Political leanings...

[PhoneLobster]

When you suggest that you should take a policy that is helping a down trodden minority and remove, just because you imagine that it stands in the way of helping anyone else or helping the same people differently, which it rather bleedingly obviously doesn't.

Then you WILL not get the respect from me that I accord to other human beings, because YOU aren't respecting other human beings.

Because you are being a racist.

I actually do eschew medication that only treats the symptoms

Apparently a masochistic one.

[CalibronXXX]

1184323777[/unixtime]]When you suggest that you should take a policy that is helping a down trodden minority and remove, just because you imagine that it stands in the way of helping anyone else or helping the same people differently, which it rather bleedingly obviously doesn't.

Then you WILL not get the respect from me that I accord to other human beings, because YOU aren't respecting other human beings.

Because you are being a racist.

No not really, if we came up with a functional unified plan that was given the resources of all the unnecessary specialized semi-functional plans, we would almost certainly end up helping more people altogether, which almost certainly means helping more "down trodden minorities". I don't think we should drop the current plans RIGHT NOW!!!, that would be stupid and harmful, but it would be significantly more effective if we worked more on a plan taking advantage of a concerted effort with more resources behind it thusly helping more, probably significantly more, people.

Oh and did I mention you also come across as close-minded and rude? If everyone else just decides they don't want to talk to you anymore it doesn't mean you've "won" the debate.

1184323777[/unixtime]]Apparently a masochistic one.

Wrong again. I eschew needless medications for the later benefits of greater overall health; I don't want to flood my system with unnecessary doses of foreign chemicals sending secondary signals to body and brain that often do minor, and rarely major, harm. A little, very temporary, pain or discomfort is a small price to pay for a healthy body and mind.

[PhoneLobster]

If you intend to maintain the current plans for any concievably practical time period then you intend to keep them for the forseeable future

If you are in favour of a plan for the forseeable future until your magical fix finally completes your grand master plan then saying you are against AA means you are not, in that context a racist.

No declaring your opposition to a plan you are in favour of for the forseeable future means you are an idiot.

One who just so happens to be a very useful fool as far as a white pride propagandist is concerned. Because you are aiding his cause before your own.

[CalibronXXX]

So it is somehow wrong to say that Affirmative Action isn't good enough, we need something better; and that makes me an idiot. And a fool.

Right.

I think I'm altogether done talking to you about non-game related issues.

[PhoneLobster]

So it is somehow wrong to say that Affirmative Action isn't good enough, we need something better; and that makes me an idiot. And a fool.

Yes because you say that in the context of the enemies of the civil rights movement RIGHT NOW being in ascension.

And RIGHT NOW attacking and dismantling affirmative action. Without of course putting anything in its place.

And RIGHT NOW being very thankful of your support because as they perform this unpleasant act, let me remind you again RIGHT NOW, instead of opposing them you stand there and repeat their own vacuous talking points.

[Draco_Argentum]

Lets have a look at what I posted as a solution.

1184312428[/unixtime]]The correct answer is obviously to give everyone who got stuck with a bad school a way into college, regardless of race.

Of course you ignored that and went straight for hurling racist around again. If you could post a single reason why only some poor people should receive a proper education I'm sure you would. You can't but don't want to back down so clearly everyone against you is a racist. Probably a misogynist homophobe too?

Well guess what, I think you're the racist. You're clearly in favour of black only programs. When its suggested that all poor people should have access to a real education you get pissed off and start yelling insults. I have no idea at all what part of equal access to social welfare programs annoys you.

[Catharz]

1184331574[/unixtime]]

So it is somehow wrong to say that Affirmative Action isn't good enough, we need something better; and that makes me an idiot. And a fool.

Yes because you say that in the context of the enemies of the civil rights movement RIGHT NOW being in ascension.

And RIGHT NOW attacking and dismantling affirmative action. Without of course putting anything in its place.

And RIGHT NOW being very thankful of your support because as they perform this unpleasant act, let me remind you again RIGHT NOW, instead of opposing them you stand there and repeat their own vacuous talking points.

I bet he voted for Nader too

[Crissa]

Actually, government support is based off of zip code, not race.

AA as it was applied in choosing government contracts, jobs, and college in California, Washington, and federal was applied as such:

They'd take the top N from each group that reported race until they had an equal number of each to the general population. Then these would be selected or accepted as normal through interview and requirements.

So, say there was a contract, they would take the top hundred bids on it. In that step, they'd doouble-check that the hundred bids included the same number of minority-owned bids.

Or if a job was open, they'd pull applications from a wider pool to make sure that when the interviews started, they had minority applications in the pile.

...At no point were people ever 'protected' or 'pushed ahead' because of minority status. It's not a line. There's literally thousands to choose from with the same chance of success - so why cut it off on some arbitrary number which has been proven to be racist in result?

-Crissa

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I can honestly say I have no problem whatsoever with Affimrative action. At all.

Why? Because our society isn't meritocratic, never has been meritocratic, and never will be meritocratic.

People get jobs all the time because the applicant was old friends with the manager, or went to the same fraternity, or is a firend of a friend, or was recomended by a superior, and whatever. College? Same. You get preferential treatment if your parents or relatives went to that college, you get special treatment depending on which extra-curricular activities you participated in, and such.

Adding another factor in the mix is nothing to be concerned about. In fact, anything that gets people with different backgrounds into good jobs and college educations can only possibly benefit us in the long run.

So, as far as I'm concerned, Affirmative Action is fine by me.

[Draco_Argentum]

1184370340[/unixtime]]Why? Because our society isn't meritocratic, never has been meritocratic, and never will be meritocratic.

I think this is a serious problem with society. Notably all the things you mentioned happen to help the rich the most. Since they're old white males, women and minorities get the shaft harder. But white guys with the wrong parents still lose.

At least the University entrance system here doesn't involve writing an essay. You tick the top five courses you want in. Then a computer starts assigning people to courses based on their grades and the number of spots in the course.

The government also pays your course fees. You have to pay them back through increased tax once your income goes over a certain point.

There are two problems. One, you still have to pay lab fees, text books, student assotiation fees etc. So it can still be too expensive for the poor. Second, your grades are scaled by how well your school does in a standardised test. Your individual mark in this test doesn't count for anything. I know you guys are saying, "Didn't DA suggest bad schools get some form of help, would grade scaling work for that?" Unfortunately its schools that do well that get a boost, so its the exact opposite of helpful.

[Catharz]

1184370340[/unixtime]]College? Same. You get preferential treatment if your parents or relatives went to that college

I just want to call that bullshit. Both my parents are professors at the school I go to, and I've never gotten preferential treatment. The only physics course I've taken there was from a guy I personally know, and I got an F. I've been trying to snag a paying lab job on and off for, no joke, 3 years without success.

Connections that matter in college, as far as I can tell, are the ones which are gained based on merit. Either that or I'm going to the wrong school.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1184373188[/unixtime]]

1184370340[/unixtime]]College? Same. You get preferential treatment if your parents or relatives went to that college

I just want to call that bullshit. Both my parents are professors at the school I go to, and I've never gotten preferential treatment.

How do you know that?

How do you know that the college didn't bypass the whole acceptance thing and just let you in because of your parents?

I'm not talking about grades and shit, I'm talking about getting into college in the first place. What you are talking about is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make, so it will be disregarded.

[Crissa]

Private colleges totally can and do give preference to alums' children.

Maybe your college didn't. Maybe it did and you don't know. Maybe your parents don't donate enough to be on 'the list'. Just because it didn't apply to you doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

-Crissa

[Catharz]

1184375595[/unixtime]]

1184373188[/unixtime]]

1184370340[/unixtime]]College? Same. You get preferential treatment if your parents or relatives went to that college

I just want to call that bullshit. Both my parents are professors at the school I go to, and I've never gotten preferential treatment.

How do you know that?

How do you know that the college didn't bypass the whole acceptance thing and just let you in because of your parents?

I'm not talking about grades and shit, I'm talking about getting into college in the first place. What you are talking about is irrelevant to the point I was trying to make, so it will be disregarded.

The college didn't let me in, due to some shitty grades (a semester of 'F's wreaks havoc on a GPA), and as a result I'm taking classes as a "continuing education" (non-admitted) student.

[Captain_Bleach]

That's why these people can seriously force little girls into months of painful and dangerous unpaid and uncontracted slave labor, forcing them out of school and possibly seriously impacting their growth and health - and still call themselves "Pro-Life" for doing it.

What exactly do you mean by slave labor? Pregnancy? Forgive me if I cannot understand what you are saying.
P.S. I think that I understand now. Being pregnant at such an early age is highly dangerous and hurts the woman physically, as well as giving up education due to the change in lifestyle for 9 months. Yet these politicians are the same people who despise teens being taught about condoms and birth control. It's like they want all these sexually confused teens to crank out babies non-stop, regardless of the consequences. Oh crap, I think that I just discovered the Conservatives' ultimate goal:eek:

[CalibronXXX]

There's always the option of parents actually teaching their kids about life, though that's been out of style for a couple decades.

[Captain_Bleach]

Exactly what about life? The meaning of life, the sanctity of life, what? Forgive my naivety.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

I might be incorrect, but I think he was talking about how human reproduction works.

In theory, that would be the best. In practice, there's a lot of people with odd hang-ups about reproduction that would just pass along to their kids. For example, I was taught by my mother that anything done in the sex act that didn't directly result in an impregnation was inherently sinful, and shouldn't be done.

Ten years later, my mom came out as a lesbian, and I'm assuming had sex a great many times that couldn't have possibly resulted in children. Funny how life works out sometimes. /shrug.

[Count Arioch the 28th]

1184398219[/unixtime]]
The college didn't let me in, due to some shitty grades (a semester of 'F's wreaks havoc on a GPA), and as a result I'm taking classes as a "continuing education" (non-admitted) student.

Huh, that's odd.

It might be different where you live, but in my neck of the woods, if you complete an assoiates degree with a 3.0 GPA or higher, every college in the state is legally required to let you in. And community college is easy to get into around here, you just gotta have the money.

[Maj]

And community college is easy to get into around here, you just gotta have the money.

Here, they also check your pulse.

[Ramnza]

1184433256[/unixtime]]

1184398219[/unixtime]]
The college didn't let me in, due to some shitty grades (a semester of 'F's wreaks havoc on a GPA), and as a result I'm taking classes as a "continuing education" (non-admitted) student.

Huh, that's odd.

It might be different where you live, but in my neck of the woods, if you complete an assoiates degree with a 3.0 GPA or higher, every college in the state is legally required to let you in. And community college is easy to get into around here, you just gotta have the money.

Yeah, but consider that a semester of F's will drop down the GPA so that it isn't anywhere close to a 3.0 GPA. The university I go to puts you on academic warning for a semester if you drop below 2.5 and then you're booted out of the college if you can't bring it up the following semester.

[CalibronXXX]

1184426008[/unixtime]]Exactly what about life? The meaning of life, the sanctity of life, what? Forgive my naivety.

Relationships, consequences of actions, reproduction, responsibility, money, cooking, fixing things; life type stuff. The ancient alternative to letting the TV raise your kids for you.

I also think it's good if the parents try to indoctrinate their kids with some kind of philosophy/theology so that they have some sort of lens to view the world through, some sort of concrete perspective, but you may disagree

[tzor]

1184425348[/unixtime]]P.S. I think that I understand now. Being pregnant at such an early age is highly dangerous and hurts the woman physically, as well as giving up education due to the change in lifestyle for 9 months.

This is a case where I could debate with four or more hands at the same time. (On the one hand, on the other hand, on the third hand, etc.) There are cases where early pregnancy can be damaging to the girl. (Note that there appears to be a large gray area in terms of the defining point between girl and woman and I don't think anyone even remembers that centuries ago the word "girl" was in fact genderless.)

On the other hand, the notion that being pregnant can cause problems in society and educational potential causes me to go outright nuclear. Scarlet letters belong to the dark ages. Using abortions as a way to avoid the fact that there are some serious fucking moral bastards who want to throw heavy burdens on others. It's like saying that if you hide the fact you are gay then you won't be attacked and possibly killed by gay bashers. The solution isn't to hide what isn't a problem in the first place, but to abolish the bigoted laws and to put the bigoted bashers in jail where they belong and where they can't hurt others.

[CalibronXXX]

Okay two things, what in the heck did girl mean back when it didn't indicate gender, and how does having to take time off from school to deliver/take care of a baby morally relate to gay bashing?

[PhoneLobster]

Wait so in your second question are you suggesting which of the two following things is not so bad that it morally equates with the other?

1)Forcing someone to go through a long, painful and life threatening pregnancy and then commit a large portion of the rest of their life to involuntary child care.

2) Being bashed, potentially to death, for being openly gay.

Now not to say Tzor's argument wasn't a bit of a wierd one, and also another one of those horse before the carraige dealios, but still which of those two horrible and potentially fatal fates is minor compared to the other again?