Cleric Paladin

[Crissa]

So for a new game I asked the DM if I could play a casty Paladin instead of a straight Cleric or Paladin. So what we did was tear out turning and put the Paladin abilities into a Cleric.

This is what we have:

d8 hit die
Medium BAB
Will, Fort good saves
2 skill points
Divine caster
Cleric spell list

Code: Select all

Class	Paladin		Cleric Spells[br]Level	Ability		 0	1	2	3[br]1	Divine Health	 3	1[br]2	Lay on Hands	 4	2[br]3	Divine Grave	 4	2	1[br]4	Aura of Courage	 5	3	2[br]5	Special Mount	 5	3	2	1

I don't know if this will work or not; does taking out Domain and Turning make this cleric variant too weak? Or does nerfing this Paladin into a cleric make it too weak?

-Crissa

[MrWaeseL]

So what we did was tear out turning and put the Paladin abilities into a Cleric.

Medium BAB

[JonSetanta]

Just take a normal Paladin, give it 1/2 caster levels of Cleric, and add Paladin spells to their spell list.

[Crissa]

Paladin spells are screwy, tho? They're made for someone higher casting with an inappropriately low caster level, not sure how they'll balance...

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Yeah it's like Bard spells, some fucked up holdover from AD&D that really needs a fix.
IMO spells should have relatively the same spell levels attributed to equal levels of power, and spellcaster progressions stick to a 1scl per 1 class level, 3/4, or 1/2 just like BAB.

[Crissa]

The Cleric list seems more level-appropriate than the Paladin list in this case.

So, we have two opinions that the BAB or everything but casting should be Paladin... Hum.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Yes leave Paladin as-is, just replace teh spellcasting progression.

I wonder how 3/4 caster progression (like Psychic Warrior) would work with Paladin, with their class abilities on top of that?
Maybe the Summon Mount could be removed since Cleric spells give some mobility and summons anyway, more would be redundant.

Lesser Planar Ally to call a Celestial mount, for instance.

[Crissa]

I don't really like the halvesie spellcasting, and don't really understand how they're supposed to work. Range and Paladin I understand, but think they're too little too late to matter - I don't know the Psionic stuff at all.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

Ah, Psychic Warrior is like Psion but progress in caster levels like a Cleric advanced BAB. They have less Wizardy powers and more buffs/partial-shapechanges/enhancers.
A Psion is like Sorcerer in function, that's all.

[the_taken]

My suggestion, take the regular Paladin, give him the 3.5 Bard's spell slot progression. Give him CHA based spells casting, with WIS for extra slots, and use the Cleric's spell list as a source of spells, no domains. Grant full turning. Add Paladin specific spells and call it a day.

[Crissa]

We didn't want Turning.

What Paladin-specific spells are worth keeping?

-Crissa

[Bigode]

Actually, the psychic warrior uses a maximum power level progression equal to the bard's (except that level 1 powers are at 1, since psionics doesn't have a level 0 anymore), and ML = class level, so saying "psychic warrior manifesting" is about the same as saying "bard spellcasting", and there's 2 paladins based around it here in case anyone wants to take a gander: Brobdingnagian's and Iaimeki's.

[JonSetanta]

How about Turn/Rebuke as level 1 spells?

[the_taken]

1190591730[/unixtime]]How about Turn/Rebuke as level 1 spells?

That's an interesting idea. Wait... It's just like the Wild Shape fix.
Sweat Yay Zeus! We win Vancian!

...

Actually, maybe turn undead could be Orisons?
Combine this with auto scaling DCs of course...

[CalibronXXX]

Take the Paladin, take away the Mount and maybe remove disease/disease immunity or Aura of Courage or whatever; add Cleric Specllcasting without Domains. Voila! Cleradin.

[JonSetanta]

BLAAAA Orisons... I'd rather see all spellcasting follow Psionics in that L0 are replaced with better scaling L1 spells!
This would also imply that redundant effects like Open/Close and Mage Hand, and similarly Light with Dancing Lights, are folded into the same.

Plus sides to Turn as spell:
~ no more Divine Metamagic cheese. instead, Turn damage could be amplified with Empower, DC Heightened (as taken implied) with auto-scaling by caster level, and area wider/range longer/Chaining/Twin/whatever.
~ casters can use more spells in a day, ignoring Turn if they wish in favor of other magics (implying that Turn uses would instead grant more spell L1 slots, and a Divine caster can channel spells into Turn if they do memorize, which they shouldn't.)
~ casters can use Turn or Rebuke, but the Destroy or Control are aligned Good and Evil respectively.

Down sides to Turn as spell:
~ no more Divine Metamagic. haha! byebye Cleric-Archer, unless someone can cheese up a new build, which would need higher levels but still possible.
~ easier to port to other classes. a mage Necromancer with Rebuke and Control Unded simply adds spell to their list.
~ lose Cleric-specificity as the classic D&D 'master of life and death', which would enrage grognards but make most gamers happy. so maybe that's a good thing?

w00t... Cleradin... I think I saw a commercial for that pill recently.
"Cleradin. For when Paladin fixes just don't cut it."

[Crissa]

Sigma, how does taking away Turning mean no Cleric Archer cheese?

Turning as a spell is probably more workable - spell saves should be based upon caster level anyhow.

-Crissa

[JonSetanta]

1190614893[/unixtime]]Sigma, how does taking away Turning mean no Cleric Archer cheese?

Turning as a spell is probably more workable - spell saves should be based upon caster level anyhow.

-Crissa

Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell + Turning = cheese. This is proven with a build by Frank posted by MrWaesel (I think) somewhere either here or on Nifty.
The build needs DM Persistant or else you'll be casting those buffs every encounter, and run out quickly.

Divine Metamagic Persistant Spell + no Turning = can't use feat, can't do build, cheese is delayed until one can use the real Metamagic Persistant Spell on buffs.
Then again you save on feats, I think.

The whole 'broken factor' with the Cleric Archer lies with the brokenness of Divine Metamagic, which are a series of feats that allow Turn uses to convert into Metamagic effects. This means that a L1 Cleric can possibly do things that no other cast can dream of, on top of doing everything else every other caster does.

No Turn uses, no cheese. They become bound by the same rules as everyone else.

[erik]

Having a cleric and trading Turning plus Domains for Paladin abilities seems more than fair. I would not do halfsie casting, it just sucks.

Adding paladin spells is probably a good idea. I don't share any concern that the paladin list was designed with the intent that the caster would have a crappy caster level and the spells would come late... because no real thought or design intent was actually put into them in the first place. They're mostly cleric spells with a few extras, and the halfsie-delayed-casting is more of an after-thought kick to the crotch of the paladin. Having full casting + paladin spells won't really break anything or even cause harm, and that slight edge is probably needed to keep from being much worse than a cleric.

Also, I think you meant Divine Grace as opposed to Divine Grave.

[JonSetanta]

As I believe I've stated before, what about 3/4 casting for Paladins?

As if a Paladin of 4th level would have the casting ability of a level 3 Cleric, a Pal 12 has one of Cleric 9, and Pal 20 has Cleric 15.

[erik]

1190682920[/unixtime]]As I believe I've stated before, what about 3/4 casting for Paladins?

As if a Paladin of 4th level would have the casting ability of a level 3 Cleric, a Pal 12 has one of Cleric 9, and Pal 20 has Cleric 15.

That may be kosher if the character kept the domains and the full BAB... but he's already paying pretty significant costs, no need to nerf it harder.

This character class really bears closer resemblance to a cleric. If it was sold to me as "What would I have to take away from a cleric in order to fairly give it Paladin special abilities and spells known?", then I'd be likely to say "Lose turning and your domains, that should do ya."

Losing caster levels just hurts. It was just petty and pointless when the designers decided to cripple paladin and ranger casting harder than it already was with the poorly conceived mechanic of partial caster levels.

[JonSetanta]

Yeah I know it hurst but Paladin is a warrior first and foremost. Spellcasting should support that, without allowing things like a Cleric of their same level could accomplish IMO.

Still, it's got to be better than just a Fighter with a few Domains slapped on.

[Aktariel]

Full casting.

Think of it as a "good-aligned dude who glows (or not) and smacks the shit out of evil people with a sword and can throw spells around too" kind of thing.

In other words, a good-aligned and -flavored Duskblade. Except, you know, it doesn't suck.

Hopefully.

[SunTzuWarmaster]

If you give it full casting and domains, it is a cleric, unfortunately.

I say play it like it is with the following changes:
It gets casting like the Tome Jester, and casts off the cleric spell list
It does not get Divine Health, Remove Disease, or Lay on Hands
Paladin may use any spell slot to Smite Evil (yes, even a level 0 slot)
Paladin may switch any spell slot for a Cure X Wounds (as cleric)
Paladin gets 1 domain at level 2 (effectively giving the paladin 1+Wis bonus spells/day)

This should make the paladin a secondary healer (Lay on Hands was SUPPOSED to do this), backup cleric (Remove Disease is no longer limited by WEEK, and they get Break Enchantment), and can actually Smite the living daylights out of something on a Full Attack (like they should be able to).

[CatharzGodfoot]

If you'll recall, the Tome paladin was going to be full-casting as a Dread Necro and full-BAB.

I'd give the following spells...
0:
* Create Water: Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
* Cure Minor Wounds: Cures 1 point of damage.
* Detect Magic: Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
* Detect Poison: Detects poison in one creature or object.
* Guidance: +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
* Light: Object shines like a torch.
* Purify Food and Drink: Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
* Resistance: Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
* Virtue: Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
1:
* Bless: Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
* Bless Water M: Makes holy water.
* Cure Light Wounds: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
* Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
* Detect Undead: Reveals undead within 60 ft.
* Divine Favor: You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
* Endure Elements: Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
* Hide from Undead: Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
* Magic Weapon: Weapon gains +1 bonus.
* Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge out elementals and outsiders.
* Remove Fear: Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per four levels.
* Sanctuary: Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
* Shield of Faith: Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
2:
* Aid: +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
* Align Weapon: Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
* Augury M F: Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
* Bear’s Endurance: Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
* Bull’s Strength: Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
* Calm Emotions: Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
* Consecrate M: Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
* Cure Moderate Wounds: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
* Delay Poison: Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
* Eagle’s Splendor: Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
* Owl’s Wisdom: Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
* Remove Paralysis: Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
* Resist Energy: Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
* Restoration, Lesser: Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
* Shield Other F: You take half of subject’s damage.
* Status: Monitors condition, position of allies.
* Zone of Truth: Subjects within range cannot lie.
3:
* Continual Flame M: Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
* Create Food and Water: Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
* Cure Serious Wounds: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
* Daylight: 60-ft. radius of bright light.
* Dispel Magic: Cancels spells and magical effects.
* Helping Hand: Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
* Invisibility Purge: Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
* Locate Object: Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
* Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10 min./level.
* Magic Vestment: Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
* Prayer: Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies -1 penalty.
* Protection from Energy: Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
* Remove Blindness/Deafness: Cures normal or magical conditions.
* Remove Curse: Frees object or person from curse.
* Remove Disease: Cures all diseases affecting subject.
* Searing Light: Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
4:
* Cure Critical Wounds: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
* Dimensional Anchor: Bars extradimensional movement.
* Discern Lies: Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
* Dismissal: Forces a creature to return to native plane.
* Divine Power: You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
* Freedom of Movement: Subject moves normally despite impediments.
* Magic Weapon, Greater: +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
* Neutralize Poison: Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
* Repel Vermin: Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
* Restoration M: Restores level and ability score drains.
* Spell Immunity: Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
* Tongues: Speak any language.
5:
* Atonement F X: Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
* Break Enchantment: Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrification.
* Commune X: Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
* Cure Light Wounds, Mass: Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
* Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law: +4 bonus against attacks.
* Disrupting Weapon: Melee weapon destroys undead.
* Flame Strike: Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
* Hallow M: Designates location as holy.
* Mark of Justice: Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
* Righteous Might: Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
* Spell Resistance: Subject gains SR 12 + level.
* True Seeing M: Lets you see all things as they really are.
6:
* Banishment: Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
* Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass: Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
* Dispel Magic, Greater: As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
* Find the Path: Shows most direct way to a location.
* Forbiddance M: Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
* Geas/Quest: As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
* Heal: Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
* Heroes’ Feast: Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
* Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass: Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
* Undeath to Death M: Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
7:
* Cure Serious Wounds, Mass: Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
* Holy Word: Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.
* Regenerate: Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
* Restoration, Greater X: As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
* Resurrection M: Fully restore dead subject.
8:
* Antimagic Field: Negates magic within 10 ft.
* Cure Critical Wounds, Mass: Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
* Holy Aura F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
* Shield of Law F: +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
* Spell Immunity, Greater: As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
9:
* Heal, Mass: As heal, but with several subjects.
* Miracle X: Requests a deity’s intercession.
* True Resurrection M: As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

That's conservative, you could easily give out more. Then give out some actual class abilities.