4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dventu

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Captain_Bleach
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4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dventu

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Obligatory Link Time!

Discuss! Observe! Complain! Whatever!
Rob_Knotts
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by Rob_Knotts »

Obigatory complaint: Four more hours to wait!

The bits & pieces & implications I've heard about it so far (streamlined classes, boost for melee combat, possible changes to spellcasting) I find encouraging.

In fact the only thing I find discouraging about 4e is going through a replay of the 2e fan outcry over the release of 3e, or even the complaints that came with 3.5. Lots knee-jerk condemnations, lots of indignant snubs by self-proclaimed experts in the older edition, lots of juvenile indictments of WotC as the big evil corporation, lots and lots of practical examples of the Oberoni Principle. It's boring, frustrating, and will end up wasting huge amounts of banwidth for months and even years at a time.
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by Tokorona »

What I'd like from it isn't going tohappen, I'm afraid, but I'll be able to verify that in Decemember. A ECL/LA/CR system that allows for customized races that don't suck.
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virgil
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by virgil »

I'm less than pleased at the realization of how far they've taken the idea of having people pay to playtest their ideas for them (especially when they're duplititous about it at the time), as this sets a precedence I don't like for any further purchases from WotC as a company.
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Captain_Bleach
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by Captain_Bleach »

Tokorona at [unixtime wrote:1187289174[/unixtime]]What I'd like from it isn't going tohappen, I'm afraid, but I'll be able to verify that in Decemember. A ECL/LA/CR system that allows for customized races that don't suck.


But several WotC employees believe that making monster classes suck makes it discouraging to play one, thus explaining why the PHB races are "common."
But we play fantasy to be non-humans! Horror or modern, I could understand, but high magic/fantasy?!
Oh well, a gamer can dream...:roundnround:
bitnine
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by bitnine »

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1187308892[/unixtime]]But several WotC employees believe that making monster classes suck makes it discouraging to play one, thus explaining why the PHB races are "common."
Heh, yeah, that may have been something I've remarked upon from time to time.
bitnine wrote:Me, I'm a passive aggressive DM. I want to control the sort of things that my players can play, but I don't really have the stones to set boundaries for my campaign and campaign world. So I let them play whatever they want and work with the passive aggressive principle of "banning by suckage." That is, I make sure every option that I don't personally approve up will end up being suboptimal, frustrating, and horrible for the player trying to pursue it. If nothing else, I just make sure that events transpire and conspire to ensure the death or great misfortune of that character, from townsfolk reactions to a number of other sly pieces.

Although, a few games ago I did sort of lose it and said what was on my mind. A player had been getting on my case about how frustrated they were with how the game was treating their ogre character. I think I said something like, "Shut your mouth. How dare you complain after trying to play a monster! Monsters are supposed to be rare and special, not something you see on every street corner, and definitely not something that you get to play. Well, you know what? Yeah, you have the option of playing an ogre. And you also get to suck and die. And that is how the game is supposed to work. Soon enough you'll learn your place, stop trying to play silly things like ogres and monsters will get to remain special. Now sit down. I've still got to roll the attack rolls for these 70 angry commoners."

Therefore, I <3 the LA system.
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erik
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by erik »

I've had a severe loathing for 3.5 since its inception that still smoulders like a chunk of pure evil. I own a couple 3.5 books (PHB,SpellComp) out of necessity for LG gaming, but their presence in my otherwise austere life rankles me.

That said, if this is genuinely a separate edition (which 3.5 wasn't), I may become a supporter, especially since I'll probably still be playing LG as my mainstay (and I'm sure they'll convert over at some point in the next couple years). I'd rather play something in a SAME system but since I don't really have that option 4e is my only real avenue at the moment.

I am excited that they got rid of AoOs (allegedly), since that's a Big step towards streamlining combat. I'm a bit worried about the obvious conclusions one can draw from the fact that 4e is going to be based off of their "play testing" done via new mechanics in their books of the last 12 months. This is mostly because the changes I would like to see made have not been present in any of these books.

Overhaul on skills (put them on rails and do not have them affect combat).
Overhaul on casting (make them trees with unlimited slots).
Overhaul on feats (make them interesting, and either equivalent in power or entirely fluff-which would mean equivalently useless in combat).
Overhaul on monsters (make them via the same mechanics as players so that they are interchangable).
And get rid of hit points.

Granted many of these couldn't be fit in very well without an entirely new system, except the casting, which almost resembles a warlock. But that's the huge drawback of having your fans pay to playtest- you can't put anything drasticly different in there. So that makes me worry that this is going to be more like 3.6 (since 3.5 is more like a 3.1) than a real 4th edition, that is as different from 3rd as 3rd was from 2nd.

I think I'm gonna start a thread on what new mechanics have been put out, and what's likely to make it in 4e.
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Crissa
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by Crissa »

They won't do any of those, clik.

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erik
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by erik »

Yeah, that's much of the problem present in making people pay to play test via supplements. No drastic changes that are incompatible with the old system can be tested.

Even if they did try to incorporate the kind of changes I'd like, my confidence in their ability to get it right on their own (i.e. sans testing) is negligible. There's really no hope of the current WotC crew getting it right, even if they tried.

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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by MrWaeseL »

You know bitnine, as much as you're a wotc boards superstar and all, quoting old rants of yourself as a sort of e-masturbation is pretty unsettling.
Captain_Bleach
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by Captain_Bleach »

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1187468340[/unixtime]]You know bitnine, as much as you're a wotc boards superstar and all, quoting old rants of yourself as a sort of e-masturbation is pretty unsettling.


No more unsettling than several posters' obsession with male genitalia.
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Captain_Bleach at [unixtime wrote:1187491204[/unixtime]]
MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1187468340[/unixtime]]You know bitnine, as much as you're a wotc boards superstar and all, quoting old rants of yourself as a sort of e-masturbation is pretty unsettling.


No more unsettling than several posters' obsession with male genitalia.


Hey, I'm working on it, but I can only spend so much time thinking of baseball. (To clarify, I'm obsessed with my own ... :) )

Seriously, my first impression is that I'm thinking that some of the changes may alienate some D&D players just because they are departures from what has been core to D&D for a long time. (Vancian spell system, leveling races, etc.) My second impression is the little nagging voice saying, "Haven't they already offered some of this stuff in Unearthed Arcana as options, so what is new? Aren't there other gaming systems that have incorporated some of this stuff already?"

However, I'll guess I'll see what it is like when it comes out. I do have to say that it did dampen my spirits on buying any gaming books during GenCon - I just bought D&D miniatures (not for the game - for D&D) and OotS comic books. I guess as a whole I'm ambivalent on everything.
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by JonSetanta »

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1187468340[/unixtime]]You know bitnine, as much as you're a wotc boards superstar and all, quoting old rants of yourself as a sort of e-masturbation is pretty unsettling.


It's for convenience. But I do remember that quote, as much as I didn't enjoy that course of action. It's underhanded, sneaky, and mean to players. Many gamers I know would not tolerate DMing of that kind, including myself.
It's due to the emotional bias of the opinion; Argumentum ad baculum. For most gamers I know, if a fiat ain't logical, it's as good as rolling a dice for makiing choices. :thumb:

As for 4e, I don't know what to make of it. Equal parts disgust and excitement?
I don't like that it exists, but I do like the changes being made.
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rapanui
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by rapanui »

Garbage.
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Re: 4th Edition is Among Us! Or Some Weird Thing Called 4dv

Post by JonSetanta »

Still investigating....

So far it seems Vancian will be finally grabbed, lynched, tarred, feathered, drawn and quartered like the ancient derelict abomination it is.
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erik
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by erik »

Even though I've had a 5 day weekend, and a 1 week vacation a bit prior to that, I don't feel like I have enough time or patience to pour through all the 4e crap to learn what little tidbits are spawning.

Thankfully there's the 4e FAQ thread that has quotes of the WotC staff who weigh in on threads about 4e

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.ph ... [br][br]My favorite so far has been
somebody wrote:Will there be a 4.5 just like there was a 3.5 in the 3.0 system?
Originally Posted by WotC_ScottR wrote:
There will be no 4.5. It is 4th Edition.

(and in a later post...)

We are not working on 4.X it's 4th edition.


Oh that made me laugh. Like 3rd edition was originally printed as 3.0 or something.

They lied up and down about 4e not being in the works for the last 2 or 3 years, and say that as if they expect to be believed. Suuuuuuuure there won't be 4.5. It will be 4eXtreme or Advanced 4e or 4electric boogaloo, and so forth.

Maybe I'll check again in a month or so. Kind of slow-going on the news (then again the open admission of 4e is only a couple weeks old, maybe I'm just needy).

I'm getting more excited about 4e, mostly because I don't really acknowledge 3.5 as a real edition but just a crappy homebrew version of 3rd edition made by an overreaching and misguided DM. As such, it's been a good run for 3rd edition and it's about time for a change. If WotC didn't come out with a new edition soon I'd make my own up or use somebody else's brewed-up system. Hell, I still may- Dead Man's Hand looks damned tempting.

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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by tzor »

I think I've discovered something as a result of 4E. I am driven away from a forum with a lock on it as surely as garlic repells a vampire. (Really, I almost hissed at the icon.) Really the notion of such tight controlls on the threads is just repulsive to me an I'm not playing those games.
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tzor
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by tzor »

If you read between the lines there is no 4.0 because there is no single 4E edition. Technically the 4E books are already obsolete the moment they print them. The actual 4E is a dynamic constantly updated series of documents that will always be up to date and always be 4E. 4E in 2009 probably won't be the same as 4E in 2008 but it's still 4E.

The implication for the SRD, which becomes in effect a moving target is going to be just wonderful for games designers using the moving target SRD ... NOT.
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Crissa
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by Crissa »

Yep, we wouldn't want to admit we changed anything at any point in the past.
9-9

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Draco_Argentum
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by Draco_Argentum »

Pretty sure we've always been at war with overpoweredness.
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Crissa
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by Crissa »

If there's no editions, though, how will we know which set of rules we've downloaded already? Or which set this campaign or that campaign is using?

Ugh.

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tzor
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by tzor »

About the same way one wonders what edition of the FAQ is being used. Always download the latest copy. I would not be surprised if they don't make little edition checkers for your laptops with auto download features just like they have for virus checkers.
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Crissa
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by Crissa »

...That still doesn't tell you if the rules you've read last are 'right' or are the same rules as Joe read last before bellying up to the table.

The FAQ doesn't tell you what they changed recently, just that they did change it recently. And I bet the date stamps will go away, too.

It just seems unmanageable. I rather refuse to play games where the rules change without telling me when or how.

-Crissa
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tzor
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by tzor »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1188444017[/unixtime]]It just seems unmanageable. I rather refuse to play games where the rules change without telling me when or how.


I only wish I could do that at work. :tongue:

I have a ton of code that all depends on the way they put data into the database and they keep changing the way they put data into the database without telling us they changed it.
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JonSetanta
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Re: 4th Edition FAQ

Post by JonSetanta »

tzor at [unixtime wrote:1188434188[/unixtime]]About the same way one wonders what edition of the FAQ is being used. Always download the latest copy. I would not be surprised if they don't make little edition checkers for your laptops with auto download features just like they have for virus checkers.


Where there is law, there are hackers.
Warez, cracks, etc, someone will have them produced to counter anything any corporation can throw out.
This is the immutable rule of the internet!
Even if Wizards wants to find ways around this, it's as futile as 3rd party d20 companies trying to keep up with changing SRDs.
Any little 'download to view' patch will simply be bypassed to oblivion.
I always liked Dragon magazine, and Paizo, and WOTC can suck my elfish balls for pulling the rights out from under Paizo's collective feets.
These insults against the gaming community just keep building, don't they?

And all these hacks, they will come from ..... Germany. As usual. haha :lol:
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