Making Dispel Magic Short and Sweet

[Psychic Robot]

You can use dispel magic to end ongoing spells that have been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, to end ongoing spells (or at least their effects) within an area, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell. A dispelled spell ends as if its duration had expired. Some spells, as detailed in their descriptions, can’t be defeated by dispel magic. Dispel magic can dispel (but not counter) spell-like effects just as it does spells.

Note: The effect of a spell with an instantaneous duration can’t be dispelled, because the magical effect is already over before the dispel magic can take effect.

You choose to use dispel magic in one of three ways: a targeted dispel, an area dispel, or a counterspell:

Targeted Dispel
One object, creature, or spell is the target of the dispel magic spell. You make a dispel check (1d20 + your caster level, maximum +10) against the spell or against each ongoing spell currently in effect on the object or creature. The DC for this dispel check is 11 + the spell’s caster level. If you succeed on a particular check, that spell is dispelled; if you fail, that spell remains in effect.

If you target an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning), you make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured the object or creature.

If the object that you target is a magic item, you make a dispel check against the item’s caster level. If you succeed, all the item’s magical properties are suppressed for 1d4 rounds, after which the item recovers on its own. A suppressed item becomes nonmagical for the duration of the effect. An interdimensional interface (such as a bag of holding) is temporarily closed. A magic item’s physical properties are unchanged: A suppressed magic sword is still a sword (a masterwork sword, in fact). Artifacts and deities are unaffected by mortal magic such as this.

You automatically succeed on your dispel check against any spell that you cast yourself.

Area Dispel
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell affects everything within a 20-foot radius.

For each creature within the area that is the subject of one or more spells, you make a dispel check against the spell with the highest caster level. If that check fails, you make dispel checks against progressively weaker spells until you dispel one spell (which discharges the dispel magic spell so far as that target is concerned) or until you fail all your checks. The creature’s magic items are not affected.

For each object within the area that is the target of one or more spells, you make dispel checks as with creatures. Magic items are not affected by an area dispel.

For each ongoing area or effect spell whose point of origin is within the area of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to dispel the spell.

For each ongoing spell whose area overlaps that of the dispel magic spell, you can make a dispel check to end the effect, but only within the overlapping area.

If an object or creature that is the effect of an ongoing spell (such as a monster summoned by monster summoning) is in the area, you can make a dispel check to end the spell that conjured that object or creature (returning it whence it came) in addition to attempting to dispel spells targeting the creature or object.

You may choose to automatically succeed on dispel checks against any spell that you have cast.

Counterspell
When dispel magic is used in this way, the spell targets a spellcaster and is cast as a counterspell. Unlike a true counterspell, however, dispel magic may not work; you must make a dispel check to counter the other spellcaster’s spell.

Any advice on how to make this spell a little simpler? I'm wondering if removing the area effect would be a step in the right direction. I'm also wondering how much of a balance clusterfuck it would cause if a successful check stripped all the enchantments off a target while an unsuccessful check negated the entire spell.

[RandomCasualty2]

Personally I'd just change dispel to always be an area effects with the description : "All spell effects in the area have their duration instantly expired (even permanent durations)."

Get rid of the item suppression thing which is kinda pointless anyway, and just merge targetted and area dispel into one.

Yeah this makes dispel a lot more powerful, but I honestly don't care. It kind of sucked before, but this way forces you to choose between buffs and debilitating conditions since you automatically nuke all magic in the area.

[Voss]

That solution is pretty much the same as not having buff spells at all, as everybody starts a fight with quickened dispel magic. (usually through a rod). Except, it makes non-spellcasters even more useless, because they can't get rid of the spellcaster's buffs. So not only can they not be uber, they can't do anything about the fact that their enemies are, while any spellcaster vs. spellcaster battles automatically reset the board to zero.

It also means any long term uses of magic are pretty much reduced to nothing, as any punk can come along and end it on a whim. That... doesn't sound like fun.

[RandomCasualty2]

That solution is pretty much the same as not having buff spells at all, as everybody starts a fight with quickened dispel magic. (usually through a rod). Except, it makes non-spellcasters even more useless, because they can't get rid of the spellcaster's buffs. So not only can they not be uber, they can't do anything about the fact that their enemies are, while any spellcaster vs. spellcaster battles automatically reset the board to zero.

It also means any long term uses of magic are pretty much reduced to nothing, as any punk can come along and end it on a whim. That... doesn't sound like fun.

Well, dispel magic is supposed to beat buffs.

Buffs right now are incredibly awesome, because a dispel may not even take them out. This dispel buff actually make a dispeller really nasty against a buff-based character, as it should be.

I find if anything this is a boost to fighter types, because it makes it tougher for buff casters to completely steal their role.

[Psychic Robot]

Well, why not compromise? Allow it to be an area debuff, but force a caster level check? Or maybe make it targeted only?

[RandomCasualty2]

Well, why not compromise? Allow it to be an area debuff, but force a caster level check? Or maybe make it targeted only?

I was thinking maybe normal dispel could be targetted only, and greater dispel would be area.

The caster level check honestly just seems to slow down play and I generally don't like it.

[Psychic Robot]

Same, though I fear that it would become too powerful. Which is why I suppose that making it a single caster level check would greatly speed play.

[Username17]

I don't want to live in a world where everyone feels compelled to take a Rig of Counterspells (dispel magic) into battle, nor do I want to live in a world where 15th level characters bring 5th level Clerics to battle for major debuffing purposes. But I will say that dispel magic is both annoying and time consuming while being a supposedly signature spell that is nearly completely worthless.

My suggestion:

Dispel Magic still requires a Caster Level Check. But there's no cap on that check bonus. And you only make one caster level check. And it applies to every single spell effect in the area automatically. The targeted vesion indeed can go suck it, I don't even half care. So you make one check, and you dispel every single spell that is low enough level for that check result to be the win.

Greater Dispel Magic is much the same, except that it also forces everyone in the area to make a Will Save or have all of their Magic Items turn off until the next time the sun rises or sets. Greater Dispel can also have a targeted version where you pick a single spell effect or magic item and shut it off (permanently for a spell, until dusk or dawn for a McItem) with no level check and no saving throw.

The way D&D works, having people come in with 11th level casters on backup duty is pretty hardcore no matter what level people are. If someone is throwing a 6th level spell slot, they deserve to have something awesome happen.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

Well here's a toughy:

Should Dispel Magic work like the magic card Disenchant or like Tranquility?

http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/cardpics ... nchant.jpg

http://www.magicdeckvortex.com/cardpics ... uility.jpg

[K]

Caster level checks are an ass idea on first principles since it's just like a Concentration check but you didn't get to magic missile someone. Also, it offends my sensibilities to have everything in an area turn off with such a weak spell since it means that combat control becomes meaningless (if I've taken the time to draw three effects on a battlemat, I don't want to erase them all next turn because of one spell).

I'd probably go with a targeted version that destroys a single 4th level or lower spell and all its effects automatically with the 3rd level dispel magic version. The "targeting" conditions would be pretty loose so it'd be something like "whatever makes that guy on fire" or "the fucking web that we are in".

Greater dispel would take out 8th level effects, and disjunction doesn't need many changes (minus the BS about artifacts).

Magic in general should work like web where some other effect destroys it (fire in that instance). I really don't mind if people pop off cone of cold as a response to fireballs or if phantasmal killer trumps a guy using detect thoughts.

[Voss]

That solution is pretty much the same as not having buff spells at all, as everybody starts a fight with quickened dispel magic. (usually through a rod). Except, it makes non-spellcasters even more useless, because they can't get rid of the spellcaster's buffs. So not only can they not be uber, they can't do anything about the fact that their enemies are, while any spellcaster vs. spellcaster battles automatically reset the board to zero.

It also means any long term uses of magic are pretty much reduced to nothing, as any punk can come along and end it on a whim. That... doesn't sound like fun.

Well, dispel magic is supposed to beat buffs.

Buffs right now are incredibly awesome, because a dispel may not even take them out. This dispel buff actually make a dispeller really nasty against a buff-based character, as it should be.

I find if anything this is a boost to fighter types, because it makes it tougher for buff casters to completely steal their role.

Only if they have a pocket wizard to cast dispel magic for them. Really, this doesn't help fighter-types at all, it just means they have one more area in which they're completely reliant on having a spellcaster on their side.

The problem you're really having is with buff spells (and the relative crappiness of being a Fighting Man), not dispel magic. Bumping it up to Disjunction levels doesn't really help anything beyond beyond handwaving buffs away, and there is a simpler solution for that.

[Maxus]

Only if they have a pocket wizard to cast dispel magic for them. Really, this doesn't help fighter-types at all, it just means they have one more area in which they're completely reliant on having a spellcaster on their side.

The problem you're really having is with buff spells (and the relative crappiness of being a Fighting Man), not dispel magic. Bumping it up to Disjunction levels doesn't really help anything beyond beyond handwaving buffs away, and there is a simpler solution for that.

I want one of those. I suppose you could do the whole Pocket Creature line. If such is the case, I also want a pocket illithid.

[Talisman]

Pocket beholder FTW!

[Bigode]

Caster level checks are an ass idea on first principles since it's just like a Concentration check but you didn't get to magic missile someone. Also, it offends my sensibilities to have everything in an area turn off with such a weak spell since it means that combat control becomes meaningless (if I've taken the time to draw three effects on a battlemat, I don't want to erase them all next turn because of one spell).

Weird that you would miss piddly damage. But as for control, how many effects will vanish's mostly dependent on the (so far unspecified) area covered. BTW, I wonder whether dispelling just part of an effect would be feasible.

Magic in general should work like web where some other effect destroys it (fire in that instance). I really don't mind if people pop off cone of cold as a response to fireballs or if phantasmal killer trumps a guy using detect thoughts.

Well, I agree, but there being something to use as an universal counter doesn't seem bad in itself - also, you'd need a lot more descriptors to pull what you mention in a way that makes sense.

Also, I want a Pockethid too.

[RandomCasualty2]

Only if they have a pocket wizard to cast dispel magic for them. Really, this doesn't help fighter-types at all, it just means they have one more area in which they're completely reliant on having a spellcaster on their side.

Well, this isn't really a fighter versus wizard situation exactyl, so much as it is a global nerf to buffs. In fighter versus wizard, you're right that it wouldn't change much. But the game is based around PCs against monsters, not PCs fighting wizards every battle. A lot of monsters can fire off a dispel, and this significantly reduces the dominance of a buff based caster (and indeed any caster who leaves lingering effects). That's a good thing I think, given that battlfield control casters and buff casters are two of the most powerful types of PCs in the game.

[Koumei]

Also, I want a Pockethid too.

Pokethulhu. Google it. Download it. Play it. Seriously, it's awesome.

[Bigode]

Also, I want a Pockethid too.

Pokethulhu. Google it. Download it. Play it. Seriously, it's awesome.

We were talking about D&D. I have Pokéthulhu, and agree. Thanks for the protip anyway. Ah: weirdly enough, I have the actual book - a convention gave it for free - unbelievable, I know.

[JonSetanta]

I want a pocket destrachan. It would sit on my shoulder like a little lump of a tree frog.

[Koumei]

Bigode: Yeah, the reason I said to download it is in fact related to it being a legally free download. Many gems can be found like that.

But if it's specifically for D&D, I'm sure a Pocket Illithid could work. We just need to find some kind of "Really fucking small" template.