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Crissa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:42 am    Post subject: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I've enjoyed the conversation here about various topics immensely.

Normally, I have no reason to care (aside from wishing people would come over from the dark side) what political leanings one person or other have. I have friends ranging from crazy leftist to crazy libertarian. While the latter is harder to remain friends with, that's more a property of any extreme point, where you get an amount of fingers-in-ears.

But I've always liked how everyone here is able to speak their mind, doesn't mind looking things up, and even if our solutions are different, I've seen alot more honesty on to why they think that way.

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what your politics are when coming to the game table. It only makes for insteresting conversation, to me.

I'd rather have this out in the open, than trying to tip-toe around it. The only thing I can't really stand are people who won't look things up and accept when they're wrong.

After all, I look things up and find I'm wrong often enough!

-Crissa
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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 1:41 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

the only thing that bothers me is rudeness.

If you can't make a point without insulting people that disagree with you, as far as I'm concerned, you don't have a point worth worrying about.

And I have a reason too. when I was a young'un, I was bullied mercilessly. I was treated like an inferior being just because I had some emotional problems, and I was friends with some kid who had severe mental problems. (Because I was friends with that guy, that meant we were both "bundles of sticks" in the logic of the virginia redneck. Use your imagination on that one.)

I was constantly shouted down, was abused verbally, physically, and sexually on several occasions.

I was weak in thos edays. Now, as an adult, I am strong. And now that I'm strong, I have a burning hatred of anyone who uses verbal abuse to make their points. If you insult those you disagree with, you instantly become those assholes that put me through so much hell when I was small, and I have a burning desire to yank your ass right out your square and tell you that shit doesn't fly.

I don't care if you're right. If you are right, then the facts speak for themselves. Insulting those you disagree with just makes you an asshole. And I will tell you that you're being an asshole, even if I think you're right on your points.

As far as my political leanings, I'd like top think of myself as a moderate, but let's be honest, I've been steadily moving left in my politics for a few years now. My conscious tells me that the right does too much shit that can't be allowed to continue. I still don't trust Democrats in general, but I'm ready to give them the reins for a bit just so Colonel clusterfvck can't do any more damage.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 2:28 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

That's true.

But it gets really hard sometimes to continue an argument, no matter how informative it can be, when 'insult' includes 'that idea is dumb' or 'why didn't you read what I wrote?'

...That's something I usually like about here, though. We have someone who sits on the sidelines (and I really love that) and tells us when we've gone over the line. It really helps. Honestly.

I know I've insulted Tzor recently, and vice versa, but we've had fbmf et al to tell us when we stepped over the line. It's a big help.

-Crissa
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 5:43 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I think Count that as your statement proves insults and verbal/textual abuse are very powerful weapons.

My general reasoning is that banishing them to the exclusive use of the bad guys is an unimaginably dumb idea.

It would be like taking a major profitable industry like recreational drugs and just giving it to international organized crime to fund itself with.

IE so stupid no one other than a completely morally bankrupt drooling moron would ever do that or support that.

Well OK maybe not THAT stupid, but still not a smart move.

And the great thing about letting the good guys fight the good fight with weapons like insults is that they are among the very limited arsenal of weapons that really aren't going to go around killing people (unlike other "non fatal" weaponry like anesthetic gas or stun guns). I mean, we aren't talking nukes here.

And thats not even excluding the very real possibility that insulting language isn't just a weapon, its potentially a very vital part of public discourse. When I see someone complaining about how politicians "waste time" trying to brand the other side as arseholes I think to myself. "Well maybe we should damn well help them identify and brand the arseholes so we can get rid of them".

Calling someone a Racist is an insult, and a rather dire one, few Australians can stomache it.

But here in Australia we DESPERATELY need the R word to be slung around a lot more freely, its getting really bad down here. We could use a few slingings or the term Facist to boot (and a hell of a lot more use of the word Liars in regards to some of our prominent leaders...).

Lack of such labelling is what allowed us to get to the point of having ignorant overly entitled white rioters running through the streets yelling "kill the lebs, kill the wogs". These rioters, so ignorant and unchallended that the majority of them DON'T THINK OF THEMSELVES AS RACIST FVCKS, do not want to be rudely reminded that they in fact are exactly that. Reminding them, and reminding them clearly and concisely at every opportunity is nothing but a good thing. Making them feel bad enough about doing that sort of thing might just discourage them.

Failure to use these words is what allows prominent "respected" public figures, like the former leader of the Australian monarchist movement on a recent prominent public TV aired fluff piece doco on the Australian flag to talk about "racial pride in our british heritage" in the context of our recent race riots and the flags place in them.

In a tiny interview she used the word pride something like 6 times, you know the riots we had were sponsored by neo nazis? You know what white pride is none too subtle code for? You know how much support it gives them for this lady to say that stuff without an interviewer or similar public figure slinging the word Racist into her face?

Fvck I sat through that entire documentary in which there was not even one single mention of the aboriginal flag, not even a glimpse, not even a flash of Cathy Freeman. Do you know how massive an oversight that is? Would it not be appropriate, even helpful for the standards of debate for me to brand that entire show a piece of ignorant, racist, nationilistic, neo nazi, dog whistle propaganda?

So I see you going on about "insults" and what I see is someone trying to disarm the good guys, and maybe even cripple debate entirely. Far too often we see people protecting a powerful right wing agenda by pretending that they are somehow polite to suggest something like shooting mexicans at the border and their opponents calling them names in response are a bunch of potty mouthed ravers.

The powers that be are constantly trying to quash dissent by taking a false stand against incivility (and defining all complaints against them no matter how justified as uncivil and insulting). It happens so often anything similar from you looks like just more of the same stupid meme.

Being "civil" is a contributing factor for my country's continued downward spiral into becoming the south africa and nazi germany of the pacific rolled into one.

The "civility" argument is old and it is DEAD. Its time to call the fvckers out and brand them with the mighty words of power that do so much to break the veneer of practiced euphamisms, damage political careers and discredit ideas. Because it is ALWAYS time to do that.
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fbmf
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:07 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
"Civility" is very much alive at The Gaming Den. Assuming you like posting here.
[/TGFBS]
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FrankTrollman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:58 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It is no accident that "Political Correctness" is an invention of the American Right Wing. That was the Reagan Revolution, not spending all the money on their friends and cutting taxes on the rich to spark an orgy of environmental and economic catastrophes around the world - but to define their agenda in terms of civil rights and to define counter agendas as hate speach.

That's why these people can seriously force little girls into months of painful and dangerous unpaid and uncontracted slave labor, forcing them out of school and possibly seriously impacting their growth and health - and still call themselves "Pro-Life" for doing it. And if you dare call their plan something fairly accurate such as "monstrous" or "murderous", then you're accused of being uncivil.

-Frank
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shirak
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:02 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I live by the code that there is a time and a place for everything. Sometimes, insulting someone is the only way to get your message across. Sometimes, it is merely the best of all possible ways. And sometimes, as with you, Count, it's a great way to fail.

I see your point but let me tell you, half the time I'll get better results out of saying "this is stupid" than I will out of "Maybe we should reconsider". Insulting people is a time-honored tradition and you, sir, are stepping on my rights! Wink
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:27 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Theres a big difference between a valid comment that happens to be insulting and insults for the sake of it.

Lets go with racism. Calling the KKK racist is accurate. Calling people against affirmative action racist just means you have no real counter argument.

When it became known that Hollingsworth had covered up paedophile priests thats when insults are called for. Unfortunately name calling is normally used by our elected dickbags to deflect attention from themselves.
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shirak
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Draco_Argentum wrote:
Theres a big difference between a valid comment that happens to be insulting and insults for the sake of it.


Indeed. What Count was talking about, however, was a global ban on insults.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 9:02 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

wrote:
Lets go with racism. Calling the KKK racist is accurate. Calling people against affirmative action racist just means you have no real counter argument.

But maybe the KKK member isn't presented as such, maybe he is presented as a member of a "White Pride" movement, or an "expert commentator on racial issues".

And maybe he is the one making a spurious argument against affirmative action.

Or maybe he isn't there at all and the person making the 'argument' just keeps with the dog whistle shit like pushing "the failure of multiculuralism", or dropping the word "pride" into every other sentence while talking about "regular folks" and not about "lazy welfare" beneficiaries.

But frankly trying to keep black kids out of education, which is the argument you are talking about, is pretty darn racist on the face of it without Mr Hypotheti-KKK-al even having been born.
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:49 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
But frankly trying to keep black kids out of education, which is the argument you are talking about, is pretty darn racist on the face of it without Mr Hypotheti-KKK-al even having been born.


The problem being that AA relegates black people to the position of charity beneficiaries, demonstrates utter contempt for the notion of them being intellectually equal and is a total bandaid solution to a real problem.

Why are minorities pulling lower tertiary entrance scores? is a question that needs to be answered. Then something needs to be done about it. Instead we get AA and anyone even trying to point out a flaw in that plan is a racist.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Maybe the flaw in your plan in pointing out the flaw in the plan is that you are in actual effect choosing to do so in a manner that attacks the only part of the current plan that is NOT actually a flaw.

If someone is serious about having equal and mixed education then their first move is not to suggest the removal one of the only current successful measures to aid that cause.

So when someone suggests the removing blacks from american colleges on the basis that gosh, welfare is somehow evil and demeaning and the rest of the education available to them sucks anyway... well... I know I'm not thinking that someone is really working for civil rights or anything like that.

But there are men in the white pride movement who will back you all the way.
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Well you just pulled guilty by association and straw man in a couple sentences. Which I knew you would, thanks for showing why your plan for insult heavy politics is not going anywhere. Instead of anything that resembles reason or logic you've dived straight into the illogical, emotive arguments.

If we want the level of politics to be raised above a schoolyard shouting match we have to stop voting schoolchildren in. I hold no hope of this happening, sign me up with team robot.
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Really? My suggestion that removing the only actual policy helping the current situation might be dumb is NOT a fair point.

And reminding people that the argument you are making is the EXACT SAME argument used by members of the white pride movement is not important?

Seriously, if your argument is to remove affirmative action then your argument is fundamentally associated with those that have been trying to do that, often with the same argument, since day one, sorry for telling your the truth thats as plain as your ass but there you go.
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tzor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
I know I've insulted Tzor recently, and vice versa, but we've had fbmf et al to tell us when we stepped over the line. It's a big help.


I think we have on occasion crossed the line and have been a tad bit too passionate about our respetive positions, but in all honestly, I've never really felt personally insulted.

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Count Arioch the 28th
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FrankTrollman wrote:

That's why these people can seriously force little girls into months of painful and dangerous unpaid and uncontracted slave labor, forcing them out of school and possibly seriously impacting their growth and health - and still call themselves "Pro-Life" for doing it. And if you dare call their plan something fairly accurate such as "monstrous" or "murderous", then you're accused of being uncivil.


You see, "I don't consider it monstrous or murderous, I consider it fair and equitable.

None of these girls getting knocked up in their teens are ingorant of the fact that spreading their legs mean babies. They knew the consequences when they decided to have sexual relations.
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Maj
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count Arioch wrote:
the only thing that bothers me is rudeness.




Only a large amount of respect for the person talking will overcome my desire to just ignore the comments from that person. And even then, that respect is earned from people who tend to back up their insults with a coherent, informative perspective.


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Catharz
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 6:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

PhoneLobster wrote:
wrote:
Lets go with racism. Calling the KKK racist is accurate. Calling people against affirmative action racist just means you have no real counter argument.

But maybe the KKK member isn't presented as such, maybe he is presented as a member of a "White Pride" movement, or an "expert commentator on racial issues".

And maybe he is the one making a spurious argument against affirmative action.

Or maybe he isn't there at all and the person making the 'argument' just keeps with the dog whistle shit like pushing "the failure of multiculuralism", or dropping the word "pride" into every other sentence while talking about "regular folks" and not about "lazy welfare" beneficiaries.

But frankly trying to keep black kids out of education, which is the argument you are talking about, is pretty darn racist on the face of it without Mr Hypotheti-KKK-al even having been born.


Affirmative Action isn't the only possible way. Anti-capitalist =/= Monarchist.
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Crissa
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Count_Arioch_the_28th wrote:

None of these girls getting knocked up in their teens are ingorant of the fact that spreading their legs mean babies. They knew the consequences when they decided to have sexual relations.

Actually, that's the opposite of the truth.

The places where teen pregnancies are the highest are places without comprehensive sex-ed. In other words, they probably didn't know.

Also, it doesn't require penetration for pregnancy.

...And on the topic of Affirmative Action... Perhaps one of these people against it would like to come up with another method? Because the last one they came up with in our state (California) was to attempt to require hospitals and schools and police to not record the race of anyone they came in contact with. Because if they don't record it, doncha know, it'll mean they'll be treated equally.

-Crissa
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 10:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

But no alternative is being suggested, the suggestion was that calling people "against affirmative action" racist is unfair and mean.

And here is the thing. No alternative is ever suggested.

People just fall for a meme, spread by the opponents of equality, that gosh, one of the few policies to promote equality must be removed in order to facilitate a nebulous imaginary potential plan to promote MORE equality that somehow cannot live with the prior smaller plan.

In order to implement the secret master plan to SAVE equality you must first, before doing anything else, destroy what little you have! Yeah that will work!

Hey maybe down here we should remove the aboriginal right to vote, its also hasn't solved the greater equality problem so clearly its a failed policy standing in the way of an alternative.
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tzor
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2007 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Crissa wrote:
Actually, that's the opposite of the truth.

The places where teen pregnancies are the highest are places without comprehensive sex-ed. In other words, they probably didn't know.

Also, it doesn't require penetration for pregnancy.


I think I'll shock even myself by saying I completely agree with you Crissa, although back in "my day" the ignorance typically went the other way with uninformed girls worrying about getting pregnant from the wrong toilet seat.

I suppose you can get pregnant from outtercourse as well as intercourse.

Reasonable, comprehensive, sex education is the key. More likely than not a lot of parents have to get some basic education as well.

As for affirmative action, it's great when it works without you knowing about it. My father worried and sweated every time there was a layoff threat at Brookhaven National Laboratories. It turned out that as a Ex-POW Disabled Veteran he was high on the affirmative action lists and not on the layoff lists. Only the bosses knew that of course.

I really have no problem when all things are relatively equal giving someone a preference. The probem is when all things are not relatively equal. Then the goal should be to make those things relatively equal. We can get lost in percentages and miss out on the whole picture. I really wish I had a better solution.
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dbb
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 5:24 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

It's certainly pleasant to be able to converse with people who can disagree with you without the accompanying assumption that you must therefore be an idiot, a fascist, a communist, or all of the above (depending on the political leanings of the person in question). And vice versa, of course.

It's rare. But it is pleasant.
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Draco_Argentum
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 7:40 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

P1: Race has no bearing on intellectual capacity.

P2: Poor people go to worse schools.

P3: Minorities are on average poorer than whites.

C1: Minorities get worse scores because they go to worse schools.

Now, lets say we decide to fix that by letting minorities into tertiary education with lower scores. This simply means you are using race to determine access to a social program designed to help victims of bad schools.

The correct answer is obviously to give everyone who got stuck with a bad school a way into college, regardless of race. Also, the school system has to be fixed.

Of course AA allows the rich people who actually make policy to pretend to help the minorities whilst not fixing the real issue. This plan also allows them to keep most of the poor down.

Then we get to the presumably well meaning supporters of AA within the general public. By shouting down anyone who points out the logical flaw inherent in AA all you do is help stifle any challenges.

Now, would anyone like to disagree with one of those premises? Or are you simply going to call me a racist again?
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PhoneLobster
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 9:11 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Your argument is the same spurious trash presented by the white supremists when they don't want to be called on their shit.

You are ignoring a simple truth, AA is not the fvcking problem.

The big problem presented is that poor black people get shit education.

Affirmative action in colleges means that some of them, at some level, recieve good education. This does not preclude in anyway any plans to provide others good education at any other or indeed all levels, nor is it the cause of the poor education.

You are suggesting we should scrap "AA" and just magically fix the entire problem. You notably present no plan to do so, but fine. Lets magically fix the whole problem.

But lets NOT scrap AA first like a bunch of petulant children with no attention span, because even if the magical fix starts tommorrow there is at the very least a whole generation of college students that need the assistance provided by AA.

The BEST magical undefined solution still paints you as the guy who wants to kick a bunch of blacks out of college for at least a generation.

The more likely scenario is that you have no magical solution up your sleeve at all, they will continue to get shit education at all levels and under your plan will ALSO not recieve college education.

That is just pure genius that plan is, but only if you want to TOTALLY disenfranchise a minority...

Now like I said before here is an argument like the one you keep presenting.

Australian aboriginals had really bad living conditions.

Because they were utterly disenfranchised from society and politics.

So we gave them the right to vote.

But they still have really bad living conditions and are disenfranchised from society and politics.

So clearly we need to remove their right to vote and "do something" about the real cause of the problem. Right?

I'm curious when you have the flu do you avoid medication that relieves some of the symptoms simply because it isn't a cure? You wouldn't go talking the talk without walking the walk now would you?
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CalibronXXX
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 13, 2007 10:37 am    Post subject: Re: Political leanings... Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I actually do eschew medication that only treats the symptoms, unless it's fever, since that can be actually dangerous.

And AA as it applies to college education is not a good system, like at all; you could really just take it almost exactly as it is and instead of basing it on race base it mostly on income and location. You'd get a system that works at least as well while making sure the people that need the aid/special treatment get it, regardless of race.

Seriously, doing otherwise is just saying black people are so stupid that they need special treatment, and that's terribly racist.

I'm not advocating that we take affirmative action as it stands and apply it to the poor and undereducated, I'd prefer if we came up with a better, more effective plan, and then apply it to the poor and undereducated; but that takes time, so doing it as above would at least make a decent transition point.

Also, Phone Lobster, I don't mean to be rude, but IMO you come off as a hot-head that doesn't even give your opponent the respect you should give to any human being around you. I'm not sure if you're aware of that.

As for the abortion issue, education is what we should be focusing on now. Educate parents on how to deal with this with heir pre-teens as easily and effectively as they can, and let them know how detrimental not only teen pregnancy can be, but sexual activity outside of a long term relation-ship, especially when so young, can be damaging to future, hopefully more meaningful, fulfilling and fruitful, relationships can be. Educating kids early enough, but not too fvcking early(seriously, California, do you really think it's a good idea to be giving kindergarteners sex ed!?), like say at age 9, about all the implications of sexual activity at such a young age, physical, social, mental, and emotional.

In closing, let me say that I consider myself pro-life, but in the setting up clinics with sonogram machines and counselors to help these women make fully informed decisions about their actions and hopefully getting them to view their fetuses as unborn children rather than parasites that they can guiltlessly flush out of their systems kind of way, not the committing murder and terrorist acts kind of way.
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