Religion?

[Koumei]

I used to be a believer. I seriously did believe. I "knew" God was there as though it was just obvious. And life outright sucked. It was kind of like being on drugs without the good effects. If there was a God who cared about me, I wouldn't have been in a situation where someone prevented me from gassing myself earlier in the year, and I wouldn't be on barely-adequately-effective antidepressants now.

Just so you know that I'm not a clueless unbeliever, but a different life experience does completely change things and sometimes make beliefs and worldviews impossible.

[CalibronXXX]

I don't mean to be cruel, but there are people who have had it a lot worse than you that have never flinched in their faith. Events don't make holding certain world views impossible, they are just trials that you can overcome or be crushed under. Abandoning the Lord, just like coming to him, is always a choice; it cannot be forced on you.

[Crissa]

That fact that the world is here, and there is no god, merely fantasies and delusions. Maybe they comfort some, but they should have no part in society, bringing their arbitrary beliefs with them as they bend the world around them to suit their delusional needs instead of the greater good of people at large.

-Crissa

[Koumei]

There seriously isn't a choice. What you believe isn't a matter of choice, it's how you feel. And just as I can't decide to become happy, I can't decide to believe in God, Father Christmas or the Immortal God-Emperor of Humanity.

I did just wake up one day, and with a feeling of dread, realised that I didn't believe. That there is no god. It wasn't a decision. It was just waking up to a fact.

And for those who have suffered worse, they're welcome to have taken their own lives as well. Or for that matter, maybe they didn't suffer as much. I don't know, perhaps people who deal with things more easily just don't care as much. Similar to how someone without the ability to feel pain handles a broken leg very easily, and doesn't suffer much from it.

There's no way of knowing. But that they retained their faith isn't a decision they made. They just still felt that there was a god. And they're welcome to, seeing as they didn't have a choice.

But the one thing I won't forgive my parents for is ruining my life by getting me to believe in a magical man who can fix problems, when they should have taught me that you won't be happy unless you go out there, kick down anyone in the way, and grab happiness* for yourself. Because it's way too late now.

But anyway. You don't choose to believe in something, you either do or you don't. You can choose to *pretend* to believe, to humour someone when they tell you something, but that won't get you into heaven any more than wearing a WWJD armband while robbing a liquor store.**

I need more footnotes in the things I say.

*I said happiness, not "success" or "money" or whatever. That rarely involves actually having to do what I consider morally wrong.

**No, I'm not saying you're one of those hypocrites either. From what you've said, I'm sure you happen to believe, and do leave a good, moral lifestyle.

[Draco_Argentum]

1195179855[/unixtime]]I don't mean to be cruel, but there are people who have had it a lot worse than you that have never flinched in their faith.

I don't mean to be cruel, but you worship a guy who created some people's brains in a way that causes them to believe life sucks no matter how great their life is. Really, God created everything, therefore it is his fault that depression exists. He didn't have to put that chemical imbalance in there. Guess he just felt mean that day.

[Username17]

I'm an atheist. I don't follow a religion, I don't believe in any gods. But the religion that I don't follow is Judaism. And Judaism recognizes the existence of many gods. Some of the greatest miracles perpetrated by the Jewish god of war is his personal defeat of other gods in combat.

And frankly, it's more than a bit insulting to my cultural heritage to say that you have only two choices: that of subjigating yourself before a singular omnipotent creator god and failing to do so. That's absurd. There are lots of gods that you can bend knee to. And turning your back on all the gods is quite a convoluted task which requires a denial of Chicomec and Tlaloc even as it requires us to conclude that Thor and Hades are not worthy of our worship.

There aren't any gods. But the gods that don't exist for me are YHWH, Baal, Osiris, Dagon, Astoreth, and Set. Jesus isn't even one of the options, nor is Vishnu.

-Username17

[tzor]

1195180535[/unixtime]]That fact that the world is here, and there is no god, merely fantasies and delusions.

Can you be sure? It might just be possible that there is a god and the word really isn't here.

1195182045[/unixtime]]I did just wake up one day, and with a feeling of dread, realised that I didn't believe. That there is no god. It wasn't a decision. It was just waking up to a fact.

A "decision" doesn't have to be a deliberate deliberation. Accepting a realization is in fact a decision in and of itself.

Ironically the road to faith has a stepping stone marked on it "unbelief." If you read some of the lives of the people who are known as "mystics" many will have a period of thier lives where they seemed burried by feelings of dread and unbelief.

I will quibble with the notion of a "fact." If you will excuse me a moment I would like to invoke the definition of "fact."

3 a : something that has actual existence : EVENT b : an occurrence, quality, or relation the reality of which is manifest in experience or may be inferred with certainty; specifically : an actual happening in time or space <fact in its primary meaning, as an object of direct experience, is distinguished from truth> <stubborn facts> <given facts> c : a verified statement or proposition; also : something that makes a statement or a proposition true or false

Facts are real things that we can experience or infer with certainty. There are many things we cannot yet eperience or infer with certanty. Thus they are not facts, but neither are their negations facts.

The physics side of me is constantly reminded of the scientific heresy of the common view of the late 19th century that not only was the universe knowable, it was already known and the truth of that knowledge was a fact. Relativity and quantum mechanics brought that heresy to a proper end but they in turn were made even more strnanger by other theories which became harder and harder to prove; string theory and the multiple intersecting universes theories are two good examples of how it might be possible that the universe may remain unknowable because the mysteries of the universe may in fact be transinfinite.

(Note that the notion of things beying infinity - commonly defined as the set of whole counting numbers - already exists in math. It is a scientifically proven theory that you cannot map the set of whole numbers (rational and irrational numbers) to the set of whole counting numbers. The set of whole counting numbers (and also the set of rational numbers) is commonly referred to as Alpeh Null, and the set of real numbers is commonly referred to as Aleph One.)

[Koumei]

Good point, tzor. Fact was the wrong word. It just seemed to be a given.

And the problem with deciding something without choice is... well, it doesn't really seem to be a decision. Similar to how I didn't choose to be a lesbian, and I didn't choose to not like the taste of chicken. That's just how it is. At least the second is most likely genetic, and no-one really has a clue about the first.

Anyway, I'm just a little surprised that I yet again say something that I later feel a little bad about, thinking "That might be a bit harsh/inflammatory, and without proper logical thought." and still get defended to a degree. This site makes me think I could start an argument anywhere and get defended.

Anyway, I did try reading up on other religions and following those. I gave thought to the Norse one, but the problem there was that I didn't believe in anything, so it didn't matter how many gods there weren't and what they didn't do or look like. So I next tried Zen Buddhism, and found that I disagreed with enough of its core concepts (such as the bit where you should keep away from your family so as to not accidentally ruin their enlightenment) that it probably wouldn't work.

Though I'm pretty sure I'm not the one Frank was talking to there, but just saying anyway, that I don't think I can believe in any god, not even the "heretical heathen ones".

[CalibronXXX]

I'm not really sure who Frank was talking to, or even if he was just saying his peace. His comment seemed only tangenitally related to the current conversation.

[Jacob_Orlove]

1195228211[/unixtime]]I'm not really sure who Frank was talking to, or even if he was just saying his peace. His comment seemed only tangenitally related to the current conversation.

Yeah, Frank is all about the genitals.

[tzor]

1195232759[/unixtime]]Yeah, Frank is all about the genitals.

I thought that was the Count ...

[Crissa]

That's a good definition, tzor.

I don't 'know' there is no god, but I do 'know' there is no processes in our world by which it would exist.

In a way, I do believe that there are things we haven't seen, interactions and spirits and animisms... But those are probably all in my head, and I'm fine with that. It means I talk to inanimate objects, but I fully expect them to not reply.

I have no need for a God when I can see the beauty in the movements of the earth, moon, and stars. The beautiful arcs inscribed upon the sky of the dance which is larger than us.

Why people need sky fairies to help them when there are other people right here, bewilders me. And it aggravates me to no end when they demand their imaginary friend be given a seat at society's table.

-Crissa

[Bigode]

Calibron: then we're basically on the same camp on abortion. There's 2 contentions, though: I'd certainly favor the mother, should there be any threat to her; and, worse, that we've to contend with much more serious crime to worry about that. In fact, think about a poor mother: I wouldn't mourn the dead child much, given the astounding chance of them becoming a criminal, or just living a meaningless life only adequate for a further population increase. But, on the comparison to drugs, you forget the possible, really nasty, effect of having a flat wrong worldview, to be then used to pattern all of one's life after. And Frank's talking to you: you made the basic Abrahamic mistake of wording the choice as "with God or without God", where "God" stands for a specific description.

Crissa: are you telling me you know there's no divinity? AFAIK, you couldn't; for all I know, Calibron could be right. Despite having just made the Agnostic point here, I'm in fact an Atheist just because following the non-proven views of other people doesn't sit right with me, though (the fact that I don't know of a single deity that I could vaguely consider "moral" does help).

Koumei: would you then say nothing at all is a choice? Not that I disagree.

Frank: I sorta have to ask why'd you care about the cultural legacy you don't at all follow. And please take the genital issues to another thread.

[Crissa]

I just said I don't know there's no God.

I did say I do know there's no way in our known universe in which anything like is depicted as God could exist.

There's a big difference.

-Crissa

[Bigode]

Sorry if I missed some nuance, but: "That fact that the world is here, and there is no god, merely fantasies and delusions." Anyway, I do agree with you on the impossibility of the existance of the Abrahamic god (or similar) - I just do challenge anybody who seems to be claiming certainity about it. More specifically, how'd you know about the absence of such process? If the very definition ascribes omnipotence, whatever could be true according to it.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I believe I should be worshiped as a divinity. Unfortunately, no one else does.

[Crissa]

Why would you requote the atheist's creed instead of actually facing any of the supporting statements?

-Crissa

[Bigode]

Argh. Look, I'm not terribly sure who's at fault for that (I'm willing to bet on my mangled sleep cycle, though), but I'm not sure whether you mean I should confront the atheist POV (which seems weird, since I've claimed to share it), or try to reply to what you said earlier. I'll try the latter then, pardon me if that ends wasted: I have an "I know there's no way in the known universe for God to exist" - that'd be the same as "I know there's no God", except for the "in the known universe" bit. And so, what's the importance of just this specification?

[Koumei]

1195261262[/unixtime]]
Koumei: would you then say nothing at all is a choice? Not that I disagree.

Well, I don't believe in any deity, nor a divine plan. So IF the Abrahamic god as portrayed in the Bible of your choice existed and his divine plan was true, then exactly. There would be no such thing as choice, at all. Kids who do something wrong and say the devil made them do it? They're wrong. God did. I now picture Tzeench with his hands folded, saying "All goes according to plan..."

As it is, there is choice... I suppose. It's tricky. To some degree, a lot of it (emotions) happen whether you want them to or not. Now take these emotions and the chemicals in your brain, genetics... I think people do have choice, but it is strongly influenced by many factors. But I want to believe people can make choices. Because that means we can all actually try to make better ones.

Frank: And please take the genital issues to another thread.

Do you really want a thread about Frank's genitals?

[Bigode]

If one believes in those books, then they believe in the (for me at least) incomprehensible definition of free will. But yes, it's painful to think about the possibility of having no choice. And I simply want Frank's anatomy outta here; where it goes isn't my problem.

[cthulhu]

If you don't belive in god doesn't it invetiably follow that you don't have free will as you have no ability to exert any control over the random movements of atoms that drive the nerve impulses off your brain? Or is there some theory behind that I'm missing.

Edit: Incidently, I don't belive and god and cannot find any reason to belive I have free will. (This does not actually mean the university is determinite either, or could be random.)

[Bigode]

If you're missing anything, we're two.

[ckafrica]

I was going to found the Apathian religion. It celebrates and promotes apathy and procrastination. Unfortunately I didn't care quite enough and never did quite get around to it...

[Captain_Bleach]

1195295878[/unixtime]]

Do you really want a thread about Frank's genitals?

Yes!! For the love of [Insert deity here], please!!

[CalibronXXX]

:bolt: