Penny Arcade linked to an article about a Chinese MMO. It is very long, but worth reading. It's business model is evil.
http://www.danwei.org/electronic_games/ ... _in_zt.php
Worse than WoW...
Moderator: Moderators
-
SphereOfFeetMan
- Knight-Baron
- Posts: 562
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Worse than WoW...
There is nothing worse than aggressive stupidity.
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
That is an interesting comparison between cultural styles of MMO playing.
Frankly, I've had my fill of young Brazilians and Polish on the international free-to-play-but-you-suck-if-you-don't-pay Flyff game 2 years ago, some of the most scam-ridden and untrustworthy gamers I have ever met (sorry Bigode! no offense meant)
... but they were some of the most powerful.
It was a common assumption for non-Brazilians that to have one in your leveling group meant that you would never see rare drops.
Unfortunately a friend and I found this to be true.
But on their end, anyone with BR or PL at the end of their avatar name instantly alerted all others of the same nationality of their language, goals, and methods. There were Polish-only or Brazil-only groups everywhere, and such groups made allowances or exceptions for others of the same but not often for outsiders.
They guilded quickly, in gigantic numbers, to share resources openly and overwhelm any non-BR-or-PLs.
Economic heavyweights that shifted the in-game item economy like a tidal wave.
Hivemind.
And in an open, shifting-virtual-economy "jungle", shared national identity works.
Germans and many Europeans were exceedingly polite and cooperative (except French. they only responded to other French. and not French-speaking, but FRENCH French.). Leveling groups functioned like Japanese magical schoolgirl teams. Fatalities were rare. Agreements were kept.
I was glad to have learned German.
Sadly, with the arrival of German-Flyff, most Dutch, Belgian, and German players bailed instantly for calmer lands.
Asian gamers, mostly comprised of Malaysians, Viets, American-Filipinos (Pinoys, as they referred to themselves) and non-Asia-located Asians, consistently formed about 75% of all higher-level gamers in the eFlyff population. Most knew English, were polite, and talkative. Maybe too much.
Chinese in England, for instance, or Filipinos in Bay Area, CA, formed most of the guild my girlfriend and I belonged to. They sometimes took the game TOO seriously, easily playing 12 hour sessions on their days off.
They leveled about 4 to 10 times faster, also due to the (natural?) teamwork capability that the Korean-made MMO required; to surpass level 70 something, you MUST level up with partners.
And European (non-German) or American gamers are some of the WORST team player/partner-minded MMO gamers I have ever encountered.
And I'm one of them.
I'm hardheaded, untactful, ignorant of popular (read: overdone, safe) strategies in favor of the exotic or experimental tactics that work well, but only with patience or skill. I like the challenges.
In all, the international experience was enlightening since we would discuss cultural events, likings, and dislikings openly. The game setting pulled gamers of many nations to one place where they would never have in any other online environment.
As a side, indigenous Thai, Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese were not present unless located in other countries, due to the (shitty, haphazard, fickle) Korean business plans set up. Thais had a Thai-Flyff but it was withdrawn after a month due to some diplomatic bullshit with China and Korea, effectively robbing thousands of gamers of money for denied services.
Yes. No refunds.
Cuz that's how South Korea rolls.
I give up on Korean or Chinese MMOs.
Unbalanced game systems favoring social intrigue, one or two classes over all others, or money are all to common for these Asian import MMOs. Japanese might be OK, such as FFXI, but not pay-to-play.
I might do WarCraft since I've been a fan of the Blizzard mythology for half my life, but the price tag is atrocious for what you get, and the thought of dealing with American prepubescents online again makes me cringe.
Frankly, I've had my fill of young Brazilians and Polish on the international free-to-play-but-you-suck-if-you-don't-pay Flyff game 2 years ago, some of the most scam-ridden and untrustworthy gamers I have ever met (sorry Bigode! no offense meant)
... but they were some of the most powerful.
It was a common assumption for non-Brazilians that to have one in your leveling group meant that you would never see rare drops.
Unfortunately a friend and I found this to be true.
But on their end, anyone with BR or PL at the end of their avatar name instantly alerted all others of the same nationality of their language, goals, and methods. There were Polish-only or Brazil-only groups everywhere, and such groups made allowances or exceptions for others of the same but not often for outsiders.
They guilded quickly, in gigantic numbers, to share resources openly and overwhelm any non-BR-or-PLs.
Economic heavyweights that shifted the in-game item economy like a tidal wave.
Hivemind.
And in an open, shifting-virtual-economy "jungle", shared national identity works.
Germans and many Europeans were exceedingly polite and cooperative (except French. they only responded to other French. and not French-speaking, but FRENCH French.). Leveling groups functioned like Japanese magical schoolgirl teams. Fatalities were rare. Agreements were kept.
I was glad to have learned German.
Sadly, with the arrival of German-Flyff, most Dutch, Belgian, and German players bailed instantly for calmer lands.
Asian gamers, mostly comprised of Malaysians, Viets, American-Filipinos (Pinoys, as they referred to themselves) and non-Asia-located Asians, consistently formed about 75% of all higher-level gamers in the eFlyff population. Most knew English, were polite, and talkative. Maybe too much.
Chinese in England, for instance, or Filipinos in Bay Area, CA, formed most of the guild my girlfriend and I belonged to. They sometimes took the game TOO seriously, easily playing 12 hour sessions on their days off.
They leveled about 4 to 10 times faster, also due to the (natural?) teamwork capability that the Korean-made MMO required; to surpass level 70 something, you MUST level up with partners.
And European (non-German) or American gamers are some of the WORST team player/partner-minded MMO gamers I have ever encountered.
And I'm one of them.
I'm hardheaded, untactful, ignorant of popular (read: overdone, safe) strategies in favor of the exotic or experimental tactics that work well, but only with patience or skill. I like the challenges.
In all, the international experience was enlightening since we would discuss cultural events, likings, and dislikings openly. The game setting pulled gamers of many nations to one place where they would never have in any other online environment.
As a side, indigenous Thai, Koreans, Japanese, and Chinese were not present unless located in other countries, due to the (shitty, haphazard, fickle) Korean business plans set up. Thais had a Thai-Flyff but it was withdrawn after a month due to some diplomatic bullshit with China and Korea, effectively robbing thousands of gamers of money for denied services.
Yes. No refunds.
Cuz that's how South Korea rolls.
I give up on Korean or Chinese MMOs.
Unbalanced game systems favoring social intrigue, one or two classes over all others, or money are all to common for these Asian import MMOs. Japanese might be OK, such as FFXI, but not pay-to-play.
I might do WarCraft since I've been a fan of the Blizzard mythology for half my life, but the price tag is atrocious for what you get, and the thought of dealing with American prepubescents online again makes me cringe.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
What you need to do about the Polish players of Flyff is to work the Germans into a frenzy and get them to basically wage war against them, and then against the French.
I hear that doing that has proven fairly successful in the past, though less in the MMO scene and more in the "Real Life" scene. But really, what is life but just another MMO game? It simply takes virtual reality to the next level: actual reality.
Anyway, I'll admit to being the impatient kind - if I was to join WoW, I'd more or less expect to be able to buy my character up to "You're doing fun things instead of using the same weak spell over and over and fighting silly looking swamp monsters and dog-sized spiders all fucking day", l337 equipment included.
And Sigma, there is another option: get FFXII and play that. It has the feel of an MMO, and you can storm-trooper/power level on that for hours at a time, except you don't have to put up with other people. I once asked someone else if they could do some of the required storm-troopering for me in Makai Kingdom (awesome tactical game. Requires lots of levelling though, and the maximum level is 9,999 - with stats going into the millions), and his reply was "Sure, it'll be just like playing WoW except I don't have to put up with other players". He had a point.
I hear that doing that has proven fairly successful in the past, though less in the MMO scene and more in the "Real Life" scene. But really, what is life but just another MMO game? It simply takes virtual reality to the next level: actual reality.
Anyway, I'll admit to being the impatient kind - if I was to join WoW, I'd more or less expect to be able to buy my character up to "You're doing fun things instead of using the same weak spell over and over and fighting silly looking swamp monsters and dog-sized spiders all fucking day", l337 equipment included.
And Sigma, there is another option: get FFXII and play that. It has the feel of an MMO, and you can storm-trooper/power level on that for hours at a time, except you don't have to put up with other people. I once asked someone else if they could do some of the required storm-troopering for me in Makai Kingdom (awesome tactical game. Requires lots of levelling though, and the maximum level is 9,999 - with stats going into the millions), and his reply was "Sure, it'll be just like playing WoW except I don't have to put up with other players". He had a point.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
What I really want from an MMO is no leveling at all. I really honestly want people who are good at the game to be able to grab some basic equipment and go kill giants and dragons day one. The game would have to cater to different people by being playable in different ways - like Puzzle Pirates. But grinding has seriously got to go.
Casting spells and using rogue skills would involve the playing of mini-games which would vary in theme and difficulty based on what you were doing. For example "Elven Star Magic" would allow you to open up mini-games where little colored stars would appear on your screen and you'd have to either Traveling Salesman through it, match tiles, or click-drag them into order. If you succeeded within time limits provided, your spell would go off. Meanwhile "Dwarven Rune Magic" would involve stone squares with lettrs on them with which you would play Hangman, Book Worm, or Tetris. And of course, if you do it fast and well enough your spells go off. And if you want to pick locks, you play a spinning match-up game like hacking in Ghost in the Shell. Disarming a magical rune could involve something similar with lining up circular things so that you can find a path to the middle. And then of course you don't have to cast stellar cascade after grip of stone to bring down a minotaur, you are well within your rights to take a weapon and go play Unreal Tournament where you hack and dance and kill the minotaur before it kills you (obviously, different weapons play differently, as with any shooter).
One could imagine a situation where a player really liked only a small selection of the mini-games and used those ones over and over again. They could potentially be quite useful in a party if they got good enough at it - because sometimes you really need someone who can line up colored stars fast enough to really spam stellar cascades on things.
With no levels in the entire game, people would simply have a title, which they could select from their various in-game accomplishments. So if you personally killed a Shadow Lord you could put "Lifter of Shadows" under your name and people would know that you were hardcore, even though your actual stats and equipment would be the same as everyone else.
-Username17
Casting spells and using rogue skills would involve the playing of mini-games which would vary in theme and difficulty based on what you were doing. For example "Elven Star Magic" would allow you to open up mini-games where little colored stars would appear on your screen and you'd have to either Traveling Salesman through it, match tiles, or click-drag them into order. If you succeeded within time limits provided, your spell would go off. Meanwhile "Dwarven Rune Magic" would involve stone squares with lettrs on them with which you would play Hangman, Book Worm, or Tetris. And of course, if you do it fast and well enough your spells go off. And if you want to pick locks, you play a spinning match-up game like hacking in Ghost in the Shell. Disarming a magical rune could involve something similar with lining up circular things so that you can find a path to the middle. And then of course you don't have to cast stellar cascade after grip of stone to bring down a minotaur, you are well within your rights to take a weapon and go play Unreal Tournament where you hack and dance and kill the minotaur before it kills you (obviously, different weapons play differently, as with any shooter).
One could imagine a situation where a player really liked only a small selection of the mini-games and used those ones over and over again. They could potentially be quite useful in a party if they got good enough at it - because sometimes you really need someone who can line up colored stars fast enough to really spam stellar cascades on things.
With no levels in the entire game, people would simply have a title, which they could select from their various in-game accomplishments. So if you personally killed a Shadow Lord you could put "Lifter of Shadows" under your name and people would know that you were hardcore, even though your actual stats and equipment would be the same as everyone else.
-Username17
-
angelfromanotherpin
- Overlord
- Posts: 9745
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
I don't have a lot of MassMOG experience outside of WoW, but I found that WoW's system of levelling is actually a fairly gentle learning curve. You get your abilities one and two at a time, and learn how to integrate those into your current array to deal with the gradually increasing sophistication of the opposition.
Now, someone who's made it to the high levels as a warrior would never want to do that again, but just dropping someone with no Rogue play experience into the deep end as a Rogue is a stupidly bad idea.
On the other hand, I'm totally with Frank. Level-less is definitely the way to go. My friends and I brainstormed a couple of MassMOGs that had no levels, and were totally enthused. Not least because doing something fundamentally different is a good market model.
Something I'd really like to see is something I called 'Implicit Puzzles.' Big puzzles that only exist if you look for them, and which don't hold your hand, and which made the in-game lore meaningful.
Example: Say there are some big ancient lost-civilization cities in the game, and one which is sealed up because the opening word was lost. If you find out what the opening words were for the other cities (probably in their libraries), you could discover that they were the names of the first children of the city's founders, then you'd have to hunt down that information, probably indirectly by finding the parent's names and deducing the lost civilizations naming inheritance laws, and so on.
But at no point is that a quest handed out to people or any guidance given. The player has to have the idea and do the research and the deduction.
Now, someone who's made it to the high levels as a warrior would never want to do that again, but just dropping someone with no Rogue play experience into the deep end as a Rogue is a stupidly bad idea.
On the other hand, I'm totally with Frank. Level-less is definitely the way to go. My friends and I brainstormed a couple of MassMOGs that had no levels, and were totally enthused. Not least because doing something fundamentally different is a good market model.
Something I'd really like to see is something I called 'Implicit Puzzles.' Big puzzles that only exist if you look for them, and which don't hold your hand, and which made the in-game lore meaningful.
Example: Say there are some big ancient lost-civilization cities in the game, and one which is sealed up because the opening word was lost. If you find out what the opening words were for the other cities (probably in their libraries), you could discover that they were the names of the first children of the city's founders, then you'd have to hunt down that information, probably indirectly by finding the parent's names and deducing the lost civilizations naming inheritance laws, and so on.
But at no point is that a quest handed out to people or any guidance given. The player has to have the idea and do the research and the deduction.
-
CatharzGodfoot
- King
- Posts: 5668
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: North Carolina
The problem is, Frank, that skill games are almost impossible to do remotely ... And most strategy gamers don't want skill games or twitch games to interrupt their strategy game.
EQ2 tried the mini-game system and the able-to-play-dungeons instantly.
Certainly the grinding to make yourself better issue is troublesome... But there are few ways to dole out the rewards slowly enough that users don't outpace development.
I'm not sure the pay-or-suck paradigm is a good one, but it certainly gets many players. Flyff was adorable. If only North American games could be as pretty...
Would anyone play a game that did not become easier from the rewards? Would anyone invest in such a game?
-Crissa
EQ2 tried the mini-game system and the able-to-play-dungeons instantly.
Certainly the grinding to make yourself better issue is troublesome... But there are few ways to dole out the rewards slowly enough that users don't outpace development.
I'm not sure the pay-or-suck paradigm is a good one, but it certainly gets many players. Flyff was adorable. If only North American games could be as pretty...
Would anyone play a game that did not become easier from the rewards? Would anyone invest in such a game?
-Crissa
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Something important I think is that there shouldn't really be "respawns" of anything. Quests shouldn't be repeated over and over again, it's dumb. Instead, the world should just be extremely large and there should be a lot of stuff to do. It's a MMO, it's not a real country. Eventually advances in computers and the relentless drumbeat of the market will force you to make a sequel, so there's nothing gained by making the universe steady state if you aren't requiring every single player to kill five red hippos before they get to the highest level. The longest running MMO in history (Ultima Online) had to reboot the entire game engine after 10 years - essentially making an entirely new game.
The game world is going to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. You can just have big events go down. Invasions by the Ogre King's army, the rise of the Shadow Lord, crazy crap. And you can have it happen on a real schedule. If the events are big enough and require enough people's actions to handle, the game's following can be as immersed as you'd want. Simply put the Ogre King's Army will start pouring over the mountains and launching scout patrols and stuff, and events will trigger if enough damage is done to the total army. If you accomplished enough anti-Ogre King partisan activity when the army is turned back, you get a special title option based on how much you accomplished. If you personally did damage to the Ogre King when he finally took the field, you get another title option.
You can also have randomly generated "unique" quests that are first come-first served. The wilderness can have a lot of crypts, caves, and dungeons in it that are simply unknown and if people find them they find them and start showing up on maps. Monsters can come in and start wrecking things, and merchant caravans can wander from one side of the world to another and people can find out about those things and react accordingly. A dragon should be a big deal, and it should take a lot of people to take it down, but it shouldn't spawn every day. It shouldn't respawn ever. Killing a dragon can and should give you a unique title for the dragon you personally took down.
But basically a MMO needs to accept the fact that it is not steady state. EQ has had 14 fucking expansions in less than 9 years. The world is ready for accomplishment based progressing game play.
The fact that not playing the game will cause you to genuinely miss content will act as an effective lure for people. As much or more so than the abstract idea that you're going to fall behind the curve.
-Username17
The game world is going to have a beginning, a middle, and an end. You can just have big events go down. Invasions by the Ogre King's army, the rise of the Shadow Lord, crazy crap. And you can have it happen on a real schedule. If the events are big enough and require enough people's actions to handle, the game's following can be as immersed as you'd want. Simply put the Ogre King's Army will start pouring over the mountains and launching scout patrols and stuff, and events will trigger if enough damage is done to the total army. If you accomplished enough anti-Ogre King partisan activity when the army is turned back, you get a special title option based on how much you accomplished. If you personally did damage to the Ogre King when he finally took the field, you get another title option.
You can also have randomly generated "unique" quests that are first come-first served. The wilderness can have a lot of crypts, caves, and dungeons in it that are simply unknown and if people find them they find them and start showing up on maps. Monsters can come in and start wrecking things, and merchant caravans can wander from one side of the world to another and people can find out about those things and react accordingly. A dragon should be a big deal, and it should take a lot of people to take it down, but it shouldn't spawn every day. It shouldn't respawn ever. Killing a dragon can and should give you a unique title for the dragon you personally took down.
But basically a MMO needs to accept the fact that it is not steady state. EQ has had 14 fucking expansions in less than 9 years. The world is ready for accomplishment based progressing game play.
The fact that not playing the game will cause you to genuinely miss content will act as an effective lure for people. As much or more so than the abstract idea that you're going to fall behind the curve.
-Username17
-
angelfromanotherpin
- Overlord
- Posts: 9745
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Most MassMOGs require more skill the higher level you are in any event. Having more options means having more ways to screw up, and the enemies are designed toward maximum expected stress.Crissa wrote:Would anyone play a game that did not become easier from the rewards? Would anyone invest in such a game?
People play games with non-buffing rewards all the time. Winning a boxing belt doesn't make boxing easier. Getting a high score in Tetris doesn't make Tetris easier. Frank's 'titles' thing is like those - recognition rewards.
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
WoW has scheduled 'story' events, according to my girlfriend.
And as by immitation, so did Flyff, albeit in a simple and item-collection driven or "Kill X monster" manner.
I'd like many of today's pay to play MMOs to at least have level caps if one plays for free, effectively barring all high level interesting game play from guests, casual observers, boppers, experimenters, fad-chasers, and whatnot.
If people have the money, they buy in-game stuff. If they don't have money, to waste, they're not going to buy anything. And when you charge an entrance fee, you won't even bring those potential customers close to making even a tiny purchase.
And here's an interesting fact:
In Flyff, a huge portion of sales came from purchase of "cash shop items".
Not because it helps them win but because it looks "cute", "cool", "funny", or "powerful"!
It doesn't make sense on a strategic level, and as such perhaps Chinese professionals would never understand the idea, but for teens (and most importantly, that so-called 'underestimated female gamer audience') the draw is HUUUUUGE.
Given the following options in a free-to-play game, which do you think a 12 year old gamer girl (one of the biggest supporters of the Japanese economy) would go for?
A) A powerful "14 star" Godly Black Iron Sword of the Heavens or whatnot
B) An assload of in-game gold
C) A huge, ugly but powerful and fast Epic Mount
D) A cute little non-combat pet that squeeks and runs around or a useless but detailed fancy outfit available in a variety of colors
.... then guess what my girlfriend spent a total of at least $42 USD on in eFlyff one year ago.
And as by immitation, so did Flyff, albeit in a simple and item-collection driven or "Kill X monster" manner.
I'd like many of today's pay to play MMOs to at least have level caps if one plays for free, effectively barring all high level interesting game play from guests, casual observers, boppers, experimenters, fad-chasers, and whatnot.
If people have the money, they buy in-game stuff. If they don't have money, to waste, they're not going to buy anything. And when you charge an entrance fee, you won't even bring those potential customers close to making even a tiny purchase.
And here's an interesting fact:
In Flyff, a huge portion of sales came from purchase of "cash shop items".
Not because it helps them win but because it looks "cute", "cool", "funny", or "powerful"!
It doesn't make sense on a strategic level, and as such perhaps Chinese professionals would never understand the idea, but for teens (and most importantly, that so-called 'underestimated female gamer audience') the draw is HUUUUUGE.
Given the following options in a free-to-play game, which do you think a 12 year old gamer girl (one of the biggest supporters of the Japanese economy) would go for?
A) A powerful "14 star" Godly Black Iron Sword of the Heavens or whatnot
B) An assload of in-game gold
C) A huge, ugly but powerful and fast Epic Mount
D) A cute little non-combat pet that squeeks and runs around or a useless but detailed fancy outfit available in a variety of colors
.... then guess what my girlfriend spent a total of at least $42 USD on in eFlyff one year ago.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
Don't worry, Sigma; I hate Brazilians too. While I don't know how people of any country behave in MMORPGs (except for the vague knowledge I'd rather not have of Brazilian behavior), I do know it was them that wrecked Orkut and seized it for their own retardations* (seriously, I once did a search, when I had to have an account for a group project, and found nothing interesting whatsoever); also, I have the extremely dubious honor of knowing them personally (I believe that if I don't hate someone, it's because I don't know them well) - fortunately my English (and hopefully German in little time) is good enough that people in the Internet know I have opposable thumbs before knowing where I was born.
*: if anyone cares, the best description might be "exactly what happened at Paizo, except that there weren't timeouts - people just figured they wouldn't be allowed to have rational discusion".
And Frank's ideas (and the ones in that thread) are about what it'd take to actually make me play a MMORPG (and I'd still avoid servers with Brazilians).
*: if anyone cares, the best description might be "exactly what happened at Paizo, except that there weren't timeouts - people just figured they wouldn't be allowed to have rational discusion".
And Frank's ideas (and the ones in that thread) are about what it'd take to actually make me play a MMORPG (and I'd still avoid servers with Brazilians).
Last edited by Bigode on Tue May 06, 2008 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hans Freyer, s.b.u.h. wrote:A manly, a bold tone prevails in history. He who has the grip has the booty.
Huston Smith wrote:Life gives us no view of the whole. We see only snatches here and there, (...)
brotherfrancis75 wrote:Perhaps you imagine that Ayn Rand is our friend? And the Mont Pelerin Society? No, those are but the more subtle versions of the Bolshevik Communist Revolution you imagine you reject. (...) FOX NEWS IS ALSO COMMUNIST!
LDSChristian wrote:True. I do wonder which is worse: killing so many people like Hitler did or denying Christ 3 times like Peter did.
You can't do that, Frank. Ever.
Scale.
With one game, there's a million users and one dev. That's because he uses programs to create the content. But with a game that creates the content by hand - like most games - the closest scale you have is one dev and a thousand customers.
If content - a dragon - is used only once, how many customers did that entertain? Would that be plausible?
It's bad enough that many games use the mass of customers - most who never see level cap - to pay for content that is only seen by a far minority of the users.
The normal formula is that for every ten users, there's one that will complete all the content. Fewer than a hundred thousand people saw the final pre-Burning Crusade dungeon, worldwide. Out of ten million people who played the game.
And you're suggesting a storyline that would not have any repeats.
It's not economically plausible.
-Crissa
Scale.
With one game, there's a million users and one dev. That's because he uses programs to create the content. But with a game that creates the content by hand - like most games - the closest scale you have is one dev and a thousand customers.
If content - a dragon - is used only once, how many customers did that entertain? Would that be plausible?
It's bad enough that many games use the mass of customers - most who never see level cap - to pay for content that is only seen by a far minority of the users.
The normal formula is that for every ten users, there's one that will complete all the content. Fewer than a hundred thousand people saw the final pre-Burning Crusade dungeon, worldwide. Out of ten million people who played the game.
And you're suggesting a storyline that would not have any repeats.
It's not economically plausible.
-Crissa
WoW has had two world-scale events. The Gates of An-Quraj and The Sunwell Offensive.
In the two big events, things happen which only happen once - however, they only complete after n number of players have participated (or players have participated n times).
There are many other, smaller, but repeating events. The faire is in Shattrath this week, for instance. Last week everyone got a chance to foster an orphan (and get a cute pet). These events are merely quests, NPCs, and window-dressing that is available for a short amount of time. I kinda like these, because it means the game is different sometimes.
But these are far from what Frank would like.
I did like Flyff's idea, where quests and events were offered to you. There wasn't a repop, because everything was instanced; you'd get a quest or two, go to a small village only created for that group and quest, and what you did there was what you did there. If you defeated the dragon in the village, it no longer was threatened by a dragon; but someone else might get the same exact quest and they'd get a fresh instance of the village threatened by the dragon. Or hobbits. Whatever those goblin things were...
I haven't seen a world with a storyline and reactive world since Horizons. There's Empire of the Burning Sands, or whatever, but that's kinda like Puzzle Pirates. In Horizons, you could dig in the mines and build bridges and expand the world. Goals were slowly added by the developers, designed so that they'd have another goal or two ready before the players had finished the prior one. If you cut trees for lumber, you'd have to wait for them to regrow - generally by moving to another grove - and if you munched all the monsters in an area, they wouldn't return until you left. Or other monsters might march over and start a fight with you. But that took far too much server power, and that game no longer exists in that fashion - and there's no other games like it currently available.
Static Repops, repeatable quests, etc are just a simpler way of keeping players busy and the world small and populated.
If you can design a profitable business plan, we can build an MMO around it. But it's much more difficult to build a profitable business plan around an MMO.
-Crissa
In the two big events, things happen which only happen once - however, they only complete after n number of players have participated (or players have participated n times).
There are many other, smaller, but repeating events. The faire is in Shattrath this week, for instance. Last week everyone got a chance to foster an orphan (and get a cute pet). These events are merely quests, NPCs, and window-dressing that is available for a short amount of time. I kinda like these, because it means the game is different sometimes.
But these are far from what Frank would like.
I did like Flyff's idea, where quests and events were offered to you. There wasn't a repop, because everything was instanced; you'd get a quest or two, go to a small village only created for that group and quest, and what you did there was what you did there. If you defeated the dragon in the village, it no longer was threatened by a dragon; but someone else might get the same exact quest and they'd get a fresh instance of the village threatened by the dragon. Or hobbits. Whatever those goblin things were...
I haven't seen a world with a storyline and reactive world since Horizons. There's Empire of the Burning Sands, or whatever, but that's kinda like Puzzle Pirates. In Horizons, you could dig in the mines and build bridges and expand the world. Goals were slowly added by the developers, designed so that they'd have another goal or two ready before the players had finished the prior one. If you cut trees for lumber, you'd have to wait for them to regrow - generally by moving to another grove - and if you munched all the monsters in an area, they wouldn't return until you left. Or other monsters might march over and start a fight with you. But that took far too much server power, and that game no longer exists in that fashion - and there's no other games like it currently available.
Static Repops, repeatable quests, etc are just a simpler way of keeping players busy and the world small and populated.
If you can design a profitable business plan, we can build an MMO around it. But it's much more difficult to build a profitable business plan around an MMO.
-Crissa
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
The primary concern for any in-game tweaks for MMOs is quantity over quality.
For instance, Flyff and WoW don't have stellar graphics. Look closely and you see the pixel blurs, vector joints, warping when characters move, polygon gaps, and so on.
... But the cheap graphics are viewed by a multitude of gamers, constantly. The key is to seek the lower common denominator, rather than the rare few with the best graphics processors.
It's the gestalt of the viewing experience rather than "Hey gaiz look how much RAM we can eat up in displaying this single suit of reflective, shining plate mail!"
See for comparison: Neverwinter Nights 2, one of a long line of MMO-wannabe flops. *spit* May Bioware choke on their own maple syrup.
Anything you change, at all, affects thousands of people and their investment of time and money.
The developers must think big scale on EVERY aspect.
What can you do to satisfy the most amount of people, gain the most profit, and cut as much loss/spending as possible?
For instance, Flyff and WoW don't have stellar graphics. Look closely and you see the pixel blurs, vector joints, warping when characters move, polygon gaps, and so on.
... But the cheap graphics are viewed by a multitude of gamers, constantly. The key is to seek the lower common denominator, rather than the rare few with the best graphics processors.
It's the gestalt of the viewing experience rather than "Hey gaiz look how much RAM we can eat up in displaying this single suit of reflective, shining plate mail!"
See for comparison: Neverwinter Nights 2, one of a long line of MMO-wannabe flops. *spit* May Bioware choke on their own maple syrup.
Anything you change, at all, affects thousands of people and their investment of time and money.
The developers must think big scale on EVERY aspect.
What can you do to satisfy the most amount of people, gain the most profit, and cut as much loss/spending as possible?
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
-
Cielingcat
- Duke
- Posts: 1453
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
Ah, pardons.Cielingcat wrote:Neverwinter Nights 2 was Obsidian's failure, not Bioware's.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
-
Username17
- Serious Badass
- Posts: 29894
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
The key with dragons is having random dragons. Each one has a different combat plan and slightly different abilities and stats. And a name. Randomly generated content is the way to go for a lot of it. Only when you make an instance, you just leave it there and let other people explore it as well.
The other thing you'd want to do is allow people to go on vision quests to practice fighting certain monster types. This sets up a genuine instance and what you get out of it is just the practice, and losing or winning carries no consequence. You can hide the various places to go on these vision quests all over the world.
Remember that people are getting the same rewards for playing as they are for Counterstrike. It probably won't appeal to a lot of the MMO crowd, and I regard that as a good thing.
-Username17
The other thing you'd want to do is allow people to go on vision quests to practice fighting certain monster types. This sets up a genuine instance and what you get out of it is just the practice, and losing or winning carries no consequence. You can hide the various places to go on these vision quests all over the world.
Remember that people are getting the same rewards for playing as they are for Counterstrike. It probably won't appeal to a lot of the MMO crowd, and I regard that as a good thing.
-Username17
-
Draco_Argentum
- Duke
- Posts: 2434
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
Content has to be either player generated or computer generated for Frank's idea to work. Shooters are player created for example, they create the enemy and some people even build new maps for a lot of games. This keeps the players in without requiring a lot of developer time (read money) to do it. LotR online lets people play the monsters as well as their character. I haven't played it but it sounds like a decent way to liven up the enemies rather than a standard dull MMO AI. Has anyone tried this game?
One thing WoW manages is playability with 400ms ping times. Blizzard can get away with only a few server farms because of this. Shooters simply can't do this. I can't play on US servers and have any fun at all in CoD4 for example. The difference in required infrastructure makes quite a difference for something the size of an MMO.
One thing WoW manages is playability with 400ms ping times. Blizzard can get away with only a few server farms because of this. Shooters simply can't do this. I can't play on US servers and have any fun at all in CoD4 for example. The difference in required infrastructure makes quite a difference for something the size of an MMO.
-
PhoneLobster
- King
- Posts: 6403
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
And we totally have the technological capability for in game computer or player generated content.Content has to be either player generated or computer generated for Frank's idea to work.
Because frankly we are talking about the technological requirements of a randomised pick a path adventure or Mr potato head and that shit is pretty simple.
The fact that there ISN'T that sort of stuff is due to massive laziness in programming/creative writing, complete apathy toward consumer satisfaction and fear of innovation.
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
My guess is mostly fear of innovation, which is ironic since hackers (well, the ones writing the programs) are the most innovative people I've seen online.
Give players the power to compile their own classes, races, spells, weapons, and outfits and you have yourselve either one headache of a graphics issue (all the objects to load at one time) or a genius MMO concept.
Give players the power to compile their own classes, races, spells, weapons, and outfits and you have yourselve either one headache of a graphics issue (all the objects to load at one time) or a genius MMO concept.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
-
JonSetanta
- King
- Posts: 5525
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
- Location: interbutts
Gawd.. that game. I tried to run it on this computer a year ago and here's the result:Crissa wrote:You have a headache of a graphics issue.
Second Life. It's either beautiful or ugly, but it's never easy to render.
New this last week: A method to tell other players how much rendering time they're taking up on your screen.
-Crissa
First it was rendering for 5 minutes. Then I was a floating hairpiece for 2 minutes, bobbing slowly across a laggy, desolate field of grey.
And then it crashed when I flew.
It did work on my girlfriend's spanking new thousands-of-dollars Dell, though. But other than yiffing, chessgames, /b/ style mansions on private islands, or cybering with distasteful characters, I really didn't see much interesting.
Maybe you can code objects to have HP and damage values, and play a semi-Counterstrike, but from what I've read on the subject it hasn't produced very good results in Second Life.
But maybe it will be better in a few years.
In the meantime I will sacrifice pretty graphics and dashing landscapes for efficient, fast game play. Call me old fashioned but that's what works for the larger audience.
The Adventurer's Almanac wrote: ↑Fri Oct 01, 2021 10:25 pmNobody gives a flying fuck about Tordek and Regdar.
People play paintball, skate board, etc all the time in Second Life.
It looks as though your computer was not up to snuff, no. But if it can't play Second Life, it probably can't play WoW, either, unless one of the sucky things your computer has is a slow processor or low bandwidth, as WoW doesn't have to stream the entire world to you as you wander around.
Anyhow... It is true that many game designers are very innovative. What is also true that that game designers don't have money, and consequently, release less games than big money companies.
Think, how many people owuld play a Harry Potter MMO? Guess how many Harry Potter MMOs have been designed? How many were released?
That's your real answer there.
-Crissa
It looks as though your computer was not up to snuff, no. But if it can't play Second Life, it probably can't play WoW, either, unless one of the sucky things your computer has is a slow processor or low bandwidth, as WoW doesn't have to stream the entire world to you as you wander around.
Anyhow... It is true that many game designers are very innovative. What is also true that that game designers don't have money, and consequently, release less games than big money companies.
Think, how many people owuld play a Harry Potter MMO? Guess how many Harry Potter MMOs have been designed? How many were released?
That's your real answer there.
-Crissa
Answers: Millions of players. More than five. And... Zero officially - though another is close to release this year.
-
Draco_Argentum
- Duke
- Posts: 2434
- Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm
If Spore ends up being good it might get things moving in that direction. Its bitten off a lot though, I'm a little skeptical about whether it can chew it all. Still, the ability to create things easily might catch on even if the game itself ends up trying to be too many genres at the same time.PhoneLobster wrote:And we totally have the technological capability for in game computer or player generated content.