

So, YHWH is the big one. Everything else has to be second.

It doesn't say "worship only me". It doesn't say "I am the only true god". It doesn't say "all other gods are false, save for me, worship only me".

So, any other interpretation is just that. Interpretation. As it is written, it's pretty straightforward.

That's pretty simple.

You can have other deities, but they've gotta be less important, and you can't go to them or have them before YHWH in any way.

The fact that it's simpler to worship one god is different than the fact that most 'monotheists' think that you're supposed to worship one god.

Also, you can't worship made objects. Ever.

Which just makes it easier to worship one deity.

So, other gods may even exist, but for the those that worship the Judeo-Christian flavour of faith, they're not allowed to worship deities of other faiths. Doesn't mean that they can say that Shiva doesn't exist, they're just not allowed to worship Shiva as a god.

Also, the thing about the Judeo-Christian faith is that pretty much anyone can get in. You just need to ask to be let in.

Good works don't cut it, and never have (something about how they count as a bribe, and you can never buy spirituality or heaven, you need to just have faith and ask for entrance).

[Draco_Argentum]

Judaism has YHWH as the greatest god. Catholicism puts God as the only god, see the Nicene Creed.

[angelfromanotherpin]

Catholicism claims to hold God as the only god, but it also has its ten thousand-odd saints, which any other religion would recognize as lesser gods.

Catholics aren't supposed to pray directly to the saint of... lets say doors, because otherwise there's not a lot of difference between him and Forculus, the god of doors. They're supposed to ask the saint of doors to pray to God on their behalf. The proportion of people who actually make that fine distinction is actually pretty small.

[Username17]

Judaism has YHWH as the greatest god. Catholicism puts God as the only god, see the Nicene Creed.

That's the core of it, pretty much. The other thing is that both religions claim themselves as monotheist. All the variant vagueries of monolateralism and henotheism and what ever are not universally agreed upon terms. Catholics distinguish themselves from Jews by saying that they are monotheist whilst Jews are henotheist because Jews believe that Dagon and Anubis are real gods that YHWH really fought in single combat and really defeated, while Catholics officially regard them as demons or metaphors or something. But Jews don't accept that distinction and claim that the word monotheist actually refers to what they believe and the Catholics can go suck an entire communion matzo for all they care.

Of course it's not super important. The flame of reason is not impervious and all people of faith are to one degree or another attempting to douse it.

-Username17

[angelfromanotherpin]

Hey, to be fair, science takes a few things on faith. I forget exactly what the axioms were, but it was something like:

1) The universe can be comprehended by people.
2) Our comprehension can be increased.

The assumption that those axioms are incorrect is the core of Lovecraftian horror.

There is the chance that science is wrong. Quite apart from top level physicists saying that our current models are fundamentally flawed, there's the old 'Flying Spaghetti Monster interfering with our experiments with His Noodly Appendage' line of argument.

I stand by science and reason as the best forms of thought available, as they gave us vaccines and internet porn. But Einstein spent a lot of his life delving into the workings of the universe taking on faith that there was something there to find besides gravity fairies laughing at him.

[Talisman]

Ultimately, unless you're in a position to perform independant research, a hell of a lot of science is founded on faith. Hell, a lot of common knowledge is founded on faith.

I've never observed a black hole, yet I accept that they exist.

I have no way of verifying whether those little twinkly things in the night sky are far-distant suns or very, very slow-flying fairies, yet I accept that they are they former, not the latter.

I've never circumnavigated the earth, yet I accept that it is spherical, not disc-shaped.

Ultimately, a lot of stuff comes down to "what makes sense" and "what you're told by people you trust and respect."

[Crissa]

That's not faith, though. That's trust.

Trust but verify.

That isn't faith.

-Crissa