Warriors Can't Win.

[RandomCasualty]

1090381127[/unixtime]]Flying already has its own host of problems, being that it makes about 85% of challenges in standard fantasy obsolete and that pretty much every melee character (including buffed-up clerics and druids) has to either fly or go home.

Yeah, flying is a real problem, because from a design paradigm, you dont' want everyone to fly, not when you've got skills like jump, climb and swim. Flying is something that really needs to be toned down in D&D I think. Sure, it's ok for some stuff to fly, but flying stuff generally shouldn't have missile attacks, and definitely shouldn't be able to cast spells while airborne.

But for stuff like improved invisibility, we could do things like make invisibility a straight-up will save (because it's an illusion) and then give warrior types an ability to make them see through illusions just by looking at them and making the save.

Yeah that could work, I suppose. Though it'd still be a little powerful for a 4th level spell, considering its basically a save or die for a warrior.

The warrior, even the crappy 3.5E one, already beats the shit out of the wizard when you discount stupid spells like polymorph as-written, the problem is getting TO the wizard. Making the warrior immune or highly resistant to standard wizard tactics and defenses goes a long way towards making the wizard the bitch of an angry warrior, which is what we all want.

Yeah. The problem is you've got so many wizard tactics out there. We haven't even gotten to walls, forcecages, ethereal travel and teleport.

[Lago_AM3P]

That's why I proposed feat blocks.

1/7th of your character shouldn't be something stupid-ass like dodge or mobility. When you spend a feat, you should get like spring attack, a +10 bonus to your movement speed with +5 speed per 4 character levels, the ability to take any move equivalent action without drawing an attack of opportunity, the current run feat, and skill focus: tumble, jump, climb, and swim all at once.

That'd go a long way towards balancing fighters. Even if wizards got nerfed down to the fighter's level, I would not be happy with the game.

Even when balanced against THEMSELVES, fighter-types absolutely suck. There's no reason at all two 8th level barbarians are almost exactly the same while two 8th level wizards can be vastly different in character schtick. There's no earthly reason at all you should have to play so many game sessions before you even get a noticable amount of diversity from every other goddamn player who plays the same class as you.

Ever notice why a party with two fighter-types feels redudant, but two magic-users, even of the same class, does not?


If warriors got a lot of abilities to not only counter this bullshit but also fling some poo of their own, then the fact that wizards got forcecages and teleport and scrying and shit won't even matter. But nerfing the people who actually get identifable character schticks is not the way to go. Giving abilities to the poor virtual-NPC classes is.

[RandomCasualty]

1090383159[/unixtime]]

Even when balanced against THEMSELVES, fighter-types absolutely suck. There's no reason at all two 8th level barbarians are almost exactly the same while two 8th level wizards can be vastly different in character schtick. There's no earthly reason at all you should have to play so many game sessions before you even get a noticable amount of diversity from every other goddamn player who plays the same class as you.

Well the barbarian really shouldn't exist. Barbarian rage and uncanny dodge should just be feats, and the fighter should have the option of taking them. The barbarian concept as a whole is damn singleminded, it's no surprise they all seem alike.

The typical fighter though can do a lot with their feats. They can be an archer, a cavalier, a greatswordsman, a manuever guy, a reach weapon user, and so on. Now out of combat the fighter needs some definite help, there's no doubt about that, but in combat, you've got quite a few options.

If warriors got a lot of abilities to not only counter this bullshit but also fling some poo of their own, then the fact that wizards got forcecages and teleport and scrying and shit won't even matter. But nerfing the people who actually get identifable character schticks is not the way to go. Giving abilities to the poor virtual-NPC classes is.

Well, unfortunately yeah it is. Because you just can't give a fighter soemthing comparable to a forcecage. At least not as long as you want to run on the paradigm that fighters can actually beat wizards. If we want fighters to be able to beat wizards, then no-save-if-you-cant-teleport-you're-fvcked spells just can't exist.

Sure I mean you could start handing out teleportation to fighters and all, but whats the point? That just proves to kill off pretty much every fighter concept out there, and replace it with some weird superman wannabe. I mean I don't know about you, but I really don't want my fighters to be teleporting or flying naturally. I don't want to play Goku, I want to play Launcelot or Conan.

The only answer is making it so the spell effect just isn't that powerful. So I can leap out the forcecage the last second when its forming or some other means of escape.

[Username17]

As written Invisibility is a glamer, and that means that anyone interacting with it gets a Will Save to see through it. Really, that's what it says.

As such, I see no reason for the Invisibility/Improved Invisibility paradigm. We could just actually use the Glamer rules for Invisibility and make Invisbility function otherwise like Improved Invisibility. Becoming visible when you attack is a legacy mechanic from back before we had Will Saves or Listen checks, and we don't need it.

If the Warriors of the world had really good Will saves and Listen checks, invisible people would be their bitch - they'd hear them coming, make an attack at the location, get a will save, and see the guy.

Flying is already the bitch of archery (if you are on the gorund and your opponent is in the air, you both fight with your archery attacks - and you can take cover behind ground objects and he can't), so we just have to make sure that warriors actually have bows that they are pretty good with. That means that warrior types should be getting ranged bonuses simultaneously to getting their melee bonuses, and then all is well.

-Username17

[User3]

I've always thought that creatures with no ranged attack should never get higher than CR 5 or 6, the point where flying becomes available. Add all the HD to a giant scorpian that you want, and unless you lock the characters in a featureless antimagic box, the players are going to attack with their ranged attacks from cover or possibly while flying or from behind magic walls, and totally school the monster.

I was looking at a feat list on this web site, and several things came to mind:

1. One thing that i think would totally give fighters a powerup would be to look over the feats, and remove any definate level restriction in the feat. The more powerful feats are already in chains, so that keeps them generally in the place where they belong, so they don't need the "absolute" level restrictions like a min. skill or BAB. If a human Fighter could start his career with Elusive Target or a shtick like Hurling Charge or Raptor school, or something cool like Mage Slayer(causes enemy spellcasters to provoke AoOs when casting defensively).

With stuff like that, he actually might be good and/or more fun to play.

2. The warrior really is a whore to stats. Really. He needs the best armor, the best weapons, and to blow feats on Weapon Focus or Specialization or Dodge. He needs every little +1 he can get from any source just to consistantly hit and do decent damage on a brawler monster of his CR. I ran the numbers on RC's warrior guy and a Fire Giant, and the Giant totally schools this guy.

Basically, all of those "+ small bonus and no other ability" feats need to go, and all the monsters need to be Dropped by like 5-6 (or more) AC. Its not like spellcasters weren't hitting with those touch attacks anyway. Basically, the warriors are getting boned by stat inflation.

3. No save spells need to go, and be replaced by partial saves. I don't mind if a Forcecage reduces a warrior to a 5' move for a round if he saves and he's trapped on a failed save. Instant death effects need to be reduced to just do damage and a special effect if killed, like the new Disintigrate. The fighters can't have a Keen Vorpal Sword that takes heads on 1 out of 3 hits, the wizards and clerics can't have (easy) insta-death effects.

Warriors also need better saves overall, and fighters need 2 more skill points per level and Spot and Listen as class skills.

Polymorph needs bigger penalties to use, and feats like "and now you can cast all your spells and benefit from your buffs" need to be removed. I vote for a "and now you are a monster spawn" and some kind of spellcaster limit on the number of available forms like the Summon spells.

[RandomCasualty]

1090430007[/unixtime]]I've always thought that creatures with no ranged attack should never get higher than CR 5 or 6, the point where flying becomes available. Add all the HD to a giant scorpian that you want, and unless you lock the characters in a featureless antimagic box, the players are going to attack with their ranged attacks from cover or possibly while flying or from behind magic walls, and totally school the monster.

The problem is that I dunno if you can really do that. Because when you've got a monster like the collossal scorpion, it's either a TPK or an easy win. It's no longer really even a monster, and you don't even deserve much XP for flying over it, because there's no risk at all.

1. One thing that i think would totally give fighters a powerup would be to look over the feats, and remove any definate level restriction in the feat. The more powerful feats are already in chains, so that keeps them generally in the place where they belong, so they don't need the "absolute" level restrictions like a min. skill or BAB. If a human Fighter could start his career with Elusive Target or a shtick like Hurling Charge or Raptor school, or something cool like Mage Slayer(causes enemy spellcasters to provoke AoOs when casting defensively).

I don't think you really need to do that. feat chains also kinda help the fighter in many ways, because they don't let others get some of the more advanced feats. So long as each feat is good along the chain, I don't really see any problem with feat chains.

Basically, all of those "+ small bonus and no other ability" feats need to go, and all the monsters need to be Dropped by like 5-6 (or more) AC. Its not like spellcasters weren't hitting with those touch attacks anyway. Basically, the warriors are getting boned by stat inflation.

Weird, I'd actually go the other way, don't drop AC, but drop attack bonuses. Monster AC seems really low enough for me, dropping it further just makes them near automatic hits by everyone. But certain creatures, especially high strength stuff tends to be overpowered in terms of attack bonuses. It's ok to have those huge bonuses to damage, but having the bonus to hit as well is what screws the system.

3. No save spells need to go, and be replaced by partial saves. I don't mind if a Forcecage reduces a warrior to a 5' move for a round if he saves and he's trapped on a failed save. Instant death effects need to be reduced to just do damage and a special effect if killed, like the new Disintigrate. The fighters can't have a Keen Vorpal Sword that takes heads on 1 out of 3 hits, the wizards and clerics can't have (easy) insta-death effects.

Partial saves definintely need to be added, and I think monster saves need a general boost in terms of effectiveness.

Wizard spells IMO should have some kind of DC modifiers. Like a +2 to spell DC if the spell is a debuff or a direct damage, and a -2 to DC if it's a save or die. Under the current system you're always better off casting save or dies, and that sucks. I'd like to see people encouraged to cast stuff like bestow curse and slow.

Warriors also need better saves overall, and fighters need 2 more skill points per level and Spot and Listen as class skills.

I'd say give them diplomacy, bluff, tumble and sense motive too. Often times the warrior type is the party 'face' in fantasy stories, so the rules should reflect that.

Polymorph needs bigger penalties to use, and feats like "and now you can cast all your spells and benefit from your buffs" need to be removed. I vote for a "and now you are a monster spawn" and some kind of spellcaster limit on the number of available forms like the Summon spells.

Yeah, buffs in general need to be toned down. I'm for the "one (possibly two) buff active at a time" rule. Any buffs beyond the limit are automatically dispelled when the new one comes into effect. As for polymorph, it has to be separated into a "make the wizard competetive" spell and a "buff the fighter" spell, and those need drastically different mechanics.