Please take a look at this class

[Catharz]

That seems a little too good...

[Iaimeki]

This depends, honestly, on what else is available. My rune knight is better than core wizard, obviously. I'm pretty sure it's worse than incantatrix. In between, it's competing against against classes like master specialist, shadowcraft mage, and the like.

It's worth noting that several of the class's abilities require you to stab spellcasters in the face. As far as straight-up combat ability is concerned, by 10th level, you get medium armor (mithral fullplate) and shields, 5d4+5d8 hit points (average: 5d6, but you get shafted on the first level bonus), and +7 BAB. This puts you not far behind a cleric, but in general I'd expect the cleric spell list/abilities are better at facestabbing; and the real thing is, if you're stabbing people in the face with full arcane spellcasting, you're almost certainly doing something wrong. Mage Slayer and runic strike both require you to be next to a caster, which is at least possible since you're another caster. Mage Slayer is pretty weak in general, even RoW's version, unless you have other abilities assisting it. Runic strike means you're spending your action on attacks, not casting spells, and is hopefully powerful enough to justify that. (Remember, it has to compete with throwing spells that will probably make your enemies dead.) Spell resistance, as usual, isn't that great for PCs.

I'm most worried about the runic ability itself. As written, it allows a rune knight to make all other spellcasting harder, while not impeding her own spellcasting at all. It might be powerful enough to switch to a standard action, but I'm not sure--thoughts? Basically, is it worth a standard action (which could be casting a save-or-be-crippled that will block enemy spellcasting in any event) to make spellcasting hard? I'm inclined to think not, but I might be convinced otherwise.

[Catharz]

The Rune Knight stacks with Incantatrix just fine.

Wielding a nice reach weapon you can shut down enemy spellcasting without really investing much in the way of resources (although 5 class levels is an investment, it's 5 caster levels which are flat-out better than wizard). Spend a move action to 'freely' counterspell and keep yourself constantly recharged. If an enemy spellcaster foolishly tries to cast within your reach (10-15' probably) you take an AoO and recharge your highest spells (Runic Strike).

Assuming you're fighting a caster who focuses on SoDs, you can keep casting your highest-level spells all combat and totally massacre the opposition.

IMO the PrC you've written is almost good enough to not need spellcasting advancement at all. If you want to keep the abilities as strong as they are, it would make sense to try to enforce crappy multiclassing a la boneblade raper.

That said, I'm not very skilled at designing balanced classes myself, so my advice is mostly of the destructive sort

[Iaimeki]

1173686305[/unixtime]]The Rune Knight stacks with Incantatrix just fine.

By the time you've taken four levels of one and five of the other, you're to the point where wizards need to be taking their high-level PrCs, and where high-level wizard combat has gone crazy. (Multiple contingencies from contingency and Craft Contingent Spell, shaped AMFs, and action novas are pretty much par for the course.)

1173686305[/unixtime]]Wielding a nice reach weapon you can shut down enemy spellcasting without really investing much in the way of resources (although 5 class levels is an investment, it's 5 caster levels which are flat-out better than wizard). Spend a move action to 'freely' counterspell and keep yourself constantly recharged. If an enemy spellcaster foolishly tries to cast within your reach (10-15' probably) you take an AoO and recharge your highest spells (Runic Strike).

The wording of the ability ("using a sword or similar bladed weapon") is intended to prevent the use of reach weapons (which are usually spears or the ever-present spiked chain). You can still make yourself big and do it that way, of course, but that's usually more of an investment.

1173686305[/unixtime]]
IMO the PrC you've written is almost good enough to not need spellcasting advancement at all. If you want to keep the abilities as strong as they are, it would make sense to try to enforce crappy multiclassing a la boneblade raper.

This might work. I dithered on this question, because any PrC like this is essentially earning interest on power (you deposit power early on by ganking your caster level, then theoretically recoup it in the PrC). Being a level behind on spells really hurts.

[Iaimeki]

I edited original version of my PrC to require proficiencies that normally cost a caster level, barring typical gish cheese.

[Catharz]

I wasn't totaly serious about forcing shitty multiclassing. If you want it to cost a caster level, you could do it the fool-proof way. So long as you're giving something good enough in return, retarding the character's spellcasting at first level could work.

Then again, if somebody wants to play a 'rune knight' they probably want to do it starting at first level, in which case the Fighter1/Wizard 4 should work.

Or you could just make it a base class like a cross between the Knight and the Conduit (granting some kind of bullshit spellcasting to advance from level 10 if you like).

[Iaimeki]

Well, I made some more changes.

I restored full casting, because Celes, in FF6, is more or less a full spellcaster. I also nerfed runic to require a standard action: hopefully, being able to seriously hamper spellcasting in the nearby area is enough so that it's worth doing in place of casting spells yourself. Everything else is pretty much the same. The basic idea is that getting some anticaster abilities and access to better personal defenses is worth giving up abilities that directly help your own spellcasting.

[Leress]

I don't want to create new topics on each new class so here is the Pugilist

http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=810869

[Username17]

The Pugilist is level appropriate and capable of contributing adequately to his party at level 2. Before and after that, he's a piece of shit.

People seem to think that having a character gain the ability "almost has equipment" is something that's good or even passable. It's not.

The ability to "nearly have studded leather" and "kindof have a short sword" doesn't make you a decent first level character. A decent first level character has a chain shirt, a longsword, and a large wooden shield. Basic fighters at first level way outfight this Pugilist fvcker.

But right there at second level, someone attacks you and you can attack back for uh... 2d6 + Strength bonus. That's almost as good as having a greatsword right there. And if you're almost as good as someone who has a greatsword, you can participate in 2nd level encounters. Not really well or anything, but like at all - something we honestly cannot say for the character at any later level.

-Username17

[Catharz]

There's some weirdness with monk/pugilists. For example, every wise monk takes a level of pugilist, because monk and pugilist levels don't stack for determining AC bonus, and so a Pug/Mnk gets wisdom to AC twice.

Pugilists need to be 'wise.' There's already a 'wise unarmed fighter' class, and that's cleric with a level of monk (or a monk's belt).


A person making a "pugilist" class should first discard all of the ideas that come with the monk, and then come up with a basic explanation (sans mechanics) of what a pugilist can do. A quick story to put in the class intro might help.
Then write up a set of mechanics so that the pugilist can accomplish everything you want them to be able to do at the appropriate level.
Then do the 'acid test' to make sure that they're capable of contributing and not overpowered.

Porting nonfunctional abilities from other classes and coming up with forgettable game-slowing abilities like Resistance 1/everything at 5th level is probably not the way to go...

[Edit]I just scanned through the thread and noticed all the people calling it 'overpowered for a base class' (everyone knows base classes are intended to be weaker than PrCs) because 'it gives full BAB and two good saves.'

There should really be two official versions of D&D: 'Munchkin' and 'Fucktard.' The first assumes you Min/Max to the hilt, the second assumes you're a a total fucking idiot who can't quite grasp the purpose of "rules" in a game.[/Edit]

[Leress]

I feel bad because I told the poster to put an ability that cause a daze effect and then the poster comes up with Rhythmic Assault

[Leress]

Okay here is a class I did

Yes, I suck at flavor text

Brew master

Code: Select all

[br]Level  Special                                  Spellcasting[br]1 Brewer's Way, Quicker Potions	       +1 to spell casting level[br]2 Special Blend, Potion Focus	       +1 to spell casting level[br]3 Empower Potion	               +1 to spell casting level[br]

Hit Die: d6
BAB: Poor
Fort: Poor Reflex: Poor Will: Good

Requirements
Feats: Brew Potion
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks, Concentration 3 ranks

Class Skills
Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (religion, arcana), Profession, Search, Spellcraft

Skill points at each level 2+Int

Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: No new

Brewer's Way (Ex): A brewmaster gains a bonus to Concentration and Spellcraft equal to her class level. She is also able to automatically identify potions as a free action

Potion Focus (Ex): A brewmaster gains the ability to enhance the benefits of a potion she creates. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Brewmaster's class level +1. When creating a potion you may add one of the following enhancement to that potion.

• 
  
• increase the enchantment bonus by 1
  
• increase the Save DC by 2
  
• increase the enhantment bonus to skills by 5
  

Empower Potion (Ex): By adding 25gp to the base price you may increase all variable and numeric effects of an empowered potion are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are potion without random variables. This may only be applied once to any potion.

Special Blend (Sp):At 2nd level the Brewmaster may add an additional, 0-level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs an additional 5 xp to the creation cost. At 3rd level the Brewmaster may add an addition, 1st level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs and additional 20 xp to the creation cost. The spells added have the same caster level as the one used to create the potion.


Quicker Potions (Ex): At 1st level it now only takes half the time for a Brewmaster to make a potion. At 3rd level it only takes a fourth of the time.


Critique away...

[the_taken]

What type of 0-level spells would you add to a potion? Any potion at all?

[Brobdingnagian]

Acid splash?

[Judging__Eagle]

I now want to make Empowered Potions of Inflict Serious Wounds. ...D:

[Brobdingnagian]

Empowered ISW with an added Acid Splash for Troll-fighting?

[Judging__Eagle]

1175414519[/unixtime]]Empowered ISW with an added Acid Splash for Troll-fighting?

No, ISW, to give people to drink. ...D:<

[Brobdingnagian]

You're a horrible, horrible person. I guess that's why you're such a good DM.

[Leress]

Seriously what do you people think of the class.

[Catharz]

1175233041[/unixtime]]Okay here is a class I did

Yes, I suck at flavor text

Brew master

Code: Select all

[br]Level  Special                                  Spellcasting[br]1 Brewer's Way, Quicker Potions	       +1 to spell casting level[br]2 Special Blend, Potion Focus	       +1 to spell casting level[br]3 Empower Potion	               +1 to spell casting level[br]

Hit Die: d6
BAB: Poor
Fort: Poor Reflex: Poor Will: Good

Ok.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Requirements
Feats: Brew Potion
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks, Concentration 3 ranks

Craft (alchemy), or just (craft)? Profession (Brewer)? I dunno.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Class Skills
Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (religion, arcana), Profession, Search, Spellcraft

Knowledge (nature, maybe dungeoneering) -- Know your ingredients.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Skill points at each level 2+Int

Low, but normal.

1175233041[/unixtime]]
Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: No new

Brewer's Way (Ex): A brewmaster gains a bonus to Concentration and Spellcraft equal to her class level. She is also able to automatically identify potions as a free action

Er, why the bonus to checks?

1175233041[/unixtime]]Potion Focus (Ex): A brewmaster gains the ability to enhance the benefits of a potion she creates. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Brewmaster's class level +1. When creating a potion you may add one of the following enhancement to that potion.

• 
  
• increase the enchantment bonus by 1
  
• increase the Save DC by 2
  
• increase the enhantment bonus to skills by 5
  

Why is it per day? Does it apply both when you craft and when you use it? Can other people benefit from crafting enhancements?

1175233041[/unixtime]]Empower Potion (Ex): By adding 25gp to the base price you may increase all variable and numeric effects of an empowered potion are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are potion without random variables. This may only be applied once to any potion.

The text needs to be cleared up. Less kopipe.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Special Blend (Sp):At 2nd level the Brewmaster may add an additional, 0-level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs an additional 5 xp to the creation cost. At 3rd level the Brewmaster may add an addition, 1st level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs and additional 20 xp to the creation cost. The spells added have the same caster level as the one used to create the potion.

How about just letting them add another spell, normal XP cost, normal spell level limits?

1175233041[/unixtime]]Quicker Potions (Ex): At 1st level it now only takes half the time for a Brewmaster to make a potion. At 3rd level it only takes a fourth of the time.

Ok.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Critique away...

Yep

[the_taken]

While you guys are poking the potion maker, I'm submitting this class for analysis: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 9[br][br]I stated that it was about as effective as a monk in melee and slightly superior to a warlock at blasting. I think I was wrong with that.

[Brobdingnagian]

Woot! Sailor Mars!

...

I'm more a fan of Sailor Venus, myself, but whatever.

[Leress]

1175565614[/unixtime]]

1175233041[/unixtime]]Requirements
Feats: Brew Potion
Skills: Spellcraft 6 ranks, Concentration 3 ranks

Craft (alchemy), or just (craft)? Profession (Brewer)? I dunno.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Class Skills
Appraise, Concentration, Craft, Heal, Knowledge (religion, arcana), Profession, Search, Spellcraft

Knowledge (nature, maybe dungeoneering) -- Know your ingredients.

Sorry, this comes from not putting flavor text to the class. This should be good a making magical potions. I should most likely expand it to non-magical ones.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Skill points at each level 2+Int

Low, but normal.

Since I had so few skills I thought this would be enough, If I increase the skill number I would add more skill points.

1175233041[/unixtime]]
Features
Weapon and Armor Proficiency: No new

Brewer's Way (Ex): A brewmaster gains a bonus to Concentration and Spellcraft equal to her class level. She is also able to automatically identify potions as a free action

Er, why the bonus to checks?

I wanted to have connection to making magical potions, and giving the class these seems to work to my image of the class. Knowing the magic that is used to make the potions, and the dedication to make them more efficiently.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Potion Focus (Ex): A brewmaster gains the ability to enhance the benefits of a potion she creates. This ability can be used a number of times per day equal to the Brewmaster's class level +1. When creating a potion you may add one of the following enhancement to that potion.

• 
  
• increase the enchantment bonus by 1
  
• increase the Save DC by 2
  
• increase the enhantment bonus to skills by 5
  

Why is it per day? Does it apply both when you craft and when you use it? Can other people benefit from crafting enhancements?

Sorry forgot to edit that out, the times per day were when it was a Supernatural ability.
It only applies when you craft the potion.
Umm, they can benefit from drinking the potion made by the brewmaster.

1175233041[/unixtime]]Empower Potion (Ex): By adding 25gp to the base price you may increase all variable and numeric effects of an empowered potion are increased by one-half. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are potion without random variables. This may only be applied once to any potion.

The text needs to be cleared up. Less kopipe.

Okay, I took the wording straight from Empower Spell (sans the 25gp to base price). Exactly what need to be cleared up?

1175233041[/unixtime]]Special Blend (Sp):At 2nd level the Brewmaster may add an additional, 0-level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs an additional 5 xp to the creation cost. At 3rd level the Brewmaster may add an addition, 1st level, spell effect to a potion at the time of creation. This costs and additional 20 xp to the creation cost. The spells added have the same caster level as the one used to create the potion.

How about just letting them add another spell, normal XP cost, normal spell level limits?

That is a better idea, since I just saw a glaring abuse of this ability (True strike ) I will change it to that, since that seems to be simpler and more flexible.

Thanks for the critique.

[Username17]

1175581197[/unixtime]]While you guys are poking the potion maker, I'm submitting this class for analysis: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p ... 9[br][br]I stated that it was about as effective as a monk in melee and slightly superior to a warlock at blasting. I think I was wrong with that.

I honestly cannot fault people for wanting to write rules for Sailor Scouts. Heck, when I'm not dressed in orange, I dress like this:



And yes, I've written up a Sailor Senshi tradition for Shadowrun Here. So I'm in no position to complain from a flavor standpoint.

---

From a rules standpoint, it's basically all wrong. Once again, the ability to punch people for 1d6 of damage doesn't make you good at first level when even NPC commoners can get up in the morning with a d8 on their morningstars.

I see what they were going for, but honestly they just didn't bring the power in the way that the power needed to be brought. If you can only think of five abilities for a class - make it five levels long. Seriously, if I'm going to throw down as a Senshi of Mercury I want to be throwing down illusions and detection spells from level 1. Because a regular old Wizard is aactually totally doing that.

-Username17

[the_taken]

Thanks, Frank.