We no longer live in a Free country:

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power_word_wedgie
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by power_word_wedgie »

Just a couple of points:

1) As I said earlier, I actually went to college at Arizona State University for about five years. No one wants to live on campus (the dorms are overpriced and suck massively) and the only decent affordable housing is pretty far away from campus. Thus, commuting is routinely practiced by most students. (Note, I fully believe the working class in Phoenix that don't drive in Phoenix would be around 20%, but if you can afford to go to ASU, then affording a car is no big deal) Now, if you can find a student that has the same schedule, then you can car pool, otherwise it sucks. And public transportation in Phoenix sucks big time. Even if you take it, some neighborhoods in Phoenix I wouldn't even send my worst enemy into. And since Phoenix is a city, or group of cities, sprawled over a large area, so the moral of the story is that you really need a car in Phoenix.

1) Now, as to Crissa's link, I got this gem from it:

From 5,000 voters registered in six weeks before the 2004 presidential race, the ASU Young Democrats' post-Proposition 200 registration drive has produced little more than 200 new voters in a year and a half.


Come on! It's an off-year election: of course you're going to have much less voters that are interested in it versus the Presidential election years. Hey, my wife didn't vote in this last election - and she is a Republican with a picture ID. How the heck did the Democrat's "nefarious plan" do that?

On the other hand, it does a great job of solving the problem of too many people voting for those pesky Democrats.


Well, the thing is that it was a proposition; it wasn't a law passed by a Republican controlled statehouse or anything like that. People down there are more concerned about illegal aliens than anything else. And, just like fbmf and Zherog, I had to show my driver's license here in lovely Indiana last Tuesday in order to vote. It's a comspiracy in Arizona ... except it's pretty much widespread across the country ...
Amethyst_Butterfly
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

I hear people mention from time to time, including in one of the linked articles, how requiring you to show your ID is somehow discriminating against minorities, etc.

How? I fail to see how it discriminates against anyone, since everyone has an ID, and if they somehow/for some weird reason do not have an ID, all they have to do is go get one.. its not complicated.

You have to have an ID for just about everything, including cashing checks, writing checks, buying alcohol, getting a job, even getting a library card.

So what is so special and different about voting that some people think we should not have to use our ID for something as important as voting, when we have to use it for something as trivial as a library card? Nobody is denying them the ability to get said ID, and I have never met or heard of someone that didn't have one.
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Maj
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Maj »

Ame wrote:I hear people mention from time to time, including in one of the linked articles, how requiring you to show your ID is somehow discriminating against minorities, etc.

How? I fail to see how it discriminates against anyone, since everyone has an ID, and if they somehow/for some weird reason do not have an ID, all they have to do is go get one.. its not complicated.


It's not free to get ID. If I recall the problem correctly, in the Constitution, it lays out that there shall be nothing to impinge upon the ability to vote. I don't know about your state, but in Washington, it costs about $17 to get a copy of your birth certificate. A non-driver's license, state-issued photo ID costs $25. I have library cards for two different libraries and neither time was I required to show ID.

My son makes me laugh. Maybe he'll make you laugh, too.
Amethyst_Butterfly
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

Well, its incredibly cheap.... Here is 12 for a copy if you have lost your birth certificate, and i think about 12 for a license as well. ID im not sure, but probably about the same.

It costs them money to take the picture, make the ID and employ the workers, so if it wasnt us paying for it right there, they would still make us pay via taxes.

And, I am rather surprised that you didnt have to show ID at the library... the ones here you actually not only have to show ID, but I believe we had to bring two pieces of mail to verify address as well.

All that aside, you still need an ID for many things other than voting, so its rather nil. You can't get a job, cash a check, write a check, etc without one. Its a necessary item that all adults have/should have, and as such, i still fail to see the problem
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fbmf
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by fbmf »

To get a library card here, you do have to show ID.

And the fact that there is a cost associated with obtaining an ID does not discriminate against minorities, it discriminates against folks of low socio-economic status. That means poor white male heterosexuals get the shaft, if you believe there is a shaft, in this case also.

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Neeek
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Neeek »

Any cost to vote is a clear violation of the 24th Amendment, just so you know. It's the no poll tax one. If the IDs are free, then that's one thing. But I'm not aware of any state that will give you a photo ID for free (which is not to say there isn't on, just none I'm aware of).
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Crissa
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Crissa »

Another reason the language and ID rules violate minorities is because they get called on it disproportionately, not just because many are poor.

It's one thing to always get ID'd because you look young, it's another to always have to pull out your papers because you're brown.

Google 'Driving while Brown' or 'Driving while Black' for examples that have been recorded and verfied.

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Amethyst_Butterfly
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

So we are supposed to be given for free, something that costs them to make? And you honestly think that would not get added into our taxes?
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Crissa
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Crissa »

Amethyst_Butterfly at [unixtime wrote:1163383600[/unixtime]]So we are supposed to be given for free, something that costs them to make? And you honestly think that would not get added into our taxes?

Do you not understand the purpose of a government and taxes?

-Crissa
Neeek
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Neeek »

Amethyst_Butterfly at [unixtime wrote:1163383600[/unixtime]]So we are supposed to be given for free, something that costs them to make? And you honestly think that would not get added into our taxes?


You are if you want to require it to vote. And the ballot you used to vote was paid for by our taxes. I fail to see a significant difference.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by User3 »

1. ID does not invalidate the 24th Amendment.
2. The government is actually taxing us by making us pay for the materialsto register us. It _is_ a tax. Per service. That's rather fair.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

Yall are still ignoring that it is an item that every american, and quite a few non-americans, have. It is extremely rare to not have it because you NEED it for so many things in day to day life. It is not unreasonable to assume that one would have the required documentation.

If one is too lazy and apathetic to bother... well, thats their problem
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Neeek »

Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1163386938[/unixtime]]1. ID does not invalidate the 24th Amendment.


It does if the ID costs you anything. This isn't a question. It was decided by SCOTUS in 1965.

"For federal elections, the poll tax is abolished absolutely as a prerequisite to voting, and no equivalent or milder substitute may be imposed. Any material requirement imposed upon the federal voter solely because of his refusal to waive the constitutional immunity subverts the effectiveness of the U.S. Const. amend. 24 and must fall under its ban."
Harman v. Forssenius, 380 U.S. 528 (U.S. 1965)
RandomCasualty
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by RandomCasualty »

Yeah, I don't see the issue at all.

Requiring ID is a good thing for voting, because it can prevent elections from being rigged easier. I mean imagine if you know that John Smith never votes, so you get a friend to go in and claim that he's JOhn Smith. Nobody would be the wiser if they never checked ID. You could start voting groups that drive around from district to district doing that and cheaply pick up a good number of free votes.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Zherog »

Neeek at [unixtime wrote:1163404131[/unixtime]]
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1163386938[/unixtime]]1. ID does not invalidate the 24th Amendment.


It does if the ID costs you anything. This isn't a question. It was decided by SCOTUS in 1965.


Good thing they can use their voter registration card and a utility bill then, huh? Showing a state-issued photo ID wasn't the only option.

Ame wrote:Yall are still ignoring that it is an item that every american, and quite a few non-americans, have.


I know several people who don't have a driver's license.
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Zherog
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Zherog »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1163419825[/unixtime]]Yeah, I don't see the issue at all.

Requiring ID is a good thing for voting, because it can prevent elections from being rigged easier. I mean imagine if you know that John Smith never votes, so you get a friend to go in and claim that he's JOhn Smith. Nobody would be the wiser if they never checked ID. You could start voting groups that drive around from district to district doing that and cheaply pick up a good number of free votes.


Sounds like voting in Chicago - "Vote early, vote often"

:D
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

Zherog at [unixtime wrote:1163432409[/unixtime]]
Neeek at [unixtime wrote:1163404131[/unixtime]]
Guest (Unregistered) at [unixtime wrote:1163386938[/unixtime]]1. ID does not invalidate the 24th Amendment.


It does if the ID costs you anything. This isn't a question. It was decided by SCOTUS in 1965.


Good thing they can use their voter registration card and a utility bill then, huh? Showing a state-issued photo ID wasn't the only option.

Ame wrote:Yall are still ignoring that it is an item that every american, and quite a few non-americans, have.


I know several people who don't have a driver's license.


Probably, but i wasnt speaking on licenses, I was speaking on ID's. Anyone that does not have a license (which there are many) has an ID card. I'd be truly surprised if there was anyone that didn't, and would like to know how on earth they get by without one
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Tokorona »

.. Neeek. That's for a poll tax. And as it's free to work around getting an ID, that is much like arguing X Is invalid because of y although you can bypass y.

(Secondly, the tax is on the service of a driver's license. NOt to vote.)

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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Zherog »

Ame wrote:Probably, but i wasnt speaking on licenses, I was speaking on ID's. Anyone that does not have a license (which there are many) has an ID card. I'd be truly surprised if there was anyone that didn't, and would like to know how on earth they get by without one


I guess you need to define what you mean by "ID Card." If you're talking about a state-issued non-driver's license (or whatever it's called in Virginia), then yes - I know people without those.

If you're allowing for a student ID from a college or an ID from an employer to count (even though those wouldn't meet the criteria for the Arizona law), then my list does indeed dwindle to zero people.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

I mean a Real ID card... the kind you need to get a job, write a check, cash a check, open a bank account, buy alcohol, among other things. Its like a license but not, its just an ID card.

If you do in fact know people that survive without, do tell how they go on with their day-to-day lives without proper identification, because I can't figure it out
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Zherog
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Zherog »

Alright, so you're talking about the PA-equivalent of either a driver's license or non-driver's ID. It's a state-issued photo ID.

My best friend's sister didn't have one until she was 23 or 24. She lived at home with her parents, and had the same bank account since she was a kid (which means a social security card was all she needed, along with her parents names). You can get by with other forms of ID when you fill out your forms at work that say you're a US citizen (social security card is definitely on the list; not sure what else is). She doesn't drink, so buying alcohol is a non-issue. Direct deposit handles the "cashing a check" requirement when it comes to your pay check, and an ATM card allows you to withdrawl the money. She had a visa card from the same bank she had her account with, so there was no ID needed to get the card. When she purchased anything, she either used her visa or cash.

I have another friend who most definitely does not have a driver's license. I don't know whether or not she has a non-driver's ID.

But I don't think it's impossible at all to get along without a state-issued ID.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

I suppose one can get lucky, and use a bunch of roundabout ways of doing things, but your best friends sister is definitely not the norm
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Zherog »

I never said she was the norm. I just said I knew somebody who didn't have a state issued ID until she was 22 or 23.
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Amethyst_Butterfly »

technicalities!

that really does throw me for a loop tho, that not only did she not get her license, but no ID! That entire concept is foreign to me, lol. I dont think i even know anyone without a license, although i do know they exist
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Crissa
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Re: We no longer live in a Free country:

Post by Crissa »

Amethyst_Butterfly at [unixtime wrote:1163473543[/unixtime]]that really does throw me for a loop tho, that not only did she not get her license, but no ID! That entire concept is foreign to me, lol. I dont think i even know anyone without a license, although i do know they exist

And that's the problem.

There's a whole world out there that's foreign to you, and expecting that other people have your innate advantages (so innate that you don't even know they exist!) is a bit of the problem.

-Crissa
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