We no longer live in a Free country:

[Crissa]

The Bush administration has told a federal judge that terrorism suspects held in secret CIA prisons should not be allowed to reveal details of the "alternative interrogation methods" that their captors used to get them to talk.

Secret CIA prisons. Prisoners not allowed to see their lawyers. Lawyers not allowed to see the evidence against their clients.

...And courts not allowed to determine if these prisoners are US citizens or not.

Never before in the history of the US - not even under John Adams - did the rule of law not apply to everyone, foreign and domestic.

-Crissa

[User3]

Never before in the history of the US - not even under John Adams - did the rule of law not apply to everyone, foreign and domestic.

Uh, yeah. That's not true.

[Tokorona]

WWII leaps to mind, yeah.

[Crissa]

In WWII, German-American spies and sympathizers were treated with due process in our courts.

A thousands of Japanese-Americans were interred, their property disposed of; yet did not lose their right to participate in our courts.

When did we jail and torture without due process, without haebeus corpus, without giving the same rights to everyone, foreign and domestic?

-Crissa

[Zherog]

Lincoln suspended habeas corpus during parts of the Civil War.

[Crissa]

Here's another thing:

Give us your poor, your tired, your students and your native americans: Just don't let them vote.

-Crissa

[User3]

Does it actually matter which laws or freedoms were denied to certain members of society?

Let's face it, the idea of the law being applied equally to everyone (without cognitive dissonance or forgetting that there are non-white people in this country) is barely more than 40 years old.

I'm not saying that it's wrong not to be concerned. I'm just saying that this is par for the course.

Fucking Puritan freedom-haters. Why did we have to get our founding morals from these hypocrites? If only some other more-sane group got here before 1620... maybe some Satanists. They at least have rigour. Oh, well.

[Sir Neil]

"I've encountered hundreds of students," he reports, "and I don't know a single one who has decided to get a state ID."

So they don't issue driver's licenses in Arizona? What an amazing thing.

Back when I was in high school, almost nobody came to school on their 16th birthday, because they were at the DMV getting a state-issued picture ID that is practically requrired in Alabama, because you have to cross the Mason-Dixon line to find effective mass transit.

[Zherog]

1162880716[/unixtime]]Here's another thing:

Give us your poor, your tired, your students and your native americans: Just don't let them vote.

-Crissa

I've always had to show picture ID before I was allowed to vote. I'm pretty sure they don't check the address, though - just the name and picture (and sometimes compare the signature on my driver's license to the one when I sign in to vote).

[Crissa]

So they don't issue driver's licenses in Arizona?

I believe you have to buy them, as well as prove you are a resident, US citizen, and are who you say you are... Doesn't sound like much, but your previous DL might not even cut it as a third the requirement.

And if you live in a city as a student, you probably don't drive yet (even in Arizona) and if you live on a reservation, you won't have a birth certificate and you certainly won't have a place to buy an ID within a hundred miles. And you probably don't have a car.

What, are we back to only landowners, car owners get to vote?

-Crissa

[Zherog]

>>LINKY<<

All voters must now present identification in Arizona
In order to vote in a city, county or state election in Arizona, the voter must present:
(a) one form of appropriate identification bearing the name, address and photograph of the voter
OR
(b) two different forms of identification that bear the name and address of the person appearing to vote

What qualifies as an acceptable form of photo ID?
The following government issued IDs are acceptable, if they also include the name and address of the person presenting themselves at a polling place:

* Valid Arizona driver license or non-operating identification
* Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification
* Valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification

What other kinds of documents are acceptable as ID for voting purposes?
In lieu of one of the photo IDs listed above, a person who wishes to vote may bring any two different items from the list below to the polling place, as long as those items have the person's name and address on them.

* Utility bill dated within 90 days of the date of the election. A utility bill may be for electric, gas, water, solid waste, sewer, telephone, cellular phone, or cable television
* Bank or credit union statement that is dated within 90 days of the date of the election
* Valid Arizona Vehicle Registration
* Indian census card
* Property tax statement of the person's residence
* Tribal enrollment card or other form of tribal identification
* Vehicle insurance card
* Valid United States federal, state, or local government issued identification
* Voter Registration Card / Recorder's Certification
* Any "Official Election Material" mailing bearing your name and address

Wow! Looks like Native Americans can actually vote afterall, and they don't even need to be able to drive to do it. Go figure.



edit: more good stuff from that link:

If you go to vote without acceptable ID as indicated above, you won't be turned away but you will be given a provisional ballot. That means that you have 5 days days after a Federal General election and three (3) days after any other election to provide the correct identification or your ballot will not count.
...
# f the ID you present has an address that doesn't match the one on file with the election officials, you will be given a provisional ballot, but in this case you don't have to return with different documents. Election officials will verify the ballot after the fact.
# Printing online statements from utilities is acceptable, as long as they meet the criteria for acceptable ID.
# Photocopies of statements issued in the names of two people are acceptable, like bank statements or phone bills.
# A person's name will be considered as matching the election department's records if it is reasonably close. If I present a current bank statement and a current phone bill with my address and the name Judy Hedding, that will be acceptable if the name on the election register appears as Judith Hedding.

So, yeah - I really can't see a problem.

[power_word_wedgie]

1162933854[/unixtime]]

So they don't issue driver's licenses in Arizona?

And if you live in a city as a student, you probably don't drive yet (even in Arizona) and if you live on a reservation, you won't have a birth certificate and you certainly won't have a place to buy an ID within a hundred miles. And you probably don't have a car.

What, are we back to only landowners, car owners get to vote?

-Crissa

Actually, I'm a god damn Sun Devil (Class of 1992 ... SHOW ME THE MONEY!!!! ) so I can speak to much of this. In all honestly, ASU could hardly be mixed up for the set of Les Miserables. Most students drive since (a) on-campus housing sucks and (b) Phoenix is a sprawling city with extremely limited public transportation. You need a car to live in Phoenix/Tempe/Mesa. Furthermore, the students that went to school there were hardly the kind that came from struggling families: we got pretty good reputation as a party school so we had a heavy influx of people from the Northeast going to school there. Finally, most did what I did when I moved from California to there: spent a year to get in-state residency and thus get a break on tuition. (Trust me, the difference between in-state tuition and out-of-state tuition is much greater than the cost for a driver's license)

[Sir Neil]

I believe you have to buy them...

Yeah, I seem to remember that. I thought they issued picture ID cards for free, though. It's been a while.

[Zherog]

Of course, you don't even need the picture ID - so it doesn't matter if they charge or not.

[Crissa]

Funny, Zherog, I'm sure every one of those poll workers really needed a page-long explaination of what might and might not work as identification.

And pray tell, what was the point of this identification check, if not to discourage voters from registering and voting? Why can't they just show their registration card?

Dirty tricks and voter intimidation... These aren't serious issues?

...And, by the way, only five thousand Phoenix students registered to vote in since the law change, down from 20,000 in the previous time period. And... At least 20% of working people in Phoenix don't drive; so 'everyone drives' is quite a fallacy. While I don't have firm numbers on students, it's usually around 50-60% for even a large suburban campus.

Haven't you ever heard of carpooling, busses... Heck, I went to university in Prescott and still only two in ten had a car. Not a large urban center with many sources of transportation!

-Crissa

[Zherog]

1163008001[/unixtime]]And pray tell, what was the point of this identification check, if not to discourage voters from registering and voting? Why can't they just show their registration card?

Perhaps you should go look at the list again, Crissa. You can show your voter registration card as one of the two forms of non-picture ID.

Really, I still don't see the big deal about requiring ID to vote. With the exception of the four years during college when I submitted an absentee ballot, I've had to produce ID at every election.

I'm really not seeing how the law in Arizona is a burden on indians and poor people. Those who live on reservations can bring their voter registration card and tribal membership card, and they're set. Poor people can bring their voter registration card and a utility bill and they're set.

[fbmf]

I've always had to show ID when I voted. What's the big deal?

Game On,
fbmf

[Crissa]

1163009286[/unixtime]]Perhaps you should go look at the list again, Crissa. You can show your voter registration card as one of the two forms of non-picture ID.

Perhaps you should go look again and note that two from that list are required to 'prove' your identity.

And where would you be if you walked up and the polling person said 'no' to your couple pieces of paper? They're just volunteers. There's people with guns trying to get people to not vote; what's it to you if some volunteer doesn't real the list and turns people away?

It's discouraging voters who don't have time to read a list of things (which has changed several times over this last year, including in the last week!). They don't register, they don't vote.

The Georgia law required a state ID, and didn't allow non-pipcture identification - even though they have entire counties where it's not possible to get a state-issued ID from!

Do you, or do you not see that this has discouraged voters, who may have well had more than a few of the forms of identification on the list?

-Crissa

[Zherog]

1163015842[/unixtime]] Do you, or do you not see that this has discouraged voters, who may have well had more than a few of the forms of identification on the list?

-Crissa

I think it's much ado about nothing. You're so interested in bitching and moaning about something that you seem to think is an injustice that you refuse to look at what the rules are actually saying.

Again - for 18 years, I've had to show ID to vote. Note my voter registration card - actual ID. I use my driver's license, and everything is peachy keen. I imagine PA has contingencies for people who don't have either a DL or a non-DL ID. What's the big frickin' deal?

[Zherog]

Also, from the link I posted above:

If you go to vote without acceptable ID as indicated above, you won't be turned away but you will be given a provisional ballot. That means that you have 5 days days after a Federal General election and three (3) days after any other election to provide the correct identification or your ballot will not count.

So, at least in Arizona, nobody is being denied the right to vote. If you forget your ID, you still get to vote then and there and are given 5 days to show your ID. So nobody should be "turned away" in Arizona.

Again, I think you're more interested in having something to bitch and moan about than you are in actually reading facts.

[fbmf]

[TGFBS]
Let's tone down the nastiness a notch, please.
[/TGFBS]

[Crissa]

"If you know your rights, they won't be removed from you."

"If you don't... Tough luck?"

-Crissa

[Neeek]

It's a completely unnecessary law. We don't have massive vote fraud here, and all I had to do to vote was walk up. state my name, and sign next to it. No ID or anything else.

Additional impediments really are someone's attempt to discourage voting, and claiming otherwise is a bit naive.

[Zherog]

I continue to fail to see how requiring ID is bad; perhaps because I've been doing it for 18 years.

[Crissa]

15,000 less students registered to vote.

That's edumacated college students.

There was no evidence that any of the previous students were fraudulent registrations.

...Isn't that discouraging voting, Zherog?

-Crissa