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Propaganda in the media
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Catharz
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:05 pm    Post subject: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So, I was looking at the news today and found this:
[counturl=107]Ahmadinejad questions 9/11, Holocaust[/counturl].

What the fuck is wrong with these people? Iran treats women better than Saudi Arabia, is less likely to use nuclear weapons (if it ever gets them) than Israel, and probably treats Jews better than most other Arabic nations.

Ahmadinejad has no power over the military. Unlike Bush, he couldn't illegally force the invasion a country even if he wanted to. I've watched him speak on television a number of times, and he's always seemed to be a reasonable person, especially given his job.

So why invite him to give a talk and then treat him like shit? That gives him the moral high ground, because you know he wouldn't act in the same fashion. Are we really so intent on invading the middle east that we have to create an "evil dictator"? And why the fuck is the British media playing along?


Oh, and if you want unbiased coverage of the event, here's a link.


[Edit] For those too lazy to look it up, Iran has issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons, about 30,000 Jews live there and supposedly can't be enticed to Israel.

Ahmadinejad said, regarding the Holocaust, "I'm not saying that it didn't happen at all," he said. "I said, granted this happened, what does it have to do with the Palestinian people?"

Regarding 9/11: "If the root causes of 9/11 are examined properly - why it happened, what caused it, what were the conditions that led to it, who truly was involved, who was really involved - and put it all together to understand how to prevent the crisis in Iraq, fix the problem in Afghanistan and Iraq combined."

'Asked why he had asked to visit the World Trade Center site - a request denied by New York authorities - Ahmadinejad said he wanted to express sympathy for the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks.'

[/Edit]
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Geneva conventions should be suspended for these zealots (and by zealots I mean the crazies crossing the Iran/Iraq border to wage unending war on not only innocent civilians, but our own troops).
Seems they're not paying attention to The Rules so why should most militant civilizations?
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2007 10:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

article wrote:
He provoked derisive laughter by responding to a question about Iran's execution of homosexuals by saying: "In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country ... I don't know who's told you that we have this."


LOLZ fuckin third world country. They have fallen so far in the last few hundred years.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:06 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Why should we suspend the rules for a few nitwits? It makes us the criminal, and means no one will believe that they were actually guilty. WTF, sigma?

-Crissa
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The Lawful Good in me is telling me to agree with Crissa here. (I've taken several alignment tests, they always put me at Lawful Good or Neutral Good, so I'm going with it.)

It is imperative that we follow the rules of conflict, such as they are. Even if our counterparts in the conflict do not.


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Captain_Bleach
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:
The Lawful Good in me is telling me to agree with Crissa here. (I've taken several alignment tests, they always put me at Lawful Good or Neutral Good, so I'm going with it.)

It is imperative that we follow the rules of conflict, such as they are. Even if our counterparts in the conflict do not.



I stopped caring for politicians in general. Regardless of their motivations, they always gut at each others throats in order to look like the moral high ground.
However, when you stoop to your enemies' level, you become what you hate, and what is worse than to become a replica of the people that you reviled?
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 1:58 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
Why should we suspend the rules for a few nitwits? It makes us the criminal, and means no one will believe that they were actually guilty. WTF, sigma?

-Crissa


We're doing it right now. Those people are called Blackwater, and they do things that the US military wants to do but can't due to those policies.

I figure, that's halfassed and sneaky of our own military, sending in corporate mercs. Why not go all the way?
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:12 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
Crissa wrote:
Why should we suspend the rules for a few nitwits? It makes us the criminal, and means no one will believe that they were actually guilty. WTF, sigma?

-Crissa


We're doing it right now. Those people are called Blackwater, and they do things that the US military wants to do but can't due to those policies.

I figure, that's halfassed and sneaky of our own military, sending in corporate mercs. Why not go all the way?


It is more compliant with my sense of morals and ethis to demand that the US government not use blackwater anymore.

Sure, shit in one hand and wish in the other, but I wouldn't feel right if I didn't oppose it.

On a side note, Blackwater is a scary organization. And their leader is a member of a radical christian organization.
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 2:23 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What's even scarier is that I'm led to believe the US government has been using Blackwater in other wars within living memory, and similar 'beyond-the-law' mercs for... jeez.. generations. Maybe since the beginning of this country. Or earlier.

Would the US exist as we know it without mercenaries operating, under pay, outside of those same standards that America preaches?
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cthulhu
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I personally think Ahmadinejad is a loon/puppet for the religious leadership of Iran. It behooves a world leader to .. be diplomatic. And he's not in the public eye.

I'm not entirely sure that the ventures off the deep end (which this wasn't one of I agree) are not just for internal consumption though.

However I don't think the situation for jews inside Iran is as rosey as you make out either - simply the fact that it's not clear if an entire family of jews can get exit visas at once (reports say they cannot) pretty much tells you why the financial incentive was rejected.

Contact with Isreal is also a crime for which people have been arrested.

Curious place all in all.
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 4:58 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A conversation with an Iranian immigrant girl back in a high school chem class went like this:

me: "So I'm curious, what language do Iranians speak?"
girl: "Oh we speak our own language."
"What is it called? Farsi?"
"WE DON'T SPEAK FARSI. Iraqis do."

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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 9:15 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
went like this

Dude, thats a lot like saying to some Chinese guy, "Hey, you guys and Japan, two peas in a pod right?"

These countries were committing attrocities against each other within living memory, and Iraq was committing war crimes (with direct USA collusion from the very same men currently in power) to Iran far more recently than Japan was doing things to China.

Learn.

Your.

History.

At least the recent stuff.
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Cielingcat
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2007 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I thought Iraqis spoke Arabic, seeing as they're Arabs and Iranians are Persian.

But yeah, Iraq used biological and chemical weapons on Iranians using weapons supplied by the US.

And Sigma, suspending the Geneva conventions for anyone is a dangerous precedent that you can't do. It's even worse when you get laws passed that let you declare anyone you feel like an "enemy combatant" who doesn't get any rights.

Note that this includes you, me, and anyone else who the government feels like not giving a trial to. They can literally do this and we're not even allowed to know whether they are or not.
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The thing I find scary is how people are coming out and condemning Iran for stuff that they are well within their rights to do and might not be doing, rather than for the actual fucked up shit they are pulling off recently.

Iran is a country. They can arm themselves if they think that foreign powers are contemplating invading them. And since they'd have to be high to think otherwise, arming themselves is a perfectly natural idea. On the other hand, since Ahmadinejad executions have increased alarmingly.

But what do we hear about? Oh noes! Iran captured some fucking sailors who had boarded an Iranian ship in Iranian waters and then didn't execute them as pirates. Are you fvcking kidding me?

Tactically, I just don't understand.

-Frank
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 30, 2007 12:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

You know the reason why Frank, if they attacked Iran for its REAL problems, being a mostly westernized country dominated by blood thirsty authoritarian religious nuts, then they might alienate the blood thirsty authoritarian religious nuts "they" value as audiences/voters back home.

What I am surprised at is how no one ever considers what effects all the endless war talk plus "should we bomb/nuke/invade Iran" talk from the USA side might effect the situation.

I mean how the hell can anyone be surprised if Iran is somewhat uncooperative and surly. I'm surprised they are being as diplomatic as they are.

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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:26 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I saw some History Channel productions by Ken Burns on WW2 recently.
Apparently, American-led wars have been rife with tactical blunders for.. well... since America has existed. Even to this day.

As a Starcraft fan and strategy gamer, I can sit there and point out every single event that went wrong and predict when the assaults would fail. And I'm not even 'gosu' IMO.
Why, then, if some random guy like me would be better in strategy than a high ranking official from Texas or Alabama, has the American military ceased to rely on people good at what they do, and instead make war/military a big macho popularity contest for good ol' boys?

I'll bet most generals never read Sun Tzu's principles, and those that do read books don't get promotions (missed out on the drinking contests, the vaguely homosexual man-rights-of-passage, the verbal bragging contests, all that good military shit).
Still, I have hope for our military.

If an autistic geek like Bill Gates can climb to a position where he's giving advice to Congress and directing where US education is going, there's hope.
Maybe in our own lifetimes, actual strategists, maybe those that spent half their lifespan playing video games like one of my neighbors (now a lieutenant in the air force) there's hope that intelligent, cautious military authority can not only wage war successfully with minimum casualties but prevent the need for confrontation entirely.


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Cielingcat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:16 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Bill Gates didn't get there by being an autistic geek, he got there by being a businessman-which means that in the government's opinion, every shit he takes is worth a thousand of your lives.
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cthulhu
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:14 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The reason for the tactical blunders is conscript armies don't have experince and loose hardcore - especially tactically.

This is why you have a professional army then spend zillions of dollars so they can train them up. And if you compare front line casulties, or even just kill rates in say, air to air combat kill rates in vietnam after the 'top gun' school, they've improved markedly.

Edit: If you don't think that the modern armed forces in 'first world' countries are not close to about as good as they can be right now, you're just ignoring all the evidence.
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Cielingcat
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:41 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well, the American forces are pretty worn down, but that's because they're mired in Iraq and don't have any time to rest.
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tzor
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:
The thing I find scary is how people are coming out and condemning Iran for stuff that they are well within their rights to do and might not be doing, rather than for the actual fucked up shit they are pulling off recently.


Well there is a lot to not understand. World leaders are not always so logical and they are not always so obvious.

Consider France. Their declining native population is being replaced by people from the Middle East. The French dream of secularism (which came from their "revolution" where they enthroned Lady Reason as a goddess) is being threatened by a population that won't surrender their faith. They see an Iran that still does not recognize Israel, openly questions the Hollocaust, and is promoting the spread of their faith to every world government.

Consider Great Britian. Iran apparently has this idea that whenever it feels pressure it goes out and punches the nearest British sailor in the eye. Normally that wouldn't be annoying but they have that song about how their naval sailors will never be slaves, comming as it were from when the Spanish used to do it regularly. It's really hard to keep that stiff upper lip all the time you know.

Consider the United States. On second though let's not consider them, I've given up on trying to figure out Bush years ago. I'm surprised he can tell the difference between Iran and Iraq.

--

I haven't seen Ken Burns series, but I've gotten a lot of information from my father who fought in the war. There were clearly some American Generals who were close to incompitent. Then again in the case of direct American involvement in the war the war didn't really last long enough to weed out the good from the bad.

--

Bill Gates in many ways was the BORG. He was in the right place at the right time to score with someone else's code. He acquired more other people's code and continued to score. Perhaps BORG is too strong a word, Gates is the MCP.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But France...

...Oh, nevermind...

-Crissa

[TGFBS] Unnecessary insults deleted.[/TGFBS]
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Ah good point tzor.


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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What, I'm confused...

...Mentioning that there are facts which may differ from a screed is insulting? WTF?

It is true that the unrest in France is not due to religion. It's due to the fact that these are children of guest workers or guest workers themselves who have lesser rights. The fact that they happen to want to continue their own culture and misogyny without interruption is merely the icing on the cake. This is what happens when you don't allow immigration.

-Crissa

PS: Oh, yeah, I wanted to share http://www.sadlyno.com/archives/7317.html because I figured it fit better than here than in the teachers' thread.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Oh come on, Crissa's post wasn't insulting in the slightest.

But really. "Oooh country X has low birth rate and is being invaded by foreign people!"

That's the same paranoid and totally incorrect claim made by scary white nationalist movements world wide since the dawn of time.

Its not anything new and its been wrong every single time its been used in the past 100+ years of the recorded history of migration in western countries.

Claiming Europe is drowning in a flood of frightening Muslim brown people is laughable.

It also smacks of obvious overtones of well... you know...
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Propaganda in the media Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Antiarabism.
Don't do it or they will declare jihad and wave scimitars at you, rampaging hordes of feisty wild-eyed hairy young men through the dirty streets, while black huddled masses of repressed women in burkas cower out of camera range for fear of losing social grace.

Did you know uncivilized Arab nations kill their own children with falling bullets from revelries?
You'd think common sense prevails, that shooting guns into the sky would have repercussions.

On the other hand, I'm also against Evangelical Christian missionaries pacing my neighborhood every summer, and kosher slaughter (the animals are suffering as they bleed to death slowly; death, if merciful, should be fast, not abide by ancient obsolete food rites)
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