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Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNGEON
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erik
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNGEON Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/news/20070419a [ok]

I'm kind of saddened by this, but then again, I haven't bothered with their content since long, long ago.
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fbmf
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2007 11:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dragon can suck my balls, but my Dad got me a subscription to Dungeon for Christmas. As I've said a time or two, modules are all that I've bought from WotC in over a year. i was actually enjoying my Dungeon subscription.

Game On,
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:26 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dungeon mag hasn't made a profit in at least ten years, though.

But the Dragon and Dungeon dying basically flags the end of the pen and paper era; gone are the days of face to face interaction and table top roleplay. Of clubs and games and stores.

Too many people have bought into Wal-Mart's production values. This is probably just another mark in the dying market in the US for hobby sales, as well as the greater death of our social culture.

On the other hand, the virtualization of our world can't come any faster for me. If you want to help raise a vitual table or gathering place, in Second Life I have a sim called Pony Island that can be used.

-Crissa
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:27 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But seriously, what the hell is Paizo thinking? They lose the DUNGEON license, and then their fallback position is to make a new magazine that is apparently hard bound that clocks in at 20 bucks an issue.

That's not good sense. I like reading adventures that other people put together well enough, but not $19.99 well. I think that's just a foolish idea. seven dollars was the kind of money you'd blow on a matinee, I could see spending it on a Dungeon issue just for laughs. But twenty dollars is a whole different conceptual head space. I'd only throw that down if I was legitimately positive that I would actually run the packaged adventure for a group of friends. And I just can't guaranty that sight unseen. I don't think anyone can.

Pathfinder seems doomed to fail. I've been wrong before, but honestly I just don't see how this could succeed.

-Frank
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MrWaeseL
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 1:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Dungeon is 8 euros over here, so that would make the new magazine...Freaked Out
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Leress
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 20, 2007 10:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

A response from WOTC
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/20070420a

The board is on fire
http://boards1.wizards.com/forumdisplay.php?f=386
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 12:37 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


Monte Cook wrote:
I'd be willing to bet that there is indeed something keeping them from publishing a new magazine. The absolute smartest thing they could do is to say Dragon and Dungeon are ending, but Wyvern and Labyrinth are starting up the very next month, and even picking up with the same issue numbers. Magazine distributors have monthly "slots" to fill. That's why it's so hard to start a new magazine. It almost has to supplant another one to get a new slot, or you have to go through the major hassle of convincing them to create a new slot. Paizo could just tell its distributors "hey, we're stopping these mags, but here's two others to fill those slots." They could tell their subscribers that Wyvern and Labyrinth subscriptions will just take up where Dragon and Dungeon left off. Sales would still likely decline, but they wouldn't be paying WotC any money, so maybe it would work out OK.

The folks at Paizo aren't dumb. They'd be doing that if they could. So there's really only one explanation. WotC's forcing them to some kind of agreement where they can't put out magazines (maybe for some limited period of time--a sort of non-compete clause lasting a year or two).

Read Paizo's press release for their new subscription product Pathfinder. They're very careful about calling this magazine a "product." It's the only way to get around what must be some kind of restriction.

This also provides us the answer for why WotC would do this. If the magazines were doing poorly, WotC wouldn't care if Paizo put out others. No, it's just the opposite. They're doing well, and likely WotC products--probably specifically adventures--aren't doing as well as WotC wants. There's been some loud voices at WotC crying that Dragon and Dungeon (particularly Dungeon) are too good a value. They're too good for the customer, and smart customers buy them rather than regular products. This was true when WotC put out the magazines, and it's been true under the Paizo banner as well. I'm guessing declining sales gave these voices the evidence they needed to axe the magazines.




I should point out that I don't have any insider knowledge about the cancelation of the magazines, other than the bit about the voices inside WotC that used to call for their cancellation.

As I said in another thread, I am really saddened by this. Some of my fondest "back in the day" memories are sitting around my friend's room in Junior High reading Dragon (he was the only one who's mom would let him have a subscription). No, not reading Dragon--studying it. Devouring it. Pouring over the cover, practically memorizing the articles, and pondering the ads, dreaming about what those products would be like. (Here's something that no one seems to have yet mentioned--I purchased a lot of products over the years based on the ads in Dragon. There will literally be no forum for those kinds of ads anymore.)

I should point out that I have nothing but respect for the guys who have been working on the magazines the last few years. In particular, I think a lot of praise needs to go in the direction of Erik Mona, who really turned those magazines into worthy and worthwhile things--but then again, maybe that was the problem.

I also think that this is likely a huge mistep on WotC's part. No matter what the reason. With 4th edition coming, Dragon is worth hanging onto just for the marketing of that release alone. When we prepared to launch 3E, Dragon was great for getting the word out, releasing previews, and getting people excited. When the game actually came out, both magazines were invaluable for supporting the game. It seems foolish to say it today, but back then I was worried that no one was going to ever create prestige classes other than those in the DMG, and the idea would die on the vine. Dragon was a great forum for me to create additional prestige classes as well as an article or two for instructing people on how to create their own. That's just one example.


Probably the most insightfl thing I've seen on the subject so far.

-Frank
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nova88
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List


This has got to be the stupidest D&D-related fiasco since Scott Magner fired Troy Daniels,which with cert conversion started the downward spiral that ultimately killed Living City. Incredibly bad information mangement, bad damage control, bad spin, bad everything. PR heads should not only roll but shoot into orbit over this. Online magazines are not a bad idea- Pyramid is ok-but if that is the plan say so,don't be coy about it.

Sheesh.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 21, 2007 7:48 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Actually, Paizo's magazines can't be picked up by the big book distributers for some reason, but hardbound books can get into the malls and Borders of the world...

-Crissa
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Zherog
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
Dungeon mag hasn't made a profit in at least ten years, though.



Source?
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 7:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Industry rumour?

Anyhow, has everyone seen (and signed, I suppose) the petition to continue the Dungeon and Dragon magazines?
http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html

-Crissa
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MrWaeseL
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 23, 2007 10:42 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think the petition will be more like the Bioshock one in size before whoever has power over this will take notice.
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Leress
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:13 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
Industry rumour?

Anyhow, has everyone seen (and signed, I suppose) the petition to continue the Dungeon and Dragon magazines?
http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html

-Crissa


No because online petitions don't work
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 12:27 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leress wrote:
Crissa wrote:
Industry rumour?

Anyhow, has everyone seen (and signed, I suppose) the petition to continue the Dungeon and Dragon magazines?
http://www.petitiononline.com/sdadm582/petition.html

-Crissa


No because online petitions don't work


But they take even less effort to sign than real petitions. Tongue

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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 2:59 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Leress wrote:
No because online petitions don't work

They work to get the FCC to fine non right wing talk show hosts who have guests who say something naughty on the air.

What would work, that you can do? Create a paypal account and have people put in a few dollars to bribe Hasbro to keep it running?

-Crissa
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Digestor
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That sucks, I enjoyed reading Dragon (albeit never using it, tee hee)

surprisingly fantastic art in it too, marvelous stuff really
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 3:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:

What would work, that you can do? Create a paypal account and have people put in a few dollars to bribe Hasbro to keep it running?


Prove to them that they'd make more money with Dragon and Dungeon intact.

They will most liekly ignore the petition because it doesn't say "You'll make more money with the contract intact". You need hard evidence, not some waste of time online petition.

However, they are convinced that they can make more money by revoking the contracts, so you have a hard road ahead of you.

Myself, I honestly don't care enough about magazines I don't read to actually want to do anything, but what anyone else does isn't a concern to me.
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RandomCasualty
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

Probably the most insightfl thing I've seen on the subject so far.


I don't know. It sounds more like conspiracy theorizing to me. For all my experiences with dragon or dungeon, I've never seen any of them used in any gaming group I've been in.

I mean sure, some of my friends have bought an issue from time to time, but it's not like they even found anything remotely decent in there. Most of the dragon stuff tends to suck unimaginably, and the general consensus is that you're better off buying complete warrior or spell compendium than 3-4 issues of dragon.

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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 24, 2007 9:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's possible, if fourth is indeed coming out, that they want to bring the magazines back 'in-house' to turn them into advertising vehicles.

-Crissa
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:44 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Geez, what do they want? Dragon magazine was already the "WotC is so great we fellate them every issue" magazine.

Maybe they want to turn every single page into an ad, as opposed to the pages that had gaming content in them?
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Cielingcat
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 12:49 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

So that would be, what, an average of one extra ad per issue?
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:28 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:
Maybe they want to turn every single page into an ad, as opposed to the pages that had gaming content in them?

Yes. Fewer pages, too.

Content is for wusses.

-Crissa
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MrWaeseL
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:
Maybe they want to turn every single page into an ad, as opposed to the pages that had gaming content in them?


At least that way the content will finally be balanced Wink
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tzor
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2007 3:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The petition will not work. Logic will not work.

It will not work because wisdom is their dump stat! I've seen too many heads of corporations with the "damn the torpedoes; full speed ahead" approach to management. The result is painfully obvious, the company hits a torpedo and sinks. End of story. The idiot at the helm gets a golden parachute as a reward for his brilliant maneuver of gross stupidity and everyone curses him ever after. Such is life.

It is even more ironic because there is no equivalent competition. No other gaming system has successfully use the promotion by magazine model that Dungeon and Dragon provided. D&D will certanly be significantly impacted by their loss but still remain slightly above the competition. You might say this is the "curse" of the OGL license ... that there is no significantly different system which could produce a player/game master series of magazine promotion tools to keep thie image in front of potential new users because it's easier to develop additions to the existing d20 system than promote your own. All the major rule variants were created in the pre OGL days of 2nd edition AD&D or eariler.

In ten years this will all change.
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NineInchNall
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PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 6:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Paizo Publishing to Cease Publication of DRAGON and DUNG Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:
Geez, what do they want? Dragon magazine was already the "WotC is so great we fellate them every issue" magazine.

Maybe they want to turn every single page into an ad, as opposed to the pages that had gaming content in them?


Wait. Dragon has content? Since when? I've had a subscription since '05 and seen about three things that could seriously be considered content. Why in the name of all that's holy would I give a shit about the "ecology of the steam mephit"?

Dungeon, on the other hand, is nothing but content. I'll be buying the last few issues of the magazine (my script runs out with two issues left in the Savage Tide path).
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