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The Obligatory Rules Thread, Take Two
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ubernoob
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

If we ban misquoting entirely, it would remove a relevant tool for discussion. That tool is used very effectively here. Now, that is a very specific form of argument where you demonstrate that the other person's argument is invalid because it is not specific to the subject at hand, but it is a relevant tool that I'd like to see able to be used.

Frank Trollman wrote:
While in general people posting replies to three or four people in a row instead of multiquoting in a single post is really annoying, it's not the major problem here. The major problem here is that Zinegata is trolling the boards with crap he admits is inane time wasting trolling. How is this not hard to figure out?

-Frank

This is pretty much 100% the issue. In the pathfinder thread it is 100% trolling. There is no content, no humor. Just trolling because Zine is butthurt about something or other. The issue is not the rules, but the fact that we have not banned a troll. Ban the troll and 100% of the problem will be solved.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ubernoob wrote:
If we ban misquoting entirely, it would remove a relevant tool for discussion. That tool is used very effectively here. Now, that is a very specific form of argument where you demonstrate that the other person's argument is invalid because it is not specific to the subject at hand, but it is a relevant tool that I'd like to see able to be used.
This. This is similar to what I mentioned with strike-through. So long as you make the edits obvious, and not something like:

joe wrote:
I'm a retard.


, then it shouldn't be a problem.
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Maj
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

ubernoob wrote:
This is pretty much 100% the issue. In the pathfinder thread it is 100% trolling. There is no content, no humor. Just trolling because Zine is butthurt about something or other.


While I think that Zinegata's posts were very high in signal and very lacking in noise, I would like to point out that if the Pathfinder thread had actually just devolved to people bitching about it and not posting constructively, that would also be against the rules a la the old mockery threads (BTW - that rule is not in the first post of this thread).
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

FWIW - I would personally be sad at losing the ability to intentionally misquote for effect via strikeout. While his thread shitting was annoying, there's an ignore button for that. I already have him on ignore and don't generally care about his content. What was more annoying was his 4 in a row posting that made that ignore setting less meaningful, and that's what I'd prefer to see dealt with.

A 2 consecutive post within 12 hour limit (excepting thread opening posts) seems like it would deal with that crap while avoiding the wave-style editing that Starmaker is concerned about (which is really hard to follow).
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Zinegata
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 1:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

I'm finding it amusing that once the discussion moved to junk posting, people are getting defensive over their own posting.

I'm not.

I believe in treating people accordingly. That's why I had serious replies to guys like Archmage, who did in fact post something smart.

However, I also made it quite clear that I was going to reply to junk posts with junk posts. And I can show quite clearly that Kaelik's post was entirely junk. For instance...

ubernoob wrote:
If we ban misquoting entirely, it would remove a relevant tool for discussion. That tool is used very effectively here.


Effectively? Not really. Ubernoob is, as always, merely justifying Kaelik's douchebaggery.

The point of my post, if you actually read it instead of raging first, is simple: Quality is subjective. That's why Pathfinder sells well.

Kaelik editted my post to say: Quality is subjective. That's why the Nazis got into power and killed the Jews.

Which is already pretty retarded, but then his conclusion is:

Quote:
Now can we stop pretending that a large number of people liking something makes it good?


How does that relate to anything I said at all? How does that overturn the fact that "Quality is subjective"? It doesn't. He, in fact, just repeated "Quality is subjective".

That's why I said it doesn't matter if Kaelik thinks it's good or not, and I could frankly care less about his (and ubernoob's) opinions. Not in a polite way of course, but you don't handle assholes with kiddie gloves.

In short, the truth is simple: Kaelik was picking a fight over nothing and used misquoting in a pretty stupid way. He wasn't misquoting me to add to the discussion. He was just engaging in pointless personal attacks.

So it's not a good example. It's an example of precisely why it's junk posting.

Thus, I'm totally fine with banning misquoting entirely. The thread was ripe with examples of how it's a stupid way to argue way before I started using it.

-----

Also, I will comment on how Tarkis was complaining about how I was posting "junk". And yet the moment we actually discuss getting rid of junk posting, he switches back to spamming.

Be honest and consistent. Because really, if the rules state that Zine can't misquote, then everyone shouldn't be able to misquote.

Otherwise you're just making it clear that this is a personal beef. Which is really what's going on between me and Kaelik. In which case, there's the ignore button, or telling the other person "I don't care for your opinion. Fuck off."


Last edited by Zinegata on Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:06 am; edited 2 times in total
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Kaelik
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zinegata wrote:
Otherwise you're just making it clear that this is a personal beef.


It's a personal beef that everyone who likes the gaming den has against someone who's explicit stated goal is to ruin the gaming den by being as big a douche as you can.

Of course you are in favor of rule X. You are always in favor of rule X. Because your specialty is to post twice as much as everyone else combined, being as big a douche as possible, and then, whenever anyone discusses preventing you from shitting all over TGD, you agree that rule X should be enforced on everyone. And then you move on to doing action Y twice as much as everyone else combined posts, and shitting on TGD in a new way, as yet unrestricted, hoping to create another rule to impose on people.

And you spelled out this exact strategy explicitly, as your goal to destroy TGD, because you hate us.

Yes, we all have you on ignore, but that stupid fucking screenshot where it goes:

Someone
You
You
You
You
Someone

That's what everyone has to see. And it's fucking stupid.

So yes, Uber, Myself, Frank, K, Robby, Vynomous, ect, all have a personal beef with you. Because anyone who shows up at my favorite gym and explains that his specific goal is to steal everything in sight slowly over time so the gym goes out of business is an asshole, and I have personal beef with them.

The only thing I'm waiting for is for you to wear out fbmf's patience, so we can move on to being a constructive forum. And everytime you try to prompt a new rule is a step in that direction, because fbmf is not the mod of every forum you like, and he doesn't like making rules, and he doesn't enforce the ones that exist unless it is because it's an actual problem.

Since you are the only actual problem, once you push this to end game, all the rules will dissipate in the wind (by which I mean, not be included in the next iteration of obligatory rules thread), because they will no longer serve a purpose.
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Zinegata
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Yes Kaelik. Continue to show that this is in fact just a stupid, personal feud because you think "Zine is out to destroy the Den".

Also, I don't really care about any of the people Kaelik posted. Most of them have me on ignore anyway, and aside from Frank and K none of those people you mentioned put out interesting content anyway (and I can read their stuff regardless), so that's a fine "live and let live" policy by me.

The people who I care about in the Den aren't in Kaelik's list. And I certainly don't shit post against them. If they have an issue with my behavior, then I'll change.

And we certainly won't do it via a public spectacle like what Kaelik is engaging in now.
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TarkisFlux
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Zine, there aren't any inconsistencies or personal issues in there. Do I need to dissect it for you? I said I don't want to ban misquoting, because I would actually miss that. And that there's an ignore button if you don't want to read what people are writing, like I don't with most of your words. I don't read most of your posts, though I will go back and read your posts in a thread if it appears that you're contributing to it in a meaningful way. Like this one actually. I then further said that what I found more annoying than your general posting, which I don't generally see because of said ignore option, was the fact that you still took up a big pile of screen real estate with your multi-post shit. And that your multi-post style is god damn annoying even with you on ignore. And that that was what I wanted to see dealt with, not the misquoting.

I don't give a shit that you misquoted people. Really, I don't, and it's not the sort of thing that I want to see banned. You can do it, Kaelik can do it, I can do it, whatever. Further, I don't have a personal problem with you. I don't know how you could construe "I don't want a guy i have on ignore filling a thread with his ignore window" as a personal problem with you. Get over yourself.

I finished with expressing a desire to see a 2 consecutive post within 12 hours limit, because double posts happen and that's fine. And I added that we should except thread starts from that rule so sourcebooks and projects still have a place. And that can apply to everyone and I'd be perfectly happy.
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Zinegata
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 2:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Tarkis->

Okay, that's cool. I misunderstood your intent. Sorry.
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RobbyPants
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

Kaelik wrote:
Yes, we all have you on ignore, but that stupid fucking screenshot where it goes:

Someone
You
You
You
You
Someone

That's what everyone has to see. And it's fucking stupid.

This screenshot:

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Zinegata
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

And like I said, perfectly willing to do this too:

Quote:
I think a general "don't post multiple posts consecutively" would resolve most problems that are being raised by innocent bystanders who are getting hit in the crossfire.

Instead "just edit your existing post and put all of the stuff there".


Problem solved.

There's the tl;dr issue and the misattributing issue of course. But I'm willing to make way for people raising valid concerns.


Last edited by Zinegata on Thu Nov 18, 2010 3:59 am; edited 1 time in total
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Josh_Kablack
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

fbmf wrote:
[The Great Fence Builder Speaks]
  • Something about limiting posts per page by a given user?


  • Bad idea

    Quote:

  • Something about posts on the same page within a given time limit?


  • Pain in the neck, but acceptable, provided that a start-of-thread exception is in place for game session journals, Tome-like projects and the like.

    I have to ask, would this be enforced via board coding somehow, or just the usual report-based moderation? I can see headaches with either.

    Quote:

  • Other suggestions?
    [/TGFBS]


  • Doubt this'll float, but Here's mine.
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    Zinegata
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Josh_Kablack wrote:
    Quote:

  • Other suggestions?
    [/TGFBS]


  • Doubt this'll float, but Here's mine.


    I approve any and all forms of gladiatorial combat to resolve disputes.

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    ubernoob
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Zinegata wrote:
    And like I said, perfectly willing to do this too:

    Quote:
    I think a general "don't post multiple posts consecutively" would resolve most problems that are being raised by innocent bystanders who are getting hit in the crossfire.

    Instead "just edit your existing post and put all of the stuff there".


    Problem solved.

    There's the tl;dr issue and the misattributing issue of course. But I'm willing to make way for people raising valid concerns.
    You are literally the only person I have seen on this board to ever post more than twice in succession outside of new project threads. You are also the only one to ever reply to more than one person with double posts. Fuck off. We don't need new rules because you are too stupid to make two extra keystrokes. Seriously, two extra keystrokes.

    Reply to two people (doublepost)
    1: Ctrl+click
    2: Click
    3: Write 1
    4: Click submit on the first window
    5: Close Window
    6: Write reply 2
    7: Click submit on the second window

    Reply like a person that is not retarded
    1: Ctrl+Click
    2: Click
    3: Ctrl+A
    4: Ctrl+V

    5: Close window
    6: Write Reply 1
    7: Ctrl+P
    8: Write Reply 2
    9: Click submit on the second window

    I have bolded the only steps that are not identical. 2 fucking keystokes. Two fucking keystrokes.
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    Zinegata
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Wow. Yet another complete waste of time from ubernoob.

    Again, the issue isn't how difficult it is to clump together posts. That's easy.

    The issue is misattribution and readability:

    Quote:
    The problem is that when I lump posts together, people start mixing things up. I might say "Your position is totally wrong" to Kaelik, but because it's lumped in the same posts Midnight might think I said his position is totally wrong.


    Quote:
    I don't know that addressing multiple quotes in one post would help because someone would pull out "tl;dr".


    So get smarter and stop wasting everyone's time.
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    TarkisFlux
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Those are not the issues. The issue is that you quad posted and a bunch of people reported it as spam. That is why we're here right now. Somewhere along the way extra shit got brought up, but they're not the root issue.
  • Readability is only a concern with regards to one of the proposed solutions to the problem, in that if you're responding to a bajillion people your post might tl;dr people. It's a very weak concern, since multi-posting appears to do the exact same thing anyway.
  • Misattribution was a suggestion that doesn't actually do anything to prevent the actual issue, quad posting bullshit, from occurring in the future. It may be worth considering on its own merits, but it has fuck all to do with what I understand the reasons for which fbmf said his reported posts were flagged.

    Ubernoob's suggestion that you just stop posting in your current format would actually solve the root issue and we could get back to yelling at / ignoring each other in less administrationey settings.
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    FrankTrollman
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    As far as multiposting goes, the following are very constructive:

    • Completed Projects (My own aWoD, Tome, and Ends of the Matrix all work this way)
    • Development logs
    • AARs


    All of those require multiple posts in a row. Often posted in rapid succession. Trolling is a problem, and Zinegata is a troll. But multiposting is not.

    Misquoting is sketchier, since to an extent every time you do it you are creating a straw man of someone else's argument. On the other hand, it can also be a very elegant method of conveying a formal substitution argument, which is an argument against the form of someone's argument rather than their content or conclusions. Also, it can be used for agreement or simple comedy. Losing it as a possibility would be painful, even though I rarely do it myself.

    Again, "misquoting" someone by replacing their text with "I'm stupid" or "Herp derp derp" or something is trolling. And Zinegata is a troll. It's not the specific act of putting up a quote window and then filling it with non-copypasta, it's posting gibbering noise whose explicit purpose is to spam the fucking board with contentless bullshit that offends people.

    Again and still, how is this hard to understand?

    -Frank
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    Zinegata
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    TarkisFlux wrote:
    Those are not the issues. The issue is that you quad posted and a bunch of people reported it as spam.


    Did you actually read the entire thread?

    See above solution. "I will lump everything in one post". That addresses the "spam" issue.

    And please note I am not the one who raised the "tl;dr" issue, which was raised after I said "I will lump everything in one post".

    Quote:
    Ubernoob's suggestion that you just stop posting in your current format would actually solve the root issue and we could get back to yelling at / ignoring each other in less administrationey settings.


    Don't be stupid.

    Ubernoob was not making a "suggestion". He was making a bunch of pointless personal attacks which boil down to "Zine is retarded", which he tried to legitimize by adding a how-to-guide on how to not post consecutively.

    Except, of course, nobody was contesting that it's hard to lump everything in one post. At all.

    So, really, either ubernoob didn't read the whole thread before pointlessly shooting his mouth off (again), or he's deliberately ignoring the above fact just to sling more mud at me.

    Either way, his post is a complete waste of time.
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    Josh_Kablack
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Quote:
    You are literally the only person I have seen on this board to ever post more than twice in succession outside of new project threads.


    Multi-posting also happens in some of the game logs in the Trenches, and sometimes it happens mid-thread.

    Personally I think this is legit multiposting. If someone has a thin summary of a week and nobody replies, then they are justified in making a new post the following week.

    If someone is trying to get caught up on a game log they are behind in, it should be fine to multipost something along the lines of "2 weeks ago: we fought the orcs and then ran back to town-more details if I get time" "1 week ago, we found out that the orcs were in cahoots with the town's mayor who was really a polymorphed Ogre Magi-more details if I get time" "This week; Great session and I want to get this down while it's still fresh! We find that the ogre mage is here as part of a larger ninja plot involving blah blah blah 1000 words follow " I think that's semi-legit, although I have to stop trying to do game logs I don't have the time to keep current.


    EDIT: AARs? confused
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    virgil
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Kaelik keeps referring to Zinegata having the stated goal of destroying the Den, and I almost wish I paid attention to some of the flame threads where this must've been said. Personally, I think it does everyone a disservice when you start having vendettas; be it Roy vs fail, or Kaelik vs Zinegata (or vice versa, hard to tell), etc.

    For those claiming the frustration still present when ignoring Zinegata, it's not like he's the first person that's caused the issue. While Elennsar didn't post multiple times in consecutive order, being every other post for multiple pages was just as bad (even with ignore).

    In retrospect, it seems a big contribution to this is the seeming need to respond to everything said by everyone, which gets really bad when there's a group arguing with you.

    EDIT: Oh, and trolling is bad too, but that's kind of an assumed disapproval; and I have trouble discerning the troll since I tend to get glass-eyed at internet arguments.
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    Last edited by virgil on Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:04 am; edited 1 time in total
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    Zinegata
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 5:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Josh_Kablack wrote:
    Multi-posting also happens in some of the game logs in the Trenches, and sometimes it happens mid-thread.


    Those are pretty much acceptable exceptions too.

    Edit:

    To Virgil->

    Yeah, I mentioned "dogpiling" earlier, which is very often a cause of multiple posting. And like I keep saying, if it annoys the innocent bystanders, I'll lump everything in one post.

    I have a small issue with it though (misattribution, which I'm willing to risk), and fbmf wasn't too hot about it either because he felt it may cause "tl;dr". Dunno if Robby's post addressed the concerns though.

    As for "destroying the Den", Kaelik's being pretty delusional. "Destroying the Den" is kinda different from "the Den should have more standards". But I guess for Kaelik that's the same thing.


    Last edited by Zinegata on Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:06 am; edited 1 time in total
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    FrankTrollman
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Josh_Kablack wrote:

    EDIT: AARs? confused


    AAR stands for "After Action Reports" and includes Game Logs and Event Logs and Convention Reviews and stuff.

    -Frank
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    ubernoob
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    Josh_Kablack wrote:
    If someone has a thin summary of a week and nobody replies, then they are justified in making a new post the following week.

    I was obviously unclear. When I meant in succession, I meant in succession as in did not even get up to go to the bathroom between posts. Sorry for the miscommunication.
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    Zinegata
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    FrankTrollman wrote:
    On the other hand, it can also be a very elegant method of conveying a formal substitution argument, which is an argument against the form of someone's argument rather than their content or conclusions. Also, it can be used for agreement or simple comedy. Losing it as a possibility would be painful, even though I rarely do it myself.


    Elegance is in the eye of the beholder.

    And criticizing the form of someone's argument without actually addressing their content or conclusions is called a dishonest criticism.

    That's like saying a well-written, five paragraph long explanation on how the D20 system works is invalid because there was a typo.
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    Koumei
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    PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote Add User to Ignore List

    I guess I'd probably vote for some kind of timer between posts. Sure, when you type a new project up in Word and then copy-pasta segments to post, that will mean you have to go do something else between segments, likewise having placeholder posts will pretty much be replaced with putting "DON'T FUCKING POST TIL I REMOVE THIS MESSAGE" at the end of the first post.

    On the other hand, you still would be able to multipost for a project, and it would at least reduce The Zinegata Effect.

    It doesn't help that, just like with ElenShadzar, plenty of people reply to the trollposts (with quoting) and we end up getting pages of argument and stupid anyway.
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