*D&D 4ed*

General questions, debates, and rants about RPGs

Moderator: Moderators

Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

At that rate why not just have abilities have a level appropriate chance to bloody a target and a level appropriate chance to drop a bloodied target? The whole pile of hit points is completely unnecessary, especially in the 4e style where there are hundreds and hundreds of them in piles.

Boss monsters could have additionally bloodied levels of pain, and minions could drop when bloodied. Problem solved, neh?

The underlying math of 4e isn't super good, but more importantly the entire accounting segment doesn't really add anything to the game. Not with the tiny bonuses, and not with the thing where you chip away at giant hit point piles.

-Username17
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote:At that rate why not just have abilities have a level appropriate chance to bloody a target and a level appropriate chance to drop a bloodied target? The whole pile of hit points is completely unnecessary, especially in the 4e style where there are hundreds and hundreds of them in piles.

Boss monsters could have additionally bloodied levels of pain, and minions could drop when bloodied. Problem solved, neh?
Well the main problem with this is that you don't really have anywhere to go as far as new abilities. The nice thing about a damage system is that you have varying degrees of damage, and thus have more granularity to balance things. In the system you propose, things would deal either 1 damage or 2 damage (bloody or kill). Which really doesn't leave you a heck of a lot of room to maneuver mechanics wise, because you can't have damage over time anymore and status conditions like stunning become pointless for the most part (why stun it when I can just kill it?)

While I agree that the piles and piles of hp are not a good thing, I don't think a 2 health level system is necessarily better. Maybe some kind of system like shadowrun could work, with about 10 boxes of health. And maybe you add your level to damage and your level also acts as DR. That gives a reasonable amount of granularity, since you can take health off in 10% increments.

And two hits to kill is still a very fast and deadly combat system. I personally think it's a bit better when the hits are around 3-4. Especially when you want to hand out interesting attacks, like area attacks, whirlwind attacks and cleaves and such. If it was all single target hits, then a 1-2 damage system could work for normal monster, but it gets totally crazy when you start factoring in area attacks. Then you need somewhat small segments of damage.
SphereOfFeetMan
Knight-Baron
Posts: 562
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by SphereOfFeetMan »

Someone on the WotC boards examined the 4e Wizard. It doesn't look so good: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042917
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
PhoneLobster
King
Posts: 6403
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by PhoneLobster »

Hmmm. I see Vaalingrad Ashland is still an anus made out of smaller anuses with its head (made out of anuses) shoved up all its other anuses.

Did I mention how much of an anus he is?
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

SphereOfFeetMan wrote:Someone on the WotC boards examined the 4e Wizard. It doesn't look so good: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1042917
Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points, and the cleric, by his figuring, does more damage.

I wonder if anyone's told him that no one is doing the damage needed to keep up with monster hit point growth, and that the math in 4e suggests that high-level combat is designed to last forever as you chip away at huge piles of hit points. Your powers just influence how big a chip you can take away at a time.

Anyway, I'd have more faith if he went through an analysis of the wizard powers and sized up their utility.
Last edited by Maxus on Mon Jun 09, 2008 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Jerry
Knight
Posts: 369
Joined: Mon May 19, 2008 7:48 pm
Location: planet earth

Post by Jerry »

Maxus wrote:I wonder if anyone's told him that no one is doing the damage needed to keep up with monster hit point growth, and that the math in 4e suggests that high-level combat is designed to last forever as you chip away at huge piles of hit points. Your powers just influence how big a chip you can take away at a time.
What about high-level combat against mooks and minions? Or is anything at high level supposed to have bucket-loads of hit points that take a long time to kill?
User avatar
angelfromanotherpin
Overlord
Posts: 9745
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by angelfromanotherpin »

Maxus wrote:Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points.
No, he's also saying that damage, even AOE damage, is ineffective 'control'; and that Clerics have almost as many 'control' effects as Wizards anyway.
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

angelfromanotherpin wrote:
Maxus wrote:Let me see if I have this right...

He's saying wizards suck because they can't do the damage needed to keep up with monster hit points.
No, he's also saying that damage, even AOE damage, is ineffective 'control'; and that Clerics have almost as many 'control' effects as Wizards anyway.
Now that I can see the point of.
Username17
Serious Badass
Posts: 29894
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Username17 »

Interestingly, I kind of don't agree. The secret to the Wizard after careful analysis of the problem is that everything they do except Ray of Frost and Cloud of Daggers is completely fake. By and large they don't even use their dailies and encounter powers because they are shit.

Cloud of Daggers does 1d6 + Int + Wis to a 3x3 area. In the long run, that's about the biggest attack in this whole damn game. It's better than that even, because the Wisdom Mod of damage doesn't need to roll to hit (meaning that it auto-kills all Minions, it's not a pile of damage for missing, it's a pile of damage for starting their turn in the area, which they get no choice about). Yeah, it's a pathetic pile of damage based on what kinds of hit points enemies have, but a d6 + two stat mods to two enemies beats the holy hell out of a d10 + one stat mod to one opponent all day long. Remember that at 1st level your Int Mod + your Wis Mod is going to be +7, and both will rise together over time.

And Ray of Frost is a Ranged 10 attack which drops enemy speed to 2 for one round. As long as the rest of your party is made out of other ranged characters (Laser Clerics, Rangers, Warlocks, or Wizards), you can do your whole attacking thing without ever closing to melee at all. That's a total win. Against any melee oriented enemy it's time consuming and boring as fuck, but it's a win. Ray of Frost does bullshit tiny amounts of damage, but if your opponent can't fight back I don't even care.

The Wizard thing is really weird and hard to wrap your mind around. But frankly I'm not convinced that any other class has anything to bring to the table that would make me willing to give up a Wizard. Even Ranger Damage is going to be hard pressed to keep up with Cloud of Daggers, and it's hard to imagine a more thorough fucking of a Hydra than that which is available with Ray of Frost spam.

The basic claim that Wizard Encounter and Daily powers are thoroughly underwhelming, that Magic Missile is so shitty that it isn't even worth casting, that's all true. But Wizards have what are likely the two best At-Will powers in the whole game. Not good, but as effective as anything in D&D 4e is allowed to be.

-Username17
Jacob_Orlove
Knight
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Frank: don't forget that if you cast Ray of Frost all the time, you can take a couple of "I'm an Ice Wizard" feats to give your enemies Cold Vulnerability (+5 damage with Ray of Frost) and Combat Advantage against anyone Vulnerable to Cold. Two feats for +2 to hit and +5 to damage is unreal fantastic in this system.

Also, Sleep is really really good in this system, because if people fail two saves, they actually lose. Even if they're only unconscious for a round, everyone can spend an action point and get two auto-crits. And with that stupid Orb thing, you can give your Wisdom mod as a save penalty (also basically unprecedented in 4e), so every time you cast Sleep, someone goes down hard.

But yeah, while Sleep and Ray of Frost are amazing for no reason, you get nothing that's actually better than those for the next 29 levels. It's bizarre.
Fwib
Knight-Baron
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Fwib »

FrankTrollman wrote:Cloud of Daggers does 1d6 + Int + Wis to a 3x3 area.
How do you make it hit a 3x3 area? I hunted around, but couldn't find how it was done :(
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

FrankTrollman wrote: And Ray of Frost is a Ranged 10 attack which drops enemy speed to 2 for one round. As long as the rest of your party is made out of other ranged characters (Laser Clerics, Rangers, Warlocks, or Wizards), you can do your whole attacking thing without ever closing to melee at all. That's a total win. Against any melee oriented enemy it's time consuming and boring as fuck, but it's a win. Ray of Frost does bullshit tiny amounts of damage, but if your opponent can't fight back I don't even care.
Yeah, it doesn't seem like they even looked at a kiting party much as a strategy.

Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.

The minion killing cloud of daggers is crazy awesome though. I really think they screwed up the timing on a lot of abilities; cloud of daggers auto-damage should be "if the creature enters the cloud or ends its turn in the cloud" Then it kind of lets you shove minions around without being completely dominant over them.
Last edited by RandomCasualty2 on Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
shau
Knight-Baron
Posts: 599
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by shau »

RandomCasualty2 wrote: Yeah, it doesn't seem like they even looked at a kiting party much as a strategy.

Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.
I don't know about that. You should not have to back up since everyone and their mother gets around 15 "push back you foe x number of squares" type powers. Against multiple melee brutes casting ray of frost could mean keeping one of them out of range for a turn. Which is still kinda bad, but seems good for the standards of this game.

Still, to make this really work you need to be fighting a melee baddy and also to have a party that does long range.
baduin
Master
Posts: 207
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 3:12 pm

Post by baduin »

It's not that bad. Apparently, two-weapon fighting Ranger with Blade Cascade can one-shot anything:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1040811

And Control Wizards with orb, especially Cleric multiclass, seem to be quite adequate at immobilizing, creating walls etc:

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1039126

There is also Seal of Binding - a slowly working no save and die power for a cleric:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php? ... stcount=11

On the other hand, math in Skill Challenges is completely broken:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=229919

Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.
"Omnes vulnerant, ultima necat."
RandomCasualty2
Prince
Posts: 3295
Joined: Sun May 25, 2008 4:22 pm

Post by RandomCasualty2 »

shau wrote:
I don't know about that. You should not have to back up since everyone and their mother gets around 15 "push back you foe x number of squares" type powers. Against multiple melee brutes casting ray of frost could mean keeping one of them out of range for a turn. Which is still kinda bad, but seems good for the standards of this game.

Still, to make this really work you need to be fighting a melee baddy and also to have a party that does long range.
In a dungeon, long range is pretty easy to beat, you just wait around a corner with a readied action. And then there's pretty much nothing they can do except come after you.
User avatar
Bigode
Duke
Posts: 2246
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Bigode »

RandomCasualty2 wrote:Though honestly this is only good in a select rare circumstance where:

-you're fighting one monster
-You have sufficient room to keep falling back without blocking your line of sight.

So that pretty much means it's only good when you're fighting a solo monster outdoors, or maybe after you've killed one of a pair of elites.
Sorry, but I completely fail to understand that - party enters place, enemies show up, party fires and retreats if they approach, directly backwards (to where presumably there wasn't any enemy - aside from stealth-based, who tended to trump kiting anyway).
baduin wrote:Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.
AFAIK, "having a bunch of cards with text written on it" is both the very height of EBD and effectively what 4E does.
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
User avatar
virgil
King
Posts: 6339
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by virgil »

A party could enter, fire, and backtrack. However, the enemy side can just as easily stay inside where it's safe and wait beside the door; as they're not required to leave to win the encounter (players being the aggressor).
Come see Sprockets & Serials
How do you confuse a barbarian?
Put a greatsword a maul and a greataxe in a room and ask them to take their pick
EXPLOSIVE RUNES!
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

baduin wrote: Finally, I don't agree that D&D 4e is constructed according to Exception-based design. This was 3e. Now we have Keyword based design, somewhat similar to Magic the Gathering.
I happen to prefer keyword design as it resembles computer code very closely.
The interactions between rules are predictable and save space in writing.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Koumei
Serious Badass
Posts: 13872
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: South Ausfailia

Post by Koumei »

FrankTrollman wrote:By and large they don't even use their dailies and encounter powers because they are shit.
When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.
User avatar
Psychic Robot
Prince
Posts: 4607
Joined: Sat May 03, 2008 10:47 pm

Post by Psychic Robot »

You just don't understand! The wizard's a controller, not a striker!
Count Arioch wrote:I'm not sure how discussions on whether PR is a terrible person or not is on-topic.
Ant wrote:
Chamomile wrote:Ant, what do we do about Psychic Robot?
You do not seem to do anything.
User avatar
Talisman
Duke
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity!

Post by Talisman »

Koumei wrote:When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.
Good God...disintegrate is a measly 5d10+Int? I am in awe of the sheer, appalling lameness of that. My Lame-O-Meter just broke.

What the hell is the deal with micro-damage + macro-hp? Rocket tag was an issue, true, but this...this...

...You do realize, it would take an army of wizards around thirty fvcking rounds to kill the damn beholder? That's assuming they all use disin - excuse me, mildly irritate every round.
MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.
User avatar
Maxus
Overlord
Posts: 7645
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Maxus »

Talisman wrote:
Koumei wrote:When I saw Disintegrate, I was very sad. 5d10+Int does not deserve such a title, as that isn't disintegrating anything. Not at that level, probably not 15 fucking levels ago when you were fighting level 4 monsters.

I checked a random level 19 (Disintegrate's level) solo - as that's what Daily powers are supposed to be used on. The Beholder Eye Tyrant had 900 hit points.

So at level 19, you have an Int of 25. Your average damage is 32.5 and that is a daily power. That is also what we call shit.

At least they get Narcotic Web though.
Good God...disintegrate is a measly 5d10+Int? I am in awe of the sheer, appalling lameness of that. My Lame-O-Meter just broke.

What the hell is the deal with micro-damage + macro-hp? Rocket tag was an issue, true, but this...this...

...You do realize, it would take an army of wizards around thirty fvcking rounds to kill the damn beholder? That's assuming they all use disin - excuse me, mildly irritate every round.
No...No...wait... *checks math*

They'd take 28 rounds with that damage!
User avatar
Talisman
Duke
Posts: 1109
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: The Cliffs of Insanity!

Post by Talisman »

Oh...silly me.
That's much better, then. Never mind. Carry on.
MartinHarper wrote:Babies are difficult to acquire in comparison to other sources of nutrition.
Jacob_Orlove
Knight
Posts: 456
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Jacob_Orlove »

Well, probably more like 25-26 rounds, since one or more of them will get a Crit.

But double that to 50 rounds, because you'll miss about half the time against a level-appropriate enemy.
User avatar
JonSetanta
King
Posts: 5525
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Location: interbutts

Post by JonSetanta »

Good sirs and madams, I am indeed severely appalled but this travesty of a Wizard.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote:
Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pm
Nobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Post Reply