The Rebalanced Paladin!

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Caedrus
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The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

NOTE: Please check out the CURRENT version, posted here: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=761045
My apologies for not updating the post here.

Current Version: v0.74

Image
Jason A. Engle

The paladin is the epitome of the holy knight in shining armor. A beacon of heroic Good. Yet in the core books... it seems like there's no reason to bother with him past level 6, especially since the Cleric can do what she does just as well. However, this shall be the case no longer!

It should be said that if you're the sort of person who thinks core material is all perfect and good and balanced, that Fighters can stand side by side with Wizards at level 20 and such nonsense, this is not the thread for you. However, if you do see the need for rectifying balance and making the paladin a worthwhile class right up to high levels with greater power, versatility, *and* flavor, then you may well have found the solution you've een looking for!

This variant is mostly the same as the base paladin at lower levels, since the paladin is pretty much fine there. It continues to increase the power of Lay on Hands and allow it to use up some of its healing points to cure various other ailments (and just throwing out the Remove Disease ability). It changes smite/day into smite/encounter, since the high level paladin *should* be so badass that she smites all day. It gives the paladin switchable auras to support the party. It also rebuilds the paladin's spell list and gives her more spells per day. At level 5, it allows the paladin to choose from a variety different specializations instead of just getting a special mount (which is now part of the mounted specialization), allowing for a variety of different and unique styles. Further, the paladin has access to a new type of feat, the "Smite Feat," which allows the paladin to expend smite attempts in order to create a variety of other effects, enabling her to use her smite evil ability to cover a variety of versatile circumstances and perform various maneuvers.

The paladin is now a more powerful force in melee (and not just a couple rounds per day!), who uplifts her comrades with her heroic and divine prescence, and an effective backup healer.

This class is still not on the power level of well-played full spellcasters (Particularly at higher levels), and it is not intended to be. However, it *is* relevant at higher levels, and is meant to be balanced against the classes generally regarded as well built and balanced, such as the Rogue, Warblade, Psychic Warrior, decent prestige classes, or... monsters of the appropriate CR. It's meant to be in the upper-middle range of class balance.

Finally, this is a work in progress, and more material will be added in the future.

And without further ado... I offer you...

The Paladin
Hit Die: d10
BAB: Full
Saves: Good Fort, Bad Reflex, Bad Will
Skill Points at 1st level: (2+int modifier) x4
Skill Points at each additional Level: 2 + Int Modifier
Class Skills: The paladin’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Heal (Wis), Knowledge (nobility and royalty) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), and Sense Motive (Wis).

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Paladins are proficient with all simple and martial weapons, with all types of armor (heavy, medium, and light), and with shields (except tower shields).

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[B]The Paladin           Hit Die: d10                                     [br]        Base                                                                             [br]        Attack            Fort   Ref    Will                                             [br]Level   Bonus             Save   Save   Save   Special                                    [/B][br]1st     +1                +2     +0     +0     Aura of Good, Detect Evil, Smite Evil 1/encounter[br]2nd     +2                +3     +0     +0     Divine Grace, Lay on Hands[br]3rd     +3                +3     +1     +1     Aura of Courage, Divine Health, Hero's Courage[br]4th     +4                +4     +1     +1     Turn Undead[br]5th     +5                +4     +1     +1     Smite Evil 2/encounter, specialization[br]6th     +6/+1             +5     +2     +2     Panacean Touch[br]7th     +7/+2             +5     +2     +2     Bonus Feat[br]8th     +8/+3             +6     +2     +2     Aura of Protection[br]9th     +9/+4             +6     +3     +3     Revitalizing Touch[br]10th    +10/+5            +7     +3     +3     Smite Evil 3/encounter[br]11th    +11/+6/+1         +7     +3     +3     Vigilance[br]12th    +12/+7/+2         +8     +4     +4     Refreshing Touch[br]13th    +13/+8/+3         +8     +4     +4     Aura of Life[br]14th    +14/+9/+4         +9     +4     +4     Bonus Feat[br]15th    +15/+10/+5        +9     +5     +5     Smite Evil 4/Encounter[br]16th    +16/+11/+6/+1     +10    +5     +5     Break Enchantment[br]17th    +17/+12/+7/+2     +10    +5     +5     Constant Vigilance[br]18th    +18/+13/+8/+3     +11    +6     +6     Aura of Faith[br]19th    +19/+14/+9/+4     +11    +6     +6     Energizing Touch[br]20th    +20/+15/+10/+5    +12    +6     +6     Smite Evil 5/Encounter, A Hero Never Falls[br] 


Aura of Good (Ex)
The power of a paladin’s aura of good (see the detect good spell) is equal to her paladin level. It is not a switchable aura.

Detect Evil (Sp)
At will, a paladin can use detect evil, as the spell.

Smite Evil (Su)
Once per encounter, a paladin may attempt to smite evil with one normal melee attack. She adds her Charisma bonus (if any) to her attack roll and deals 1 extra point of damage per paladin level. If the paladin accidentally smites a creature that is not evil, the smite has no effect, but the ability is still used up for that day.

At 5th level, and at every five levels thereafter, the paladin may smite evil one additional time per encounter, as indicated on Table: The Paladin, to a maximum of five times per encounter at 20th level. An encounter is considered over when you do no strenuous action for 5 minutes or more.

Divine Grace (Su)
At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.

Lay on Hands (Su)
Beginning at 2nd level, a paladin with a Charisma score of 12 or higher can heal wounds (her own or those of others) by touch. She gains a pool of healing, which allows her to heal a total number of hit points of damage equal to her paladin level × her Charisma bonus. A paladin may choose to divide her healing among multiple recipients, and she doesn’t have to use it all at once. Using lay on hands is a standard action. A Paladin may refresh this pool with a full minute (10 rounds) of concentration and prayer. Refreshing the pool brings the Paladin's pool of healing back up to the maximum (Paladin level * Charisma Bonus). She may fill her healing pool a number of times per day equal half her Charisma modifier (rounded down, minimum 1).

Alternatively, a paladin can use any or all of this healing power to deal damage to undead creatures. Using lay on hands in this way requires a successful melee touch attack and doesn’t provoke an attack of opportunity. The paladin decides how many of her daily allotment of points to use as damage after successfully touching an undead creature. The target may make a Will save (DC 10+1/2 Paladin Level+Cha) to negate the damage.

The paladin's Lay on Hands gains additional capabilities as she progresses in level as a paladin. The paladin may use all additional effects in conjunction with healing, as long as she spends the correct number of points.

Switchable Auras
All auras except Aura of Good are switchable as a move action. You may have only one aura other than Aura of Good active at a given time. These auras function while the paladin is conscious, but not while the paladin is unconscious or dead.

Aura of Courage (Ex)
At 3rd level, the paladin may exude an aura of courage that inspires her allies. Each ally within 30 feet of her gains a +4 morale bonus on saving throws against fear effects. Aura of Courage's bonuses scale by level. At level 8, allies gain +6 to saves against fear, and a +1 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 13, allies gain +8 to saves against fear, and a +2 morale bonus to attack rolls. At level 18, allies gain immunity to fear, and +3 morale bonus to attack rolls. This is a switchable Aura.

Hero's Courage (Ex)
Beginning at 3rd level, a paladin is immune to fear (magical or otherwise).

Divine Health (Ex)
At 3rd level, a paladin gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.

Turn Undead (Su)
When a paladin reaches 4th level, she gains the supernatural ability to turn undead. She may use this ability a number of times per day equal to 1 + her Charisma modifier. She turns undead as a cleric of her level.

Specialization
Upon reaching 5th level, a paladin may choose any of three abilities representing three different specializations: Charging Smite (Aggressive), Special Mount (Mounted), and Argent Bastion (Defensive)

(Sidebar) Behind the Scenes: Specializations wrote:
Specializations are designed in order to emphasize a paladin's specific fighting style, or to make certain choices more viable (For example, fighting with a sword and shield is typically a suboptimal choice of armament compared to a two-handed weapon). DMs: If a player in your campaign has an idea for a particular esoteric fighting style or whatever that might otherwise be less than viable, but is nonetheless interesting and supported by his character's flavor, you may consider designing a Specialization in order to facilitate this choice. Just decide what abilities it grants (usually 4, granted at level 5, 8, 11, and 15) and what bonus feats it makes available (as a rule of thumb, keep it to 5). Suddenly, the paladin designed around throwing weapons (perhaps the Paladin from Hellsing who throws holy bayonets, for example) becomes viable and more fun to play!


Argent Bastion
The paladin gains a number of abilities as she rises in level.

Argent Bastion wrote:

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[B]                  [br]Level   Ability                                    [/B][br]5th     Shield Ward[br]8th     Cover[br]11th    Retribution[br]15th    Divine Wall


Shield Ward
The Paladin gains Shield Ward as a bonus feat, even if the paladin does not meet the prerequisites.

Cover (Ex)
Once per round, as long as the paladin is wielding a shield, the paladin may interpose himself between an adjacent ally and an incoming attack as an immediate action. The paladin absorbs all damage the damage from this single attack, and any additional effects it might have (such as something requiring a save, etc). You must decide to use this ability after the attacker determines the attack has succeeded but before she rolls damage.

Retribution
The paladin gains Retribution* as a bonus feat, even if she does not meet the prerequisites.

Divine Wall (Su)
As long as the paladin wields a shield, her square blocks line of sight for all effects. For example, if allies hid behind the paladin when a dragon used its breath weapon from the opposite side, it would only hit the paladin.


Charging Smite
As PHB II variant.

Special Mount (Sp)
The paladin gains the service of an unusually intelligent, strong, and loyal steed to serve her in her crusade against evil. This mount is usually a heavy warhorse (for a Medium paladin) or a warpony (for a Small paladin).

Once per day, as a full-round action, a paladin may magically call her mount from the celestial realms in which it resides. This ability is the equivalent of a spell of a level equal to one-third the paladin’s level. The mount immediately appears adjacent to the paladin and remains for 2 hours per paladin level; and at any time during this period the paladin may dismiss her mount to the celestial realms or recall her as a move action. However, when recalling the mount in this manner, it returns in the same condition as when it was dismissed (instead of at full health). The mount is the same creature each time it is summoned, though the paladin may release a particular mount from service.

Each time the mount is called, it appears in full health, regardless of any damage it may have taken previously. The mount also appears wearing or carrying any gear it had when it was last dismissed. Calling a mount is a conjuration (calling) effect.

Should the paladin’s mount die, it immediately disappears, leaving behind any equipment it was carrying. The paladin may not summon another mount for thirty days or until she gains a paladin level, whichever comes first, even if the mount is somehow returned from the dead. During this thirty-day period, the paladin takes a -1 penalty on attack and weapon damage rolls.


The Paladin's Mount wrote:
The paladin’s mount is superior to a normal mount of its kind and has special powers, as described below. The standard mount for a Medium paladin is a heavy warhorse, and the standard mount for a Small paladin is a warpony. Another kind of mount, such as a riding dog (for a halfling paladin) or a Large shark (for a paladin in an aquatic campaign) may be allowed as well.

A paladin’s mount is treated as a magical beast, not an animal, for the purpose of all effects that depend on its type (though it retains an animal’s HD, base attack bonus, saves, skill points, and feats).

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[B]Paladin   Bonus     Natural    Strength                                                [br]Level      HD      Armor Adj.    Adj.    Int   Special                                    [/B][br]5th        +2         +4         +1       6  Empathic link, improved evasion, share spells, share saving throws[br]8th        +4         +6         +2       7  Improved speed[br]11th       +6         +8         +3       8  Command creatures of its kind[br]15th       +8         +10        +4       9  Spell resistance[br]


Paladin’s Mount Basics
Use the base statistics for a creature of the mount’s kind, but make changes to take into account the attributes and characteristics summarized on the table and described below.

Bonus HD
Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Extra Hit Dice improve the mount’s base attack and base save bonuses. A special mount’s base attack bonus is equal to that of a cleric of a level equal to the mount’s HD. A mount has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). The mount gains additional skill points or feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.

Natural Armor Adj.
The number on the table is an improvement to the mount’s existing natural armor bonus.

Str Adj.
Add this figure to the mount’s Strength score.

Int
The mount’s Intelligence score.

Empathic Link (Su)
The paladin has an empathic link with her mount out to a distance of up to 1 mile. The paladin cannot see through the mount’s eyes, but they can communicate empathically.

Note that even intelligent mounts see the world differently from humans, so misunderstandings are always possible.

Because of this empathic link, the paladin has the same connection to an item or place that her mount does, just as with a master and his familiar.

Improved Evasion (Ex)
When subjected to an attack that normally allows a Reflex saving throw for half damage, a mount takes no damage if it makes a successful saving throw and half damage if the saving throw fails.
Share Spells

At the paladin’s option, she may have any spell (but not any spell-like ability) she casts on herself also affect her mount.

The mount must be within 5 feet at the time of casting to receive the benefit. If the spell or effect has a duration other than instantaneous, it stops affecting the mount if it moves farther than 5 feet away and will not affect the mount again even if it returns to the paladin before the duration expires. Additionally, the paladin may cast a spell with a target of "You" on her mount (as a touch range spell) instead of on herself. A paladin and her mount can share spells even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the mount’s type (magical beast).
Share Saving Throws

For each of its saving throws, the mount uses its own base save bonus or the paladin’s, whichever is higher. The mount applies its own ability modifiers to saves, and it doesn’t share any other bonuses on saves that the master might have.

Improved Speed (Ex)
The mount’s speed increases by 10 feet.

Command (Sp)
Once per day per two paladin levels of its master, a mount can use this ability to command other any normal animal of approximately the same kind as itself (for warhorses and warponies, this category includes donkeys, mules, and ponies), as long as the target creature has fewer Hit Dice than the mount. This ability functions like the command spell, but the mount must make a DC 21 Concentration check to succeed if it’s being ridden at the time. If the check fails, the ability does not work that time, but it still counts against the mount’s daily uses. Each target may attempt a Will save (DC 10 + ½ paladin’s level + paladin’s Cha modifier) to negate the effect.

Spell Resistance (Ex)
A mount’s spell resistance equals its master’s paladin level + 5. To affect the mount with a spell, a spellcaster must get a result on a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) that equals or exceeds the mount’s spell resistance.


Panacean Touch (Su)
Upon reaching 6th level, a Paladin may expend 10 points of healing from her lay on hands to remove poison from any person she touches, and 20 points of healing to remove disease from any person she touches.

Bonus Feats
At 7th level, and again at 14th level, the Paladin gains a bonus feat. At each such oppurtunity, a paladin may choose any Smite feat*, or a feat drawn from the following list. If a feat is labelled with "Aggressive", "Defensive", or "Mounted", then that feat may only be chosen by a paladin of the corresponding specialization.

Bonus Feats wrote:
Divine Cleansing
Divine Might
Divine Resistance
Divine Shield
Divine Vigor
Sacred Vengeance (Complete Warrior)
Extra Smiting*
Divine Armor (PHB II)
Divine Justice (PHB II)

Shield Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II)
Armor Specialization (Defensive) (PHB II)
Agile Shield Fighter (Defensive) (PHB II)
Active Shield Defense (Defensive) (PHB II)
Improved Shield Bash (Defensive)

Mounted Combat (Mounted)
Mounted Archery (Mounted)
Ride-By Attack (Mounted)
Spirited Charge (Mounted)
Trample (Mounted)

Overwhelming Assault (Aggressive) (PHB II)
Power Attack (Aggressive)
Cleave (Aggressive)
Great Cleave (Aggressive)
Weapon Focus (Aggressive)


Aura of Devotion (Ex)
Upon reaching 8th level, the Paladin may exude an Aura of Devotion. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants a +1 morale bonus to AC to all allies within 30 feet. At level 13, this bonus increases to +2. At level 18, this bonus increases to +3. This is a switchable aura.

Revitalizing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 9th level The Paladin can use her Lay on Hands ability to remove ability damage from a person she touches, at a cost of 5 points per point of ability damage removed.

Vigilance (Su)
Upon reaching 11th level, the Paladin's ability to detect evil increases. When she uses her Detect Evil ability, the area of effect is a 60-foot radius centered on the Paladin, rather than a 60-foot cone.

Refreshing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 12th level Paladin can remove exhaustion, fatigue,sickness, and nausea with a touch by expending 10 points from her lay on hands pool.

Aura of Resolve (Ex)
Beginning at 13th level, the paladin gains Aura of Resolve. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Fortitude save every round to any ally within a 30ft radius of her. This is a switchable Aura.

Break Enchantment (Su)
Beginning at 16th level, the Paladin can break an enchantment with a touch by expending 30 points of healing from her lay on hands ability. Her caster level counts as your paladin level -3, just as if she had cast the spell.

Constant Vigilance (Su)
Upon reaching 17th level, the Paladin is always vigilant for any signs of Evil, and her eyes begin to glow with an inner light. Her Detect Evil no longer requires any concentration to maintain, and has an unlimited duration.

Aura of Faith (Ex)
At 18th level, the paladin gains Aura of Faith. While this ability is active, the Paladin grants the ability to reroll one Will save every round to any ally within a 30ft radius of her. This is a switchable Aura.

Energizing Touch (Su)
Beginning at 19th level, Paladin may remove a negative level from a subject per 20 points expended from her lay on hands pool.

A Hero Never Falls (Ex)
At 20th level, the paladin's sheer strength of will drives her on when death would claim lesser men. Once per week when a paladin would be reduced to -10 hp or otherwise killed (such as by a death effect), she instead is reduced to 1 hp.

Spells: Beginning at 4th level, a Paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the Paladin spell list. A paladin must choose and prepare her spells in advance (see below).
To prepare or cast a spell, a paladin must have a Wisdom score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an Paladin’s spell is 10 + the spell level + the Paladin’s Wisdom modifier.
Like other spellcasters, a paladin can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Paladin Spells Per Day. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Wisdom score. When Table: Paladin Spells Per Day indicates that the Paladin gets 0 spells per day of a given spell level, she gains only the bonus spells she would be entitled to based on her Intelligence score for that spell level. The Paladin does not have access to any domain spells or granted powers, as a cleric does.
A Paladin prepares and casts spells the way a cleric does, though she cannot lose a prepared spell to cast a cure spell in its place. A paladin may prepare and cast any spell on the Paladin spell list, provided that she can cast spells of that level, but she must choose which spells to prepare during her daily meditation.
Through 3rd level, a Paladin has no caster level. At 4th level and higher, her caster level is her Paladin level minus 3.

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[b]The Paladin: Spells per Day[br]Level    1st    2nd    3rd    4th[/b][br]1st       -      -      -      -[br]2nd       -      -      -      -[br]3rd       -      -      -      -[br]4th       0      -      -      -[br]5th       1      -      -      -[br]6th       2      -      -      -[br]7th       2      0      -      -[br]8th       3      1      -      -[br]9th       3      2      -      -[br]10th      3      2      0      -[br]11th      4      3      1      -[br]12th      4      3      2      -[br]13th      4      3      2      0[br]14th      4      4      3      1[br]15th      5      4      3      2[br]16th      5      4      3      2[br]17th      5      4      4      3[br]18th      5      5      4      3[br]19th      5      5      4      3[br]20th      6      5      4      4[br]



Paladin Spells

Spells wrote:





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Code of Conduct

A paladin must be of Lawful Good alignment, and abide by a higher standard of morals and honor than the average Good-aligned person. Indeed, she is the paragon of heroic Good, drawn to a higher cause. Truly she is a person of high calibre, moral and otherwise.

There is a code of conduct presented in the PHB, but it really is better classified as an example of a generic paladin's vows and code. However, in your game being a paladin may mean quite a different thing altogether! After all, not all settings are the same, nor are all paladins. They serve various causes and deities, and the nature of Good and Evil is not always so stereotypically straightforward in all settings. Your code should represent the beliefs of your church or cause or whatever it is you, as a paladin, fight for!

Talk with your DM about what it means to be a paladin in your campaign, and the implications of it. If you are the DM, consider this, and what it really to be the paragon of good in your campaign. It should be noted that a single mistake or lack of perfection should not make a paladin fall. Indeed, is it not the lack of perfection and ultimately human(oid) nature of such a heroic figure that makes him all the more endearing and, truly, notable in calibre? After all, any old celestial can be perfect, but a man has to work for it.

Instead, the paladin falls from grace if she grossly violates her code (as stated, yet all too often overlooked, in the PHB. This means that some minor infraction would *not* make the Paladin fall), or if she changes alignment from Lawful Good. Your alignment should be your overall personality and outlook, not the result of the last action you took (although that last action *could* be considered to grossly violate the paladin's code, of course. The paladin's code is not synonymous with alignment). It should be extremely rare for a single act to alter your alignment, and it certainly shouldn't be so if the act was not done with wrongful intentions. Alignment changes should usually be the result of fairly consistent behavior of a character.

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good or grossly violates her code loses all paladin spells and abilities. She may not progress any farther in levels as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement spell description), as appropriate.

Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character.

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*All abilities listed with a * refer to a new (or revised) feat here.

New Feats

Feats wrote:
New Feat Type: [Smite]
A smite feat allows you to channel the holy energy used to smite evil enemies iin new ways, expanding your options in combat.
All smite feats require the user to expend a single use of their Smite Evil ability. Only one use of Smite Evil may be applied to any single attack. All Smite feats are considered Supernatural abilities, and cannot be used in any situation that such abilities would not function (such as in an antimagic field)

Consecration [Smite]
You channel fearsome holy energy into your weapon and slams it into the earth, unleashing the stored energy into the ground and uplifting the earth around you in a powerful shockwave.
Prerequisite: Smite 4/encounter, Str 15
Benefit: As a standard action, by using up one use of your smite per encounter, you can hit the ground with a weapon you're currently weilding. You immediately make a bull rush attempt against all enemies within a 30ft radius of you, for the purposes of this attack, you are considered one size category largrer than normal, and add your Charisma to the check rather than strength. Enemies may move further than 5 feet as if you had bullrushed and moved with them. Additionally, all enemies affected take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier.

Conviction [Smite]
Holy energy fills you with righteous conviction, driving you forward in battle.
Prerequisite: Smite 1/encounter, Hero's Courage class feature, Cha 15
Benefit: By expending a use of your Smite Evil ability, you gain a morale bonus on your attack roll equal to your Charisma bonus for a single attack.

Holy Arrow [Smite]
Your presence and faith guide your arrows true. Your faith is not limited to the single-minded close combat of your peers.
Prerequisite: Smite Evil 1/encounter, Point Blank Shot
Benefit: You may now use your Smite Evil with ranged weapons. This may be used in conjunction with other smite feats.


Holy Wrath [Smite]
You summon holy energy in order to smite your foes.
Prerequisite: Smite 2/encounter, BAB +5, Wis 13
Benefit: As a standard action, you may expend a smite Evil attempt in order to create a burst of holy energy that damages a single target. The energy deals damage equal to 1d6 per level of smiting class, and the target get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.. Half of the damage dealt is of either Fire, Electricity, or Ice damage (Chosen at the time the feat is taken), and the other half is pure divine energy, which is not subject to energy resistance.
Special: This feat may be taken multiple times. Each time, the paladin's holy wrath may correspond to a different element. For example, a paladin could take the Holy Wrath (Electricity) and then take Holy Wrath (Fire).

Judgement [Smite]
You channel pure holy energy into your weapon, and unleash a holy explosion with a swing, hurtling forward in a line through your enemies.
Prerequisite: Wis 15, Smite 3/encounter, Holy Wrath
Benefit: You may expend a use of your Smite Evil ability to use this ability. You call forth a violent burst of holy energy, dealing 1d6 sacred damage per level of smiting class in a 5 foot wide line. The length of the line is equal to 25+5 feet/2 levels of smiting class. Targets get a reflex save (DC 10+1/2 paladin level+Cha) for half damage.

Reckoning [Smite]
You channel powerful holy energy into an overwhelmingly forceful blow that stuns your enemy.
Prerequisite: Str 15, Smite 2/encounter
Benefit: You may expend one use of your Smite Evil as a standard action in order to make a single melee attack. An enemy struck by this attack must make a Fort save (DC 10+1/2 level+Cha modifier) or be dazed for one round (In addition to taking normal damage from the attack).

Retribution [Smite]
You channel holy energy into your shield which is unleashed when you are attacked.
Prerequisite: Smite Evil 3/encounter, Shield Specialization
Benefit: As an immediate action when an opponent attempts to strike you, you may expend a use of your Smite Evil to add your Charisma bonus to your Shield Bonus to AC against this attack. If the opponent's attack misses, they are automatically knocked back 5 feet by the unleashed holy energy and take damage equal to twice your Charisma modifier. The movement provokes an attack of oppurtunity from anyone but you.

Vindication [Smite]
By channelling holy energy into your weapon, it can cross the nexus between planes and harm ethereal foes.
Prerequisite: Wis 13, Smite Evil 1/encounter
Benefit: You may expend a Smite Evil use to give an attack the benefit of the Ghost Touch weapon enhancement.
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Extra Lay on Hands [General]
You are a focused healer, and are able to draw upon more holy power in order to heal yourself and your allies.
Prerequisite: Wis 15, Lay on Hands class feature
Benefit: You may refresh your Lay on Hands pool one extra time per day.

Extra Smiting [General]
You can make more smite attacks
Prerequisites: Smite ability, base attack bonus +4
Benefit: When you take this feat, you gain one extra smite per encounter.
Note: This replaces the Extra Smiting feat written in Complete Warrior, which does not apply to the Rebalanced Paladin


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Feedback for the Rebalanced Paladin

Feedback wrote:

This Paladin is going to be AWESOME!
-Aryxbez

Consider this yoinked
-Thwyvylyn

I like this rebuild; it gives a maligned class a much-needed boost in power.
-CryoSilver

...you have fixed the original Paladin to what it should be... I would love to play this Paladin. Holy, healy, and the protector of the innocent.
-Aramek

This thread totally warrants the explanation point in its title.
-Optimator

Three cheers to you, gentlemen!!!! :bow:
-Carnivorous_Bean

The abilities themselves are great, and seem to give a great boost to a class that needed it.
-igotsmeakabob!!

Per-encounter abilities! Nice touch!!
-sigma999

Wow, great job. :clap:
-Antarx

I really really like this.
-Riodrian

I find the rebalanced paladin quite perfect
-Aryxbez

I plan on using it in my campaign.
-HamHam

I'm really excited to play this Paladin now.
-Optimator

For some reason I feel like playing a Paladin...
-Prince Indirian

:clap: Good job.
:cookie: One for OneWinged4ngel
:cookie: One for Seerow
-Otto the Bugbear

You've just brought the paladin back to his old, heroic glory. I cannot thank you enough, Angel.
-theotherdraxen


___

This class has been a collaborative effort between Seerow and I, so he deserves credit as well.

Also, if people seem interested in using this in their games, I might end up redoing some other "underpowered" classes. And maybe even adjust a few of the other classes (like make the Sorceror more cool and flavorful, but not increase power much).

I encourage you all to be honest and straightforward in critiques. Be brutal, because I want this to be as damn near perfect as I can make it.
Caedrus
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

I posted this up on the Classes board on Wizards (and that post will always be the most updated, if for some reason I haven't updated this one). However, I'm hoping for a bit more scrutinizing eyes to examine it, here.

Does this appear balanced against monsters of the appropriate CR? Are there any mistakes you can see, or any notable exploits?

Edit: Hmmm, it appears as though the spoilers here don't work quite like on the Wizars boards. I'll try to fix up the format to be more presentable here when I get a chance. Anyways, it should be readable enough right now, hopefully...
MrWaeseL
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by MrWaeseL »

Why does the (ex) link link back to this thread

Oh God I have no idea
User avatar
Desdan_Mervolam
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Desdan_Mervolam »

Way to many images. WAY too many. Having one at the top of the thread is fine, but why have so many of them? They break the text up and make it more cumbersome to read. And not all of them are that good.

-Desdan
Don't bother trying to impress gamers. They're too busy trying to impress you to care.
Caedrus
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

Desdan_Mervolam at [unixtime wrote:1165110686[/unixtime]]Way to many images. WAY too many. Having one at the top of the thread is fine, but why have so many of them? They break the text up and make it more cumbersome to read. And not all of them are that good.

-Desdan


Yeah... in the original writeup, there's the one picture at the top and the rest are in sblocks. Since sblocks didn't work here... It came out pretty weird-looking here. Anyways, I've cleaned it up soom to look decent on The Gaming Den.

MrWaeseL at [unixtime wrote:1165102936[/unixtime]]Why does the (ex) link link back to this thread

Oh God I have no idea


That's strange... I'll fix it.

___

For the moment, please just check the thread here until I get a chance to redo the formatting for The Gaming Den: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=729837
Username17
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Username17 »

Things that immediately jump out at me:

  • The class retains the D&D schizophrenia as regards Saving Throws. If your class feature is "Has the best saves in the game", there's no reason to believe that you'd be satisfied with having the worst base save bonuses in the game. Something just doesn't add up. Traditionally this leads a lot of Paladins to multiclass - because the primary strength of the class (good saves) is in no way enhanced by any level of the class after 3. Your version does nothing to alleviate that, and is probably going to see most use as a dip class just like every other version of the Paladin.

  • Turn Undead at 3/4 Level is bullshit. It seriously isn't worth anything at all. As character levels go up, Undead Hit Dice go up by more than your character level. Your ability to do shit to undead with turning is based on whether your turning level is double their hit dice. If you gave Paladins Turning equal to a Cleric of twice their level, they'd still need to get amulets of turning to accomplish jack diddly at he higher levels. I'm not even kidding.

  • Keeping track of damage tradeoffs is complicated. Too complicated. Really, if a Paladin is able to heal ability damage and negative levels at all, she should probably just do it. Really, negative levels can be removed during downtime so easily at the level she can do this (19th), that the ability to do it as a combat action isn't even important most of the time. At the levels that a Paladin's Lay on Hans can remove status afflictions, it should just remove the appropriate status afflictions. To do otherwise is both a pain in the ass and a slap in the face.


-Username17
Caedrus
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

Thanks for the reply, Frank!

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165262344[/unixtime]]Things that immediately jump out at me:

  • The class retains the D&D schizophrenia as regards Saving Throws. If your class feature is "Has the best saves in the game", there's no reason to believe that you'd be satisfied with having the worst base save bonuses in the game. Something just doesn't add up. Traditionally this leads a lot of Paladins to multiclass - because the primary strength of the class (good saves) is in no way enhanced by any level of the class after 3. Your version does nothing to alleviate that, and is probably going to see most use as a dip class just like every other version of the Paladin.


Well, I alleviated it somewhat as a dip class in the respect that, say, a Sorceror who dips in it for two levels is only going to get the +2 total bonus to saves. There is a cap by level on how much it can add, so it can encourage people to take a few more levels of it. On the other hand, just like you've said before, there should always be some benefit to multiclassing. I didn't want to put it so that multiclassing into a paladin is slapping yourself in the face.

Anyways, do you have any suggestions on how I can improve this situation?


[*] Turn Undead at 3/4 Level is bullshit. It seriously isn't worth anything at all. As character levels go up, Undead Hit Dice go up by more than your character level. Your ability to do shit to undead with turning is based on whether your turning level is double their hit dice. If you gave Paladins Turning equal to a Cleric of twice their level, they'd still need to get amulets of turning to accomplish jack diddly at he higher levels. I'm not even kidding.
Don't I know it! Originally, I wanted to make it sort of a stealth boost to it (better at lower levels) but really, I think it would be better at full. Turn Undead is just generally sucky all around, and I think if anyone is going to give the paladin a penalty to how well they can turn... it should go to turns/day. The obvious reason for this is because divine feats go by turns per day, and the level you turn at doesn't even *matter*. This generally makes it smoother. Actually, I'll just give them full turning right now (but still keep the reduced turns/day, making them worse at it than the cleric in some respects, but possibly getting more turns because of their Charisma focus)

Anywho, just switched it to full cleric level turning. Still not particularly good, of course, but that's what we have Divine Feats for.


[*] Keeping track of damage tradeoffs is complicated. Too complicated. Really, if a Paladin is able to heal ability damage and negative levels at all, she should probably just do it. Really, negative levels can be removed during downtime so easily at the level she can do this (19th), that the ability to do it as a combat action isn't even important most of the time. At the levels that a Paladin's Lay on Hans can remove status afflictions, it should just remove the appropriate status afflictions. To do otherwise is both a pain in the ass and a slap in the face.[/list]

-Username17


Currently, the costs are similar to the Dragon Shaman's, and Lay on Hands really is kind of a side thing rather than anything of a standby (because the pool's kinda low ever since we changed it to appease those complaining about how overpowered it was on the Wizards Boards even though it really wasn't that much. Bleh.)

However, if it's going to "just remove afflictions", how does this work exactly? Does it just say "it can remove afflictions as often as you want" or "whenever you lay on hands, it removes said afflictions"? My only issues with this would be with a few things like walking into a plagued city and easily being able to wipe out all the disease with a not-so-high level paladin (although I'm sure you have something more elegant in mind)
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by RandomCasualty »

First, I like the idea of changing smite damage to extra dice (perhaps +1d6 per 3 paladin levels). This makes it less abuseable when using damage multipliers, like charges and stuff. As extra damage dice, there's far fewer ways to truly abuse the ability for insane damage.


FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165262344[/unixtime]]
  • The class retains the D&D schizophrenia as regards Saving Throws. If your class feature is "Has the best saves in the game", there's no reason to believe that you'd be satisfied with having the worst base save bonuses in the game. Something just doesn't add up. Traditionally this leads a lot of Paladins to multiclass - because the primary strength of the class (good saves) is in no way enhanced by any level of the class after 3. Your version does nothing to alleviate that, and is probably going to see most use as a dip class just like every other version of the Paladin.

Yeah, I personally like to change divine grace to "may substitute charisma bonus for con/dex/wis when making saving throws" and I give paladins good fortitude saves and good will saves for base. It gives paladins great saves, but makes it less of a dip class for totally awesome saves, especially at high levels, where adding two stats to your saves is crazy good.

Caedrus
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

RandomCasualty at [unixtime wrote:1165291738[/unixtime]]First, I like the idea of changing smite damage to extra dice (perhaps +1d6 per 3 paladin levels). This makes it less abuseable when using damage multipliers, like charges and stuff. As extra damage dice, there's far fewer ways to truly abuse the ability for insane damage.
There's actually some debate along those lines on the thread on the Wizards boards whether I should do something like that, both on the Classes and the CO boards.


FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165262344[/unixtime]]
  • The class retains the D&D schizophrenia as regards Saving Throws. If your class feature is "Has the best saves in the game", there's no reason to believe that you'd be satisfied with having the worst base save bonuses in the game. Something just doesn't add up. Traditionally this leads a lot of Paladins to multiclass - because the primary strength of the class (good saves) is in no way enhanced by any level of the class after 3. Your version does nothing to alleviate that, and is probably going to see most use as a dip class just like every other version of the Paladin.

Yeah, I personally like to change divine grace to "may substitute charisma bonus for con/dex/wis when making saving throws" and I give paladins good fortitude saves and good will saves for base. It gives paladins great saves, but makes it less of a dip class for totally awesome saves, especially at high levels, where adding two stats to your saves is crazy good.



That is an interesting idea, and something I will keep in mind. Remember, however, that that abuse is somewhat prevented by the new paladin, in the respect that the Divine Grace is capped at the Paladin's level (thus, a level 2 paladin can never get any more benefit than a +2 to saves). This slows the benefit for dipping.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Username17 »

Remember, however, that that abuse is somewhat prevented by the new paladin, in the respect that the Divine Grace is capped at the Paladin's level (thus, a level 2 paladin can never get any more benefit than a +2 to saves).


You're fooling yourself like the punk who made the 3.5 Duelist. The mechanic of "+X, or + Class Level whichever is lower" is shit, and always has been. It fvcks people with a low X and it fvcks people with a high X, it just fvcks people, don't fvcking do it.

The thing is: having good saves as a Paladin character isn't abuse. It's what the character is for. As a Paladin generally, and your setup is no different, your character's only claim to fame is that he is resistant to magic. He's a defensive specialist that is supposed to oppose wizards. That's a really shitty place to be in D&D at any level. And if that's you're schtick, you'd better be making your saves like all the damn time because you're going to be getting hit with a lot of spells that will drop you right out of the fight if you don't.

I mean seriously, what does this guy get by level 4 that helps in any way in a fight against a bear? Nothing! The only thing he has is some resiliance to hostile magic and arbitary status conditions. If your opponent is any of the many opponents who don't do any of that, you're just a Warrior.

So your resiliance had better be awesometastic, because it doesn't help in any way against a substantial number of opponents. An offensive spell is pretty cool because you have a small pile of them and if you don't think one is appropriate you use another one FTW. A defensive ability is much worse, because you're essentially paying for it whether it is relevant in the current encounter or not.

In short, if a defensive ability isn't so fvcking awesome that it forces your opponents to change tactics, it's garbage. And that's everything this Paladin is doing from now until the end of time. He's crappy, because he's a frontliner who can't frontline against melee or archery based opponents.

If you give an ability "has better saves" - it had better come with extremel good saves. As is, the paladin has the worst saves in the game coupled with an ability that requires double investiture (attribute raising and level raising) to get a single benefit (the kinds of saves you would have had if you'd just been multiclassing classes with good saves). As is, taking the second level of Paladin doesn't give out particularly better saves than simply taking a level of Monk instead - and it isn't even as offensively interesting, which is extremely pathetic.

Currently, the costs are similar to the Dragon Shaman's


Of hell no! Don't use the Dragon Shaman as an example to do anything, because that class is lame beyond mortal comprehension. Their stupid auras apply to a lot of targets sometime, so I'm sure that if you had a big enough army you'd want one around. Like, maybe after your third bard. That's the only use they have, which means that they - and their stupid nerftastic mechanics - have no place in a D&D party.

When you get the ability to counter a status condition, you've just picked up an ability that doesn't do anything unless your opponent actually uses that status effect on you. You could go your whole life without ever encountering a disease effect, and by the time you get the ability to cure one the Cleric could just prepare such a spell tomorrow morning or have a remove disease on a scroll.

That means that if it has a meaningful cost to your character to remove that disease, you seriously might as well not even have that ability. Furthermore, when disease effects do rear their ugly head, they almost always hit the whole party, so if you can't cure sickness at least 4 times you're going to have to wait for morning and stop for Clerical intervention anyway - which is just like you not having an aability at all.

Reactive abilities ahve to be very much better than active abilities because there is absolutely no guaranty that you will ever be able to use them. If you aren't comfortable with a Paladin curing 4 diseases after one encounter at virtually no cost - then you shouldn't even give them a disease curing ability. Clerics don't use cures as combat magic because Cures suck ass. Clerics use cures out of combat because they prepared contingency spells that they turned out to not need that day. But you can't do that with Class Features. Once you've thrown a level away on getting Panacea Touch, you can't get it back during almost every single encounter you ever have in your whole life where you wanted something else instead.

---

That seems to be the core design problem of this whole class. It's very long and it takes a lot of reading to grasp what it's doing. But the answer to what it is actually doing appears to be "fvck all" because almost all of its abilities are reactive to obscure effects that you often go whole campaigns without ever seeing used and the cost of using them is usually so high that even if they finally show up you frequently won't even be in a position to give a damn.

Paladin: Finally! A fvcking negative level, I can cure it! Except... I'm out of healing points today.... shit.

Cleric: No worries, I got a couple scrolls of restoration lying around in case we found some of this bullshit, I'll deal.


If your power is supposed to be "I negate bullshit status afflictions" - you'd better be amazingly good at it. I'm talking about getting action advantage or limited ability advantage or something. But most of these status afflictions don't use up limited abilities or actions to inflict! A vampire inflicts negative levels as an afterthought while he's beating the shit out of you. A snake inflicts poison while he's biting your face. And so on. To make it a worthwhile combat ability, you'd have to be spending less than that to cure those afflictions.

Less than nothing?

Yep. For those abilities to be useful, you'd have to be spending less than nothing to use them.

-Username17
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by SirWayne »

To be fair, Frank, "balancing" a class compared to what D&D is is substantially different compared to how things ought to be balanced. In a world (or at least a gaming table) where a group isn't even interested in playing the kind of game you and K are working on (like my old one :/), and just want to use at least most of the books they have; your options are pretty limited. Sure, Paladin saves suck compared to a heavily-multiclassed character, but fixing that requires an overhaul of the saving throw system, and whether that should be done or not (it should, and we all know that) doesn't really have much bearing as regards one class writeup.

Predictably, I agree with the rest of it-- using Lay on Hands to remove status effects shouldn't really have a separate cost, since not only is it weaker than the alternative, it invites needless bookkeeping. With the setup where a Paladin can "refresh" his healing pool anyway, it's probably better to just switch to a uses/day setup and get a lot more of them (Lay Hands should scale better with level, too-- the thing where it's basically a heal spell at 20th level and 4 points at 1 is just a joke-- that's so much weaker than what Clerics aren't doing to be pointless), or something.

Caedrus-- It's substantially better than the Core Paladin without being overpowered, so if that was your goal, congrats. :] A couple things, though--

Regarding the "specializations," Charging Smite doesn't have a progression. It's kind of a cheesy ability as it is-- it makes up for the lack of having a mount by giving you Spirited Charge when you smite, unfortunately forgetting that you can pick up a mount anyway by just buying one and then taking Spirited Charge to get level * 9 on your Smiting... and misses don't count against you. Charge builds are the one fighter niche that doesn't need powering up (quite the contrary) so I really don't think this is a good idea, heh.

The Paladin only gets a handful of auras and none are exceptionally good, so restricting them to one at a time seems unnecessary. I'd either let them all stack, or beef them up (preferably the latter, if you want to keep that Diablo-esque aspect to the class). I'd also suggest an aura that grants a global save bonus, since that'd make tinkering with the class's saves less necessary and help its defensive role.

Some of its abilities aren't (an always-on Detect Evil being radial rather than an arc isn't exactly exciting), and for those I'd toss in more bonus feats-- at least 2 (four or five bonus feats seems to be the number WOTC is comfortable with giving classes who aren't Fighters... and let's not kid ourselves; Fighters aren't worth playing for long anyway).

Beyond that, I think it's solid. Frank's experiences are clearly different from ours (:] ) but I don't think this Paladin writeup would fare too badly compared to the typical group. Most PCs fight evil opponents almost exclusively (especially in modules) and crazy Smiting is probably going to serve better in a fight against cornugons than charm monster, for example.

For what it's worth, my idea was to make Crusader the base class (combining smiting and the low-level abilities of Paladins with the maneuvers and Furious Counterstrike of the ToB Crusader) and put them on a point system (I called it "conviction points" following a campaign of Hunter the Reckoning, but anyway) that smiting, lay hands, and abilities modifying them draw from. Combining smites with maneuvers has been tremendously effective, and without something like that [as Frank pointed out] Paladins end up under-achieving against nonevil enemies. Just something to keep in mind.

First, I like the idea of changing smite damage to extra dice (perhaps +1d6 per 3 paladin levels).


I really like this idea, and will probably switch to it. It opens up a ton of possible options (like "deal double Smite dice in a radius, save for half", or "deal half damage against nonevil enemies") and fixes that annoying charge multiplier gimmick. Thanks, RC, good call.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165338949[/unixtime]]
Remember, however, that that abuse is somewhat prevented by the new paladin, in the respect that the Divine Grace is capped at the Paladin's level (thus, a level 2 paladin can never get any more benefit than a +2 to saves).


You're fooling yourself like the punk who made the 3.5 Duelist. The mechanic of "+X, or + Class Level whichever is lower" is shit, and always has been. It fvcks people with a low X and it fvcks people with a high X, it just fvcks people, don't fvcking do it.

The thing is: having good saves as a Paladin character isn't abuse. It's what the character is for. As a Paladin generally, and your setup is no different, your character's only claim to fame is that he is resistant to magic. He's a defensive specialist that is supposed to oppose wizards. That's a really shitty place to be in D&D at any level. And if that's you're schtick, you'd better be making your saves like all the damn time because you're going to be getting hit with a lot of spells that will drop you right out of the fight if you don't.


Excuse me, I shouldn't say "abuse." It just prevents people from getting a full benefit from a dip, and that's all I was saying. Unless you're getting a very high Charisma very fast, the cap generally won't matter much at all for the average, straight-levelled paladin.


I mean seriously, what does this guy get by level 4 that helps in any way in a fight against a bear? Nothing!

Actually, this is exactly what Smite Feats are there for... to make Smites a standby in battle against even nonevil enemies. If the paladin had taken Conviction, for example, he'd get his Charisma bonus on attacks against the bear.


So your resiliance had better be awesometastic, because it doesn't help in any way against a substantial number of opponents. An offensive spell is pretty cool because you have a small pile of them and if you don't think one is appropriate you use another one FTW. A defensive ability is much worse, because you're essentially paying for it whether it is relevant in the current encounter or not.

In short, if a defensive ability isn't so fvcking awesome that it forces your opponents to change tactics, it's garbage. And that's everything this Paladin is doing from now until the end of time. He's crappy, because he's a frontliner who can't frontline against melee or archery based opponents.

If you give an ability "has better saves" - it had better come with extremel good saves. As is, the paladin has the worst saves in the game coupled with an ability that requires double investiture (attribute raising and level raising) to get a single benefit (the kinds of saves you would have had if you'd just been multiclassing classes with good saves). As is, taking the second level of Paladin doesn't give out particularly better saves than simply taking a level of Monk instead - and it isn't even as offensively interesting, which is extremely pathetic.

Currently, the costs are similar to the Dragon Shaman's


Of hell no! Don't use the Dragon Shaman as an example to do anything, because that class is lame beyond mortal comprehension. Their stupid auras apply to a lot of targets sometime, so I'm sure that if you had a big enough army you'd want one around. Like, maybe after your third bard. That's the only use they have, which means that they - and their stupid nerftastic mechanics - have no place in a D&D party.
I agree that the Dragon Shaman isn't good. Like at all. I was just saying where I got the costs for the Lay on Hands cures from.


When you get the ability to counter a status condition, you've just picked up an ability that doesn't do anything unless your opponent actually uses that status effect on you. You could go your whole life without ever encountering a disease effect, and by the time you get the ability to cure one the Cleric could just prepare such a spell tomorrow morning or have a remove disease on a scroll.

That means that if it has a meaningful cost to your character to remove that disease, you seriously might as well not even have that ability. Furthermore, when disease effects do rear their ugly head, they almost always hit the whole party, so if you can't cure sickness at least 4 times you're going to have to wait for morning and stop for Clerical intervention anyway - which is just like you not having an aability at all.

Reactive abilities ahve to be very much better than active abilities because there is absolutely no guaranty that you will ever be able to use them. If you aren't comfortable with a Paladin curing 4 diseases after one encounter at virtually no cost - then you shouldn't even give them a disease curing ability. Clerics don't use cures as combat magic because Cures suck ass. Clerics use cures out of combat because they prepared contingency spells that they turned out to not need that day. But you can't do that with Class Features. Once you've thrown a level away on getting Panacea Touch, you can't get it back during almost every single encounter you ever have in your whole life where you wanted something else instead.

---

That seems to be the core design problem of this whole class. It's very long and it takes a lot of reading to grasp what it's doing. But the answer to what it is actually doing appears to be "fvck all" because almost all of its abilities are reactive to obscure effects that you often go whole campaigns without ever seeing used and the cost of using them is usually so high that even if they finally show up you frequently won't even be in a position to give a damn.

Paladin: Finally! A fvcking negative level, I can cure it! Except... I'm out of healing points today.... shit.

Cleric: No worries, I got a couple scrolls of restoration lying around in case we found some of this bullshit, I'll deal.


If your power is supposed to be "I negate bullshit status afflictions" - you'd better be amazingly good at it. I'm talking about getting action advantage or limited ability advantage or something. But most of these status afflictions don't use up limited abilities or actions to inflict! A vampire inflicts negative levels as an afterthought while he's beating the shit out of you. A snake inflicts poison while he's biting your face. And so on. To make it a worthwhile combat ability, you'd have to be spending less than that to cure those afflictions.

Less than nothing?

Yep. For those abilities to be useful, you'd have to be spending less than nothing to use them.

-Username17


Quite simply... the Lay on Hands is not much of a focus of the class. The paladin is relying on his saves, smites, and spells. The Lay on Hands isn't particularly good, and is more of a way to fill empty levels than actually do something particularly notable. Maybe I will end up taking down the cost for restoring status effects, or increase the Lay on Hands pool some (it was originally a good deal bigger)

Additionally, I should say that one thing I wanted to go for in this rewrite was keeping the general feel of the core paladin. This may include some generally bad mechanics, but I wanted to make it as easy and smooth a transition for players as possible. I wanted it to be easy to convert prestige classes, variants, alternate class features, feats, and the like. Even though the system may be flawed, I didn't want to overhaul it at this point.

Anyways, some good points here. I'll consider your advice as I continue to tweak the class :smile:
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

SirWayne at [unixtime wrote:1165368254[/unixtime]]To be fair, Frank, "balancing" a class compared to what D&D is is substantially different compared to how things ought to be balanced. In a world (or at least a gaming table) where a group isn't even interested in playing the kind of game you and K are working on (like my old one :/), and just want to use at least most of the books they have; your options are pretty limited. Sure, Paladin saves suck compared to a heavily-multiclassed character, but fixing that requires an overhaul of the saving throw system, and whether that should be done or not (it should, and we all know that) doesn't really have much bearing as regards one class writeup.

Predictably, I agree with the rest of it-- using Lay on Hands to remove status effects shouldn't really have a separate cost, since not only is it weaker than the alternative, it invites needless bookkeeping. With the setup where a Paladin can "refresh" his healing pool anyway, it's probably better to just switch to a uses/day setup and get a lot more of them (Lay Hands should scale better with level, too-- the thing where it's basically a heal spell at 20th level and 4 points at 1 is just a joke-- that's so much weaker than what Clerics aren't doing to be pointless), or something.


I really think it should. Any suggestions on how I can fix up the Lay on Hands progression?


Caedrus-- It's substantially better than the Core Paladin without being overpowered, so if that was your goal, congrats. :] A couple things, though--


Thanks, that's what I was going for.


Regarding the "specializations," Charging Smite doesn't have a progression. It's kind of a cheesy ability as it is-- it makes up for the lack of having a mount by giving you Spirited Charge when you smite, unfortunately forgetting that you can pick up a mount anyway by just buying one and then taking Spirited Charge to get level * 9 on your Smiting... and misses don't count against you. Charge builds are the one fighter niche that doesn't need powering up (quite the contrary) so I really don't think this is a good idea, heh.
I've been thinking of making up something else for Charging Smite, but I've not gotten around to it yet.


The Paladin only gets a handful of auras and none are exceptionally good, so restricting them to one at a time seems unnecessary. I'd either let them all stack, or beef them up (preferably the latter, if you want to keep that Diablo-esque aspect to the class). I'd also suggest an aura that grants a global save bonus, since that'd make tinkering with the class's saves less necessary and help its defensive role.

Well, I was going to come out with a "Leadership" specialization that makes better use of auras. Originally, Aura of Faith worked for every type of save, but later I split it up into Aura of Resolve and Aura of Faith... taking out Aura of Life. The reason for this was because I wanted to keep more with the inspiration and leadership flavor for the paladin's auras rather than outright magical effects.


Some of its abilities aren't (an always-on Detect Evil being radial rather than an arc isn't exactly exciting), and for those I'd toss in more bonus feats-- at least 2 (four or five bonus feats seems to be the number WOTC is comfortable with giving classes who aren't Fighters... and let's not kid ourselves; Fighters aren't worth playing for long anyway).


Admittedly, those things were kind of just plugs for empty levels, since I was nervous about giving them more feats. I may just give it to them, however, pending more playtesting. One useful thing the always on radial can do that might not be immediately apparent, though, is detect the occasional ambush (admittedly, not all too special at it, but it's still a use, eh?)


Beyond that, I think it's solid. Frank's experiences are clearly different from ours (:] ) but I don't think this Paladin writeup would fare too badly compared to the typical group. Most PCs fight evil opponents almost exclusively (especially in modules) and crazy Smiting is probably going to serve better in a fight against cornugons than charm monster, for example.


Indeed, I had my own groups in mind when I made this. They're not particularly wicked optimizers... and I nerf spells a bit. Full spellcasters still are definitely the top rung of the power ladder, though.


For what it's worth, my idea was to make Crusader the base class (combining smiting and the low-level abilities of Paladins with the maneuvers and Furious Counterstrike of the ToB Crusader) and put them on a point system (I called it "conviction points" following a campaign of Hunter the Reckoning, but anyway) that smiting, lay hands, and abilities modifying them draw from. Combining smites with maneuvers has been tremendously effective, and without something like that [as Frank pointed out] Paladins end up under-achieving against nonevil enemies. Just something to keep in mind.


Well, Smite Feats are designed to give the pally some additional use against nonevil enemies... albeit less use than against Evil enemies.


First, I like the idea of changing smite damage to extra dice (perhaps +1d6 per 3 paladin levels).


I really like this idea, and will probably switch to it. It opens up a ton of possible options (like "deal double Smite dice in a radius, save for half", or "deal half damage against nonevil enemies") and fixes that annoying charge multiplier gimmick. Thanks, RC, good call.


This is something being discussed on the Wizards boards, actually, and is an idea still under consideration.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Crissa »

I don't see any advantage of this, more complicated, Paladin gets me. There's alot of text, most of the abilities are in the same place, but have more rext associated with them.

And my least favorite ability (turning) is on the list, and my next least favorite (mount) isn't. And they're not improved.

So, uhh, lots of text.

-Crissa
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

Crissa at [unixtime wrote:1165375792[/unixtime]]I don't see any advantage of this, more complicated, Paladin gets me. There's alot of text, most of the abilities are in the same place, but have more rext associated with them.

And my least favorite ability (turning) is on the list, and my next least favorite (mount) isn't. And they're not improved.

So, uhh, lots of text.

-Crissa


Less uses of turning, but the level is unchanged (as opposed to the penalty you take as the normal paladin).

Special Mount is still there, but it's one of the three specializations.

As for the jumble of text, it really isn't any more complex (it's actually a pretty easy fix to implement) and it really does look nicer on the Wizards boards with sblocks and such...
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Username17 »

Quite simply... the Lay on Hands is not much of a focus of the class. The paladin is relying on his saves, smites, and spells.


Oh dear. I was afraid it was something really dumb like that.

Let's take this step by step:

  • Your Paladin Doesn't have Good Saves! I don't know how this hasn't sunk in yet, but this character seriously gets the saves of a Monk at best when he hits 2nd level. After that, it's all down hill. By level 12, the Cleric has better saves if he's seen at least 2 PrCs. Saves are a reactive ability, they don't make you win under any circumstances. Having a crazy crazy big saving throw isn't something that you can rely upon to advance the plot or kill your enemies.

  • Smite is usable less often than you can attack in a single round! At first level, you can pick up one attack from your spear and one attack normal and Smite can't keep up with that. And it will never keep up with you. That sucks. If Smite caused huge pillars of flame to come down and clear all enemies from the battlefield that might be excusable - but it doesn't. It's just a modest pile of whupass for many of your attacks on the first round of combat.

  • If you weren't kidding about the paladin spells, I will kill your family. Paladin Spells are a joke. They are lower level than real spells and Wisdom is a Paladin dump stat, so the Save DCs are laughable.


Seriously, the problem with your paladin is that it sucks. And the reason why it sucks is because you have no vision for the tacical utility that this class is supposed to actually enjoy. There's no synergy, no overarching concept. It's just a pile of abilities - and none of those abilities are meaningful or good.

Everything in this class is flavortext, the kinds of abilities that the famously bad "filler levels" article handed out. And you can't make a class like that if you expect it to accomplish anything.

Is this Paladin supposed to survive in a magical environment where Save or Dies are getting chucked in his direction? Because he doesn't do that. You could jack all his saves up by +5 and give him scaling Spell Resistance at first level and he still wouldn't do that.

Is this Paladin supposed to do meaningful burst damage? Because he doesn't do that. You could give him Sudden Strike progression and he still wouldn't do that.

Is this Paladin supposed to be a worthwhile caster? Because he isn't. You could give him Paladin Spellcasting starting at level one and he still wouldn't do that.

Is this Paladin supposed to be a healer? Because he doesn't do that....

This class writeup is way too long. And for all that, it's still a total failure at being useful. All that text, all those abilities, and it still isn't even a Rogue or even a Bard. There isn't a saving grace. There isn't any level of play where I would want one of these guys on the team.

Go back to the drawing board and decide what he's supposed to be doing. Defending? Give him defensive abilities. Real defensive abilities that actually make him live. Assaulting? Give him some all-out-attack abilities. Real attack powers that actually kill enemies.

Are you supposed to want a Paladin when facing one big monster? Enemy wizards? Hordes of minor foes? Right now you don't want one against any of that, but I doubt that's what you were going for.

And if you can't answer these questions, I can't help you.

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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165399483[/unixtime]]
  • Your Paladin Doesn't have Good Saves! I don't know how this hasn't sunk in yet, but this character seriously gets the saves of a Monk at best when he hits 2nd level. After that, it's all down hill. By level 12, the Cleric has better saves if he's seen at least 2 PrCs. Saves are a reactive ability, they don't make you win under any circumstances. Having a crazy crazy big saving throw isn't something that you can rely upon to advance the plot or kill your enemies.

Well first, the current save system is rather broken. You yourself suggest a fix for it in the Tome of War. Obviously the current system rewards multiclassing too much, but we already knew this. So chastizing a class for not ahering to an unbalanced mechanic is probably not good form.

Second, having really good saves is a damn good ability. We're not talking about one save, we're talking about all saves. As a PC, being an eggshell with a hammer is not a primary function. In fact, you function better when you try to get a good mix of defensive and offensive capabilities. There are a lot of creatures out there that throw save or die spells or have save or die abilities. Beholders, basilisks, medusa, bodaks, etc.

Having good saves is most certainly a major ability, it can literally be the difference between life and death. At high levels, there are TONS of save or dies being thrown around. Being able to resist those is a pretty nice advantage. I think you really underestimate the crazy saves paladins get at higher levels. Adding your cha to your saves in fact means that you can stack ability increase items, so a periapt of wisdom + a cloak of cha can give you a +3 bonus to saves nobody else is getting. Of course inherent bonuses make this even more obvious.

I just can't see how you can hold onto the idea that save or dies are the way of high level then discount really strong saves as a minor ability. Being able to block the high level kill method of choice is quite valuable if you ask me.


[*] Smite is usable less often than you can attack in a single round! At first level, you can pick up one attack from your spear and one attack normal and Smite can't keep up with that. And it will never keep up with you. That sucks. If Smite caused huge pillars of flame to come down and clear all enemies from the battlefield that might be excusable - but it doesn't. It's just a modest pile of whupass for many of your attacks on the first round of combat.

I think his smites are fairly fine, you're not supposed to be smiting on every single attack anyway. Getting a significant bonus to hit and damage is pretty useful. Yeah, it won't wipe the floor with your enemies on use alone, but it synergizes with every other melee based ability you have. That's pretty nice.

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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Catharz »

Vindication is really bad.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by RandomCasualty »

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1165481932[/unixtime]]Vindication is really bad.


yeah, that should at least have a duration of 1 round and apply to all attacks, if not a duration of several rounds.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Username17 »

Second, having really good saves is a damn good ability. We're not talking about one save, we're talking about all saves.


This Paladin doesn't have really good saves in all categories, he has one really good save: Fortitude. He is a melee combatant (encouraged to invest in Constitution), and he gets a Good Fort Save, and he gets an arbitrary bonus to Fort Saves that is equal to his level or his Cha modifier whichever is less. That's a great Fort save. But his Reflex and Will aren't great.

He is a heavy armor character who specializes in mounted combat. Dexterity is a dump stat. Wisdom only adds to the Save DC of his "spells" which we have to put in air quotes when discussing because they totally blow. Wisdom is a dump stat too. And he doesn't have a good Will or Reflex progression. In fact, at first level he's likely looking at a +1 or even +0 in both Reflex and Willpower. And while it gets better when Divine Grace kicks in, it never equals a monk in either category.

This Paladin has somewhat decent saves on average. His total bonuses are about equal to a Monk, but they are less distributed than a Monk's are. The points get shifted over to Fortitude leaving a noticable weakness in Willpower.

---

If your opponents kill one of your party members, you've essentially lost that battle. Having great saves is really good - but it doesn't make you win. Having one character who doesn't die when glared at by the Medusa is good, but you really would rather kill the Medusa in one less round than have one character survive even twice as long in the death zone.

Killing enemies is saving party members. Defensive abilities had better be able to save party members or they are selfish and not good. A character who is offensively anemic and has a good survivability is not a high priority enemy target. They are contributing to the party as much as the Rogue character who stays hidden during major conflicts.

This Paladin is a selfish and abnoxious character, and he doesn't even do that well. Two thumbs down.

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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Crissa »

abnoxious? Obnoxious?
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Catharz »

I do like that you improved the paladin's caster level. At least they're up to normal with one Karma bead. Not that the spellcasting is that great, but some of the spells are good enough to matter.

How about building the abilities of the Holy Avenger sword into the class? This includes area SR vs. evil, targeted Greater Dispel on attack, beating DR/Good, having a constant Holy enchantment.

You could even give them something like a choice between Evil Outsider or Undead Bane, or maybe give them as favored enemies.

A Hero Never Falls should be once a day if you use it. It's a 20th level ability, when many characters can be wearing contingent ressurrection-type spells.

Following these suggestions won't balance the class though...
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Caedrus »

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1165481932[/unixtime]]Vindication is really bad.


Point taken. I bumped it up to lasting the whole round (I don't want it to last longer because I want to keep smite feats generally at instantaneous or one round effects, that sort of thing, while Divine feats give the buffs), but it still seems rather lame. However, what if it was a prereq for something that let you do a hit like a Brilliant Energy weapon? Or maybe even a touch attack a la Wraith Strike?

Catharz at [unixtime wrote:1165556686[/unixtime]]I do like that you improved the paladin's caster level. At least they're up to normal with one Karma bead. Not that the spellcasting is that great, but some of the spells are good enough to matter.

How about building the abilities of the Holy Avenger sword into the class? This includes area SR vs. evil, targeted Greater Dispel on attack, beating DR/Good, having a constant Holy enchantment.

You could even give them something like a choice between Evil Outsider or Undead Bane, or maybe give them as favored enemies.

A Hero Never Falls should be once a day if you use it. It's a 20th level ability, when many characters can be wearing contingent ressurrection-type spells.

Following these suggestions won't balance the class though...


Hmmm, some good suggestions; building holy avenger and such abilities into the class is something I've seen done before. If anything, I think I would make it a specialization. It's not really something I wanted to go with for my fix.

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165508463[/unixtime]]
This Paladin doesn't have really good saves in all categories, he has one really good save: Fortitude. He is a melee combatant (encouraged to invest in Constitution), and he gets a Good Fort Save, and he gets an arbitrary bonus to Fort Saves that is equal to his level or his Cha modifier whichever is less. That's a great Fort save. But his Reflex and Will aren't great.


You're right. Anyways, I'm considering the suggestion on giving him the good Fort and Will saves and letting Charisma be a replacement instead of an addition on top of that.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by RandomCasualty »

FrankTrollman at [unixtime wrote:1165508463[/unixtime]]
If your opponents kill one of your party members, you've essentially lost that battle. Having great saves is really good - but it doesn't make you win. Having one character who doesn't die when glared at by the Medusa is good, but you really would rather kill the Medusa in one less round than have one character survive even twice as long in the death zone.

Killing enemies is saving party members. Defensive abilities had better be able to save party members or they are selfish and not good. A character who is offensively anemic and has a good survivability is not a high priority enemy target. They are contributing to the party as much as the Rogue character who stays hidden during major conflicts.



Yeah, offense is great, but it requires one thing that defense doesn't: winning initiative.

You can't have every character be an offensive specialist. If you do, then everyone is playing rocket launcher tag and sooner or later the PCs lose initiative and the eggshell with a hammer finally gets cracked. Also it makes the game rather boring to play if everyone is trying for the one shot kills paradigm. If the defensive specialist kills in one shot as easy as the offensive specialist, then there's really no differentiation between characters at all.

This isn't to say that a character can be all defense and no offense, it's just saying that he can be a balance as opposed to an eggshell with a hammer.

As the tank your goal is to soak stuff during the surprise rouind and during the time when your party has lost initiative. Now, sure, your offense isn't as great as the wizard, but that doesn't mean you wont' get attacked beacuse monsters may not know your offensive output. You don't run around with a big sign on your forehead saying "paladin". For all the monsters know, you could be a cleric.

Playing all offensive characters is a bad idea because a TPK can happen as easily as losing initiative to a beholder. At some point, someone in your party has to be geared towards survival.

In fact, if losing a PC is a thing you want to avoid, you're probably best playing as many paladins and high save characters as you can as opposed to eggshells with hammers. Because no matter how powerful your wizard's deathray he can still only cast it on his action.
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Re: The Rebalanced Paladin!

Post by Tokorona »

Except it's theoretically possible to build an offensive character who will be able to take a few blows before PK'd out. While I like the paladin class, it does have a problem with focus - that is, my character who was already lagging behind in offense when I used her in the old paladin adruptly LOST offensive capability when converted.

EDIT: Did some math wrong, mea culpa. Secondly, the secondary abilities.. didn't' help all that much, although I will admit she had low Wis and Cha
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