Runic Knight

[JonSetanta]

Talisman: I'm in the "Healing Ain't Broken" party, sorry.

Why?

1k gold gets any divine caster with Cure Minor Wounds on their spell list an item that heals 1 hp per round as a standard action.
Seems weak, but yes.. anyone can use it.
Give to some town squire you pay mere coppers a day to tag along with your group outside of battle (they stay with the mounts and stuff) and you have yourself an infinite 'heal your whole party' resource.
Hell, do it yourself, even.

2k gold gets you the same unlimited item but with Cure Light Wounds.

It's really not broken for class abilities to do this, and I even get pissed when new GMs start to sweat as they ponder ways to nerf such things.
Seriously, just have every NPC enemy and monster with at least 1k gold in pocket walk around with a little ring or stone or necklace or rubber ducky that heals 1 hp per standard action, and suddenly the fact that the PCs are doing it becomes a ridiculous non-issue.

[Talisman]

I never said it was *broken.* I said it was *deceptively powerful,* and I stand by that statement. The numbers support this.
But I'm done debating it, since I'm obviously a minority of 1 here.

[JonSetanta]

Aw cmon dude, the majority is for Unlimited Heal Is Broken. You just happen to be in a place where the opposite is true.
Over on The Wiz for instance any statement about the Cure wand cheese is met with rants, flames, and forum-equivalent of ear plugging.

[NoDot]

Sigma, I think your numbers are a little off. It would be 900gp for a Command Word Cure Minor Wounds. A Ring of Continuous Cure Minor Wounds (aka, Ring of Fast Healing 1) is 1,000gp.

[JonSetanta]

How so, NoDot?
Show me your process please.


edit: and not "command word", I mean just "activated". It's more expensive but can be used while gagged, Silence'd, in high winds, deafened, bombarded by sucky Bard music, etc.

[Username17]

"Use Activated" spells with a duration are always on. Many people interpret that as allowing instantaneous spells to go off every turn or even every attack, but that generally does not happen.

If you want by-the-book Fast Healing 1, you're going to have to spend 2000 gold and get a druid to pop lesser vigor into a belt. The 30k you'd spend for fast healing 2 is obviously not worth it.

-Username17

[JonSetanta]

OK, but assuming I have the SRD open right now looking at the PHB spell list, Lesser Vigor isn't there. It might as well be made up on the spot, from my perspective. I don't even know what splat it's from, so that doesn't help.
However, it is strange that items such as a simple ring of healing would cost so much more for even less of a benefit.
The designers must have been running on their own fallacy about encounters vs. resources, where HP is apparently worth thousands of gold apiece.
And then they went and put Rope Trick in 3.x. Go figure.

Don't forget that, if Lesser Vigor has a duration (I assume it does, since it grants Fast Heal), the price is multiplied depending on the 'intensity' of duration. For instance, a per-round spell is x4 price, probably because many 1 round / level spells are more powerful.
So, this Pocky Stick of Unlimited Lesser Vigor would be Caster Level 1 x Spell Level 1(?) x 2000 x 4, no?

[Leress]

Updated

• 
  
• Added higher level abilities
  
• Changed spell casting
  

Still need to add spells.

[Bigode]

Great (adding final levels). But I fail to see any single change to the spellcasting method. I plan to run the Same Game Tests for the RK (complete with German names ), but could you, for the sake of whatever you happen to believe in, order the abilities by level, or start their write-ups by mentioning acquisition levels? I REALLY HATE referring to tables (my classes don't even have any) ...

[Leress]

1203019145[/unixtime]]Great (adding final levels). But I fail to see any single change to the spellcasting method. I plan to run the Same Game Tests for the RK (complete with German names ), but could you, for the sake of whatever you happen to believe in, order the abilities by level, or start their write-ups by mentioning acquisition levels? I REALLY HATE referring to tables (my classes don't even have any) ...

A first the class casted like a socerer, now it cast like a beguiler. I was going to re-organize it after it was finalized (since I haven't finished the spell list yet)

I will do it now since you are testing it, and thanks.

EDIT: Now it is organized.

[JonSetanta]

Don't forget to bold those class basics labels!

Spell list seems mostly befitting of a warrior/caster. I've run into similar problems with the Weaponsoul, in deciding what's warrior-appropriate or not, by both archetype and necessity of function.
It's new territory, really.
Warblade, Crusader, and Swordsage are pioneers, but they didn't go all the way...

[Leress]

Runic Knight

Well I put it on WOTC...let the insanity ensue.


Bigode, kick the class's ass and beat it to an inch of its life.

[JonSetanta]

For the WOTC board, it's not much to draw out the flames about being 'overpowered'.. but some comments on your Runic Knight here (both Frank and not by Frank) about the issue of HP and SP, among other things, don't seem to be made with the 'lower common denominator' for settings in mind.

The option comes down to: is Runic Knight a Tome class or not? If it is, by all means leave it. The interclass balance of Tome series holds full spellcasters as the epitome, to which all non-casters or half-casters will never reach.
If it's not a Tome class, the core HD basics need to be limited.

Just sayin... when you see my comment on your WOTC post of Runic Knight, please don't take it personally!
I like the class you've made but sometimes the level of power in Tome series goes to far, which is fine for Tome but not everyone plays Tome.

[Leress]

1203733055[/unixtime]]For the WOTC board, it's not much to draw out the flames about being 'overpowered'.. but some comments on your Runic Knight here (both Frank and not by Frank) about the issue of HP and SP, among other things, don't seem to be made with the 'lower common denominator' for settings in mind.

Probably since I don't know what the "lowest common denominator" is suppose to be.

The option comes down to: is Runic Knight a Tome class or not? If it is, by all means leave it. The interclass balance of Tome series holds full spellcasters as the epitome, to which all non-casters or half-casters will never reach.
If it's not a Tome class, the core HD basics need to be limited.

The one here is the Tome version, the one on WOTC is the WOTC version.

Just sayin... when you see my comment on your WOTC post of Runic Knight, please don't take it personally!
I like the class you've made but sometimes the level of power in Tome series goes to far, which is fine for Tome but not everyone plays Tome.

I don't personally, you are the only one that actually gave a critique of the class so far. This is just a class, not my child or something else equally important.

Also, I bloody called it, I know that I would get just blanket statements without and details.

[JonSetanta]

I meant the lowest denominator in reference to a method of interclass balance that most gamers use.
If you use Tome by comparison exclusively, you're distancing the class from viability within nearly all other settings.

Although, the only issue I see is with the large HP, SP, and gigantic variety of class abilities. Cut down one of those three areas and it should be better for most audiences IMHO. (and I mean only for the WOTC version; for Tome games, this version is fine)

And pardons, I've only read this version here so far, assumed it was the same. I'll get back to you after comparing both.

[Leress]

1203801638[/unixtime]]I meant the lowest denominator in reference to a method of interclass balance that most gamers use.
If you use Tome by comparison exclusively, you're distancing the class from viability within nearly all other settings.

I would have to make various versions to make viable for some of the lower denominators (low magic

Although, the only issue I see is with the large HP, SP, and gigantic variety of class abilities. Cut down one of those three areas and it should be better for most audiences IMHO. (and I mean only for the WOTC version; for Tome games, this version is fine)

I could do that for the WOTC version easily. I am pretty much going to go in a bludgeoning flurry with the nerf bat.

And pardons, I've only read this version here so far, assumed it was the same. I'll get back to you after comparing both.

I haven't changed it yet to accommodate the WOTC standards.

[the_taken]

Hippa No'dar the lvl10 human Runic Knight

Base stat Line: STR 12 DEX 16 CON 14 INT 17 (+2 Lvls) WIS 10 CHA 8

Equipment:
16,000 Gloves of DEX +4
4,000 Amulette of CON +2
8,000 RoP +2
8,000 +2 Rapier
9,000 +3 Darkwood Shield

stat Line: STR 12 DEX 20 CON 16 INT 17 WIS 10 CHA 8

Full AC 31, Touch 26. Flat-footed 26
HP HP95

This character's AC is higher than a fighter wearing +3 full plate with a +3 shield and RoP +2, 4 whole points higher, and spent alot less money on defence. Note that the Runic Knight is using the same typ of bonuses as the fighter, so when these guys get buffed, the Runic Knight is still ahead.

Saves: Fort 15, Ref 8, Will 14

This character saves money by not needing to buy a cloak of resistance, and pulls ahead by 2 points. Not very impressive or game breaking, but it does look nice.

Feats:
Weapon Finesse
Combat Reflexes
Improved Counter Spell
Iron Will
Improved Initiative

Skills: Listen, Spot, Tumble, Balance, Decipher Script, Spell Craft

The Sample CR10 Encounters:
A hallway filled with magical runes
This type of encounter is a relative breeze for three types of characters: tanks, rogues, summoners and Dispel Magic.
The Runic Knight has Dispel Magic and can tank real good. The Runic Knight also has Read Magic as well as Decipher Script, and can thus determine what kind of magical runes are on in the hallway. Attack-roll traps rarely hit and cause minimal damage, if they're not dispelled.
Definite Win.

A Fire Giant
This creature is similar to a barbarian, save for it probably has a good AC.
RK has better AC, but can't deal enough damage to end this fight quickly.
Or can he? The combination of Dazzing Strike and Designate Opponent on top of Hippa's great AC and opening with True Strike means that the Fire Giant has been subject to a high damage juggling combo. The Fire Giant saves ~50%, but then there's next round, and the RK's AC is so high...
Definite Win.

A Young Blue Dragon
The Dragon's first tactic would be to fly by and unleash a shocking breath. But the RK has built in awesome Energy Resistance everything 20. So the dragon's bad breath deals an average of 1 damage, every three rounds.
The Dragon has nice AC, and great saves, as well as an impressive attack routine. Designate opponent could work, and deals an impressive amount of damage, but the dragon's saves prevents using Dazing Strike from being a certain victory.
Toss up. If the RK can daze or nauseate the dragon, he'll open it's face up for certain, but the dragon is one tough chunk of XP.

A Bebilith
Any character with spot and/or listen as class skills will fill them up to the max. This negates the Beblith's primary advantage against spell caster, ambushing. Hippa's high AC reduce's the Beblith's chance to hit with a bite down to 40%.
The beblith's poison is deadly, and two hits from this stuff is likely to kill most characters. Hippa's going to give this thing a good flogging, and can even kill this thing in less than a minute, but unless he has some anti-poison measures with the extra GP I left him, he's done for.
Toss up, but most definitely the RK dies.

A Vrock
Between the Vrock's decent AC, at will Mirror Image and mobility, this thing is very hard to hit. It's actual melee out put isn't impressive even with the spores, and Hippa can heal himself quite competently.
The Vrock's Stunning Screech can't get absorbed by Hippa's Runic ability, so the RK may loose a round of attacking, giving the Vrock the opportunity to replenish his supply of decoys.
Toss up, but it's gonna be one hell of a long fight.

A tag team of Mind Flayers
The save DCs on Mind Blast and Charm Monster are low, and Hippa is likely to pass them, so the Illithids will have to fight him head on. They have HP worse than a wizard and pathetic AC, so if Hippa concentrates his attacks he'll pop one in a round, especially with Designate Opponent on.
If the mind flayers rush to grapple, they still lose since Hippa's BAB alone is higher than their full grapple.
Definite win. Sushi for breakfast.

An Evil Necromancer
Protection From Evil, Globe of Invulnerability, Dispel Magic, Death Ward, Runic and Combat Reflexes, great saves, Hippa's got a an easy fight here. He just locks down all spell casters.
A cleric necromancer may realize the futility of his death magic and then proceed to take Hippa on in melee using buff spells. Which Hippa can Counter Spell, dispel and/or absorb.
Probable win. Even the normally godly cleric is boned by Runic alone.

6 Trolls
The troll can't hit the RK. His AC is over 10 points higher than their attack. So he stabs them in the face 'till the all fall down without too much trouble. But he's going to have to buy a way to deal some fire or acid damage before he can actually kill anything.
Definite win, though nothing dies.

A horde of Shadows
12 shadow is a CR10 encounter.
The shadows can quite literally sneak up on everything, since they can hide IN walls and never make a sound if they don't want to.
But Hippa's Touch AC is insane (31) so the shadows virtually never hit him. He then proceeds to stab them continuously, constantly complaining about the 50% miss chance cause he doesn't have a ghost touch weapon or similar ability.
With Designate Opponent on, he can drop a shadow in one hit, so this fight ends in 12 rounds.
But there's allot of attacks to deal with. In the surprise round, Hippa takes 12hits. 11 hits in the first round, and so on for a total of 78 attacks. That means an average of 3 hits from the shadows. So Hippa will loose an average of 11 (3d6) STR in this fight. This isn't enough to ruin his damage, but if the shadows get lucky...
Toss Up.

-------

Definite win: 4
Probable win: 1
Toss up: 4
Probable loss: 0
Pwnd!: 0

Yeah, over powered. I didn't even try to optimize it. The class is just too good.

[Leress]

I thought that the necromancer was switched out for 2 Remorhazes. Since the build of cleric isn't really static?

How it the Runic Knights Touch AC 31?

[the_taken]

1203808480[/unixtime]]I thought that the necromancer was switched out for 2 Remorhazes. Since the build of cleric isn't really static?

Hmmm, I thought I was doing something was off. I was going the old list. Still, Runic Knight bones them.

How it the Runic Knights Touch AC 31?

Uh? I'm sure I state that it's 26. Which is really nice. Especially against those shadows.

[Leress]

Also how are you doing a juggle with Dazing Strike and Designate opponent? They are both swift actions to do and the daze only lasts a round.

[the_taken]

1203810275[/unixtime]]Also how are you doing a juggle with Dazing Strike and Designate opponent? They are both swift actions to do and the daze only lasts a round.

Ah. That's a flaw in my analysis. Nauseating strike is the one that lasts rounds, no? Yeah, use that instead, only a 40% chance of success, so the fight become probable win.

Round 1: Designate Opponent, cast True Strike
Round 2: Two attacks + Nauseating Strike
Round 3: Designate Opponent + Two attacks
Round 4: Two attacks + Nauseating Strike
Round 5: Designate Opponent + Two attacks
Round 6: Two attacks + Nauseating Strike
Round 7: Designate Opponent + Two attacks
Round 8: Go find a Wendy's or something.

Nauseating Strike is wicked. Dazing Strike is okay.

[Leress]

Okay, so I could make nauseating strike last one round only then?
------------------------------------------------------------
Why don't most people not read through the entire class before making a critique? It's really annoying to have a half critique on the class.

[the_taken]

1203812958[/unixtime]]Okay, so I could make nauseating strike last one round only then?

As much as I like Nauseating Strike the way it is, yeah. It'd be great against squad, (designate + nauseate one, repeat ad nauseum), but it's the mage's job to make multiple opponents cry, since a ninja can stab the mage before being mad sad, and has trouble stabbing Sir Tankalot.

Why don't most people not read through the entire class before making a critique? It's really annoying to have a half critique on the class.

Actually, I only read up to level 10, myself.

[Leress]

Okay, I will change Nauseating strike.


I just noticed something...apparently if your class doesn't fit into a certain mold than people blow up and foam at the mouth. This is what I am gathering from JaronK's comments.

[JonSetanta]

Well I don't have a mold in mind... maybe that's why I get a "meh" feeling when I see it.
I mean, it's a valid archetype and I like the concept (or the franchise, thanks to you, Taken, and the original creator!) but it just doesn't spark my nerdlobe.