Betrayal in a setting...

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virgil
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Betrayal in a setting...

Post by virgil »

I'm contemplating making a bit of variance in my campaign setting. 'Hell' doesn't really work in your standard D&D setting when there are actual gods of evil that will reward you for being evil, so I was trying to think of a way to still have an area of punishment and still allow for warring faiths where one side could be deemed as 'evil'.

I then thought of something. What if I made there be a 'Hell' (afterlife of suffering), but the only sin that you can committ that sends you there is betrayal. If you ascribe to a certain faith, you get rewarded, but if you betray your faith (even if it's a baby-eating cult) then even that would count as sufficient betrayal to send you to an afterlife of punishment.

The option for salvation could still be there, where both parties forgive the betrayal (the victim forgives the traitor, and the traitor forgives himself).

This is only a seed of something, but I think it has the potential for growth. The only problem is for a god of deception, which inherently creates issues as I don't see how following such a faith could help you without nullifying the point in actually having a 'hell' you would go to.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Brobdingnagian »

It's one thing to say you belong to a certain belief. It's another thing to be part of that belief.

For instance, an adventurer funds a city. The city, under the adventurer's guidance, becomes the most prosperous city in the world. Eventually, it grows to a nation, and finally, that nation conquers the world. All this happens in the adventurer's lifetime. His people are extremely happy. They have no hunger, they have no war, they have no slavery, and they have no fear. A utopian world where everyone prospers, all because of the man at the top doing what's best for everyone. Finally, the adventurer dies.

He's confronted by an avatar of his deity. His deity is Neutral Evil, as is the adventurer himself.

"You brought peace to the world. You did good for all. How could we possibly consider you a petitioner for evil?"

"Well, I conquered the world, didn't I? Not a person there that wouldn't lay down their life for me if I asked."

Being NE is fun.
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Judging__Eagle
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Judging__Eagle »

Carceri exists for 'betrayals' or 'failures'.

Read Tome of Fiends or the Planes section in your DMG.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Catharz »

When a mortal dies, its soul can go any of a number of places. It can get trapped in a thinuan ring. It can be bound to the dead creature's body via necromancy. It can hang out in the ethereal plane as a ghost. It can even make it all the way to the Outer planes...
If it gets there, it's processed somehow. Maybe by the Celestial/Infernal Beurocracy.

It's processed according to the soul pacts a mortal has made. Soul
pacts generally take two forms.
The first is basically a 'soul trust.' Your soul becomes the property
of a trusted individual. This type of pact is implicit in most religions:
When you die, your soul goes to your god or pantheon. Watch out:
If you made your power angry, you may be in for an eternity of torture.
The second is a 'soul debt.' It's exactly the same, except you probably
don't trust the person who gets to own your soul.


Where it gets interesting: If the mortal has more than one outstanding soul pacts, all claimants must appear in Infernal/Celestial court to contest their claims. Generally, such claims are settled. If a power wants the soul of a devout worshiper who had an unfortunate run-in with a soul merchant, the power will offer something of value to the merchant and both sides will part happily.
If arbitration fails, the soul remains in Limbo until a decision is reached by the court.

Mortals who have made no soul pact are, by default, the property of the courts. They work in lower-level positions keeping the system running (secretaries, janitors, etc). This is not the same as a mortal who owns its own soul. Such a mortal is simply led out of the outside the Building/plane, and left to fend for itself.

At any time, soul owned by the beurocracy may be claimed (including by itself). If such a claim is successfuly defended (and no court-appointed lawyers), the soul's ownership is handed over.



Basically, there's no one 'Hell,' but if you betray a god, there's a good chance that the god will claim your soul and then have you tortured for all eternity. Also, if you're both ignorant and atheist you'll probably end up in beurocratic hell.
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virgil
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by virgil »

I am fully aware of how the current cosmology works (major Planescape fan), so reiterating what I know doesn't really help me. I admit I might have rambled a bit there.

I'm contemplating making my setting's cosmology such that betrayal sends you to an afterlife of punishment, and your 'heaven' is whatever your god offers (who requires you follow his tenets or else you betrayed your faith). But there are finer points I keep thinking I'm missing and was wanting help with.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Catharz »

Sorry, just describing a system I like, seemed similar to what you were doing. Also, it isn't "how the current cosmology works." ;)
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virgil
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by virgil »

Reading your thing a bit more in-depth, I apologize for sounding snarky at you Catharz. I was more directing it at Judging_Eagle to begin with.

Yours is actually an interesting idea/variant and still dealing with a Planescape-like cosmology, just not quite what I'm looking for as the setting I'm considering isn't really going to have the Great Wheel and the entire pantheon will more or less be united in background.

I was contemplating there being a single ruler of Hell, some god that was horribly betrayed such that the primary god granted them stewardship since they would understand betrayal (and be able to spot it readily to take them in to their realm).

The only problem is contemplating how to have a god like Loki be worshipped, as his general portfolio pretty much puts you into Hell if you follow him much. Perchance if there aren't many actual worshippers except from those that have already betrayed and figure they've got nothing left to lose, or maybe those that only look to him as one would a saint and look to him for deception/trickery without actually going into Hell-worthy betrayal.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Catharz »

virgileso at [unixtime wrote:1178433553[/unixtime]]
The only problem is contemplating how to have a god like Loki be worshipped, as his general portfolio pretty much puts you into Hell if you follow him much. Perchance if there aren't many actual worshippers except from those that have already betrayed and figure they've got nothing left to lose, or maybe those that only look to him as one would a saint and look to him for deception/trickery without actually going into Hell-worthy betrayal.

Gods are built on double standards. Example: the god of slaughter gets mad if you massacre his followers.

So following Loki is fine as long as you only mess with the other aesir/giants/vanir.
Except Loki was banished from Valhalla, so you'll end up in Niflheim, but you'll have a much better time of it than the god-betrayers because (1) Loki's part of Niflheim isn't in Hel, and (2) Loki's daughter rules the whole place.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Brobdingnagian »

As I pointed out beforehand (if not necessarily very clearly), if you worship a god of trickery, deception, or betrayal, he expects you to do and will reward you for doing all that crap, just not to him. That'd make him mad.
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virgil
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by virgil »

Just letting followers of Loki go to his realm of reward is counter to my entire point in this exercise. Right now, that line of thought makes ALL morality ultimately pointless, because you can just worship whichever god accepts your actions and get rewarded. I want some kind of truly objective line of behavior that will send you to Hell, no matter who you worship.

Bah, screw it. I'll just have him be a dangerous entity that's only worshipped by the easily deceived or those with nothing left to gain, because even if you worship Loki, you still go to Hell if you betray (afterlife isn't his domain, so he can't stop the steward of Hell from claiming it). This is ignoring the whole soul market, as just capturing them in gems for other uses is still possible (but not really an 'afterlife').

You can still be evil, as the warring tribes of orcs aren't expected to treat you nice, so they're not really betraying you by eating your family.

I'll probably have to expect the guideline that you have to build up a certain level of trust before you can break it enough to count as betrayal. I suspect that there's likely some level of racial trust that's expected (elves don't kill children, orcs don't save humans over their own kind, or something like that), but that would depend on the culture/religion the character & possible victim were raised in.
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Cielingcat »

The steward of Hel would be his daughter, though.
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virgil
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by virgil »

And I bet he betrayed her something fierce, especially knowing Loki, so why would Hel have any particular loyalty to him by this point?
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Re: Betrayal in a setting...

Post by Brobdingnagian »

"You lied to me!"

"I lie to everyone. What makes you so special?"

"I'm your sister!"

"That just makes you more gullible."

- The Mummy
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