Playtesting 4e

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Voss
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Playtesting 4e

Post by Voss »

because I was bored, and had nothing else I wanted to do with my day.

So, I took the available info and did something with it. The pregen characters from the wizard's site for D&D XP, and various monster stats that are lurking around ENworld. here: http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=220393
Though I can't say that all the stats are actually accurate. I had tried some others earlier, but they that were a little less, interesting since I was still getting used to the system changes- several human, kobold and hobgoblin encounters along with the ones I used here-

So, anyway. I had originally planned on 7 encounters on a big map. 2 sort of blurred together though, and I was mildly surprised it didn't turn into a bugfuck, though the terrain had a a lot to do. On a whim I decided to add two more, the Mearl's stupid dragon encounter from D&DXP, and the party against a level 10 chuul, with 4 kobold minions. And yeah, these are still level 1 characters (though for encounters 5-8 they have a low level magic item each... which matters a little from time to time.

So here are the encounters, monsters are a rough description of the area.
And I was using a hex map, so I didn't have to worry about some of the stupid shit with diagonals and square blast effects. I'm going to refer to shit as squares to keep it consistent with the system itself. Oh, and I'll give the approximate XP total, and monster level/types.

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#1 single room, 6 x 9, no terrain to speak of. 700 XP:
1 hobgoblin warcaster (level 3, 'controller' or rather, blaster, since all he does is throw energy damage around).
2 hobgoblin soldiers (level 3, soldier).
2 goblin picadors (level 2, controller. they harpoon you and drag you about. Somehow, with their 16 str).

Summary- the soldiers are absurdly good speedbumps. if they're adjacent, the ac is 22, which is rough for level 1 pcs.
The warcaster has some strong damage effects, but he doesn't really 'control' shit. He's also targeting defenses rather than AC with his magic attacks, which means they hit a lot.
The picadors are annoying, but couldn't pull much. The set up is annoying drawn out over 2 rounds, and dragging the characters away from the soldiers would actually be stupid.

Conclusions- there is an element of rock/scissors/paper going on. Casters hit melee experts easily, and often hit harder than the meleers do. On the other hand, melee guys will butcher a caster in close combat. And this applies on both sides. The tanks basically meet in the middle, and the first one to open a path to the other side's back line wins.

As always with D&D, concentration of fire wins, which makes the new wizard a little odd. He's good for clearing minions, but his damage is frankly shitty against real monsters (and I'd really like to know how hit points are calculated. there are 3 level hobgoblins, and they have 39, 46 and 47 hp respectively. The spellcaster has the 46, by the way, and the archers are 39 hp). Force orb, the wizard encounter power and acid arrow, the daily are seriously doing what strikers are doing all the damn time with at will powers, with some minor collateral damage to people in the area.

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#2- a plethora of kobolds, 700 XP again
4 kobold minions (level 1, die on hit)
2 kobold dragonshields (level 2 soldiers)
2 kobold slingers (level 2 artillery
1 kobold wyrmpriest (level 3 artillery)
a short corridor branches off into two smallish (4x5) rooms with another room connected to both in the back. 1 dragonshield is in each front room, with the 2 slingers and a minion in one, and 2 minions in the other, while the wyrmpriest and final minion lurk in the back. Crates and tables create some obstacles and cover

The room set up makes a big difference, especially when the two defenders spot kobolds in one room and not the other, and both go charging into the same room, leaving the rest of the party exposed to a flanking attack. The cleric also got dropped, (and would have had there been kobold skirmishers rather then slingers due to the extra damage they get from having combat advantage).

The spellcaster monster dominated the fight again, nailing the paladin with energy attacks and by the end of the fight, dropping the cleric and ranger with a blast attack. The damage is just... higher, and they are attacking smaller numbers. This isn't as apparent in the PCs (at least at first level). The strikers do more damage, regardless of arcane or martial attacks, and the spellcasters are attacking without a weapon proficiency bonus (usually +2 or +3) on top of their stat bonus, which means that despite attacking the usually lower defenses, they aren't hitting much more often (against some monsters, they aren't hitting more often at all).

I also don't know why this guy is 'artillery (leader)' and the hobgoblin is a 'controller' they both toss energy at people, and the wyrmpriest hands out temporary hitpoints to friendly kobolds as well (I guess thats the leader tag). Of course, I also don't know why the hobgoblin has an extra 10 hit points, even though the rest of the stats are similar. Defenses are exactly the same, except Will, which is 1 point higher on the kobold.

To be continued...
Last edited by Voss on Mon Mar 31, 2008 2:36 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Voss »

#3 (and #4)
This was originally going to be 2 seperate encounters, but the way it played out, well... I decided not to be stupid about the monster actions.

a 2 hex wide corridor leads into a crypt. small guard rooms (2x3) are just outside the entrance. The crypt itself is about 12x8, and has a small room opening off one side. 6 crypts line the back wall, and two more line a side wall, just before the entrance to the side room.
2 human guards (level 1 soldier) and
2 human bandits (level 1 skirmisher) lurk in the guard room
they were to be joined by
2 skeletal warriors (level 3 soldier) a solid 700 XP encounter, which is slightly high for 6 level 1 characters (should be 600, but I was curious if it made a difference- it really kinda doesn't). The skeletons were on a slight delay, and would join the fight in turn 3.

The next encounter involved a human mage in the secondary room
level 4 (artillery, leader) and
6 vampire spawn (level 6, minion, 10 hp each, but decent attack and defense bonuses though they only deal 3 damage each- 5 if the target is bloodied (half hp)) These are off a DDM stat card, so I wasn't sure of the XP value. I was estimating a quarter of a level 6 monster (normally 300), like the kobold minions are level 1 and 25 xp each. making this encounter 625 xp

So the two of them combining worried me. Basic set up, the guards heard the PCs coming. One moved forward to investigate, the other fell back to give the bandits room to jump in. (The guards have reach on their turn, and have a nasty knockdown attack). However the PCs gained up and absolutely annihilated the first guard. So the second, realistically, I felt, ran to fetch his boss at the start of turn 2, while the bandits tried to delay the PCs. The bandits prove a slightly durable speedbump for a turn.

Turn 3 opens with the skeleton warriors moving and charging the party (actually the ranger, who ends up having to back into a guard room) in the narrow corridor while the mage takes a turn to wake the spawn from their crypts. The skeletons are really slowing the party down. allowing the vampires to close in and the mage to start tossing is area attacks. The first is just damaging, but the second dazes fully half the party.

The wizard actually managers to finish off the skeletons and the one vampire minion that managed to close in melee. At this point the cleric managed to move in and vaporize half the vamps with turn undead (the vulnerable 5 trait on the undead made him the king of the encounter), and the npc mage was out of area spells and down to plinking with magic missile. After that, it was just a matter of chasing him down and taking off his head.

At this point, the pc's were pretty beat up and rested after finding the secret room with some minor magic items. (A few got previewed on ENworld a little while back). Essentially the paladin and dwarf got +1 to ac, the warlock +1 to defenses, the cleric +1 to his magic attacks/damage and the ranger got +1 to his ranged attacks/damage, and the wizard got an item that could heal a little more. Whee. (The only wizard appropriate item was higher level and absurdly powerful).

So with rest, everything resets and they're ready for the next encounter.

But yes, once again, the spellcaster was the focal point, and again, its solely on the merits of damage dealing. Only this time its area damage (and daze on one of his spells) rather than just big damage to one target. One the other hand, the hobgoblin has a recharge mechanic, while this guy... once he casts his two spells, he's down to plinking people with magic missile. Same as the PC wizard at level one, really.

Clerics make undead a lot easier, as in previous editions... as long as they don't waste their chance to turn undead by using one of their other 'channel divinity' powers (you can only use one... or at least, the sample character can only use one).

This double encounter didn't go as badly as I feared it would. Mostly because the PCs stayed in the narrow corridor and couldn't get mobbed by all the damn vampire spawn. It helps that the human mage is a gimp after his first two attacks and no other monsters had ranged attacks.
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Oh, as an aside, there have been some tweaks to the sample characters since they were originally posted. The ranger just does 1d10 (+d8 with hunter's quarry) with his careful shot attack (which is at additional +4 to hit) rather than 1d10+4, which makes it less of a no brainer. Also some of the language got cleaned up. Spells no longer require implements, so no harry potter wand shit, at least until you find one that gives you +X to attack and damage with implement based spells.
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Post by Voss »

#5 700 XP
big cave, various crates, fires, barrels etc. One big cave with 6 kobold minons, 2 side caves in the back with 1 gnoll marauder (level 6, brute), and 2 human berserkers (level 3 brute)

So yeah, this was a sad little cakewalk, mostly because these berserkers suck. They hit reasonably hard, but the damage is low, and their defenses are frankly shit. So they get hit a lot, and then they die. And despite the marauder being 5 levels higher, and having 84 fucking hit points, he went down fairly readily. The minions were a minor distraction, and had to be dealt with to avoid flanking.

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#6. 775 XP, 6x10 cave, irregular with all sorts of shit. Again, pretty easy, partly because it was
2 berserkers
2 guards
and a bandit

a cavern choker (level 4 skirmisher) joined in on turn 4, but it was really too late, as the rest had been pretty much dealt with. Originally he was just going to grab whoever was nearest when he appeared, but frankly the fight got too easy. Of course, he missed his grab attempt from hiding and the party perforated him. Hurrah for one shot gimmick monsters.

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#7. 600 XP, small cave with a narrow entrance
Gnoll Daemonic Scourge (level 8, brute)
Gnoll Claw Fighter (level 6 brute)

I was a little cautious about this encounter because of the level 8, but it went pretty quickly. Largely because the party all had their action points and most of their daily powers and spent the first two rounds going nova on the poor Scourge. After that, it didn't last long, though the scourge did manage to beat the fighter into unconsciousness, and the claw fighter almost dropped him again after the cleric and paladin healed him back up.

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# 8 was a little different, partly because I just wanted to go for overkill and just test some things.
So a Level 10 brute, a Chuul and a handful of kobold minions (600 xp), back in the big cave.

This... got a little stupid. The Chuul has 106 hit points, 27 AC, 21 Fort, 20 Ref and 21 Will. So the melee guys are hitting only on a 20, the spellcaster ons roughly a 16+ and the ranger on 17+.

I actually ran this twice. First time, the wizard critted with sleep and the chuul promptly failed its save. Everybody opened up with their dailies, melee guys auto-criting with large attacks (35 damage) and everybody else at an additional +4 (and maybe a +2 for combat advantage too, but I wasn't clear on if that stacked). So yeah, due to the dice fluking out, they murdered a level 10 critter at *1st level* in 3 rounds. With sleep this actually works out relatively often- the wizard needs a 16+ to hit, and the chuul falls to sleep on a save of 9 or less.

2nd time the party still one. The paladin got mauled, paralyzed and kept getting mauled for 3 rounds, but the clerics healing kept him alive long enough for the rest of the party to kill it while it was beating on him. Some bad rolls meant it missed several key attacks. I was actually expecting him to be ripped to shreds by turn 3.

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Last battle, party versus Mearl's Stupid Fucking Dragon.
280 hit points. And fairly high defenses, though less extreme than the Chuul's so it was actually easier to hit it. And it does a lot less damage. Seriously, its damn attacks are so weak that it actually takes a while to kill a single level 1 character.

Battle opens with nova strike- daily powers, action point, encounter powers. This stripped about 100 hit points off the dragon, and dropped 3 'save ends' effects on it, as well as a blanket -4 to hit from one round from the warlock. (Who had just moved up and surrounded itself with darkness). I decided the wizard's light spell would counter that, though neither explicitly says so, which meant that half the party had to delay.

After that, however... it degenerated into the grind. The recharge effect on the breath weapon kept it from breathing for quite a while, but the kicker came when it got bloodied, and used its immediate breath attack followed by its actually breath attack. The ongoing acid damage pretty much dropped the cleric, fighter and paladin. What followed was roughly 12 rounds of the wizard, warlock and ranger trying desperately to kill it while it ate them. It was really, really boring. The dragon finally dropped the warlock when it was at 2 hit points, though invisibility from eyebite was the only thing that kept her alive that long.

This seriously became a lame-ass exercise in statistics as the party tried to grind away its hit points. Extra healing would have made a difference. Of course, if the party was actually level 4 and had +2 to their attacks for being level 4, 15-20 extra hps each, and some basic magic items (I didn't use those for this encounter), and the other powers they'd get over 3 more levels, I'm not even sure it would even be a challenge. It would be slightly less of a grind, but I'm not sure it would be interesting, even then.
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Post by Voss »

So, some thoughts. Overall, the system is growing on me a bit. It helps that paizo seems to be going out of its way to demonstrate that 3e isn't salvageable.

The characters are odd. They're pretty limited at first level, particularly since almost everything is a damaging attack. Several of them suck horribly because they're really fucking unoptimized. The wizard is stands out because his int is maxed out and its the only stat he actually uses, while the cleric and paladin are suffering under serious multiple ability dependence, and two of their major stats are in the same 'defense group'- wisdom and charisma are alternates for Will saves, so they pretty much have to dump reflex, because they both seem to want strength as well. (Which also means they have lower than average hit points, which matters at level one, because they can't buff Con).

The fighter is good at his role, but his at will attacks are a little on the boring side. On the other hand, the combat challenges (aside from marking, which sucks) mean that if he pins someone in melee, they stay or get punished for it, which is nice.

The ranger's selection of powers is...odd. Careful attack is a gimme, because you want to hit, and you're totally tossing roughly 10 damage around each round at +10. But the encounter power only matters if someone gets in your face, and the daily power, as written, requires you to have to targets. Sucky when you're facing one large monster. But mostly you spam careful attack and hope the dice don't fluke on you.

The warlock, to me, has a lot more flavor, but damn, you are entirely dependent on the dice roll for everything you do. And given the (fairly high) defenses of the sampled monsters, you're pretty much going for a 50/50 attack all the damn time, and that sucks a little. Especially when you blow your encounter or daily power.

But stupid non-level appropriate encounters aside, its largely fun. I think the system will limit some of the stories you can tell, but some of that depends on what the rest of the system looks like. Maybe some special shit is hiding in the rituals, multiclassing and noncombat material that they're hiding so well.

The monsters, by the way, seem pretty generic. You could reskin them pretty much at will and not even care. Different description, weapons and change some of the effects, and wouldn't be bad. The only thing hard to swallow is the massive jump in power for a lot of these creatures- kobolds are damn dangerous, and the 'give' in the monster system makes for some interesting possibilities, as well as stupid shit like that damn dragon. On the other hand, its possible that low level monsters will still be an issue for reasonably high level heroes. If a pack of first level characters can take down a 10th level monster, I can see a large pack of low level monsters still being an issue. Particularly with the sample wizard spells that we've been shown at levels 10-16. You're still only dropping 20-30 damage, at those levels, which 3rd level monsters can totally survive.

Overall, some good and bad here. But I think it looks slightly better than the clusterfuck that 3e is. At least the classes seem to be playing the same game this time around. Dealing with some of the stupid shit the dev's are forcing on the players will be annoying, and save or lose spells did seep through (just in a really obnoxious way), but a lot of the pure garbage isn't apparent in the stuff thats available now. But it may be present later, and I will miss some of the character concepts that are just gone for the time being.
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Post by Crissa »

http://kensan-oni.livejournal.com/414242.html

Someone else also hitting the scenarios being tossed out.

...

One question: How can it not be better than a 'clusterfuck'?

Okay, I'll be fair, you used a slanted finishing sentence, which really blows the meaning out of anything else you said. Be clear and let things stand - if 3e had problems, that's fine, but irrelevant to your comment about 4e.

Honestly, I see nothing that makes me think 'D&D' in 4e, and nothing that says 'play me' or even 'roleplaying' in it.

-Crissa
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Post by Voss »

You go into dungeons and stab things in the face. Sounds like D&D to me.

Someone may find it worse than the clusterfuck. But I'm willing to admit to my biases. I'd rather go back to BXCMI than play 3e (or 2nd) again.

But really, I wasn't looking for inherent D&D-ness or role-playing-ness. The first is too subjective to even care about, and we've had the stupid argument about the second before- its pretty much independent of the ruleset. There aren't any rules for role-playing in any version of D&D, so whatever- you do that outside the confines of the system regardless.

There are a couple places where the system reminds both the players and the characters that its a system, but a good DM can ignore the bad PR [npc's essentially having 'rezzable' or 'plot critical' flags isn't a good thing, you morons] from the WotC designers and hide that shit from the players. (ie, don't show the players the NPC flags that indicate that they die at 0 hp and can't be rezzed unless they're plot critical. Or just ignore that stupid shit in the first place)

The big downside is there are things you just can't do out of the box, at least with PCs. No necromancers, barbarians or even shit like bards or druids. On the other hand, the npcs are seriously reskinnable.
The mage in encounter 3/4? Totally could have been a necromancer. He paused to 'raise' the vampire spawn in the first place, which just struck me as a decent flavor thing (and totally invisible to players since they had no way of knowing that the spawn were just there to begin with), and the rest of his spells coulld have been changed from force, lightning and thunder damage to negative energy (or rather... necrotic) damage and it seriously wouldn't matter.

So the monster system seems pretty flexible, assuming the DM isn't an idiot, and you can tell a lot of stories just by fudging the hell out of it (but I mean just in a descriptive way, not actually changing numbers). If the DM is an idiot, well, nothing can ever fix that problem.

The power levels take some getting used to. I'm not comfortable with kobolds that you can seriously beat on repeatedly with a greataxe, especially when they're standing next to other kobolds that die if they trip over a rock. (though actually that isn't true, thanks to the stupid wording, they're immune to any damage that doesn't come from 'an attack'). At the same time, PCs that can take on a level 10 monster and win at first level are just as funky. But a lot of that has to do with the healing mechanic- always getting a quarter (or more with clerical healing) of your HP back makes a big difference. The whack-a-mole aspect gets a bit silly, however. It takes the unreal aspect of D&D healing and cranks it up to 11.
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Post by Fwib »

My most active DM at the moment has had us playing that 1st-level pseudo-4e for the last few weeks.

My opinion so far of it is that it seems to be better at this very low level than 3e, since you don't run out of stuff to do, and you mostly have more things to do than you would have in 3e

On the other hand, the lack of ability to make your own character, or advance, being stuck with prefabs, is annoying, but I can't put that down to 4e.

I also like how characters are not insta-gibbed all the time by creatures allegedly appropriate for them to fight - our group actually managed to kill that level 4 dragon with the 280hp - although since we did not have the rules for the dragon's darkness ability, and one or two other things, it was a little easier than it should have been.

I look forward to maybe not having my hopes dashed in a few weeks :)
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Post by Voss »

The darkness ability is a little odd. I used it once, decided it could be countered by the wizard's light ability, and didn't care. Its a hell of a lot stronger than 3e darkness since it actually blocks line of effect, rather than the stupid as shit 'shadowy illumination'.


I just want rules for a few things on the sheets- the warlock's concealment is sadly undefined. I think it works DDM style (if you hit, roll a d20, if you don't get x+, you miss. I just have no idea what x is). And the breath weapon- blast (like the breath weapon) is undefined in the info I have. I was treating it as a cone, but it could be something else. I think its different from a burst, but there is a bit of guesswork involved.

As far as things to do go, I noticed running out a lot. Or at least, you get to the point where you're just spamming the same at will power over and over again. For example, the warlock's eyebite wins over eldritch blast, both for the invisibility effect and because will saves are often lower than reflex saves, so you hit more often. The fighters choice of powers was really bad. Many times neither at will power is appropriate. When you've pinned a monster up against a wall or are trying to keep one from getting by you to go after the squishy PCs, the last thing you want to do is move him.

One thing I did notice- the brute monsters kind of suck for their level. High hit points, but they don't match the controller/artillery for damage output and their defenses suck ass, comparably. Sometimes thats a good thing, if you want something the pcs can just beat on, but I'd throw an extra into most encounters to make up for their general shittiness. It was one of the reasons the fights with the 6th and 8th level gnolls weren't bad. An 8th level controller probably would have shredded the party. I'll have to find one.

Another random thought- compared to the monsters, the sample PCs have really, really crappy initiatives. The kobold minions are scrapping the bottom of the barrel with +3. Only the ranger with his 18 dex actually beats that. All the other monsters are around 5+. I don't know if there is a way to get init bonuses or not, but generally, the party loses. I don't why they were all designed this way, but it really stands out, especially when the vampire spawn were seriously at +11 as 6th level minions.
Stealth was also a problem. A lot of low level monsters have serious stealth scores, and only 2 party members have decent passive perception scores. And by serious, I mean the level 2 kobold soldiers have +10 to stealth, so odds are, the ranger won't spot them. And I really think that optimizing initiative and perception is going to be a big part of the meta-game. Its too much of a disadvantage to be ambushed all the time, and a huge advantage if you can drop enemies before they act.
Last edited by Voss on Mon Mar 31, 2008 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Crissa »

I have a shelf of books of games that are 'go into dungeons and stab things' or whatnot.

...I have another shelf that's D&D.

-Crissa

(I have two shelves of GURPS and another shelf of other crap including Champions, but who's counting?)
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Post by Bigode »

Crissa wrote:I have a shelf of books of games that are 'go into dungeons and stab things' or whatnot.

...I have another shelf that's D&D.

-Crissa
I have to ask: what's the difference between shelves 1 and 2?
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Post by Crissa »

Like I said, they're different shelves.

-Crissa
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Post by Absentminded_Wizard »

Voss wrote:Another random thought- compared to the monsters, the sample PCs have really, really crappy initiatives. The kobold minions are scrapping the bottom of the barrel with +3. Only the ranger with his 18 dex actually beats that. All the other monsters are around 5+. I don't know if there is a way to get init bonuses or not, but generally, the party loses. I don't why they were all designed this way, but it really stands out, especially when the vampire spawn were seriously at +11 as 6th level minions.
Stealth was also a problem. A lot of low level monsters have serious stealth scores, and only 2 party members have decent passive perception scores. And by serious, I mean the level 2 kobold soldiers have +10 to stealth, so odds are, the ranger won't spot them. And I really think that optimizing initiative and perception is going to be a big part of the meta-game. Its too much of a disadvantage to be ambushed all the time, and a huge advantage if you can drop enemies before they act.
Of course, it's always hard to tell what the actual balance is going to be, since WotC has a history of creating suboptimal sample PCs. There's a good chance that everyone will read the 4e PHB and wonder why they didn't give these sample PCs some of the other available powers too.
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Post by Voss »

I'm wondering that now. The half-elf warlock has ray of frost, a wizard power (taking an at will power from another class is apparently something half-elves get). It isn't useful. The fact that it targets fortitude is nice, but balanced out by the using int, and having attack/damage bonuses that are 2 points lower.

There is other shit too, but some of it is buried under all the mistakes they made while generating this for the preview thing- several powers were wrong, or using old versions, they were supposed to be 28 point buy, but 4 characters are 29 or 30. Etc. It was kind of sad, really.
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Post by Username17 »

Question I had: what if you just made your party out of Rangers and Clerics and ignored all the other classes entirely? It seems like Strikers "kill enemies" and Leaders "Save Friends" and everything anyone else does ever is a total distraction.

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Post by Voss »

It could work, I think, but not with the sample characters. They just aren't optimized enough. Eventually they'd go down too quickly to heal. The sample cleric can use his healing power exactly twice in an encounter, and the 'second wind' ability takes a standard action, so self-healing is a little over-rated. (The WotC people have crowed about it on occassion). Unless you're a dwarf, of course, and then its a minor action, and meaningful. If you're dealing with an open field and can play at range for a while, it would really work. One of the reasons I suspect they imposed the Magical Range Limit on longbows. In a dungeon... its not so good.


I had a similar idea, based on the few snippets of the warlord (and the fact that they are supposed to get some form of healing). A party of just rogues and warlords. Same kind of thing- except the warlord is tossing around extra actions as well, so the rogues would be dropping a ton of damage. Except of course, I forgot that rogues can only sneak attack once per round, because they needed to suck for some reason. Really, you need combat advantage and a crappy weapon (d4 or d6), while the ranger and warlock are starting with d10 base damage and can stay comfortably out of the fight. It seriously averages out to very close, and the ranger can do it from across the room and the warlock always ignores AC.


Not having a defender does make a difference, though again it may be the sample characters. Everyone else has shitty ACs, and even the lowliest monster has +5 to hit. But I could easily see a party of 1 defender, 2 strikers and 2 leaders. The fighter does fairly decent damage, has some collateral damage powers, the 'reliable' tag on his daily means he isn't blowing it if he misses, and is a fairly decent mobile wall. His damage output isn't quite as high as the strikers, but this is a sword and board guy, not a two hander. The ability to move and pin an opponent up against the way and punish them if they try to get away is pretty valuable. His damage is only about 3.5 points lower on average than the ranger, and cleave adds 3 to that (on an adjacent foe to be sure), and the encounter power allows an additional attack (again on a different foe), but he's at least competing.

The paladin needs to be made by somebody competent before I really have a feel for the class. MAD, the marking power being a pre-alpha version (or whatever) and a lot of really odd decisions make the sample one look shitty. The back up healing is pretty nice, but the fact that lay on hands is 3/day rather than 2/encounter sucks ass.

At least its a step up from 3e, since the defenders can actually do things in combat, and someone playing a fighter or paladin doesn't make you want to ask why the players want the party to suck.

The wizard is the problem class (other than the rogue). Particularly with the half-elf ability to take an at-will power. The half-elf warlock could have taking the scorching blast power for the tiny bit of area damage the party actually needs, blows up the minions the first round, and then settles into doing damage to real threats. Another leader (healer) would almost always be a better choice (the cleric can do some serious damage if he feels like it, and buffs the party with his attacks- temporary hit points or bonus to attack rolls are nothing to sneer at). Doing 9 damage (or 14 w/ an encounter power) to a bunch of people all at once isn't actually all that useful. They're still fully functional and can smack you back. And actually, if you grind down a bunch of enemies who can take an immediate action when they hit bloodied, grinding them down to half hit points all at once is actually bad. They could seriously nova and kill someone.

I'd probably rank the classes like this:
1- warlock, cleric
2- ranger, warlord
3- fighter
4-paladin, wizard, rogue

the ranger's encounter and daily powers are a little iffy. I'm not sure you can even use the daily if there is only one opponent, and the encounter power is almost nice, but depends entirely on the opponent actually getting up in your face... and even then, it probably won't save you. The warlord is a bit iffy on the ranking, but only because the exact power text isn't available... but granting extra actions, healing and attack bonuses while he attacks doesn't sound like it will suck.
Fwib
Knight-Baron
Posts: 755
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Fwib »

This is the stuff my DM is using:
http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806
Voss
Prince
Posts: 3912
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 7:54 pm

Post by Voss »

Ah. I looked at the original version of that, but there were a lot of mistakes and mistaken assumptions. I haven't kept track of the updated versions.

The monsters and more pdf is pretty good though. A few typos (like the kobold wyrmpriest with +16 to one of his attacks), but it largely seems to be accurate.
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