My first Rage Spiral.....

[K]

So, I kind if went off the deep end on this other board.

Does that make me a veteran or noob when it comes to boards?

http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/pa ... instCR8Foe

[PhoneLobster]

Gotta love that Lich Loved guy (what sort of necrophilia nut calls themselves that?)

I mean hey he is arguing essentially not that the CR rules SHOULDN'T be the way they are, the idiot fails to realise he is actually arguing that they AREN'T the way they are.

And he is railing against a total abstraction. I mean, wow, he doesn't even know what entirely arbitrary CR or EL a single character of a certain level should be?

You know WHY he doesn't know? Because ideally in his fantasy world the perfect variable measuring comparative character strength is not allowed to actually compare character strength.

Because then you might be able to make judgements about the fighter. And that would be wrong...

I hate that shit, he basically starts from the fully formed spontaneous premise that it is unfair to pick on fighters then in order to protect it from any criticism or even analysis denies the CR/EL system exists as it does, or should exist, or CAN exist.

[Koumei]

I'm glad I stopped reading when he got to his qualifications, by the sound of it.

I'm far too easily trolled, even though I *know* the Internet isn't serious business. Sounds like he just managed to find your "Nerd Rage" trigger, K.

[K]

It probably doesn't help that I'm hopped up on energy drinks and haven't slept and knee deep in a take-home Civil Procedure final.

Eh, maybe I'm just a douchbag.

[SphereOfFeetMan]

So, I kind if went off the deep end on this other board.

Does that make me a veteran or noob when it comes to boards?

I'm going to have to go with noob in this case. But only because you let the aggressive stupidity get to you, and influence your later posts.

I don't know if this is the case, but you aren't actually trying to change the minds of those such as Lich Loved or Aubrey the Malformed, are you? Remember, they are just foils of stupidity which you and Frank can use to illustrate good game design. Whenever you get into an argument with someone who seems apocalyptically retarded, and you feel the need to explain your point in minute detail, you help all the non-retards who will later read the thread. Frank's CR and EL thread, and Maxus's first response is the perfect example.

I lurk a lot on other boards (and used to on this one), and many times the Stupidity-Foil posters are very useful. They force intelligent rebuttal, which is often more nuanced than it would otherwise be. This helps intelligent readers gain a firmer grasp of the topics discussed.

The only danger of course is that the stupidity will turn aggressive and try to browbeat reason with repetition and baiting. Which seems to be the case here. I can see two options from this place: 1) Out-Flame them (not worth your time). Or 2) Make a last ditch effort to make your point in the most simplistic and distilled manner that any reasonable person later reading it will come to realize you are correct. Since you are only really trying to make the point to a few people (Paizo game designers), you don't need to worry about the flamers.
_______________________

That said, this is what I might have done in that situation:

Get super pedantic. Explain in minute detail the mathematical principle of X = X.

Give an example party of 4 Vow of Poverty level 8 Fighters. Have them fight a group of 4 Npc Vow of Poverty level 8 Fighters. They are exactly the same (wealth is factored out). Lich-Loved states that the party is the independent variable and the monster is the dependant variable. Ask him how the independent variable can simultaneously be the dependant variable, and not be equivalent.

At this point, how can he not see that they are the same?

Answer: He has chosen what to believe, but you might change the minds of those you care to.
_______________________

Oh, and Lich Loved's first post was a pain to parse. This was especially true when he continuously intermingled correct and incorrect assertions along with higher math. There is an appropriate quote that I think fits this situation:

"The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one's real and one's declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink." -George Orwell

[angelfromanotherpin]

So, I kind if went off the deep end on this other board.

Does that make me a veteran or noob when it comes to boards?

That's not really the deep end. You lost your reserve, but when your opponents refuse to debate rationally, the only reasonable responses are ignoring them and/or mocking them.

When you assert the heliocentric universe, and they rebut with 'the sky fairy hates you,' (which Lich-Loved is doing a variant of while attempting to disguise it with math), there's no discussion to be had with that person. Engaging them will only cause them to retreat further into whatever persecution complex they're experiencing. Ignore them completely and keep making your points to people who might actually be convinced.

[Prak]

Before I get into the meat of my response however, I would like to state my qualifications. I hold a BS in Electrical Engineering (with qualifications for a minor in mathematics). I utilize multivariate complex vector calculus (calculus involving multiple complex variables where variable "direction" is important), topology (the mathematical kind), spacial mapping, polar stability charts, Z and Fourier transforms and systems of partial differential equations daily in my business. I mention this because the following discussion will likely be somewhat mathematical and I want to assure readers that I have the background to carry out these discussions confidently. OK, with that out of the way...

what. the. fuck? What the hell does any of that have to do with simple fucking math!? I graduated high school having done no higher than Algebra 2, and have done no math since, and I can fucking understand the premise that frank puts forth. what the hell does electrical engineering bullshit have to do with that!?

And k, it sucks that there are so many cockbites on the paizo boards. I sa we invite them here and give them a taste of how we act in our home, and see if it alienates them to the degree that their home behaviour alienated us.

[CatharzGodfoot]

It seems like a big part of Lich's problem with Frank's assessment of the rules is the idea that a balanced character should do about 50% against some set of EL-appropriate challenges, but that individual characters will do better against different challenges. It seems like he takes the 1 vs 1 balance point to mean that every character should go 50-50 with every EL-appropriate challenge. Maybe someone better at writing than me could try to make that point.

[virgil]

Not gonna work. I tried to point it out myself, at least twice, but he just stuck his fingers in his ears.

What makes matters all the dumber...

Yep. Frost giants are flat tougher than human barbarians, no doubt about it. I fail to see where this is wrong, though.

I do believe he's actually disagreeing with the mathematical property of X=X (forget the official term).

[Bigode]

Not gonna work. I tried to point it out myself, at least twice, but he just stuck his fingers in his ears.

What makes matters all the dumber...

Yep. Frost giants are flat tougher than human barbarians, no doubt about it. I fail to see where this is wrong, though.

I do believe he's actually disagreeing with the mathematical property of X=X (forget the official term).

While the part of him being an idiot I agree wholly with, he can say this without contradicting himself (to some extent): first, various (idiot) people of that group have said that a party synergizes in a way that'd make individually weaker PCs beat the opposition (of course, the part where this fails is that multiple monsters are perfectly able to accomplish synergy and that's factored within CR calculation, but I'm not sure any designer ever knew that, so ...); second, he might be in part led by Pathfinder's reduction of PC-classers' CRs - 11th-level wizards now have CR 9 (how I miss the rolling smiley ...).

K: while I'm behind SphereMan's advice, I'd call it only natural. The actual thing that has been keeping me from going off the hook similarly's just posting at Paizo has been a pain in the rear itself; so, I often got extremely irritated with idiocy, only to shortly thereafter by extremely irritated with my inability to post ... But, with a "rage spiral" (sic), in addition to only wearing black (which's at least expected at your profession, not a "reason" for ostracism), I have even more reason to wonder if you have white hair - does Frank have an artificial skeleton?

But anyway, since Frank's likely reading this too: guys, try to just forget you have spines - don't say or address anything personal for some time; then, you'll be able to report stuff with hands clean, and anyway, if you just dismiss their ad hominem arguments as such, discussion will need to go on your terms (a.k.a. solid data). And while yes, I read Frank's mail about polarizing, but it starts being counterproducive when it locks threads, puts oneself on suspension, or even under the banhammer.

[JonSetanta]

I bring a gift from /tg/.

Always think of yourself making this expression when you feel the Nerd Rage coming on. It should give you that heaping dose of reality so duly needed.

[Bigode]

Don't bring gifts from /tg/. And you know what? I'm actually saying it seriously, because I'd otherwise foresee the day when I'd open a NSFW picture (as, IMO, this one already might be considered) in a LAN house (you bet I'm at one now).

[JonSetanta]

Does that make me a veteran or noob when it comes to boards?

It makes you a human on the internet like anyone else.
Everyone has their ups and downs, and the internet records it all. One can go back and read it 5 years later and think "Why did I write that? Did I really write that?" but what's done was done. It's not stone but the words are near permanent in both hard disks far away and minds of the readers.

The dangerous part of internet ragin' is getting stuck in that mode as I've seen too many do.
A person gets addicted to that feeling of AH FUCK IT HATE ____, TIME TO GO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT because it's a comfort zone they've trained themselves to enjoy.

How you've avoided nerd raging for so long is beyond me, unless you have done it in the past but forgot?....

[Username17]

Basically, I don't think Paizo is going into a direction that is in any way workable. I'm off that project.

-Username17

[Absentminded_Wizard]

Nobody can make any more points in that thread, since it's been locked.

K, it looks like the biggest thing you did was drop down to the level of the thread. This kind of thing is why I stopped posting to WotC 5 years ago. When the boards went through one of their periodic flamestorms, I got myself sucked into the attitude of one of the threads. That's when I knew it was time to go.

Fortunately, somebody at least tried to make the point I would have wanted to make if I had been able to post. Basically, even if Lich Loved could somehow prove that you can't extrapolate winning percentages for solo characters based on CR, that still doesn't invalidate solo playtesting. If you find that spellcasters beat equivalent-CR challenges 80% of the time and fighters only best such challenges 30% of the time, it's a balance problem. If some classes absolutely need a team behind them while others can beat most challenges single-handedly, somebody's over- or underpowered.

Now I'm going to have to scour the Paizo boards for Frank's history with LL. It seems like he overreacted, based on the content of that thread alone. LL seems to have been educated beyond his intelligence, but he didn't personally attack anybody in that particular thread. Of course, my eyes could have glazed over while reading that first post to the point where I missed a blatant flame, but the guy seems so boring I kind of doubt it.

EDIT: I wrote this post before the last 4 or so posts were submitted because I took a while to read all 3 pages of the Paizo thread.

[JonSetanta]

Pardons. One more post today on this subject, since it's very intriguing in a .. ahem... scientific manner.
Damn, what a fascinating situation over there on Paizo.

Frank Trollman, Yesterday, 07:34 AM
11-xilldestrachan 1 avatar

Lich Loved, you are a terrible human being and a terrible scientist. Not only have you created not one, but now at least two (or more?) threads specifically to flame me, but there were seriously already threads on exactly this concept that you had already been linked to. You deliberately created a flame thread in a place I rarely go and then didn't link to it in any of the ongoing discussions. You are a lousy debater and a morally decrepit individual.

See also: http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/306/06/

Lich-Loved should spend time on /tg/. He would feel at home there. What a douche.

[Prak]

I may regret this, but I do have a paizo account, so if anyone wants me to post something for them, I will do so if they message me here with what they want to say on what thread.

[Orion]

Frank, seriously? I honestly thought thigns were going rather well.

For instance, the designers promised to look at Sorcerers again, and even said he might give them more known spells. They also revised polymorph based on our comments, although obviously the revision leaves something ot be desired. Still, I think we're making headway.

[Bigode]

Prak, I might ask something in that vein - but, hell, if I decide to keep posting, I can certainly use my 6th e-mail account (not making it up, and not thinking I'm the only one here with 6, either) to do so. Thanks.

Frank: honestly, I feel we (I'm still thinking about starting 1 or 2 threads) could still add input (though I do know you might not consider using another username for it, if you're in timeout as I seem to be); but, I'm certainly not considering even addressing those people - i.e. say something insightful, look who sees it, and drop the heck out.

Boolean: yes, they've said they'd look again at the sorcerer, but tell me, do you honestly think they might consider lowering polar ray to level 1?

In that vein: Frank, this might sound cruel and dismissive and such, but ... did you at any point think there was a chance of Pathfinder adopting the wish economy? I mean, I could count on them addressing the entirety of "Actually Broken Stuff" even, but ... people ... only go so far, I suppose ...

[SphereOfFeetMan]

Bigode: There are so many posters on Paizo with solidly held destructive game design beliefs...it would take a monumental effort to get even some of the needed fundamental changes. Frank and K would have to post like madmen for weeks (or months?) to even get a few problems half-fixed. I'm guessing that sounds less and less appealing when there are people trolling you.

In that vein: Frank, this might sound cruel and dismissive and such, but ... did you at any point think there was a chance of Pathfinder adopting the wish economy? I mean, I could count on them addressing the entirety of "Actually Broken Stuff" even, but ... people ... only go so far, I suppose ...

The Wish Economy in Dnd 3.x is just the natural state of the gameworld as defined by the rules. It was never argued that that was the way it should be, just the way it is. However, even though the Wish Economy was unintended by the designers, it fixed many problems (and created a few).

Paizo changed it so Wish Economy no longer exists, so the gameworld functions more like the original game designers intended. However, even though they "fixed" it, they have actually made some aspects of the economy and gameworld worse.

If they replace the Wish economy with something better, all to the good. But I doubt it. As things look now, it could as likely as not be worse than the unintended ramifications of the original game designers.

[JonSetanta]

I may regret this, but I do have a paizo account, so if anyone wants me to post something for them, I will do so if they message me here with what they want to say on what thread.

I just signed up today. So count me in too. But otherwise I won't be making any statements.
That place is, incredibly, more close-minded than WOTC or certain individuals here.

[Draco_Argentum]

Basically, I don't think Paizo is going into a direction that is in any way workable. I'm off that project.

-Username17

I'm suprised you didn't figure that out right off the bat. They are explicitly attempting to be backwards compatible with some of the problems with 3.5

K, you let the drama get to you. So yes you are an internet noob. The correct thing to do was find a way to get LL out of passive aggressive and onto overt aggression.

[ckafrica]

Well my experience with internet is that people don't really think about saying things others that they would never say to a person's face. So people who might be perfectly fine in person can be absolute dicks when they are behind of the safety of a computer. Basically the internet makes people assholes.

Mind you that is what makes me reluctant to most most places. Being dismissive to a persons ideas does rub people the wrong way pretty quickly.

One poster over there accused an idea I had as metagaming, whatever the fuck that is, I just figured it wasn't worth commenting back but it pissed me off because he addressed no issues to my proposal nor my reason for posting it.

As I want to hear what Frank and K have to say and want their ideas to be integrated into the game, your response style is divisive and will raise heckles. I'm not sure of the value of beating your heads against obstinate people like lich loved who obviously are not will to see you line of reasoning, no matter how reasonable it is. Perhaps posting defending it once and leaving it might have more productive results and improve the product in the long run. That dude Epic Meepo seems to have gotten much better response from Buhlman even if his ideas ain't nothing hot.

That being said I do enjoy watching you guys rip someone a new one. Good reads that :twisted:

[CatharzGodfoot]

[Jacob_Orlove]

Man, that panel gets posted a lot.