The Bright Blade (now version 1.9)

[JonSetanta]

1199990279[/unixtime]]Or for a completely different take, why compete with the Cleric at all?
You could keep all the flashy bursts and stuff if you put it on the Diablo II Assassin attack routine. Every time they damage an opponent with the blade they get colored balls that they can cash in for glitter dust.

Hell, cashing in 3 or 4 successful hits for a wail of the banshee would be balanced at first level.

-Username17

That's interesting and I like the idea, but I've avoided suggesting that to Talisman due to multiple contradictory statements in the brief discussion we had on "saving up charges from taking out mooks right before the BBEG".

Unless...
... the charges expire after 1 minute outside of combat.
I found a nice definition of "end of encounter" on page 40 in Tome of Battle.
For 1 minute, a character must do:
No attacks
Not be attacked or targeted by attacks (attempted?)
Initiates no maneuvers (spells, whatever)

And you'd have to define what 'hitting an opponent' entails, or else a player will, guaranteed, poke an ally or summoned/conjured/created/cohort unit for subdual right before an encounter and then rush the boss enemy.

[CatharzGodfoot]

I've been looking at this and thinking about a totally different type of 'fey champion' class. Think of it as a 'dullblade'.

You get four basic ability progressions, supernatural abilities which are usually swift. The two primary ones are atmospheric environmental effects (literally, Wisdom-based) and cruel words (Charisma based).

So, Master of Air and Darkness gets you Obscuring Mist (D1), Darkness (W2), Fog cloud (D2), Gust of Wind (D2), Silence (B2), Deeper Darkness (C3), Sleet Storm (D3), Slow (B3), Wind Wall (D3), Mind Fog (B5), and Control Weather (D7). It might also give Control Winds (D5) and Entangle (D1).

Cruel Words gets you Bane (C1), Command (C1), Doom (C1), Lesser Confusion (B1), Confusion (B3), Crushing Despair (B3), Fear (B3), Bestow Curse (C3), Greater Command (C5), Eyebite (B6), and Power Word Stun (W8).

The class would probably also give out immunity to atmospheric effects (wind, sleet, etc), and the ability to see through fogs and mists of all kinds as well as shadowy illumination.

You'd also get some abilities encouraging you to use a sword or something like it (because otherwise you can bet that this guy is going to use a bow exclusively). Proficiency with all light slashing weapons and one handed swords would be good, but that opens up the kusarigama (and one handed swords bring the bastard). Finesse is certainly there.

And there would be some personal powers. Things like Jump, Break Enchantment, Air Walk, Freedom of Movement, Tree Stride, and Shadow Walk.

The MAD is because I'd like to see the iconic focus on Dex (swordplay), Wis (because they should be alert), and Cha.

[JonSetanta]

I've been working on an alternative Fey Champion- type class by taking a UA Prestige Paladin, replacing normal spells with Illusion, locomotive and Transmutation (maybe buffs too), and then give them the ability to call a Dreamshaped Hippogriff or Phantom Steed for mount.
The result, if tweaked right, would be a 3/4 Arcane caster of very specific schools that could be applied to many Fey straight out of the MM.

"Dullblade" does seem very appropriate.. if it works out for you, you can put it on Feybook too, Catharz.

We could post them all here to compare.

Also, as by Bigode's inspiration, I have a "Skyshaper" PrC in plans that creates weather effects that give buffs and debuffs over a wide area.
Something for level 11+ or so.

[Bigode]

Are you sure it was me, Sigma?

Catharz, what are the secondary ability progressions?

[Talisman]

1199993414[/unixtime]]I found a nice definition of "end of encounter" on page 40 in Tome of Battle.
For 1 minute, a character must do:
No attacks
Not be attacked or targeted by attacks (attempted?)
Initiates no maneuvers (spells, whatever)

And you'd have to define what 'hitting an opponent' entails, or else a player will, guaranteed, poke an ally or summoned/conjured/created/cohort unit for subdual right before an encounter and then rush the boss enemy.

I've been wrestling with the "end of encounter" definition myself...1 minute sounds fair.

As for the attack-triggered powers, I have several thoughts on that:

1. The attack would have to inflict lethal damage (no poking your buddy for 5 points nonlethal)
2. The power of the ability gained would be determined, in part, by the HD of the target - thus, if a 10th-level BB whacks a 2 HD zombie, they get an appropriately teeny ability.
3. The ability must be used within 1-2 rounds. No "saving up" your big blast - the BB is supposed to be fast, mobile and dynamic. Killing a goon, then spinning to strike the BBEG and exploding him in a blast of blue fire is cool. Killing a goon, then letting your allies spend 4 rounds carving throgh the horde of mooks so you can use your blue death flame blast is pretty lame.

Catharz, your "dullblade" sounds cool. I can already imagine a choice of "paths" that give you different abilities...someone with Master of Air and Darkness could fight someone with, say, Song of Flame and Fury, and they could have totally different - but equal - powers.

[JonSetanta]

- "An abundance of positive emotions brings shining warm radiance and soft clouds from the very clear skies above,"
- My game rules insert: "Creating new weather is at times considered a skill as valuable as any artist.": make something centered around this - it's awesome.

[Talisman]

All right, updated to version 1.9 and (hopefully) final. Here's a brief overview of the changes

• 
  
• Dropped the bonus feats at 5th and 15th levels
  
• Added Flashing Blade for extra damage
  
• Added Rainbow strike to blind or daze + Rainbow Burst as an improved version of same
  
• Added Rainbow Blast for an area attack
  
• Added Rainbow Fury because it just felt cool.
  
• Reconsidered glamouries; they're now almost exclusively self-buffs and counters
  
• Added glamouries from the psionic list
  
• Slightly reduced the number of glamouries per encounter
  
• Shuffled a couple of abilities (slippery mind, evasion)
  

Version 1.9 has more high-level abilities and offensive punch, while not simply becoming a spellcaster in armor. I kept wildstrike as-is because, while I know Frank hates it, I think it's a good balance. Also, with several new abilities each costing 1 use of wildstrike, the BB now has to actually care about how many wildstrikes he has left.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah I believe that as of recently, you, Anets, and I are figuring out a baseline for class balance, and it's no where near 'full classed Transmuter'.
So Feybook =/= Tome, keep in mind ya'll.

[Username17]

Probably the easiest way to spot test a class is to run a same game analysis at 1st, 3rd, 7th, and 10th level. Why those levels? Because those levels are restriction points that feature monsters getting revolutionarily more difficult. The first time Shadows and Hill Giants show up is a big and memorable event. And of course 10th level is the upper band of when D&D makes any sense unmodified at all. An 11th level Cleric can Shadowbind the planet, an 11th level Wizard can More Wishes himself into a sultanate. There's really no game at that point without GM fiat.

So here goes:

First Level: A longsword, a bonus feat, an extra die of cold damage, a base attack bonus, a shield, and a +4 armor bonus. At first level, this is the most powerful character ever printed. That's not hyperbole, that's a fact. The Bright Blade is the most powerful 1st level character I have ever seen.

Third Level: The character has picked up a +1 bonus to AC (what the fvck ever) and a decent save bonus. He'll have upgraded his shield and longsword, and his armor is a magic breastplate. At base, he has a better AC and worse damage output than a Rogue. However, he can and will enlarge himself every single combat as a Move Action, making his offense actually better than a Rogue, especially as he has given himself Combat Reflexes. This is a very powerful class which easily holds its own against ogres, hobgoblins, and Shadows.

Seventh Level: You get Luck Bonuses to just about everything now, which has actually depreciated in value since Clerics are now praying for the team, also you will heroism yourself at the start of all combats. You will Power Attack for +/-7 every attack and still hit virtually all enemies. Bonus calculation is a pain in the ass, because it literally changes every round until round 4. A Remorhazz still kills you extremely dead if you fight it in melee, so you don't do that. Total attack bonus by the end of the third round is conservatively going to be +7 (BAB) +6 (Luck) +2 (Morale) +2 (Magic Weapon) +4 (Strength or Dex) +1 (Haste) = about +22 to-hit. That's more than you need for anything. But you're only going to be dishing out a d8 + 2 (magic) + 4 (Strength) + 3.5 (lightning) +7 (Power Attack). So we're looking at about 21 damage per round - going through a Hill Giant in like 5 rounds. The Hill Giant only hits you 2 turns in 3, and does 19 damage each time - but you're still dead.

Hmmm... basically pushes itself off the to-hit RNG for its level but still doesn't do enough damage to win fights against thug monsters of its level. Might be able to pull out a victory by Expertising it up with a shield. Actually, yeah that would do it. So yes, stays vaguely level appropriate at level 7.

Level 10: You are never going to GMW your weapon when you can Chaos Blade your weapon. Do you hear me? Never! In any case, these past levels haven't been super kind to the Bright Blade. He has a bigger power attack, and he is going to chaos blade rather than heroism, average damage is jacked up to like 27. But basically you don't fly. Shorn of a griffon mount, you lose at life. With a mount, you have to argue with your DM about what kind of lance you can use because your weapon proficiency descriptions are unclear. In any case, you can now afford your mithril fullplate, and your AC will be very nice. If you can get your Griffon charging in, you'll contribute.

---

So basically what I'm looking at is a character who is crazy spoofed up at 1st level when fighters don't really need it, and then at higher levels can barely stagger on using the same charge/trip tricks that current characters can.

Is that what you want? A character who is essentially dependent upon magic items and mounts past about level 4?

-Username17

[Orion]

How is flying that big of a deal? You Barbarian, Fighter, Samurai, and Knight are all lacking substantial mobility -- and even monks only have it if they invest in it.

[Talisman]

1201178304[/unixtime]]Level 10: You are never going to GMW your weapon when you can Chaos Blade your weapon. Do you hear me? Never! In any case, these past levels haven't been super kind to the Bright Blade. He has a bigger power attack, and he is going to chaos blade rather than heroism, average damage is jacked up to like 27. But basically you don't fly. Shorn of a griffon mount, you lose at life. With a mount, you have to argue with your DM about what kind of lance you can use because your weapon proficiency descriptions are unclear. In any case, you can now afford your mithril fullplate, and your AC will be very nice. If you can get your Griffon charging in, you'll contribute.

I guess you missed where fly is available as a 3rd-level glamourie (first available at 7th BB level). So you don't need a griffon mount; you just need to spend an action to cast fly and he presto...you fly.

BTW, I'm not sure where this whole "fly or suck" idea comes from. I've played in and run plenty of mid-to-upper-level D&D where flying was not required. Sure, some critters fly, and sometimes flight is extremely useful...but lack of flight shouldn't mean your character is non-viable.
[/rant]

So basically what I'm looking at is a character who is crazy spoofed up at 1st level when fighters don't really need it, and then at higher levels can barely stagger on using the same charge/trip tricks that current characters can.

So, you didn't like any of the higher-end abilities? Rainbow strike = blind or daze your foes? Rainbow blast = area effect attack?

Is that what you want? A character who is essentially dependent upon magic items and mounts past about level 4?

Yeah, that's what I'm going for. Captain Useless.

As Sig noted, this class will be weaker than the transmuter wizard which is apparently the local measuring stick. That doesn't make it worthless. I personally don't think all classes need to be jacked up to the cleric/wizard/druid power band; I think the warrior-classes need a boost and the cleric/druid/wizard need some nerfage. But that's another rant.

[Username17]

I guess you missed where fly is available as a 3rd-level glamourie (first available at 7th BB level). So you don't need a griffon mount; you just need to spend an action to cast fly and he presto...you fly.

Well, except not. The character only competes at all if he gets all his buffing in every combat. If he has to spend actions and limited Glamories to put up mobility enhancements and shit, he's basically done for.

The stuff like dimension door is interesting in that it gives him a real non-combat use for Wildstrike. But you shouldn't delude yourself into thinking those things solve any weaknesses of the character in combat.

-Username17

[Orion]

Well, at level 10+ he can do fly as a swift actions, right?

[Talisman]

1201215269[/unixtime]]Well, at level 10+ he can do fly as a swift actions, right?

[Orion]

It's not just about flight though --

Align Weapon; See Invisibility; Fly; Freedom of Movement:

This guy is way *less* dependent than other warriors on item/caster support.

[Bigode]

It was said by Talisman before that the BB should be balanced to monsters - what's Frank doing (and, more hilariously, what he's ever done) other than this? Also, you're certainly free to use another balance point, if you do your best to make other classes you use fit it, and you actually spell them out when asking for advice.

And yes, the BB's way less dependent than extremely crappy and unidimensional classes on external support, but that alone doesn't guarantee it's good, and using PHB barbarians as a measure seems insulting anyway.

Talisman, have you already seen what are the revised base classes thrown around here, in the stickied threads at "In My Humble Opinion"?

[Talisman]

I have not, but I shall do so. And being less dependant on full casters/items than non-caster classes may not make the BB good, but it's sure a step in the right direction.

[CatharzGodfoot]

1201718084[/unixtime]]...and, more hilariously, what he's ever done) other than this

I would guess that he pulls stuff out of his ass that seems balanced without playtesting it as well.

[Bigode]

Talisman: indeed, that's a (fairly big) step, but you may still have more to walk.

Catharz: certainly - the puppeteer reeks of that*, IMO, but I didn't mean that; I meant that the comparisons he does are always to monster CRs.

*: in fact, for me it also smells like 12 20 HD zombies without their normally major weakness is too much at 12th (and the zombie CRs seem to agree with me).

[Bigode]

Since Talisman mentioned balance vs. monster CRs more than once, I figure running a Same Game Challenge's only fair.

ECL 5

Hellste Speer

NG Human Bright Blade 5

Str 14 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 08 Cha 17

Bluff +10
Concentration +9
Diplomacy +10
Sense Motive +7
Spellcraft +9

Improved Initiative
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack

3x2
Swift walker
Wildstrike 5/day
Unearthly grace
Lucky dodge
Uncanny dodge
Flashing blade

HP 31
AC 18/0/6
Fort +6
Refl +8
Will +7

Init +4
Melee +8, 1d8+4 (x3) - longspear
Ranged +6, 1d8+2 (x3) - longbow
Wildstrike +1d6+3/1d10
Grapple +7

+1 longspear (2)
+1 breastplate (1)
Masterwork longbow
Shortsword
Sap
Flour sack
Cloak of charisma +2 (4)
Cloak of resistance +1 (1)

---

A huge Animated iron statue: expeditious retreat (wall walker for extra cheese if need be), wildstrike on longbow; don't ask. Sure win.

A Basilisk: despite the sure ambush, I'll hardly get stoned, and I'll kill it faster in melee (which it can't avoid either). Probable win.

A Large Fire Elemental: might get ambushed; otherwise, expeditious retreat + cold longbow. Even match.

A Manticore on the wing: two-shotted. Sure loss.

A Mummy: will get ambushed. Even if paralyzed, remove fear (mental action only ...) + fire longbow. Sure win.

A Phase Spider: after being first attacked, readying full-PA attacks should kill it before the poison returns the favor. But even with defensive precognition up, I have a fair chance of dying 1 min after. Even match.

A Troll: if not grappled to death in the first/surprise round, just let the fire damage from the longbow build. Probable win.

A chasm: wall walker (it seems we're talking dungeon here). Sure win.

A moat filled with acid: assuming it's concealed, sure loss.

A locked door behind a number of pit traps: wall walker after likely falling the first time, bashing the door open shouldn't be a problem. Sure win.

A couple of Centaur Archers in the woods: each can be one-shotted, but this will start with a very painful ambush. Probable loss.

A Howler/Allip tag team: ambush, Will save or die, Wis damage. Sure loss.

A pit filled with medium monstrous scorpions (4): killing them's trivial, I might just die after that, but it's extremely unlikely. Sure win.

A Grimlock assault team (4): assuming I had a torch, Expertised stabbing. Probable win.

A Cleric of Hextor (with his zombies): at least at this point in the game, I'm a better ranged attacker, and should have enough means to keep distance. Probable win.

Sure wins: 5.
Probable wins: 4.
Even matches: 2.
Probable losses: 1.
Sure losses: 3.

Yeah, looks overpowered. It's in the upper range of classes at least.

ECL 10

Hellste Speer

NG Human Bright Blade 10

Str 14 Dex 14 Con 12 Int 13 Wis 08 Cha 21

Bluff +18
Concentration +14
Diplomacy +18
Sense Motive +12
Spellcraft +14

Improved Initiative
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Blind-Fight

4x4
Swift walker
Wildstrike 6/day
Unearthly grace
Lucky dodge
Flashing blade
Smite magic
Woodland stride
Rainbow burst DC 20
Improved uncanny dodge
Flickerstep 50 ft.
Evasion

HP 58
AC 23/2/6
Fort +11
Refl +16
Will +13

Init +6
Melee +13/8, 1d8+4 (x3) - longspear
Ranged +11/11/6, 1d8+3 (x3) - longbow
Wildstrike +2d6+5/1d10
Grapple +12

Ghost touch +1 longspear (8)
+1 breastplate (1)
+1 longbow (2)
Shortsword
Sap
Flour sack
Cloak of charisma +4 (16)
Gloves of dexterity +4 (16)
Cloak of resistance +2 (4)

---

A hallway filled with magical runes: fairly good saves, flight, death ward and a lesser globe of invulnerability should be enough. Probable win.

A Fire Giant: assuming it wastes surprise with a rock instead of closing, flight, fire resistance, temporary hp, cold damage and possibly 4 attacks/round (haste) vs. 1 should carry me through. Probable win.

A Young Blue Dragon: flies faster, burrows (which gives it an ambush) and isn't crunchy like me. Sure loss.

A Bebilith: its ambush will be really painful, but I can slip out of grappling and webs. Still, its poison's awesome - if hit, kiting ceases to be my only option ... probable loss.

A Vrock: ambushed, and possibly stunned. But after that, taking distance and charging does about half the job, and might daze it. Even match.

A tag team of Mind Flayers: nothing they do's likely to work, and they're squishy. Of course, if a mind blast works, that's all. Probable win.

A pair of Remorhazes: the fact that I can avoid its swallowing easily would matter if getting chomped and heated (possibly twice) wasn't enough to kill me. Sure loss.

6 Trolls: kiting should be automatic. Sure win.

A horde of Shadows (12): kiting actually works (however slowly), since I fly faster (despite the sure ambush). Sure win.

Sure wins: 2.
Probable wins: 3.
Even matches: 1.
Probable losses: 1.
Sure losses: 2.

Might be considered OK, especially given that I may be understimating some of them.

ECL 15

Hellste Speer

NG Human Bright Blade 15

Str 20 Dex 16 Con 18 Int 13 Wis 08 Cha 26

Bluff +26
Concentration +22
Diplomacy +26
Sense Motive +17
Spellcraft +19

Improved Initiative
Combat Expertise
Combat Reflexes
Power Attack
Point Blank Shot
Rapid Shot
Blind-Fight
Ability focus (rainbow strike)
Iron Will

5x5
Swift walker
Wildstrike 8/day
Unearthly grace
Lucky dodge
Flashing blade
Woodland stride
Rainbow burst DC 25
Improved uncanny dodge
Evasion
Greater smite magic
Slippery mind
Rainbow blast 9d6, DC 25
Improved flickerstep 75 ft.

HP 131
AC 28/3/8
Fort +22
Refl +25
Will +23

Init +7
Melee +19/14/9, 1d8+8 (x3) - longspear
Ranged +17/17/12/7, 1d8+6 (x3) - longbow
Wildstrike +2d6+8/2d10
Grapple +20

Ghost touch +1 longspear (8)
Ghost touch +1 breastplate (4)
Ghost touch +1 longbow (8)
Shortsword
Sap
Flour sack
Cloak of charisma +6 (36)
Gloves of giant strength +6 (36)
Gloves of dexterity +6 (36)
Periapt of health +6 (36)
Cloak of resistance +5 (25)
Amulet of natural armor +2 (8)

---

A Marut: its DCs need not apply, neither do its own saves vs. dazing. Sure win.

A Hullathoin (with its army of skeletons and bloodfiend locusts): auto-win above ground; under, the army still doesn't count, and the hullathoin itself can't either do much or withstand much. Sure win.

A Nightmare Beast deep in a hedge maze: I fly faster, its DCs don't mean anything. Sure win.

A Windghost in the sky: yay for kiting a flyer! Even if it uses antimagic field, it should still be doable with arrows. It has a good chance of dispelling flight, but at this point I can pretty much fly again (if that was even needed in the first place). Probable win.

A Yakfolk cleric with a party of Dao: really hard to judge due to not knowing their numbers and the wishes. I'll call it a probable loss, because we're talking wish here.

A Drow Priestess with an army of ghouls (30): I'll assume a necromantic build (so she doesn't double as cleric archer so easily). In an open space, flying to her should be easy enough; otherwise, blasting through the ghouls should be easy, the only challenge's not to fail saving throws. Probable win.

A warparty of Cloud Giants (4): flight. Sure win.

A Mature Adult White Dragon: it should get an ambush, kiting's outta question, and it should outdamage me. Probable loss.

A Death Slaad riding a Titanic Toad: even in case of ambush, the slaad can't do much, much less the toad. Sure win.

A Cornugon: hardier, flies, good stun DC: probable loss.

A Gelugon and his Iron Golem bodyguard: given that the gelugon's DCs won't go far, go kiting. Probable win.

A Rube Goldberg series of contingent weirds triggered to a set of symbols of pain surrounding the artifact: sure loss.

A pair of Glabrezus: land-bound + low DCs = sure win, ambush and all.

A harem of Succubi (16): assuming some proximity between them, it's just a matter of blasting; the vrocks might cause some trouble. Probable win.

Twenty Dire Bears: flight. Sure win.

A dozen Medusa mounted archers on Hellcats: flight. Sure win.

A forest made out of lava and infested with hostile fire-element dire badgers: flight. Sure win.

A pair of Beholders: kiting them might be entirely possible, and their DCs are really low. Probable win.

Sure wins: 9.
Probable wins: 5.
Even matches: 0.
Probable losses: 3.
Sure losses: 1.

Ouch. But I maintain that just flight (which PC-classed people in general can counter) did a lot of this.

[Talisman]

Wow! Thanks, Bigode. Judging by this, it doesn't look like I need to power-up the BB any further, eh?

I think I'm just about happy with it. It's not perfect, but I don't know of a D&D class that's literally perfect...I just want one I can be proud of.

[Aktariel]

Can someone explain to me why a Transmuter Wizard is bandied about so often as a "balance point" or "the most powerful class" or whatever? I'm just curious... I hear it mentioned a lot, and while wizards are crazy-go-nuts, yes, why Transmuters specifically?

[Bigode]

The cost/benefit ratio of specialization's so good that if you aren't specialized, you're doing it wrong. And transmutation's the school with most spells, and arguably the one that infringes the most on the others (though it might be tied with conjuration at that).