Improved Explosions [Metamagic]

[Koumei]

Yeah, if we go CL*SL then I approve. Particularly if you provide a list of a few metamagic feats you can apply (Heighten spell and Energy Substitution for instance. Maybe even things like Silent and Still. All you really want to rule out is Quicken at this point - even Twin doesn't hit them with double the bonus damage).

Also, a ruling on whether or not it can be used on spell slots converted into other damaging effects (I think it should - Sorcerers need SOMETHING) would be nice.

[Voss]

Actually, as written, it does a lot for sorcerers. (And a hell of a lot for warmages).

I still think it needs a cost. Empower and Maximize are sad pandas by comparison.
If its free, it should probably be spell level ^2, at best.

[CalibronXXX]

Empower and Maximize are useless when used as intended.

[Koumei]

Yeah, those two are only good when abused with Scorching Ray, using Arcane Thesis.

See: Lucky (-1), Empowered (+1), Maximised (+2), Twinned (+3), Acid Substituted (-1), Acid Admixtured (+3) Scorching Ray. A single level appropriate spell slot for 6 rays, each dealing 4d6+48 Acid damage. You even get to reroll two of those damage dice, if anyone cares.

Heck, find another stupid +0 MM feat and you could tack on Split Ray to get another two rays.

Unless abused, those feats are worthless.

[Jacob_Orlove]

They're pretty good for Artificers, but that's again hideous abuse that in no way resembles their intended function.

Cityscape had at least one, possibly several, awful +0 MM feats, as I recall.

[Koumei]

I bet it did. Other than that, you have the ones created by the OotS author, and you could argue that it's possible to Heighten a spell by 0 levels (likewise Piercing +0). Or load up on Energy Substitutions and then upgrade to Admixtures... you're basically limited by your feats.

[Voss]

Psst, Koumei, Arcane Thesis doesn't drop the metamagic level adjustment below +0.

In any case, the suckage of Empower and Maximize doesn't mean that a feat the gives considerable (if not excessive) benefit should be free. At that point, you might as well make it a universal rule and not bother with the feat at all.

[Koumei]

I wouldn't even be bothered by it being a universal rule, to tell the truth. Fireball is one of those things that people come to D&D expecting to be awesome (especially if they saw the anime Slayers before playing D&D, as I did). If it is awesome right out of the box, then we might just be bypassing the problem completely.

As for Arcane Thesis, you're talking about post-errata. Pre-errata you could totally do it. Heck, depending on the wording, if you add the bigger ones first, you might still be able to get away with it, based on whether it says "You can't reduce a metamagic feat's cost below zero" or "You can't reduce the spell below it's original level."

[CalibronXXX]

1192775706[/unixtime]]In any case, the suckage of Empower and Maximize doesn't mean that a feat the gives considerable (if not excessive) benefit should be free. At that point, you might as well make it a universal rule and not bother with the feat at all.

In any case, the only thing you need to look at is wether or not this ability is worth one of the handful of feats you get over the course over your charcter's career. Aside from looking out for unintedned synergies that is the only consideration that matters.

[Voss]

And since the answer is 'Of course it is, you'd be an idiot to consider anything else, even if you don't plan on specializing in damaging spells', it strikes me as a problematic addition to a character's feat options.

It isn't great at first level, but its damn good at 6th, and almost mandatory at 9+. Odds are, out of your average 4 encounters per day, you'll hit one or two at least that you can completely obliterate with acid splash. Why would you not take it, other than out of 'RP considerations' or deliberate self-gimping?

[CalibronXXX]

It's been shown that the original and and revised versions were too powerful. I was talking about my version, the one that ties it to spell level, so that in order to get level appropriate damage you actually have to use level appropriate spells; even at level 20 acid-slpash'd only get you...actually you'd get nothing but the original 1d3 since acid splash is a 0 level spell, Magic Missle'd only get you five missiles of 1d4+21 with the extra 20 damage only applying once per target though.

[Voss]

Ah. In that case it sounds about right.
Its more or less the Warmage Edge done in a way that isn't totally stupid.

[JonSetanta]

Right, Warmage Edge is just shit at every level but the earliest one it's gained at.

Koumei's points about combining this with other MM feats is inspiring; I need to change this so that it CAN be used with those and more, yet not with Quicken.

Perhaps the following:
~ apply only to spells that could be affected by Energy Admixture
~ as stated, CL*SL bonus damage
~ count bonus damage as part of the spells original damage, so that Ref (negated) and similar will just ignore the extra, rather than "you still take the damage" on a successful save
~ adding this feat to a spell increases casting time to a full-round action if shorter casting time than that (overrides the weird rule that Sorcs and spontaneous casters cast slower when using MM feats on spells) ; maybe this can avoid the need to prevent MM feat synergy and keep the +0 spell level adjustment. I'd like to avoid SL+.

[Voss]

Uh... what?
A full round action is what sorcerers are saddled with anyway.

[JonSetanta]

Hmm. I've been pondering this off and on..
And have come to the opinion that the only way to check which is better (my original progression, or 'Calibron's edition' of SLxCL) is to playtest it. I'll bring this idea up in whichever next session I participate in and write results here, if anything is tested. If.

Also, what does everyone think about, say, an SL+1 or +2 to this feat? Could the "do not apply any other Metamagic" restriction be removed with that change?