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Crissa
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 4:00 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

What if you say, 'Someone ought to lynch that Rapa-Nui!' and someone goes out and lynches Rapa-Nui?

How do we tell a threat from reality?

What if you merely blogged about about Rapa-Nui doing something truthfully, suggested amicably that he should be stopped, and Rapa-Nui's house is firebombed... Or that after every such post you make about various subjects, there was a similar act of violence?

-Crissa
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 28, 2007 6:31 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
How do we tell a threat from reality?

Thats what the legal system is for, it works pretty well here.

The thing is if telling your winged monkey minions to kill people isn't a crime then it doesn't matter if you can prove that they kill everyone you tell them to. Because, well you never actually killed anyone, you just gave a speach, speach is free right?

I mean Hitler he was all smoke and mirrors and public speaking really. But that public speaking was an obvious and direct criminal act, right? Or was it OK for him to say and write all those things that resulted in the deaths of so many people? How many did he kill using words alone? He certainly didn't use kung fu.

In the lead up to the race riots in Sydney we had various famous radio personalities spouting a great deal of trash including creating a platform for and congratulating people openly advocating exactly the kind of violence that ended up happening.

We have some state laws that apply and one of those high profile radio personalities was taken through the courts and found guilty.

We seriously had a variety of these guys on radio day after day in the lead up to the riots doing a number of things.

Spreading outright slurs and insults like how all arabs were stupid, violent, inferior, criminal, and in one infamous case supposedly so inbred that in the rather strange words of the fool saying it they were "diseducationable" (or some such similar word he unknowingly invented on the spot)

They were spreading some rather thick lies and propaganda villifying a racial minority. It was so bad that many of the idiots involved in the initial riots actually believed a lot of it, including the following.
1) The specific event sparking the riots involved a Lebanese gang that severely beat a single brave life guard who, on duty, intervened to save an innocent young girl (sometimes a white girl, sometimes a Lebanese girl) from their indistinct evil deeds.
2) Muslims arabs and brown people in general rape women, like all the time, and think its cool. And the Australian muslim community had tried to have court cases involving young muslim rapists tried in their Islamic courts because rape is not a crime to them.

These being insanely stupidly false because,
1) The incident that sparked the riots involved an off duty life savers surfy gang slinging racist insults back and forth with a group of lebanese youths until a scuffle broke out between the gangs. This is not entirely an uncommon event either, the surfy gang for one is known to be highly violent and territorial. There was also no girl involved at all.
2) There is no higher incidence of muslim or arab rapists in Australia. The Islamic community did not condone the crime in question, and did not try to have those court cases tried under Islamic law. The very idea of an Islamic legal system opperating parrallel to our regular legal system is a laughable falsehood. And rape is still a crime under Islamic law, which lets remember we don't actually have here anyway.

But worst of all these guys were on air encouraging large scale racial violence, people were ringing in talking about how they were going to ignore the police and take matters into their own hands to give the "Lebs" some of their own (often lets remember entirely fictional) medicine and sweep the scum off the Sydney beaches and back to where they came from by force and worse.

And these guys were there just yukking it up, laughing along with whatever nazi like suggestion that came up next was, agreeing, encouraging and providing a soap box for a movement run in large part by violent neo nazi gangs, including a major one based in my own home region of Newcastle that pushed for and succeeded in sparking violent riots.

Now you can talk about exactly where you draw the line but society draws lines like this all the time, using courts. And its pretty clear that sooner or later you draw the line somewhere well before you allow major free to air mainstream radio to be used as a tool to promote organised violent riots.

And therefore there are some things that it is criminal to say on the radio or in the media, and on that basis perhaps elsewhere on the stage of life as well.

The sad thing here really is that our hate speach laws aren't applied as vigorously or often as they should be. If they were our Prime Minister would be in jail. Man he says some BAD things. But then the bad things he does are far worse.
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rapanui
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 5:53 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Regarding Crissa's concern:

Someone is committing a crime, but not the person with the opinion.

Regarding the Hitler thing, Hitler didn't just give speeches, he gave orders and was in a position to command. The extermination camps didn't build themselves and it took the orders of Mr. Hitler and his high command for people to actually go out and execute the horrendous vision.

When Hitler made speeches giving his opinions and views about the Jewish race/culture/religion/populace/whatever he did stir up anti-Semitic violence but in those cases when the violence was a side reaction to what he said, he committed no crimes himself. (In my view)

So, let's say:

Crissa: "I really think someone ought to bump that Rapa-Nui jackass off."

*PhoneLobster goes and firebombs my house*

In that case, PhoneLobster would be to blame.

IF Crissa were in a position of direct command over Phone Lobster then it gets a bit more iffy and depends on how the sentence was phrased.

Now, you may ask why I'm defending the right of people to say I ought to be lynched or that my race is inferior, etc. Well, it always goes back to the nagging problem that I want to be able to decry the government in whichever way it pleases me. Suppose there came to be a super oppressive... oh I don't know... Icelandic Immigrant government in the US. Maybe then I would want to say "I hate all those goddamn Icelanders!" without getting thrown in prison for hate speech. Or, maybe I really want to suggest that Hugo Chavez should have a bullet put through his skull (hell, someone else might even go out and do it, wouldn't that be something!).

As uncomfortable as it seems, speech enticing people to violence is the most typical way of getting rid of totalitarian governments outside of foreign intervention.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 6:29 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
Regarding Crissa's concern:

Let me try to be a little more concise about that then.

Its like pointing a gun at someone.

Maybe you didn't know it was a gun.

Maybe you were just joking.

Maybe you didn't mean for it to go off.

Maybe you didn't intend to shoot them in the head.

Maybe you did but maybe you didn't mean to actually kill them.

But the "line" is drawn in part by law and in part by its application in courts. Courts which decide which of those maybes are true.

And which may even decide that even if you didn't intend or comprehend any harm at all that pointing a gun at someone is in and of itself quiet possibly SOME form of crime under the law of the land (and maybe with good reason too).

Thats where incitement to violence and genocide belong.

wrote:
he gave orders and was in a position to command

And he got into that position of primarily by his writings and speaches which brought him power by directing the hatred of a nation against itself.

Telling a bunch of people to form a lynch mob and kill some poor schmo is, at the absolute least potentially, a crime regardless of whether you yourself later exploit the situation to gain a title and position of power within the lynch mob.

Maybe less of a crime but a crime all the same.

wrote:
Well, it always goes back to the nagging problem that I want to be able to decry the government in whichever way it pleases me. Suppose there came to be a super oppressive... oh I don't know... Icelandic Immigrant government in the US. Maybe then I would want to say "I hate all those goddamn Icelanders!" without getting thrown in prison for hate speech... ...As uncomfortable as it seems, speech enticing people to violence is the most typical way of getting rid of totalitarian governments outside of foreign intervention.

That is an exceptionally lame defence of the position you describe because the situation is laughable.

I don't mean laughable in that you might have a super oppressive and/or Icelandic government in the US.

I mean it is laughable on two much more fundamental fronts.

1) A super oppressive government WILL kill you and your family for saying that, they really don't care what sort of hate speach laws a progressive government once had in your nation or does have elsewhere.

2) If you are actually fighting a violent uprising against totalitarian oppression you probably also won't care one jot about the laws restricting your speach, I mean you are running around shooting public officials and blowing up government buildings after all... Or are you planning on running the armed rebellion without breaking ANY laws.

You are seriously arguing that because you might need to overturn and destroy an evil society you should prevent a good society from having laws that prevent people from overturning and destroying that good society.

There is really no connection at all between the dots on that one.

wrote:
Or, maybe I really want to suggest that Hugo Chavez should have a bullet put through his skull (hell, someone else might even go out and do it, wouldn't that be something!).

You cannot kill Chavez. You can only make him stronger.

I think the US government has proved that rather handily.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 30, 2007 1:11 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

rapanui wrote:
Regarding Crissa's concern:

Someone is committing a crime, but not the person with the opinion.

So, let's say:

Crissa: "I really think someone ought to bump that Rapa-Nui jackass off."

*PhoneLobster goes and firebombs my house*

In that case, PhoneLobster would be to blame.


So at no point or situation should the person who spoke Fire be responsible if they themselves didn't do the crime?

-Crissa
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JonSetanta
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 6:00 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Uh... uhmm

...

I'm voting for Obama.

The reason is that I can not find fault with him, from the moment I first saw his first speech on BookTV or some shit.
I am still looking for some dissenting opinion, but have yet to find it. Perhaps I must find more sources on him and his views.

One topic, a hot one in Arab countries (like the Dutch comic? harhar) is Obama's recent declaration that if he were president he would hunt down extremists in Pakistan tribal regions. Cuz, frankly, that's where they are.
Bin Laden is probably there. That, or in a Swedish hotel. Or maybe working a kiosk in a California mall, who knows.
But Pakistan got a hissy fit, as usual, and want to kill Obama too now.

Well I'm all for bombing.. uh I mean economically destabilizing uhhhh OK I meant SEARCHING Pakistan and Syria since pissing around Iraq is just getting young Americans killed, for old men in suits, over oil. And it needs to stop.

Just like the tirades on defining racism in this thread. That's not political, that's natural; all organic life seeks out those that most resemble itself.
Same applies to humans and skin color, although I swear some ethnicities smell really, really weird due to their ethnic diets.
We just have to evolve on an individual level rather than genetically, and become better than our animal histories. There's no need to discriminate by 'race' in our cultures, yet there it is, everywhere, even among children.
Which means that humanity as a whole is a crude, knuckledragging, slackjaw, self-loathing seething mass of primate bigotry and delusion, and quite probably DOES NOT WANT TO EVOLVE! Razz
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cthulhu
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 4:33 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes, economically destablising Pakistan is a good idea.

Not. i mean, what the hell? for all he isn't exactly highly efficient, he beats a theocracy.
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

cthulhu wrote:
Yes, economically destablising Pakistan is a good idea.

Not. i mean, what the hell? for all he isn't exactly highly efficient, he beats a theocracy.


That was a comment on the Bush-Cheney neocon regime.
Also, sarcasm, which does not translate well online.

But yes, he wipes the floor with any theocracy. He'll probably also get shot by some nutbag conservative for being black, progressive, and president, but I hope not.
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Sir Neil
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 1:32 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

sigma999 wrote:
cthulhu wrote:
Yes, economically destablising Pakistan is a good idea.

Not. i mean, what the hell? for all he isn't exactly highly efficient, he beats a theocracy.


That was a comment on the Bush-Cheney neocon regime.
Also, sarcasm, which does not translate well online.

But yes, he wipes the floor with any theocracy. He'll probably also get shot by some nutbag conservative for being black, progressive, and president, but I hope not.


President Musharraf is black? He looks brown, like my relatives.

***

I don't like Senator Obama. He keeps telling the truth in public -- seriously, what the hell is wrong with him?

The latest gem I've heard from him was that he wouldn't use nukes on terrorists. It's irresponsible for him to let his enemies know his biggest weapon was off the table.

That was the third time he "missed a great opportunity to shut up." I don't like Senator Clinton -- she's going to steal my money and my guns, that's what Democrats do -- but at least she isn't so naive.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 3:20 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
It's irresponsible for him to let his enemies know his biggest weapon was off the table.

Because its important a bunch of under resourced insane guys with outdated primitive weapons hiding in a cave somewhere be "afraid" that your latest nutty president might nuke an arab nation which is friendly to you.

Drop a nuke on Pakistan and just WATCH Bin Laden ejaculate right in front of everyone. Just hearing the "can't keep it off the table talk" has him stroking his nipples and yelling out "more MORE!"

The only idiots in the entire world who think that Obama is "making a mistake" are the so called "Washington Foreign Policy Establishment" a bunch of low life know nothings who have been wrong about everything to do with foreign policy since the dawn of recorded history.
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Sir Neil
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 11:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
Because its important a bunch of under resourced insane guys with outdated primitive weapons hiding in a cave somewhere be "afraid" that your latest nutty president might nuke an arab nation which is friendly to you.


confused Um, no. Sloppy choice of words. We overthrew the government of Afghanistan just for not arresting Bin Ladin. What would we do to a nation that openly helps him? Apply sanctions? Invade? Nuke? Ideally, they'll decide it isn't worth the risk.

Incidentally, the paper said Senator Clinton has changed her stance from a year ago, when she took the position Senator Obama has.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 2:06 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
Um, no. Sloppy choice of words. We overthrew the government of Afghanistan just for not arresting Bin Ladin. What would we do to a nation that openly helps him? Apply sanctions? Invade? Nuke? Ideally, they'll decide it isn't worth the risk.

Um, no. Sloppy choice of words. We overthrew the government of Afghanistan for ACTIVELY helping Bin Ladin. The current government does NOT actively help him, and frankly are terrified that his allies growing strength will return them to power over their bullet ridden corpses.

Not to mention the current Afghan government is effectively OUR government the one we put there and backed with our stamp of approval and would collapse into nothing without western support.

But all in all its ODD that you should mention Afghanistan as an non allied nation we should nuke (rather than an allied one we shouldn't, which is what it is) since everyone else was talking about PAKISTAN.

A completely different allied Arab nation we shouldn't nuke to try and kill a bunch of hole dwelling crazy rebel cockroaches just so they can rise up and replace the current civilization in the post apocalyptic rubble and tell the rest of the world "we told you so!".
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Sir Neil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 3:58 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
But all in all its ODD that you should mention Afghanistan as an non allied nation we should nuke (rather than an allied one we shouldn't, which is what it is) since everyone else was talking about PAKISTAN.


WTF No one has said we should nuke anyone.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 4:55 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
What would we do to a nation that openly helps him? Apply sanctions? Invade? Nuke? Ideally

Also...

wrote:
The latest gem I've heard from him was that he wouldn't use nukes on terrorists.


And just to get you on the same page as everyone else let me point out that This is a reasonable summary of the root event that later caused Obama to mention how he would be quite happy to send various somewhat more reasonable responses to any country he might locate terrorists hiding in.

Just felt it might be wise to remind you of what people here were saying, including you, and also what they were talking about.

Your last post suggested you needed a reminder.

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Sir Neil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:21 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

confused Neither quote is advocating a nuclear attack.

**
Thanks for the piece on Senator Obama.

"Did Obama suggest he would never consider a nuclear response to any enemy, under any circumstances? Of course not, but that was the lead political story throughout much of the political world yesterday afternoon."

Is he that much of a threat to Senator Clinton's campaign?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 5:52 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
Neither quote is advocating a nuclear attack.

Both are quotes directly advocating that you should make nations (apparently your allies) fear that you MIGHT nuke them in order for them to like, love you or something.

Both directly advocate never ever publically ruling out nuking your allied countries.

Both suggest that actually nuking allied countries should "always be on the table", ie an actual real possibility.

Admittedly your quote wasn't exactly in the context knowing precisely what status the west alliance with countries on the table for nuking might be or even really which country was being reffered to, but still... you were eager that somewhere know that maybe you might nuke them.

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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's stupid both ways.

Also, Afghanistan only failed to arrest bin Laden (they couldn't, literally). There was no active 'help'.

If by 'actively help' you mean 'took graft from'.

-Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:17 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sir_Neil wrote:

President Musharraf is black? He looks brown, like my relatives.

I don't like Senator Obama. He keeps telling the truth in public -- seriously, what the hell is wrong with him?


No. Obama.

He tells the truth when it matters (talking to his constituency/fans/followers), and many conservatives might hate him for that, but it's one of the reasons why I want him as president.


Aw damn it PhoneLobster, picking fights again. Razz
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:06 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
There was no active 'help'.

Well, certainly the ties between the dreaded and entirely not imaginary, no really, trust us, james bond like super villians and the prior Afghan government were a lot stronger.

But anyway in my opinion the Taliban had far greater reaching and worse impact on human lives than the rather more nebulous underachieving cat stroking terrorists.

And I still wouldn't nuke them under any circumstances, because just like with the terrorists, A) Its counterproductive, B) its monstrous, C) Even suggesting you might do it makes things worse.

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Crissa
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Nukes just don't work against terrorist acts.

They are so large as to destroy huge things at once, and have potential deliterious effects down the road.

Their effect is to be larger in imagination than in real life - if we were to use bunker nukes or tactical nukes, it would reduce the fear of the weapons against whole nations.

If we were to use them - other nations would then be free to use them.

The only time we should consider - or even say it's on the table - is when there is a real Rogue Nation (like Iraq in 1989) or axis of like powers aligned.

But we don't have to use them. No one needs to know that a tactical nuke dropped in New York wouldn't have done more damage than those two airplanes. It's rather important that they not know, in fact.

So they should be off the table when dealing with terrorists and suicide bombers, even if those guys do use nukes. Because they do not have a home town and country supporting them literally.

-Crissa

PS: There were several reasons the Taliban could not arrest bin Laden. First, he was a hometown hero and thereby guest of the country from their war of independence. Islamic law says that you cannot harm or blame your guest. Second, he was popular in the little people for his broad investments into the community. He had invested millions of his family's money into rebuilding the country. It would've been hard to find people willing to turn on him who were not rebels as is. Third, he had his own standing army: Men with guns and other weapons ostensibly to keep him safe from the rebels, but also including the al queda training camps.

Thus, the Taliban couldn't arrest him. The government couldn't arrest him because the Taliban wouldn't go past reason #1, let alone #3.
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Sir Neil
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 9:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I have no idea why what I'm saying and what you're hearing isn't the same, Phone, so read Crissa's last post for my position on nuclear weapons.

Sigma wrote:
He tells the truth when it matters (talking to his constituency/fans/followers), and many conservatives might hate him for that, but it's one of the reasons why I want him as president.


There are things you aren't supposed to say in public. (Like, "I'm willing to invade my allies," or "Straighten up or we'll squash you like bugs.") A statesman should save those comments for private meetings.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 12:36 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Sir_Neil wrote:

There are things you aren't supposed to say in public. (Like, "I'm willing to invade my allies," or "Straighten up or we'll squash you like bugs.") A statesman should save those comments for private meetings.


I think politics would be more entertaining if politicians did tell the truth all the time.

For example, if Dubya's campaign platform was "I'm going to bring the nation one generation away from total economic collapse with a pointless war in Iraq and allow the Chinese to anally rape us via trade while pissing on the environment", it would have made things a lot simpler.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 1:05 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It would be entertaining. Smile
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 2:43 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

First of all a president should never say never. (Unless he is saying that he should never say never which ... oh nevermind.) I also think that there should be a distinction between nuclear weapons in general and specific small nuclear devices like bunker busters. (Assuming that they work as advertised which I am not confident they will.)

Given that it is illogical to think that terrorists will operate under the MAD philosophy that binds the actions of nuclear nations. Sure it will work for even the likes of India and Pakistan, but not for terrorists in general.

In one sense all wars have an element of propaganda. Just because someone calls you the evil empire does not mean you are obligated to comply. In fact it is a sign of power not a sign of weakness not to use the ace up your sleave.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2007 6:37 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

The problem is that using bunker-busters (which does work, I'll walk you to a crater or two in Nevada) weakens the resolve of MAD, and makes people think they can survive a few nukes tossed around.

It's our trump card, we shouldn't waste it or pretend that these guys are worth it.

-Crissa
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